Talk:Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses

Thomas Daniels as a source

The section "Armageddon Immediately Before Us" 1925-1966" includes among its sources cited a lengthy paper at the Catholic forum website by Thomas Daniels; "Historical Idealism and Jehovah's Witnesses: A Critical Analysis of How They Present Their History". Anyone know who this person is and whether he is a reliable source? LTSally (talk) 12:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

More to add

Eschatology in theology is not only what is expected to take place in the last days, but the general conclusion of the world till the final judgement. So, eschatology includes the millenium.--Vassilis78 (talk) 07:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

This article needs an overhaul

This article goes on and on about supposed changes to our eschatology, but never talks about the Millenium, Paradise, etc. Who else thinks it needs an overhaul? StayAwakeStandFirmGrowMighty (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Please remember to add your comments to the bottom of the page, not the top. I agree that the History section is too long compared with the overall length of the article and since eschatology deals with ultimate destiny and the theology of death and beyond, there is certainly scope to expand on that. I'm intrigued, though, by your reference to "supposed" changes to the Watch Tower eschatology. Are you doubting that those doctrinal changes took place? LTSally (talk) 07:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

By all means, please feel free to add information about any relevant topics not yet covered. This and other JW articles would benefit from more regular editors. If you believe the article contains "supposed" changes in doctrine which in fact did not happen, please discuss.(By the way, new topics go at the bottom of Talk pages.)--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I think some of the changes might be off, I would have to look into it more. Many are true, though. I will improve as I can find the time. How does one go about shortening the article? I mean, it's all sourced and everything, but is way too detailed. I agree it can be discussed somewhat, but should be no longer than an expanded 'current beliefs' section. StayAwakeStandFirmGrowMighty (talk) 02:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I would need to consider the article more closely again to comment on specifics. But in general the article seems fairly well sourced. If there is a lot of well sourced detail in a Wikipedia article, it is sometimes appropriate to split an article into two or more separate articles. However, given the content of this particular article, I'm not sure that would be suitable. Insofar as being 'no longer than an expanded 'current beliefs', the development of JW eschatology is very important to this article, so I'm not sure the article should lose the history element - and definitely not unless the information is moved to a separate article rather than simply removed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

I added the neutrality tag to this article because I noticed several statements sourced by Crisis of Conscience and other books by ex-member Raymond Franz. He is not a reliable source, at least not in the way he is being used here, as his books deal entirely with attacks on the religion. Source these statements with official Watchtower information or historical records or remove them. --Iron Chef (talk) 19:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Out of 183 citations currently in the article, there are four statements that cite Franz as its source. On that basis you have tagged the entire article as breaching Wikipedia's NPOV rules, which is ludicrous. By far the greatest source of material for this article is official Watch Tower publications, That, in turn, resulted in a tag being placed on the article in 2008 asking for more sources other than WTS publications, which are classified as a primary source, ie, one connected with the subject of the article. Your comment that Franz's books "deal entirely with attacks on the religion" is not true and indicates you have not read either book. Franz is acceptable on Wikipedia as a reliable source. I will remove the tag. BlackCab (talk) 03:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I have readded as the NPOV is indeed needed. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 05:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Would you care to discuss your reaaons for this, or will this prompt another burst of obscenities from you? BlackCab (talk) 05:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Fuck no I have no problems discussing it. Unfortunately Ray Franz being used as a primary source is basically making this a WP:COATRACK issue. It's easoer to leave a tag that denotes you disagree with the nuetraility and so do others here. Pretty simple really. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 05:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

What is being disputed? The statements about Franz have already been reworded to make it clear they are Franz's claims. If there is nothing else being disputed, the tags should be removed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok if what you say is true then this sentence which is sourced to Franz is attributed as his viewpoint. Read this and tell me it says anything about Franz

What is your point? A particular point being supported by something Franz wrote doesn't automatically make that point false. Are you contesting any particular point on its own merits, or do you just not like anything Franz writes on 'principle'?--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

"The religion's doctrines surrounding 1914 are the legacy of a series of emphatic claims regarding the years 1799, 1874, 1878, 1914, 1918 and 1925 made by Watch Tower Society founder Charles Taze Russell and the organization's publications between 1879 and 1924. Claims by the religion about the significance of those years, including the presence of Jesus Christ, the beginning of the "last days", the destruction of worldly governments and the earthly resurrection of Jewish patriarchs, were successively abandoned as the years passed without the fulfilment of those expectations."

This is source number four, I don't see where this is being denoted that it is from Franz in the article.. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The statement is drawn from Franz's discussion around page 184 of their successive abandonment of the dates they identified as being part of God's apocalyptic calendar and their eventual arrival at 1914 as the pivotal date. You ask "Read this and tell me it says anything about Franz". The article isn't supposed to tell you anything about Franz. It uses the information he supplies to explain more about the subject of the article. That information is therefore a secondary source, from which Wikipedia draws most of its information. BlackCab (talk) 21:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

A secondary source which is unreliable and biased. It'd be like adding a line in the Meat article about the health benefits of eating beef, sourced by the CEO of Tyson. --Iron Chef (talk) 00:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be shifting position. First you want the statement to say something about Franz, then you decide that presumably on the basis of who he was (a defector from and later critic of the religion), his statement is unreliable. So back to basics. His book is used as a source for the following statement about the signifiance of the years 1799, 1874, 1878, 1914, 1918 and 1925: Claims by the religion about the significance of those years, including the presence of Jesus Christ, the beginning of the "last days", the destruction of worldly governments and the earthly resurrection of Jewish patriarchs, were successively abandoned as the years passed without the fulfilment of those expectations. Are arguing that the Watch Tower Society claims about the significance of those years were not abandoned? Does the society still hold the same views about the significance of those years? Were their expecatations fulfilled? If it helps, I can list some of the claims in the society's publications about those years. The other possibility is that you object to the use of Franz for any statement about the religion and its eschatology, however mundane. BlackCab (talk) 02:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't recall wanting to the article to mention Franz. I don't care if it does or doesn't. I wanted information removed if a more reliable source couldn't be found. Please remember to read all of the arguments presented and remember who said what before replying, thanks. --Iron Chef (talk) 03:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. But back to my questions. So you're not contesting the information that's sourced to Franz, you just want someone else to be saying it. Correct? BlackCab (talk) 03:28, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Iron Chef, if you aren't contesting any actual point, but just don't like that the source is Franz, you're just making an ad hominem attack. Are you actually contesting article content?--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Citing Franz isn't a issue as we should be nuetral however when citing him or others of his viewpoint we should make sure that it is noted that this is a opinion of a critic. I highly doubt Franz would have anything good or unbiased about the organization. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:26, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying to find out whether this is the issue for Iron Chef. There is no need to identify a mundane, matter-of-fact statement as coming from a critic. Your doubts about Franz's comments being good or unbiased are an unhelpful generalisation. Franz's books made many neutral and good statements about the organization and individuals as well. BlackCab (talk) 04:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Not so much, I'm not completely discounting as I learned several things from his descriptions on how the faith is maintained. I just think that even what some consider mundane or normal should have that disclaimer. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I am just trying to approach this article from a neutral point of view. I don't have any knowledge as to whether those particular statements are true or not. What I do know is that those statements seem to indicate that the followers faith was based on events that didn't happen, thus proving them "wrong" or making them change the dates. I also know that Franz is a critic of the organization. From my point of view, it's a little sketchy. I'd just feel better if there was some secondary source to this.

I'm not taking any kind of biased position here, I'd say the same thing about any article. I understand my viewpoint might be based on inaccuracies - but per my current understanding it doesn't seem reliable... whether the statements are true or not. Hope this clears things up --Iron Chef (talk) 02:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

You started this discussion by saying "Source these statements with official Watchtower information or historical records or remove them." In an article about Watch Tower doctrines, Watch Tower literature would be a primary source, which should be used for only limited purposes. Now you are asking for secondary sources. Franz is a secondary source and, given his detailed examination of WT predictions in his book, an excellent one. However I can add further sources to support his claim that the world didn't end in 1914, or that biblical figures weren't resurrected in 1925, or that religions weren't destroyed in 1918, all of which WTS literature predicted. They too, will be secondary. None will be from WTS publications. BlackCab (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Jesus. You are thick. I'm asking for historical record that these claims were made. That's it. The End. Happily bloody ever after. --Iron Chef (talk) 03:45, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: Also - it seems like you're a big fan of Raymond Franz or something. Why are you being so sensitive about this? I'm not saying anything about the quality of his books or even if he's right about his claims - all that I'm saying is there should be more sources to confirm what he wrote. I could care less if he's right or wrong - I'm just out for accuracy.

When I said that particular information should be from WT sources - I meant historical ones. You know, the ones where the claims would actually be made? Newspapers, extensive documented research, transcripts, historical WT publications are one thing... a bit of info from one author - a critic of the organization - is another. Whether or not he would intentionally mislead, or unknowingly give false information is moot. But if we're going to keep certain statements - they better be backed the fock up. --Iron Chef (talk) 03:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Cut your insults. If you bother to read the article, you'll find it is crammed with references from Watch Tower publications where the original claims were made. Now that we've finally worked out what information you claim was lacking and ascertained that's it all there, are you happy to remove the neutral tag from the article? BlackCab (talk) 04:04, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Iron Chef, can you be specific about what information in the article you are talking about with regard to requiring historical references? There are original WT refs for those claims within the main article body, for which the statement in the lead is a summary.

By the way, the correct expression is "I couldn't care less," meaning 'I already care the minimum possible amount'. Though a common error, "I could care less," is illogical, and suggests caring about something more than one actually wants to.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:26, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey Iron Chef I'd watch it, Just a word to the wise the person you are talking to is a tad overly sensitive. I got blocked for using the word fuck and incompetant. People here need band aids for those kind of boo-boos. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

'Hell In A Bucket', you were blocked for your breach of policy, and it wasn't the 'overly sensitive' editor who blocked you. Irrespective of BlackCab's conduct, you should not be encouraging another editor to 'assume bad faith'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not encouraging him to assume bad faith, I'm encouraging him to realize the reality that some people are overly sensitive and he can learn from my experiences. Did I say Black Cab blocked me nooooo I didn't.... Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to also point out that I never once said that my behavior was spotless. I didn't even post a unblock request so saying that I am somehow blaming Blackcab for me being blocked is ludicrous. I did say that a issue was raised and never addressed through means of misdirection but this was eventually answered by BlackCab himself. I'd really like people to stop putting things in my mouth though. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Well... taking a look at his profile it's clear this is a personal subject to him. I think he's taking it personal that I'm denouncing the credibility of Franz. But i'm not saying he is or isn't right - all I'm saying is this: he fails being a reliable source, and if there are historical references within the main article body - then his source isn't necessary as a lead in. Use the ones that are in the main article body. --Iron Chef (talk) 20:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)