Talk:Yoga as therapy

Introduction

Yoga as exercise was started to discuss those forms of yoga - found mostly in the West - which are purely physical and which deny a connection to Hinduism or spiritual practice. This is not my view of yoga, but I started the article in reponse to concerns by Trollderella that the main Yoga article and the Hatha Yoga article did not give enough space to purely physical secular yoga ("exercise yoga"). The difficulty perceived by other editors was that physical secular yoga is an exception to the traditional Eastern view of yoga. The main Yoga article mentions that some people (particularly in Western cultures) do the physical exercises for health and fitness, and links to Yoga as exercise where the topic can be explored more fully.

It would be helpful for the different yoga articles to each maintain their own focus and develop along individual lines. I suggest that Yoga as exercise maintain its original intention of discussing only those forms of yoga which are purely physical and secular.

Under the current compromise, we have a Yoga article which mainly discusses a broad family of spiritual practices, a Hatha Yoga article which discusses a particular branch of Hindu Yoga that is still a spiritual path (even though it places a lot of emphasis on the postures), and a Yoga as exercise article which presents the physical fitness exercises divorced from Hinduism or spiritual practice. That is my view of where we are. (There are also various articles on specific types of yoga.) --Fencingchamp 21:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge

Fencingchamp, while I like what you have done (I've been reading the talk at Yoga), I think this page and the page Yoga (alternative medicine) are both in need of some filling out. Perhaps if there can be a solid page on the western aspect of yoga, those interested in it as a health and well-being practise will be more inclined to work on it. bodhidharma 16:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I came here 'cos suggestBot thought I'd be interested. I concur with your first sentence that they both need filling out. However, I'm not sure what you're proposing in the second sentence. Can you clarify?

Personally, I'd like to see Yoga (alternative medicine) fleshed out a lot more, and I'd be happy to merge the information from the yoga as exercise article. However, I think it's a bad idea to try to merge the other way round. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 15:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Keep Separate

I agree with user Fencingchamp: the article on yoga as exercise needs to be kept as a separate entry. I also think that yoga, used just as an exercise, is as a subject more closely related to ordinary health, along with (say) cycling and hiking, and not very similar to the broader subject of alternative medicine, which typically involves a more mystical outlook on health. User bodhidharma sensibly brings up the point that too many articles on a single subject can impede development of the Wikipedia. Perhaps people can be encouraged to work on a sub-article by providing copious cross-references to other articles that have been well tended. I think it is important to maintain this separate venue for information for those, like me, who are interested in exercise, and disinterested in this route to spirituality, and disinterested in non-standard medicine. --Tom Lougheed

Agree, keep separate.--Nemonoman 21:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree, keep separate. --User:AlanRo 15:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually I would do away with the section entitled "Yoga as a physical exercise." There simply is no such thing.

One cannot differentiate between the physical and the spiritual aspects of Yoga without denaturating the entire concept of Yoga. Even focusing on Hatha Yoga alone, it is not a set of physical exercises in itself, but a path that leads to a spiritual goal.

In an extreme example, when one only performs the asanas as a physical exercise, his claim that he is practicing Yoga is quite similar with the claim of someone who only imitates the genoflexions that Christian believers do in the course of their prayers (i.e. sit down, stand up, get on your knees and so on), that he is practicing Christianity. This example does not mean to imply that Yoga is a religion, but attempts to show that imitating the external, pure physical expressions of different forms of spiritual manifestations and ignoring the entire spiritual context, does not entitle one to claim that he is a practitioner of that particular spiritual manifestation.

I think there is widespread misconception in the Western world about what Yoga means, and the fact that many Yoga instructors have a fitness background, and themselves consider Yoga a form of fitness, fuels this misconception. This misperception is illustrated by the fact that many people commonly refer to Yoga as an alternative to aerobic or jogging, among others.

I think this gets to the core of the matter and how the issue should be approached in WP. If there is a misconception and malpractice of yoga in the west, that should be a focus or subheading in the more general yoga discussion. Because, if it is true, then it means that what people are doing merely as a form of exercise/social activity is in reality an imposter or corruption with the same name, eg, NOT yoga. WP does a public disservice and would be dishonest to claim that it is actually "yoga, albeit for a different [reduced] goal." (not to mention naively ethnocentric) This ties directly into the claim about co-opting "yoga" as a brand to sell consumer goods for profit. I agree completely with this observation (as if that mattered...), but as it is written it looks ike OR and should probably be rewritten and cited to bring it up to standards.72.244.201.193 18:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

While the pure physiological benefits that one may derive from practising the physical component of Hatha Yoga are not to be denied, it is misleading to call that practice "Yoga." Unless one carries those physical exercises together with the required spiritual exercises, and for the purpose of achieving enlightement, one does not practice Yoga. He or she practices some form of fitness that mistakenly borrowed a name which depicts something else.

If you were to merge them under a new article about the western world then I'm neutral about a merge but then witch section goes on top. I'll Give $1/2$ a vote(a full vote) for Keep separate to encourage people to contribute to the article without worrying about whether a section is off topic. At my School (NY USA) The Physical ‘ed department has "Yoga". It Isn't real yoga but I just love to stretch. In a summer program in California they also had a stretching section they refer to as "Yoga". Thou at my school in NY they did do some guided imagery. Being from the west i tend to think of yoga as a broader term for things like Pilatey (Please correct the spelling for previous word sorry to be offensive).--E-Bod 05:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think keep them separate. The yoga that is perceived as exercise is not the same yoga that is alternative medicine. One is a Westernised interpretation of a traditional activity and the other one is the therapeutic aspects of that traditional activity. And there's lots of room for grey area but ultimately information would be lost be a merger. Both articles would make good daughter articles to the main yoga article. Which is what they currently are I believe. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 06:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree as per above. It is not NPOV but certainly ethnocentric to agree that the Western fragmentation and reduction of the practice should in fact constitute a legitimate "alternate" form of yoga. There is a subtle but extremely important distinction between acknowledging the attempt to change the meaning and practice (successful? according to whom, eh??) and naively acknowledging a "reality" of a "successfully" modified "western yoga," which in reality would be the reduction of the holistic practice to a secular form of "physical exercise" and by definition could NOT be yoga even though many people insist in calling it such (as should be noted in the article). Additionally, it is one thing to argue that "going through the motions" is AN acceptable form of yoga practice vs calling it "yoga.[period]" -- the latter being an imperialistic practice 72.244.201.193 18:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok I change my $1/2$ a vote to a full 1 vote to Keep seperat E-Bod 22:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I'm not sure if i counted right but so far i think there is 1 vote Merge, 5 votes Don't Merge and 1 vote Delete. (Please recount my tally) How Long should we keep the Merge tags up? How about if the artiles are not merged we just mention on each that anoher western use/misuse of yoga is exersize/medicin. Sorry Metta Bubble for miss-combining the 2 talk groups & thanks for fixing it--E-Bod 22:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I work in Chronic Pain Management/Medicine. Yoga as excercise is used within this field of conventional i.e. non-alternate medicine. I argue it is illogical to merge yoga as excercise with alternate medicine when it as also part of conventional medicine. [Michael Liddle.]

I Have removed the merge tags because they have been up for a long time and more people oppose the merge than agree with it. We don't need a maintenance tag here forever--E-Bod 00:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Sexist comment

'Yoga "classes" have special appeal to young women, as they afford an opportunity to put on figure-hugging clothing and have their bodies admired by an in-group.' Does this not apply to young men as well? The singling out of women looks completely gratuitous. Do you agree to change ´women' to 'people'? Bandiera 16:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

No. Overhwelmingly, recruitment into the yoga business is women. El Ingles 17:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

So? Do you have any proof that women are more into yoga because they like wearing figure-hugging clothes and being admired more than men do? Because that is what the sentence states. If you want to state that most recruits are women, I don't have any problem with that (although it would be better to back it up). This explanation for the fact is certainly wrong beside being offensive. Let's take it out. Bandiera 03:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are the facts.

• Yoga classes attract many more women than men. Procedure for verifying this: Observe any large yoga class in the USA or UK.

• Clothing sold for the purpose of attending these classes is more figure-revealing than ordinary street clothes. Procedure for verifying this: As above, plus browse online catalogues of yoga merchants.

• Young women like to have their bodies admired. Procedure for verifying this: Go to any California beach. Better still, a French beach. Observe the behaviour of the young females (preening, hair-tossing, parading, etc.).

I'd say that making a connection between these facts is permissible. I certainly don't see how you could know that it's "certainly wrong". This is just biology at work. El Ingles 16:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The third "fact" is the one I have a problem with (w/o even going into the invocation of "biology"). Unfortunately it is beyond my financial abilities to go to California beaches at the present moment, but I have been to many other beaches and seen quite a few men preening, hair-tossing, parading, etc. there. To remind you, the question is not whether (some) women like to do this, but whether they do this significantly more then men, and whether this is the main reason that there are more women then men at yoga classes. I can think of a few other possible reasons. Anyway this is all highly speculative and unencyclopedic (all three of your "facts" are based on personal observation and not research), so I repeat my request to change "women" to "people". Bandiera 17:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that would read very strangely, personally. I won't change it, but you can. Go ahead -- I don't go in for revert-wars. El Ingles 21:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

You know, it would. It would really be unfair to ascribe such motives to young people in general, as well as women. I'm in despair... Bandiera 03:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the entire sentence be struck, then? As one of those young women into yoga, I have to say that looking sexy is not my priority when working out- comfort is. I wear just a sports bra because a t-shirt falls into my face when I'm doing downward dog. Can't say that I'm doing it for others, since I'm in my apartment, all alone. Also, why is the word "classes" constantly in quotes? They are, in fact, classes, because you do have to learn how to do the poses. It looks like the article is being sarcastic here. Chrisser 01:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is about marketing yoga exercises and paraphernalia, therefore the adoption of strange postures in private is irrelevant to the topic. I've removed the inverted commas around "classes". The piece is supposed to be cynical but not sarcastic. El Ingles 14:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm new to this, so there's a lot I don't know. Is cynicism allowed? Seems biased to me. And I was letting you know what I do in private because it's likely that it's behind the more public displays you're talking about. Inverted poses in baggy t-shirts are no fun, whether in my apartment or in a studio. Chrisser 22:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to have the backup. What do you say, Ingles? Shall we rethink it? Btw I'm also troubled by the idea of a cynical article. Bandiera (Can't find the tildes on this keyboard).

No, I've conceded the quotes on "classes". But again -- I don't go in for revert-wars. If this gets too badly mangled I'll just delete it. El Ingles 19:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Lacrimosus fancies himself as Jack-the-lad now, doesn't he? Without even reading the discussion he dismisses 95% of the content. Well that's the end of that then. El Ingles 16:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh great, some ozzie bastard comes along and assassinates the article, and now Fuzzy510 calls the whole thing a stub. "You can help by expanding it" -- well, thanks mate, I already tried that and look where it got me. Maybe Chrisser can provide extra content along the lines of...

"Young women are attracted to yoga exercises because of the extreme comfort of the clothing, although the fact that the clothes also look sexy is seen as a definite disadvantage. Despite what you may think you have observed on beaches, bars and restaurants, young women really hate being admired"??

El Ingles 21:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

New Ideas

Does anyone have any ideas about what would be more helpful here? I know that when I came looking at this page, I was expecting something along the lines of talk about health benefits and the history, something like what you see over at Pilates or Tai Chi, maybe. Are there any other ideas? Chrisser 23:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Seconded, This article is definitely in need of a health-benefits section 68.144.184.240 (talk) 08:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV?

" This figure not only attests to an elitist lifestyle choice, but the growing commitment to consumption, which in effect contradicts the intended purpose of the physical practice and illustrates why this is becoming a significant social issue. "

This run-on sentence hardly seems an objective statement about the state of the industry. Could this and other opinion-based statements be moved to some sort of sub-heading, like, say, 'criticism of marketing'? TemanCL 08:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Too Political!

I thought this article would be about the exercise and fitness dimension of Yoga. Instead, it reads largely as a political screed. I'd improve this article, but I don't have the knowledge to do so. My hope is somebody who can expound upon the fitness benefits of Yoga can seriously clean up this article. I think the politics properly belong in perhaps the main Yoga article.

I don't dismiss out of hand some of the viewpoints expressed here, but it's just completely inappropriate for this article.

Biased

someone mark this article as biased and needing review, honestly i don't know enough on the subject to edit it myself (Comment left by 63.3.70.9)

I agree. One section feels particularly POV spirited, and the whole article could do with a fresh approach. For now, just tagged. MURGH ^disc. 09:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I think the "Yoga Expenditure" section should probably be removed outright. I don't see any benefit from having it there, and it's got a nasty tone to its wording. CSWarren 23:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

After further consideration, I'm going to be bold and just excise the badness. If somebody really feels the need to add a "Criticism" section, that might be a better title for it. CSWarren 23:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge tag

I have tagged to merge Yoga (alternative medicine) inot this article. Long since articles exist, but no scope to improve further. This article already has a section for disease curing, so merging would be appropriate. Thanks. Phantom654321 (talk) 14:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Effectiveness?

I came here hoping to find information on the effectiveness of yoga as exercise, hopefully with citations. The effectiveness of yoga as exercise or alternative medicine would seem to be a necessary aspect of this article. Tim Bennett (talk) 06:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

To add to that, Yoga needs to be compared with other forms of exercise. It is obvious that Yoga is helpful, since it at least some form of exercise. It is not at all obvious if it more or less helpful, or more or less dangerous, than other forms of exercise. 128.36.174.63 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC).

I too would be very interested in finding here some information from comparative studies of heath benefits and risks of yoga and other kinds of physical exercise. Aryah (talk) 01:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Emerging Schools of Yoga

I don' think the three choices listed for "emerging schools of yoga" are appropriate choices. Why mention Naked Yoga, which is obviously some kind of fringe group, and neglect to mention the important and highly developed schools/styles, such as Iyengar, Ashtanga and so forth. I know everyone has their favorites, but really....!!!!! If no one objects I will change these in a few days. --Little Flower Eagle (talk) 20:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Medical Benefits of Yoga

The article barely covers the actual medical benefits that yoga has. I know that it particularly is useful against arthritis, some good citations are given in this article: http://www.hopkins-arthritis.org/patient-corner/disease-management/yoga.html#benefits It would be nice if someone can incorporate the advantages into the wiki article. leaflord (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Project Yoga

Editors with an interest in working collaboratively to improve the encyclopedic quality of Yoga-related articles are encouraged to visit a new project to achieve this at WP:WikiProject_Yoga. Please let us know you're interested. See you there, Trev M ~  01:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

HIV/AIDS

Where is the citations for this? My doctor has recommended me yoga, yet i find nothing on the internet that supports this? Is there anything that supports this statement? Or can we just liberally add things? "Yoga is good alternative therapy for headaches, and regrowing limbs" Halowithhorns89 (talk) 21:31, 31 May 2010 (UTC)