Talk:Charlie Crist/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

ABF

On 25 Aug, Keeper76 wrote the edit summary, ". . . Overwhelming consensus here is that the tag is legitimate, the project wants to include this article, like any other project, and to assert otherwise is fallacious and ABF". I call upon Wikipedians to refrain from a culture of cliquishness which is big at WP. One way to do so it to use in group acronyms and abbreviations like "ABF" only sparingly, and to err on the side of full phrases. Hurmata (talk) 23:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

"ABF"=Assume Bad Faith, or in other words, to believe that edits with which one disagrees are made with nefarious intentions. There is an essay on the topic. Wikipedia guidelines are to assume good faith unless there is a reason to believe otherwise. I don't think that either side is acting in bad faith over the back-and-forth over the template's addition, although I am beginning to develop whiplash from watching it on-off-on-off-on-off... Horologium (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the use of the acronym, Hurmata. I was out of room on the edit summary window, which should have been an indicator that I was saying too much, not an indicator that I should start abbreviating. I should've just left the last 7 words +1 acronym out of there, I regret them. Keeper ǀ 76 15:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Becksguy decided this topic was a subheading of another, so he reoutlined it. He did that with two topics. When I undid this reoutlining, the edit didn't even show up in the page history. So I'm trying again. This time, instead of just changing the heading markup (from === to ==), I'm typing in text that I can sign. Hurmata (talk) 03:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Now that the 2008 Republican VP contest is over . . .

Now that Sarah Palin was chosen running mate two days ago, I expect the raging urge to push rumors about Charlie Crist to disappear. I'll just have to see; hasn't happened yet. Hurmata (talk) 00:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, still not yet. After scrubbing the latest dreck, I got a hunch. Sure enough, since me on 22 July and someone else on 17 July, nobody has added anything substantive to this article, meaning anything about Crist's actions as governor or his expressions of opinion about Florida affairs. And also between 9 July and 16 July, nothing of that kind. What's wrong, is the legislature out of session? I'm not overlooking that people have edited what was already in the article, but I'm referring to adding new topics or new information about topics. Hurmata (talk) 06:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Now, certain people will be waiting with bated breath for the December wedding to be called off. Hurmata (talk) 02:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yellow journalism by User:Researchnews in this article

User:Horologium has reverted today's edit by User:Researchnews. Rightly so. The edits cited only one reference, an annual report by the state Auditor General. However, some of User:Researchnews's charges were not contained in that report. A possible source for the remaining charges is a letter to the editor of a Florida newspaper in August 2008. This letter contains the "7 percent, 93 percent" statements, the news about the federal Dept of HHS "putting Florida's MFCU on probation", and -- tellingly -- the ungrammatical use of the pronoun 'on' that crops up in User:Researchnews's edit. (It is of course possible that these talking points had been published earlier elsewhere and were just picked up by this particular letter writer.) However, User:Researchnews -- a user with a blank user page -- failed to acknowledge that Crist had only been on the job (as Attorney General) for less than a month when the Feds issued this chastening -- i.e., everything in the Feds' complaint (assuming the validity of the complaint) happened before Crist had responsibility for the problems. Hurmata (talk) 02:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to give the URL for the document I referred to. It's http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2008/08/17/florida_fraud/. Hurmata (talk) 02:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

User:ResearchnewsI am new to Wikipedia. In time I believe my grammar will improve and I will learn about the user page so it is no longer blank. My doctorate is in Medical Biology and Statistics, not grammar. I am open to learning. For over four years I have researched Charlie Crist (as Attorney General and Governor) in his relationship with the Medicaid Fraud Control Unit. Three references were cited. One of the references was removed on the Attorney General report page (audit report No. 2004-033). Prior to removing it, I made a copy. The other two references are also audit reports. I consider these reliable references. In addition, I am the author of the article you refer to in the North County Gazette. Is it yellow journalism on my part, when I relay the information from the audit report using their numbers, but presented in a different light?

The audit report states "1270 cases closed by the MFCU." The reader is left believing the MFCU is doing a great job, until you read further in the audit report. It discloses only 88 cases resulted in convictions and the remainder were unfounded or lacked evidence. That means 1182 cases and thousands of lives were destroyed, in order for Crist to remove Florida from a “high risk status” and the MFCU from probation. When reliable and referenced information is removed is that considered censorship? Researchnews (talk) 12:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Researchnews (talk) 17:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Max Linn's accusation

I have a question on this entry - someone else put it in - "In 2006, controversy surrounding a proposed gay marriage ban and rumors about Crist's own sexuality were stirred when Reform Party candidate Max Linn claimed that he believed Charlie Crist to be gay." I would like to see it placed in chronological order, because it is something that dates to 2006, placing it at the beginning of the section if it stays- if it is edited out I would like someone else higher up the chain to make the decision to edit it out - I really don't want to get into the dialogue on the discussion page about this issue - so some editorial direction on that entry would be helpful. Also "Max Linn" should have brackets around it to point to his article page, however his article page seems to be in question about whether it is to be removed. --4rousseau (talk) 19:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I have been removing the information repeatedly, primarily because of the way it had been framed by the various editors who had been adding it before (mostly IP addresses, plus User:Researchnews), but at least this time the framing was not so outrageously over-the-top, it correctly identifies Max Linn as one of his opponents in the Gubernatorial race, and the sources are better than the previous offerings. I still think it's an undue weight issue, but at least it's well sourced (no axe-grinding columnists, gossip columns from marginal free newspapers, and blogs), mindful of NPOV, and in a section that is relevant to the topic. I'm punting on this one. Horologium (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Max Linn's accusation should have stayed... people have been arguing about whether or not to put the plethora of gay rumors on this page for about 5 years now. Too many people are defending Crist's reputation because of a political agenda. The page is currently telling a lie by creating the idea that the only reference to Crist being gay was in the movie "Outrage" but that ignores the MANY accusations which lead up to the film. I added the Max Linn statement and was finally told by an editor that it could stay because it was properly sourced and was significant enough. Let's not forget that there were the two Republican aides who claimed (publicly) to have slept with him... It's not like these rumors don't have any foundation. 98.203.23.189 (talk) 08:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Trade mission to Europe in July 2008

Discussion of deletions made in this subsection.

• "Crist did not give an explanation for why a Spanish solar company was required, rather than a domestic solar company". No explanation needed: long before globalization, corporations were doing business multinationally — clients were considering foreign vendors, and vendors were making sales in foreign countries. Beyond that, Crist could have made a trade mission to California, which would be within the same country but would be about equally distant, hence about equally expensive in travel costs.
• "There also were questions raised about the seriousness of the trip events, given the participation of the Governor's fiancee, Carole Rome" The reference cited does not substantiate this. The reference is a gallery of 46 photos with captions. If you're going to cite one of these photo captions, integrity demands you cite the photo number, just as you would not cite a quote from a 400 page book and leave out the page number. I found a caption (to photo number 7?) where a British newspaper alleged vaguely that Crist was "under fire for a 'jaunt'". This is not a sufficient reference. After about photo number 26, I quit the search for the damning captions. Beyond this, it is unworthy of WP to report that being accompanied by one's fiancee on a trade mission raises questions about the seriousness of the mission. Of course there will be "photo ops" and obsequious niceties spoken, that's irrelevant. The fact that one prime minister will host a visiting foreign prime minister at a gala dinner does not lead anyone to suppose that no business of state was transacted.
• Embraer in Melbourne". There is only one place that said this, a Miami Times/Herald article. Point 1, Embraer is Brazilian, not European. Point 2, Embraer's expansion came in May 2008, two months before the controversial trade mission to Europe. Either the Times/herald had a brain fart in quoting the governor, or the governor had a brain fart in composing the press release. Either way, the content is so grossly unfactual that WP would need to strongly verify it, especially in a BLP. Hurmata (talk) 08:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

so if it is legitimate source quoting what you call a "brain fart" as a fact- then that fact needs to be purged by you from the article?--4rousseau (talk) 00:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Kirby Dick's documentary Outrage includes Crist

Kirby Dick is an article in WP, his movie Outrage is an article in WP, thus the two items when paired with Crist are worthy of being addressed in this article. So, I have attempted to include the item as part of Crist's bio in as objective a manner possible. There have been attempts to add this item in recent days - posted and removed -posted and removed etc- however, those attempts were written in an inflammatory style, bordered on vandalism and did not cite references. Hopefully, future edits will include well sourced material and will be written objectively.--4rousseau (talk) 23:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with John Broughton's recent edits to make this article more npov, such as retitling the blatantly opinionated "Reverses position on offshore oil drilling" and removing the section "Greer under fire", which is very unbalanced. However, this article still has problems with imbalance, non-neutral tone, and undue weight. It seems to be largely one-sided, heavy on the critics and noticeably absent supporting views for balance. By simply listing all the legislation that Crist has voted for or against as governor with little context or balance is more a collection of indiscriminate information than a biographical article.

I've asked for a BLP review of the "Personal life" section's supposed "outing" content, as the use of left-wing opinion blogs such as salon.com and huffingtonpost and an obscure indie film do not constitute reliable secondary sources required by BLP for defamatory content. It it also a misreresentation to characterize such as "mainstream media". This kind of highly negative content requires solid, secondary sourcing such as Time magazine, The NY Times, Associated Press, etc., to comply with WP:BLP. Indeed, even the Variety movie review says the film may have libel issues.  JGHowes  ^talk 21:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

" as the use of left-wing opinion blogs such as salon.com and huffingtonpost" -- they are not solely left wing blogs - to describe them solely as such conveys a right wing bias to me, but I assume good faith.--4rousseau (talk) 00:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the structure used for this article isn't the greatest, and also that the writing is not as neutral as I would like. I also think that perhaps the "Outrage" film information doesn't belong; its sourced to blogs (and Variety of all things), and given the claims I think we should ask for a higher degree of sourcing here. This article, like any BLP, is intended to be a full and complete biography - but a major claim of hypocrisy and homosexuality, with scant coverage and no evidence, doesn't make the cut in my mind. Nathan ^{T (formerly Avruch)} 14:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

"(and Variety of all things)"-- Variety is a trade magazine over 100+ years old. --4rousseau (talk) 00:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have included several additional sources the NY Times, NPR, LA Times, San Francisco Chronicle, Washington Post in addition to the original sources posted.--4rousseau (talk) 23:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

There are no solid sources for the rumors of homosexuality regarding Charlie Crist, though as a Floridian I can tell you these rumors have been around for decades and predate the "liberal blogs" that JGHowes cites as the ultimate source for such. And "Max Linn" isn't the sole person to come forward making accusations. He's just the first to get widespread coverage. Be that as it may, there is, as noted, no solid evidence, and the governor denies it. Whether you follow the adum of "where there is smoke there is fire" is a personal choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JackFloridian (talk • contribs) 13:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Section removed: "Greer under fire"

I've removed this section, which only very peripherally concerns Crist (he appointed Greer and he supported Greer after some questioned Greer's actions). I'm not even sure that the section would be worth including in the bio of Greer himself, since it's basically an argument over the most effective use of political funds (yawn); no illegalities are even alleged. In any case, the removal from this article is per WP:NPOV; an entire section (or even, in my opinion, a single sentence) on this matter is clearly undue weight and space. (Removed wording follows.) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 19:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

One day after the RGA conference, Jim Greer, the Republican Chairman in Florida appointed by Crist and a long time friend and Crist staffer, came under fire from fellow GOP McCain staff in Florida with regard to how the party was spending its money during the election. Some questioned payments made for Tampa Bay Rays games, New York Yankees games, trips to Disney World, and $682,000 on chartered planes; and wondered why the funds were not spent on air time for television and radio advertising. Greer and others responded that they were operating within the rules and such expenditures had to be made in order to court major donors. Greer also stated that all funds had been offered to the McCain campaign in Virginia, and the McCain headquarters returned the funds back to the Republican Party of Florida. Crist immediately sent a letter detailing his support for Greer and his endorsement of Greer's re-election as chair of the party in Florida.

it is always fascinating to see the new folks who arrived at an article for the first time on the date a pol launches a campaign. the section on greer remains-- it is consistent with the paragraphs preceding it -- it details the dynamics of the FL Republican party and Crist's involvment and how it affects Crist, who is the subject. Also, the subject for Ban on Gay Adoption remains because it is an existing ban the Gov supports -- not a general topic of Gay Adoption-- same thing with civil unions etc. attempting to replace "minority groups" with the term "cultural issues" lacks an understanding and sophistication about the subject and how it is discussed in academia and other spheres--4rousseau (talk) 21:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with the changes that John made to the article, as they did a lot to restore an NPOV balance that was lacking in this article. The headings should be generic and rather sterile; the text following the headings is where it is appropriate to detail his views on the subject. I have reverted to John's last version, restoring his NPOV headings and removing the coatracky section on Greer. Horologium (talk) 21:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I have made many attempts to not be coatracky-- in fact removing other edits that were off the charts. I trust Horologium's call on this -- don't know John etc, never saw that handle before on this article etc..--4rousseau (talk) 22:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

One final thing, i think culture, race, minority status are distinctly different things--listing "cultural issues" misses the mark in a number of ways.--4rousseau (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll coast on Horologium's reputation rather than mine. And yes, I agree that "Cultural issues" isn't quite right; all I can say in my defense is that it was "Minority groups" before, which was even more wrong. Perhaps "Social issues", or "Social and cultural issues"? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 01:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

why is "minority groups" even more wrong? they (gays, blacks) are demographically minorities in that region of the US. people are not born "socially black" so social issues and social cultural issues does not cover it. It is best to think of this in terms that the US Census uses --and demographically the census uses the term minorities.--4rousseau (talk) 00:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I want to reiterate that the issue John Broughton said he "yawned" over -namely use of campaign funds- plays into Crist's runoff against his opponent fellow Repub. Marco Rubio and how the Repub. party Greer heads up is assessing each candidate.--4rousseau (talk) 00:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Removal of facts from article on Carole Rome Crist

"Hurmata" removed several factual contributions to the Carole Crist article - the main reason stated is because some of the facts are already posted here. I would request Horologium to review the Carole Crist history and determine what sections should remain and also to address the request from Hurmata for deletion of the Carole Crist page etc. I think we need to deal with this now rather than ongoing as items come up related to the senatorial campaign. --4rousseau (talk) 22:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to get involved in editing Carole Crist, but reading through Hurmata's edits and the discussion on the talk page, the only things he removed that are relevant to this article are the trip expenses and fundraising thing, which are mentioned in this article already. Adding them to her article is a bit coatracky. The rest of his removals are gossip, poorly sourced and tangentially notable trivia, or information about her ex-husband's remarriage, which is utterly irrelevant. There's not a lot of notability asserted in the article (first spouses are not inherently notable; more than half of the people at List of current United States first spouses are either redlinks or redirects to their spouses, and there are a number more that should join them (Lou Rell, Lori Easley, Mariclare Culver, Marsha Barbour, Barbara Richardson, Mikey L. Hoeven, and Jenny Sanford). I'm not going to redirect it or nominate it for AfD, but it's certainly a valid candidate, and if it were to be nominated, I'd !vote to delete. BLPs of individuals who are not inherently notable (or notable only by proxy) are tricky things, and easy to make into coatracks, even when that is not the intent. Horologium (talk) 11:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

i am pasting the above to carole crist's discussion page as well -along with this reply-since you agree with Hurmata that the Carole Crist article should be a candidate for AfD-- yet no one has placed that flag on the article. Some of what Hurmata removed related to the private corporate jet industry- Todd Rome, Carole's ex runs Blue Star Jet, Carole sat in at the table at meetings with Crist and aviation industry experts on the European trade trip, ---all of this was purged by Hurmata. Is this just coatracky info? I don't think so.

Crist had knee surgery in June 2008 - he recuperated at Jill Zarin's home in the Hamptons - Jill Zarin and the Housewives of New York City (along with the entire franchise) are WP articles that are routinely visited and edited --and this information was also removed. The New York Housewives pages are part of WP- Crist spent his recuperation at Jill Zarin's home and then shortly thereafter proposed to his Carole, whose home "Chateau Rome" appeared in the show and she is good friends with Zarin.

and here are the links if anyone cares to see re:friendship between Real Housewives Zarin and Carole Rome Crist --

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2009/03/lost-footage-of-floridas-first-lady-on-real-housewives.html --4rousseau (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

and

http://jillzarin.com/jills-blog/summer-update-from-the-hamptons/ --4rousseau (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carole_Crist"

The framework/infrastructure for creating pages for each new first lady of each state is something WP allowed to be created and to take up that bandwidth. I find it interesting that it is discussed as a possible AfD- since all the little nifty boxes showing incumbent predecessor etc are listed on those pages just as they are for the Governors. It would be odd not to have info that is posted on both Michelle Obama's page as well as Barack Obama's page or Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton, or Laura Bush and George W. Bush. Yet, here that practice is treated as a redundancy if any linkage is implied, odd.

My hope is that this article does not become Palinized-- i.e. what happened to Sarah Palin's page when she was announced as McCain's running mate. --4rousseau (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I have responded on Talk:Carole Crist, which is a more appropriate location for this discussion. Horologium (talk) 18:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Potential sources for expansion (was "Further reading" section in article)

Per WP:GTL and WP:EL, "Further reading" is supposed to be used for offline sources, and to be the equivalent of the "External links" section. Moreover, Wikipedia has no provision for keeping ELs in the article if they don't meet WP:EL criteria, but are potential sources. So I'm moving the section here, so that these sources don't get lost.

• [1] Morgan, Lucy (May 9, 2005). "Crist Will Enter Governor's Race." St. Petersburg Times, pp. 1A.
• [2] 1998 U.S. Senate race results.
• [3] Bousquet, Steve (February 18, 2006) "Crist's landlord reportedly takes illegal tax exemption" "St. Petersburg Times"
• [4] March, William (January 8, 2006) Tampa Tribune
• [5] (February 13, 2006) "Candidate's Fundraiser Uncovers Questionable Supporters" "Miami Herald"
• [6]Tisch, Chris (January 17, 2005) "The Woman Who Asked Charlie That Question" "St. Petersburg Times"
• [7]Capital Bureau
• [8] Attorney seeks to block steroid questions in corrections lawsuit
• [9] (October 3, 2006) "Book: Crist tried to "whitewash" probe" "The Gainsville Sun"
• [10] Miller, John J. (April 7, 2008). "He's No Jeb Bush." National Review.

I suggest that if/when a source above is incorporated into the article, it be struck through (use the <s> and </s> tag pair). -- John Broughton (♫♫) 13:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Recent edit

I spent a bit of time this evening working on this article in a userspace subpage (User:Nathan/Crist if you're interested) and I think I've made some improvements to the article overall, while keeping most of what was already there. There was an enormous amount of very good sourcing on the article, most of which remains, but my approach has been to make the following changes:

• I've eliminated most of the policy-area specific headers, because they generally contained only one issue each and the formatting didn't allow for placing them in the proper context

• I've removed some information on relatively minor policy issues, and condensed the remainder into a somewhat cohesive narrative that focuses on Crist as an individual and a politician as opposed to chronicling specific events during his term. My thinking here is that we are writing a comprehensive biography, as opposed to a detailed account of his tenure as governor, and while the former is achievable the article was a fairly haphazard attempt at the latter

• I've condensed the presidential campaign and other political activity not related to his role as governor (as opposed to the role of a prominent Floridian politician) in a "Political activity" section

• I've expanded the introduction somewhat, and removed the references (see WP:MOS#LEDE). For a high quality article, the intro ought to be a wide-angle overview of the contents of the article - and everything broadly described in the intro should have a more detailed treatment in the body of the article (hence references in the intro are unnecessary).

I think, and I hope you'll agree, that this version of the article goes a ways towards making the article conform with the standard Wikipedia style for biographies (and those of politicians specifically). If folks are amenable, I think this article could potentially become a GA or even an FA with some more work on the intro, ref formatting and copyediting. Nathan ^T 03:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

it looks horrible now, and has a lot of important information scrubbed, and really really bad grammar--4rousseau (talk) 05:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

This article is being sanitized, scrubbed

suddenly the references for two of Crist's moderate appointments to the court have been removed. it now looks like some sort of People magazine article. a chopped up version of the original article is now what appears--grammatical errors at every turn- run on sentences all over the place, apostrophes missing,commas needed. Many many problems. It is just really too bad that someone's political bias has resulted in this hatchet job-- and that is the kindest that can be said about it. I am referring to the edit job done by Nathan ^T and posted on 03:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC) --4rousseau (talk) 05:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I restored Nathan's revision, as it was an enormous improvement over the previous version. There are some grammar issues, but the structure of the article is much tighter and better organized. Add apostrophes and capitals where needed, and maybe tweak the formatting of individual sentences, but don't revert back to the previous version again, please. Horologium (talk) 11:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, a fair bit of copyediting is definitely necessary. I'll try to get to that today, restructuring and framing the content was my mission yesterday. Nathan ^T 14:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

section below pasted in from living persons biographies noticeboard:

Charlie Crist, Outrage (documentary), Palinized major revision and Carole Crist article

• Charlie Crist (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - I am concerned that adding defamatory content about the so-called "outing" of the Florida governor ("Personal life") is contrary to BLP. A wider consensus on this is requested. It relies on an indie film Outrage (documentary) and opinion blogs such as salon.com and huffingtonpost, without any reliable secondary sources. The article Outrage (documentary) has similar concerns.  JGHowes  ^talk 21:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I've compiled and edited in a rewrite of this article, and proposed on the talkpage that it be accepted as a starting point for further development. Comments invited and welcome. Nathan ^T 03:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The section on Outrage the documentary within the Charlie Crist article is well sourced, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, San Francisco Chronicle among others- JGHowes  needs to take a look at it. The article page for the documentary itself should have its own section on this page, like the Carole Crist issue, because they are separate articles.

Last night the Charlie Crist article underwent a major revision by Nathan.

The two conservative state supreme court judges Crist appointed were left in the article, however two of the moderate state supreme court judges were removed along with the references.

Over fifty different other footnotes were deleted, purged.

There are sections of the article now that have paragraphs beginning mid sentence with no capital letter at the beginning of the sentence, many misspellings,grammatical errors and it looks very crude--not a good way to represent content for WP image.

This article looks like it is getting Palinized--there is an attempt to only highlight Crist's conservative actions and remove content that details his moderate actions. It also mischaracterizes Crist's relationship to environmental groups.

I would appreciate someone higher up the chain to take a look at what has been done to the Charlie Crist article and the Carole Crist article- how they appeared prior to major purges of information made by Nathan and Hurmata (talk) and to advise on what content should be part of the article and what should not be purged.--4rousseau (talk) 15:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The article on Crist's wife Carole Crist has also had content purged without a good reason: the fact that she has two daughters and the name of her ex husband removed from the article even though this information is well sourced and widely seen in print publications. Details on her divorce date were also removed. And her participation in an expensive and unpopular overseas economic trade trip were also purged from her article. Also, her appearances on the Real Housewives of New York was purged.--4rousseau (talk) 16:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, many of the grammatical and other copyediting errors were present before my revision. I've fixed some of them, and plan to do more polishing, but I think a comparison of the revisions shows that the current version is superior in a number of ways. The article on Crist's wife is something I don't know anything about, although I suspect that we have an article at all is probably inappropriate. Some footnotes were removed, that is true - a chunk of content that chronicled political developments in Florida but weren't relevant to a biography was condensed, and in the process approximately a quarter of the 200 or so references became unnecessary. I wouldn't object to reincorporating some of that content into the article, if it can be done without returning to the former disorganized and disjointed format. Nathan ^T 16:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

due respect, but , Nathan, your response simply is not true. many of the grammatical errors were not present prior to your revision. License plates were not referred to as License place-- broken links to Partial Birth Abortion etc were not broken links prior to your edit.

you also did not address the removal of info on the moderate judge appointments. i simply can't continue to believe that you are operating in good faith if you can't acknowledge that, in your haste to post a new version of the article, you made a lot of errors that make the article read like an elementary school paper rather than a high quality live page in WP- please at least be honest about the facts of what can clearly be seen in the history even if you can't be about the quality of your edits.--4rousseau (talk) 17:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand that you might be irritated at significant changes to an article that you've been expanding for about a year, but I submit that it would be more constructive to fix problems you identify rather than complain about them on a noticeboard. Copyediting is being done; some errors were made, some already existed. At any rate, issues about the article unrelated to the BLP policy should be discussed on the article talkpage rather than both there and here. Nathan ^T 17:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

what would have been most constructive would have been for you to operate with some collegial respect and to have reviewed your major revisions prior to posting, perhaps if you would have made the effort to correct at least the grammatical and form errors prior to posting- which you now want others to fix for you but not talk about-- perhaps the major revision would have been received better.

the intentional omissions and, in my view, attempts at obfuscation remain a problem however, and I believe others on this noticeboard need to be aware of what is happening to this article. --4rousseau (talk) 18:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you found my edit not collegial; I've made an effort to be collegial, which is why I have been ignoring your accusations of bias, whitewashing, etc. You are, of course, free to not correct any typographical or other errors you see in the article but I'm not sure why you would choose to do that. In the mean time, I've corrected the errors you noted and replaced mention of the moderate judges Crist appointed to the Florida Supreme Court. Nathan ^T 18:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

all details and resources on the Lawton Chiles Fund and the Chiles family potential lawsuit against Crist was removed, as well as Crist's response. instead the article makes statements like "the health insurance reform efforts have been well received - standing next to former football star Dan Marino,"--4rousseau (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

all balanced references that detail pros and cons on Crist's environmental policy have been removed, instead it now states "lauded by environmental groups for his opposition to coastal oil drilling and his efforts to restore the Everglades using land purchased with public funds"--4rousseau (talk) 21:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I removed any references about the environmental stuff; what you've quoted is part of the intro. As for the Lawton Chiles controversy, it doesn't seem significant enough in the scheme of things (either his career as governor, or his life) to include in a biographical article. High profile public officials attract accusations and lawsuits, and the public coverage of this one seems to be pretty slim - which indicates to me that it isn't particularly serious or meaningful, and that argues against including an unresolved accusation of misappropriation of public funds in a BLP. Nathan ^T 13:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sections that can be expanded

I'm going to try to do some work expanding the Florida Attorney General section, and adding some additional sources for the content that is there, particularly the lawsuit and the part about the AAG. The 2006 campaign section needs some additional work as well - - the bit about Convergys and the other critical bits need some clarifying, referencing and updating (since some events have presumably progressed since they were originally reported, and we should track down their current status). Nathan ^T 15:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Referencing needed

The Rev. O'Neal Dozier, a member of Crist's team and the Worldwide Christian Church, also generated controversy after being dismissed from his position on the Broward Judicial Nominating Commission for calling Islam a "cult" and a "dangerous religion" and opposing the construction of a mosque on the grounds that "we don't want our area to be a breeding ground for terrorists". Crist initially declined to take action about Dozier and said that he was "happy" with the help he got. However, he later told his staff to remove Dozier from all campaign committees, saying "While Charlie Crist respects Rev. Dozier's right to express his political and religious beliefs, he does not agree with Rev. Dozier's recent statements and writings concerning Islam".

Crist's platform as a gubernatorial candidate included a "pro-life and pro-family" approach to abortion, characterized by $3,000 subsidies to adoptive parents and $5,000 subsidies to foster parents as well as support for limiting adoption to heterosexual prospective parents and banning gay marriage.

The platform also included: advocacy for parent school choice and strict, standardized testing in education; tracking drug prescribing and dispensing; limiting the cost of homeowners insurance; report cards for insurance companies; abolition of Citizens Insurance; support for right to die legislation; legal protection for individuals in eminent domain cases; tort reform through the elimination of joint and several liability; property tax flexibility; support for Florida's Defense of Marriage Act; support for the death penalty; gun rights (Crist endorsed by the National Rifle Association as an "A+" candidate); efforts to stop the combat growth in hate crime incidence; support for closed borders with promotion of legal immigration; opposition to further statewide expansion of legal gambling; and support for environmental protections such as a ban on off shore oil drilling near Florida's coastline.

Outrage again

While I have no desire to get into the wider issues surrounding the inclusion of this section, one of the comments I noticed was the claims most of the sources don't mention Crist by name. Using a simple browser search, I've checked all the sources and I'm come across a few that don't but also found most do. The NPR ones are one but given that The Huffington Post source (I'm presuming it's a RSS) mentions the NPR, there is perhaps some relevance so I'm willing to let that slide. But I don't see any reason for the inclusion of the WashingtonPost sources, neither of which appear to mention Crist. Remember this is an article on Charlie Crist therefore any coverage of the documentary should be how it concerns Crist and not general commentary. Nil Einne (talk) 05:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the WP sources given the lack of any objection or explanation as to why they belong Nil Einne (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Assault on an Atheist

http://lifewithoutfaith.com/?p=3336 Maybe there's a sub-section in this. For now though I say we sit on this and see if it develops. Protectthehuman (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charlie Crist/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

There's a lot to like in this article, but it is not yet of GA standard. The prose falls short, though not so far short that it can't be repaired during this process. The biggest issue is the state of the article's referencing, which is at best average. I'm placing this on hold to allow for the concerns below to be addressed. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it well-written?

Fixed problems

It's not terrible, but it certainly needs some work to get to GA standard, especially in some sections (the 2008 presidential election section being probably the most seriously in need of TLC). Specific points: The lead is too short - per WP:LEAD, an article of this size should have a lead of two or three paragraphs. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Besides being too short, the lead does not adequately summarize all aspects of the article. For example, the "Personal life", "2006 gubernatorial campaign", and "Political activity" sections are not covered at all in the lead, and the "Early political career" is barely touched upon. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC) The lead contains material not covered in the rest of the article, including the full name, birth date, distinction as the first cabinet official to be elected governor in 95 years, his record's resemblance to Jeb Bush's, and his eligibility to seek re-election. Ideally, all material in the lead should also be found elsewhere in the article; if you're going to deviate from this (limited deviation is permissible) you need to cite the information that isn't found elsewhere in the article. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Crist's name is overused throughout the article. Replace many occurrences of it with pronouns. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) There is inconsistency on the capitalization of positions (governor, attorney general, vice president, etc.) throughout the article. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "As governor, Crist has echoed his predecessor..." I'm not sure "to echo" is the right verb here. "Emulated"? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...generally conservative positions on a broad range of social issues..." Too many words. How about either "generally conservative positions on social issues" or "conservative positions on a broad range of social issues"? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...on fiscal management and environmental policy." How about just "fiscal and environmental policy."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "He has been described as fostering better relationships with minority communities..." How about "He has been credited with..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Though eligible under Florida law to seek a consecutive term as governor in the 2010 election cycle..." I don't think that a single thing can be "consecutive", and there are too many words in any event. I'd prefer "Though eligible to seek a second term in 2010..." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "He is the second eldest child;" How about "He is the second of four children"? Just saying he's the second eldest child doesn't really provide any context. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "he has three sisters, Margaret Crist Wood, Dr. Elizabeth Crist Hyden, Catherine Crist Kennedy." I don't think the comma after "sisters" is the right punctuation there. Colon would work, as would a spaced endash or unspaced emdash. Also, you need an "and" in there. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) All of the children's names -- Charles, Margaret, Elizabeth, Catherine -- are classically Scot-Irish Presbyterian names. Seems like the Florida Crists like being Presbyterians in the deep South rather than Greeks -- but there is a big Greek enclave in, I believe, Tarpon Springs (?), just N of St Pete. WmMBoyce (talk) 08:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC) "Gay rights groups protested the passage of Amendment 2 gay marriage ban..." "...the Amendment 2 gay marriage ban..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "In 1981, after graduating law school..." If "after graduating law school" is going to be used as a parenthetical, which seems to be the intent, it needs to be enclosed in two commas. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "... who he would in the future describe as his political mentor." "in the future" seems redundant. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) Florida Senate should probably be wikilinked somewhere. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "He established a reputation in the Senate as a law and order senator..." He was a senator in the Senate? Wouldn't have guessed. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...legislation to require..." "...requiring..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...serve at least 85% of their sentence..." sentences. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...created a license plate to raise funds for the Everglades." Not really clear what is meant here. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...then governor..." I think this should be hyphenated. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Chiles later..." Later than what? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) It's not clear what is meant by "scare calls". Can this be wikilinked or explained? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...but stood for and was elected..." Seems redundant. Could he have been elected without standing? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...a position he held until 2003." Dangling modifier. Maybe reword to "...and held the position until 2003."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Beginning in 2003...the position of commissioner is filled by political appointment." Given the use of the present tense, this seems a little awkward to me. Maybe "As of 2003..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) Center for Missing and Exploited Children should probably be wikilinked. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...he ended further official attempts..." "Further" should probably go. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) 'N Sync and Backstreet Boys could use wikilinks. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...currently serving a 25 year sentence..." I'd remove "currently"; time-specific terms should be avoided when possible, and this one doesn't seem to add anything. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...during the term of prior attorney general Bob Buttersworth." Suggest rewording this. "...under Crist's predecessor, Bob Buttersworth." maybe? I'm not sure what would be best. As well, I'd suggest wikilinking Bob Buttersworth, even if he doesn't have an article yet, unless you think it unlikely that one will ever be created. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Her successer in the position..." Remove "in the position" as redundant. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "During his gubernatorial campaign, Crist's campaign manager..." This reads as though this was during the gubernatorial campaign of Crist's campaign manager (a possessive can't be an antecedent). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...while the Ukrainian official's fee was paid by another guest." Unclear what this means. Was the fee originally supposed to have been paid by Crist? That seems counter-productive, given that it was a Crist fundraiser. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Further controversy set in, however, when ethics complaints were filed against Crist..." A couple of things: first, I don't think "however" adds anything to this sentence. Second, while the passive voice is normally loved by me, here it might be better to say who filed these complaints, if it can be said succinctly. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)  Done to here. Nathan T 00:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist's platform as a gubernatorial candidate included a "pro-life and pro-family" approach to abortion.[30][31];" The punctuation here is screwed up. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...both for his approach to fiscal policy and state spending." Aren't those pretty much the same thing? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "In January 2009, when the state was facing the repercussions of the nationwide recession," There's an opportunity for a wikilink here. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...while Republican governors in some other states were rejecting portions of the federal stimulus package Crist spoke in favor of it and for Florida receiving its full measure." A comma is desirable after "package", I think, and I'm not sure that "measure" is the best word. "Share" or "portion", maybe? See what you think. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist and his fiancee made a 12 day trip to Europe that ultimately cost taxpayers..." "ultimately"? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "While the deal had been shepherded in part by the firms American attorney..." Apostrophe needed. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist has supported separate efforts to ban gay marriage in Florida, and later signed a bill to that effect, and has also endorsed a prior (and in some respects unique to Florida[54]) ban on adoption by prospective gay parents - arguing that a "traditional family provides the best environment for children."" This is an extremely convoluted sentence (and I should know - I could easily have written it). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "At the same time, he has appointed the majority of the members of the Florida Supreme Court..." It seems to me that "At the same time" implies some kind of contrast, which I don't see here. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "On other issues, Crist has departed from traditional Republican policy positions - particularly on environmental policy, an important issue in Florida." Hyphen should be a dash. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist's orders would set new emissions targets for power companies, automobiles and trucks, toughen conservation goals for state agencies, and require state-owned vehicles to use alternative fuels." Faulty parallelism. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist opposed offshore oil drilling a position he shared with California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger." Some punctuation needed (comma, dash or parentheses). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Later that month, in June 2008..." Saying "later that month" and then spelling out the month seems a little odd. If the previous comments were made in June 2008, which I presume they were, maybe move "in June 2008" to that sentence and just leave "Later that month" here. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist hosted his first climate change summit in Florida." Is this the same summit as the one dealt with later in the paragraph? If so, it should probably be moved so the subject is dealt with in one place. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...and he stated:" How about just "...stating:"? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "in June 2008 Crist proposed that the State of Florida buy 187,000 acres of land for conservation," Seems unnecessarily wordy to me. Maybe just "...proposed buying..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...as the states' "first black governor."" Apostrophe needs relocating. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...tackled the states' regulation..." Here too. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...stemming from criticisms from those who believed votes were being undercounted..." How about just "...criticisms that votes..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...the health insurance reform efforts have been well received - standing next to former football star Dan Marino..." I'd change the hyphen to a period (and if you don't, it needs to be changed to a dash). As well, I'm sort of puzzled by Marino's involvement - does he have an autistic kid, or something? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Senator John McCain played a major role in Crist's 2006 campaign for governor - McCain endorsed Crist and traveled the state of Florida campaigning with him." Hyphen should be a dash, and there are some redundant words in there: I'd remove "2006" and "the state of". Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "The day before the Florida general election, Crist chose to hold a campaign event with McCain in Jacksonville, Florida rather than attend a Pensacola, Florida rally with President George W. Bush." I'd suggest the removal of all three occurrences of "Florida" here. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "...were held in St. Petersburg, Florida..." This one too; I doubt the reader is going to think that the debates were held in Russia. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist physically embraced McCain and was observed as offering..." How about just "...and offered..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "...visiting Crist's hometown for the debate." I'd delete this. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "...in demanding that their state's delegates be seated at each party's convention." The apostrophe needs to move if this is saying what I think it's saying. I would also remove "...at each party's convention", which doesn't seem to add anything. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "...Crist publicly endorsed Senator John McCain in the Republican primary race" Since he's already been mentioned this section, I'd suggest reducing "Senator John McCain" to either "John McCain" or "McCain". I'd also suggest removing the word "race", which doesn't add much. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...gave McCain a leg up..." This strikes me as a touch colloquial for a Wikipedia article. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...along with Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney..." No comma needed. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...a Memorial Day weekend at Senator John McCain's Sedona, Arizona home." Here it should definitely just be "McCain's". As well, can you attend a weekend? "...spent Memorial Day weekend...", maybe? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...for the presidential general election held on November 4, 2008." Shorten to "for the presidential election" or similar, and possibly add wikilink. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "The Governor did go on to participate in several campaign rallies several days later." You're hitting on one of my pet peeves here, the use of titles instead of pronouns. I think it makes you sound like a political aide (if you know any such people, you know that they constantly refer to "the candidate" or "the Minister" or what have you). I'd strongly suggest replacing with either "He" or "Crist", as appropriate. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...rather than animosity specifically between Crist and McCain." Maybe "...though not of animosity specifically between..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Florida is a state that offers early voting to its constituents." By this point, the reader knows that Florida is a state. Accordingly, "...is a state that..." should probably go. "...to its constituents." should probably also go, since who else would it offer early voting to? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...record turnout of voters..." "...record voter turnout..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Some election officials in certain counties..." As distinct from uncertain counties? Does this have something to do with quantum physics? How about just "Election officials in some counties..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...while other election officials..." We're already talking about election officials, so this can be tightened to "...while others..." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Other journalists and photo-journalists..." "Photo-journalist" is a subset of journalist, so this reads oddly. I'd suggest rewording to "Journalists..." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...that the race was tightening in Florida." When I read this I asked myself "which race?" While it's arguably clear from context (it is in the section about the 2008 presidential race, after all), my preference would still be to add the word "presidential". Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "On October 31, 2008 Crist appeared in a McCain-Palin web ad..." The style elsewhere in this article has been to put a comma after 2008. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...endorsing the senator." What else would he have been doing appearing in their ad, denouncing them? I'd suggest eliminating this. And if you don't, see my earlier wrath towards referring to people by their titles. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist abruptly left a poorly-attended McCain rally in Tampa on the last day of the race and Crist was a no show at..." Since Crist is already the subject of the sentence, just delete the second occurrence of his name. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "On November 12-14, 2008 Crist hosted..." Comma after 2008. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...in Miami, FL." I don't think that identification of the state is necessary, and if it is it should be spelled out. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "After the resounding Democratic Party win of the 2008 election, where the presidency, along with several house and senate seats were won by Democrats..." Far too wordy. I would prefer simply "After the Democratic Party's resounding win in the 2008 election..." but if you feel the need to specify race, how about "After the Democratic Party's resounding win in the 2008 presidential, House, and Senate elections..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "She offered her first press conference since joining the McCain ticket at the post-election RGA meeting..." Wordy. Tighten to something like "This was her first press conference since joining the McCain ticket, and she received..." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...and they openly discussed the split in the Republican Party (GOP)..." How about replacing "and" with "in which"? As well, I would remove both "openly" (things discussed in media interviews are obviously being discussed openly) and "(GOP)". Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...over the issue of where to direct the party's next efforts to gain more voters." Wordy. "...over where to direct its efforts to increase its voter base." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "In April 2009, Crist became one of the subjects in Kirby Dick's documentary Outrage..." "Crist was one of the subjects of Kirby Dick's April 2009 documentary, Outrage..." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "This led many in the press to speculate about the veracity of the claims in the documentary and also publicly debate Crist's right to privacy." Oh my. "This led to a public debate about Crist's sexual orientation and right to privacy."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Political analysts also debated what the appropriate tactical response from Crist should be..." The word "tactical" was just in the previous sentence. How about "Political analysits also debated Crist's best response..."? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist announced May 12, 2009 that he will not run for re-election as governor in 2010, and instead will run for the US Senate in 2010." Too many occurrences of "2010"; I'd delete one. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Some opponents in the senate race include fellow Republican Marco Rubio [147][148] and Democrat Kendrick Meek" This needs a period. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Significant problems

The paragraph on Crist's 2006 platform, in addition to raising some neutrality issues (see below), is inelegantly written as a single sentence. I'd suggest a complete rewrite. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist, one of the more popular Florida governors[34], has taken generally conservative positions on many social policy issues while also receiving criticism from time to time from Florida Republicans for his fiscal approach, for urging bipartisan cooperation - particularly with President Barack Obama, and for the rigor (or lack thereof) of his official schedule." Generally single sentence paragraphs are bad, and I don't think this is an exception; I'd suggest breaking up. Also, the hyphen needs to be either a spaced endash or an unspaced emdash, and there needs to be a second one after "Obama". Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC) "...and the Republican National Committee said it would strip 50% of all of the state's delegates." "Said" is an odd verb choice here. I'd suggest hiving this out into a separate sentence, and rewording it, or reworking the entire thing to something like "Both the Democratic and Republican national committees announced that they would strip Florida (and Michigan, which made a similar change) of half of its delegates. The Democratic National Committee also stripped Florida of all of its superdelegates." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) "Ultimately, the Democratic National Committee decided to seat all Florida and Michigan delegates while granting each delegate a half vote, and the Republican National Committee came to a similar conclusion." If the decisions were the same, why not deal with them in a single clause? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC) ...that he did not have a problem with the voter registration group known as ACORN as it operates in the state of Florida." Extremely wordy. Shorten to something like "...that he did not have a problem with ACORN's activities in Florida." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "Some members of the press directly asked Crist if he would be campaigning with McCain in Florida. On October 14, 2008, Crist indicated that his primary responsibilities lay with the people of Florida, saying, "When I have time to help out my friend [McCain] I'm eager and anxious to do so."" Also wordy. I'd suggest reducing to one sentence, possibly "In response to questions from the press, Crist indicated that, while he considered his primary responsibility to be discharging his duties as governor, "When I have time to help out my friend [McCain] I'm eager and anxious to do so."" Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...source who said "He just blew..." Not a big deal, but I'd suggest clarifying with "...source who said that Crist "just blew..." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...viewed the extension of hours as an infringement..." An infringement on/of what? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "...according to Ed Henry, reporter for CNN." Is this necessary? I'd assume by its presence that there was some debate over whether or not he left the rally and did not show up for previously scheduled interviews, and that that's why the source of the allegations needs to be identified; if that's not the case, this should go. If that is the case, the dispute should be made clear in the interests of NPOV. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) "during this same interview Crist also made reference to two recent mechanical problems and emergency landings that took place while he was aboard the airplane used to transport him around Florida for state business." This comes right out of left field, and appears to have nothing to do with the section in which it's found. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

The referencing in this article needs a great deal of work in both form and substance to reach GA standards. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Minor issues

References 9, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 59, 62, 63, 64, 65, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 153, and 154 are bare references, and should be templated for consistency. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC) References 68 is missing many parameters. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Quite a few of the references lack accessdate parameters. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Quite a few of the references to websites are dead links: [11] Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Reference 41 is just a duplicate of reference 40. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Reference 61 does not appear to support the material it's supposed to. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) I'd suggest simply eliminating references 83, 84, 93, 103, and 121, which are low quality references that are in there supporting material already supported by much higher quality references. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Reference 121 appears to be a copyright violation. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) There are quite a few places in which multiple references are provided for statements that likely only need one. I'd suggest trimming these down, especially given how many of them are dead links anyway. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC) There are a fair number of primary sources, often affiliated with Crist himself. While this isn't strictly forbidden, it's certainly undesirable; if something is important enough to include in the Wikipedia article, why hasn't it received any media coverage? Examples: "Later that month, in June 2008, Crist gave a keynote address at the "Serve to Preserve" Global Climate Change Summit he hosted in Florida.", "Crist's speech at the RGA conference entitled "Listen to the Voters and Serve" included his sentiments on how the GOP should evolve." Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "Often mispronounced today as "Christ"..." This is not cited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "...his surname had originally been "Christodoulou"." The reference provided states that this was the original family name, but not that it was ever Charlie Crist's name. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "...to Dr. Charlie Crist Sr., an American physician of Greek Cypriot descent, and Nancy Lee, of Scotch-Irish American descent." Not cited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "...and graduated from St. Petersburg High School in 1974." This is supported by reference3, which should probably be moved to the end of the sentence. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "He attended Wake Forest University for two years, where he played quarterback for the Wake Forest Demon Deacons football team. Crist earned his undergraduate degree from Florida State University where he was elected Vice President of the student body and was a member of the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity. He received his law degree from the Cumberland School of Law in Alabama." No apparent citations for any of this (I suspect it is supported by references, but footnotes need to be included so it's clear exactly which references are supporting which material). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) References 5 and 6 appear to be identical. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC) In most cases, you have footnotes appearing after punctuation, but in some cases they appear before. Either is acceptable, but an article should be consistent in which style it uses. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC) Some of these are fixed, some are not. Formatting refs is a work in progress. The ref numbering referred to above changed pretty quickly, so I'll address the general problems but may miss some that were specifically noted. Regarding ref placement, I usually put the ref before a comma but after a period. Seems pretty consistent; a search for "]." returned nothing, and for ",[" also nothing. Nathan T 20:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Significant problems

"Supporters of his candidacy included America's Most Wanted host John Walsh, who publicly filed Crist's gubernatorial candidacy paperwork, citing his work with the Center for Missing and Exploited Children." Uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist also led his opponents in fundraising throughout the campaign, but his activities were occasionally controversial. One of Crist's backers was real estate mogul Donald Trump, whose guests at a Crist fundraiser included a former Ukrainian official in the country illegally, as well as the owner of a company under investigation by Crist's office. Crist later returned the donations from the companies under investigation, while the Ukrainian official's fee was paid by another guest. Further controversy set in, however, when ethics complaints were filed against Crist and his chief of staff for failing to investigate a major donor, personnel firm Convergys, that has been plagued by lawsuits and prison sentences for its role in the inadequate protection of state employees' social security numbers." Uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "$3,000 subsidies to adoptive parents and $5,000 subsidies to foster parents; advocation of parent choice and strict, standardized testing in education; prescription drug tracking for assurance of safety and proper health care; less expensive homeowners insurance; report cards for insurance companies; abolition of Citizens Insurance; support for right to die including respect for living wills; legal protection in eminent domain cases; lawsuit reform through elimination of joint and several liability; property tax flexibility; support for Florida's Defense of Marriage Act;...efforts to stop the "clear pattern of growth" in hate crimes; support for closed borders with promotion of legal immigration; opposition to further statewide expansion of legal gambling; and support for environmental protections such as a ban on off shore oil drilling near Florida's coastline." Uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist was the first Republican governor to accept the state's National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) invitation to a convention..." Uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "The day before the Florida general election, Crist chose to hold a campaign event with McCain in Jacksonville, Florida rather than attend a Pensacola, Florida rally with President George W. Bush." Uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who had also campaigned for Crist during the gubernatorial election, had hoped to secure his endorsement to support a campaign strategy that relied on winning the Florida primary." Uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "In May 2008, Crist, along with Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, attended a Memorial Day weekend at Senator John McCain's Sedona, Arizona home. Although the McCain campaign denied the gathering was an opportunity to consider a vice presidential candidate, several press outlets reported that the invited guests were indeed being considered for the number two spot on the Republican ticket. Three months later, in August 2008, Alaska governor Sarah Palin was chosen by McCain for the position." This passage is followed by three references which, taken together, seem to support all of this material. However, two of the three references are about the meeting with the three hopefuls, while the third is about Palin's suggestion. I'd recommend that the first two footnotes be moved to the end of the penultimate sentence, for greater clarity of referencing. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "Various media outlets and observers speculated that Crist made the decision out of vindictiveness toward McCain for snubbing him for the vice presidential position, or to position himself for re-election in 2010." Appears to be unreferenced. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "Crist abruptly left a poorly-attended McCain rally in Tampa on the last day of the race..." Appears to be uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC) "...there was widespread speculation about the tone of the Republican Governors meeting." Appears uncited. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC) The "Electoral history" section needs a reference. Steve Smith (talk)

Is it broad in its coverage?

• Could the election results for Attorney General not also be included in the "Electoral history" section? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
• The "Record as governor" section seems somewhat sparse to me; being governor seems to be his primary claim to notability, but this section is shorter than the "Political activities" section, and not really that much longer than the section dealing with his election as governor. Are you sure that it covers all major aspects of his time as governor? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
• We're told that he was endorsed for attorney general based on his past work with the Center for Missing and Exploited Children, but to that point in the article we haven't heard anything about that work. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "A lawsuit stemming from the Ponzi scheme and investment scandal alleges that Crist and other state regulators failed to protect investors, and also cites campaign contributions." This could use some elaboration, among other reasons to address the current state of this lawsuit and whether Crist is personally named as a defendant. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "During the fall of 2006, Crist consistently led Democratic opponent Jim Davis in statewide opinion polling and so opted to skip a politically risky appearance with President George W. Bush. Crist had reasoned that the Pensacola area was already firmly in his camp..." Was this appearance scheduled to take place in Penascola? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "Further controversy set in, however, when ethics complaints were filed against Crist and his chief of staff for failing to investigate a major donor, personnel firm Convergys, that has been plagued by lawsuits and prison sentences for its role in the inadequate protection of state employees' social security numbers." What was the result of these complaints? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "Crist, one of the more popular Florida governors[34], has taken generally conservative positions on many social policy issues while also receiving criticism from time to time from Florida Republicans for his fiscal approach, for urging bipartisan cooperation - particularly with President Barack Obama, and for the rigor (or lack thereof) of his official schedule." Some of this needs some elaboration, specifically the bits about urging bipartisan cooperation and the lack of rigor in his schedule. This elaboration can either come here or later in the section. If any of these issues are not significant enough to be elaborated on, they're probably not significant enough to be mentioned. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• The bit on the extension of early voting hours needs to be reworked; it's not clear to me, as a reader, why this move was seen to hurt McCain, and that seems to be a critical part of it. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
• "...their disapproval of how Palin's participation in the conference was handled." This needs elaboration. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it neutral?

Generally quite good (and I've read the recent discussions on the talk page). Minor qualms:

• I don't think that the treatment of his two failed bar exams. First of all, I'm not convinced that it's important to include. If it is, I'd suggest dedicating a sentence to it, rather than have what appears to be a snide parenthetical aside. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "...whose job-approval rating stood at 34 percent nationally and merely 29 percent within Florida." I'd suggest losing "merely"; the numbers speak for themselves, and there's no need for editorializing adverbs. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• The gubernatorial campaign section seems to me to give undue weight to Crist's ethics woes and the Dozier stuff - a single sentence about polling, nothing about the results, very little about Crist's interaction with his opponent...I think what's in there now is appropriate (i.e. no need to take anything out), but I think if you want that large a section on the campaign you need to add other information for balance (and of course if it gets too long, you can hive some of the information off to the election article itself, as long as you maintain balance when doing so). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• The paragraph about Crist's 2006 platform reads as if it was lifted straight from his brochure. For example, "Pro-life and pro-family" is more rhetoric than a substantive statement of position, "...for assurance of safety and proper health care" doesn't really mean anything, and "parent choice" needs elaboration. I'd suggest a complete rewrite of that sentence. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "...particularly on environmental policy, an important issue in Florida." I think just stating that this issue is important without explaining why is somewhat POV (the implication is that it's more important for Florida than for other states, which I presume is because so much of Florida stands to be underwater if the icecaps melt, but this should be spelled out and cited). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "Continuing in a role of environmental advocacy..." This seems fairly POV to me. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 22:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
• "A few short months later..." Who says these were short months? Were they all Februaries? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
• "Crist emphatically stated..." The use of the adverb seems POV. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
• "Crist abruptly left..." Here too. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 00:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it stable?

Yes - one little revert a few days ago, but the record of the article overall is clearly one of stability. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

Both images are good choices and verifiably in the public domain. The only niggling issue is that the caption of the photo of Crist in Brazil ends with a period even though it is not a complete sentence, which is a no-no under WP:CAPTION#Wording. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

First Black Governor?

The article states "and has been described as the state's "first black governor."" According to whom? What is the source for this? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.13.195 (talk) 22:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Crist Party Affiliation

Hello. I am a regular user of Wikipedia, and came across something on the Charlie Crist page that I feel needs to be addressed. Here is an exchange I had with a Wikipedia staff member:

Bushin2016 (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I found a second source, the Orlando Sentinel that also says he intends to run as an independent but remain a registered Republican and I revised the article with this information. If this changes, it will have to be updated again. 5Q5 (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about reverting you a minute ago, I was trying to respond. As far as I can tell that is the case: Crist himself is staying a Republican but is not going to be running as one. That is different than someone who is a registered independent.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Gov. Crist has now changed his party affiliation to NPA (no party affiliation). Source. --Kudzu1 (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Include past affiliation?

I think that Crist's until-recent affiliation as a Republican should be noted in this article's infobox, as well as his current no-party status. The years he was registered as a Republican should also be included. For examples of this concept being used in other articles, refer to:

• Lowell P. Weicker, Jr.
• Strom Thurmond
• Ronald Reagan
• Arlen Spector

--Sgt. R.K. Blue (talk) 09:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this should be done. Your suggestion, go ahead. 5Q5 (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I would, but I don't have the year that Crist first registered as a Republican. I am not a Floridian, I just thought that adding his past affiliation would be of benefit to the article and be consistent with articles of others who have switched parties, as listed above. Whoever wants to make this addition, please feel free to do so. --Sgt. R.K. Blue (talk) 05:31, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Resolved: It appears that an editor has included a timeline of his party affiliations in the infobox. 5Q5 (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Critics of Crist's Senate run

I want to store these here in case the guy wins, or if he is a presidential or vp candidate someday, and they could be used to source a line. 5Q5 (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Why Crist is done. ... Florida Gov. Charlie Crist is the saddest of political spectacles.

— Charles Hurt, New York Post, April 30, 2010. Column name: Inside Washington, Columnist: Charles Hurt, page 10

T is for triumph in Crist cross. As an independent, Gov. Charlie Crist is finished.

— Rich Lowry, New York Post, May 1, 2010. Column name: Rich Lowry, page 17