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September 2

Wieboldt's Christmas ornament

01:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)Woodguy 44 (talk)I read your article about Wieboldt's Department stores in Chicago. I grew up in Chicago near their store on 63rd. st. just east of Halstead. Like the article said Wieboldt's sponsered a radio show between Thangsgiving and Christmas called " The Cinamon Bear" and was about his quest to get back the star that belonged on top of his Christmas tree. I remember going to Wieboldt's to see Santa Claus and they gave us a silver star ornament that could be hung on your Christmas tree. It was made from shinny metal foil and was folded so that when opened it had like 6 fins with a string at the top that you could hang it on your Christmas Tree. Does anybody know what I'm referring to and possibly where I could find one of these stars? Thanks, Woodguy 44

Have you tried eBay? I did a google search, and couldn't find anything about the star for sale anywhere (though LOTS of sites recount the story of the Cinnamon Bear). However, eBay is usually pretty good for people shopping for collectables. --Jayron32 02:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

What are strange dry circles on the eye called?

I know the reference desk has a policy against medical questions, but this is just curiosity, not medical advice. I was wondering if someone could tell me what dried circles of skin on the eyelid are called, like this: http://i.imgur.com/oQInP.jpg . The Goggles Do Nothing (talk) 03:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a small area of Keratoderma, or hardened skin. Some of these conditions are horrifyingly disfiguring, and other times rather innocuous. --Jayron32 03:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Is self-advertisement appropriate in article?

Hello, I cannot find online documentation in Wiki to answer my question.

Is self-advertisement appropriate in an article? Specifically, I found an article on a game which is hundreds of years old, and at the bottom of the article a manufacturer has noted that the game is available for purchase through them.

Is that kind of self-advertisement, in an article about a centuries-old game, allowed? Or is it against Wiki policy to include such self-advertisement?

What is the Wiki policy on this?

I can give more specific details re the above case, but I think the general description of this problem, my question, is probably good enough. Please respond.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.26.209.145 (talk) 14:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It is against policy and should be removed. Marnanel (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I am not a Wiki author or contributor. Is there a procedure to follow to properly report the policy violation so the self-advertisement is reviewed for removal? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.26.209.145 (talk) 15:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC) You can remove it by clicking "edit" in the header. If you prefer, tell us the name of the page and one of us will remove it. Marnanel (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC) Yes, please remove it for me, thank you. page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanorona External links - NestorGames sells a portable version of Fanorona. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 15:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. The same user made another link in another game article, saying the manufacturing company "re-edited" (republished) the partcular game this year. http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Epaminondas_(game)&diff=363790337&oldid=320648958 Doesn't this also amount to self-promotion/advertising? (If so could you also remove. Thank you.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 22:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC) Here is the specific text - "It has been re-edited in 2010 by NestorGames." NestorGames is a commercial website selling the game for profit - http://www.nestorgames.com/ and http://www.nestorgames.com/epaminondas_detail.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 05:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

It looks like this has been resolved. In the future, the correct place to report problems of this nature is at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Thanks for your vigilance in this regard. --Jayron32 05:50, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Jayron, please explain what resolution? Also please read above where I inquired what is proper procedure, and the answer I received. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 23:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Please read this entire entry. There are two reported items. The second item is unresolved. Here it is repeated below.

The same user made another link in another game article, saying the manufacturing company "re-edited" (republished) the partcular game this year. http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Epaminondas Here is the specific text - "It has been re-edited in 2010 by NestorGames." NestorGames is a commercial website selling the game for profit - http://www.nestorgames.com/ and http://www.nestorgames.com/epaminondas_detail.html Doesn't this also amount to self-promotion/advertising? (If so could you also remove. Thank you.)

This is the wrong forum for this. I cannot say that any plainer. People who patrol this message board do not, as a matter of course, usually deal with these issues. Wikipedia has a forum which is expressly for dealing with this problem. It is called Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. If you are uncomfortable with fixing the problem yourself, you need to start a thread at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, not here. This board is for answering questions using information from Wikipedia articles. If you are having problems with somebody spamming articles, go to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. --Jayron32 02:58, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

You can fix it yourself by editing the article and removing the advertisement. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

September 3

Weekend vs Weekday weddings

I'm living in Northern Ireland, but originally from Canada. I looked at Wedding and White Wedding but I didn't see this in either.

Recently a student told me he had done less than usual work this week because a friend had gotten married on Monday. Monday???? He was surprised at my shock. He told me that here all or most weddings happen on weekdays! Is this really true? In North America, it is very strange for someone to get married on a weekday. In what areas of the Western world is a weekday wedding normal? Is it correlated with religiosity? moink (talk) 08:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

All eight of the weddings I went to last year in Australia were on weekends, most of them on Saturdays. I haven't heard of any weddings other than very small registry-only weddings happening on weekdays. Those are the ones where the couple and a few friends go to the registry office and get married and then they have dinner together. Steewi (talk) 09:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Saturday wedding is usually just for the convenience of the guests. I don't know of any religious reason (here in northern England) against a weekday wedding, and I have attended a wedding held as part of a normal Sunday religious service. These days, people just do what seems convenient, and if the guests can be free on weekdays, then why not? However, employers tend to be less "understanding" about allowing a day off for a wedding than they would be for a funeral. Dbfirs 09:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Steewi's observations of the Australian wedding scene. HiLo48 (talk) 09:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about religiosity was because when I told the student most people married on the weekend where I come from, he replied "Churches are very busy places on weekends" which is not true in my experience of a tiny, sparsely-attended church, but may be true in a country where a church may traditionally be a central gathering place for a community. moink (talk) 09:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Haven't heard of a weekday wedding either - they are normally held on Saturdays here in Slovenia, to allow for the hangover next day :) Incidentally, I was equally surprised to hear that in the US, presidential elections are held on Tuesdays. That just strikes me as completely unpractical, and as far as I can tell, most countries vote on Sundays. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not that big a deal. Voting doesn't take very long, and the locations are usually quite convenient. The polls are open long enough that unless you have a very long workday, you should be able to vote either on your way in to work or on your way home — and if you can't, there are laws giving you time off to vote.

Certainly, it's not absurd that you'd get a different mix of voters on a different day, which is why any change would be contentious. --Trovatore (talk) 04:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, as to Sunday — that would have been problematic for religious reasons. --Trovatore (talk) 04:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Elections in the UK are held on Thursdays. See also Election Day (politics). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

It is cheaper and as venue hire and catering etc., cost so much, it makes a big difference for low income families. Also, everybody it seems to me, likes an excuse for a day off work. After all, aren't they so fond of saying, “we work for you in order to live, rather than live in order to work for you”.--Aspro (talk) 09:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I tend to think that the live to work/work to live conundrum is not just applicable to low income people but equally applicable to people at all income levels. Bus stop (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Some good friends of mine got married on a Friday in the UK. They certainly weren't low income and it was a big church wedding. I think they just did it to be different. I resented having to take the day off work, but I did it anyway. This is the only time I've ever come across a wedding that didn't take place on a Saturday. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 09:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Something else I forgot to mention is that quite a few shift workers find it easier to get time off during the week. Here is a typical example: [1]--Aspro (talk) 10:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

(This is the 2nd time in as many days that I've had occasion to refer to my wedding in a Russian Orthodox Church, having never previously mentioned it in my 6-odd years here. Odd.) My fiancee and I very much wanted our wedding to be on a Saturday, for all sorts of practical reasons. But the priest wouldn't allow it, because of some religious feast that day, and the only other available day was the following day, the Sunday. So Sunday it was. In about 6 weeks I'm going to a wedding on a Wednesday. The bride chose the anniversary of her mother's death, which this year happens to fall on a Wednesday. That will be a first for me. And probably a last. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Jack, not to get overly personal, but you've been fairly open about these things...do you mean your fiance? --Trovatore (talk) 20:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Not at all, Trovatore, and thanks for your interest. I was married to a woman for 21 years (we were together for 15 of those years). I'm the father of 2 grown sons. I've been a step-father, an adoptive father, and a biological father. Not a grandfather yet - as far as I know. Persons of the male persuasion interest me more these days. I have no intention of ever marrying again, and neither does my partner, but if we ever did, we couldn't do it in Canada because he married an American guy there and they've never divorced. He was also previously married to a woman, and has kids. Gets complicated, doesn't it. I should also say that the idea of 2 males marrying in a Russian Orthodox Church is one of the more unlikely mental pictures I've had in many a long year. :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

How different, how very different, from the home-life of our own dear Queen.... DuncanHill (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

No, that's very true; I had skipped over the part in small font. I was assuming it was Episcopal or something. --Trovatore (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The only weekday wedding I have been to was at a judge's office. All church weddings have been on Saturday or Sunday, so that nearby guests could attend without taking a day off work. A few weddings, such as those involving the very rich, involve transporting family and friends to some vacation destination; then everyone can consider it a vacation and take a few days off, so the time of week makes little difference. Edison (talk) 14:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

(after ec)My second wedding took place on a Friday because we wanted to have a weekend away. My third wedding took place on a Wednesday, because it was the day before my husband's place of work moved to a new building, and all leave had been cancelled for six weeks. In the UK you can get married any day, between the hours of 9 and 5. (Now that's the bit that sucks - imagine how lovely a summer evening wedding could be...) Actually, what does surprise me is that your friend got married on a Bank Holiday, unless it's not a Bank Holiday in NI. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to a wedding today (a Friday), and mine's on a Friday too, it's not uncommon at all, at least in Canada (or maybe just Ontario...or maybe just around here). They are usually on Saturdays though. I know it's slightly cheaper to book a wedding venue on a Friday, because more people want one for a Saturday. If you just get married at city hall you can do that any day. I don't recall seeing a fancy wedding on any other day, except there was once a wedding on a Sunday at the Portuguese church down the street...I assume that was because that church has like 4 weddings every Saturday. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

In the Church of England, we don't do weddings on Sunday - or at least I've never heard of it. A friend's church wedding a few weeks ago was on a Friday and the reception was on Saturday. Alansplodge (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I had a great big wedding on a Thursday -- we picked the date and it just happened to be a weekday; it sure was a lot easier to coordinate everything for a day when none of the service providers had competing weddings. (We started the planning in May for an August wedding. The reactions were consistent: "What? So soon? No way! Oh wait, a Thursday? Great!" --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 17:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

UK here too, and I've been to a couple of Friday weddings. Saturdays being peak wedding days, hotels are inclined to offer better deals for the reception if you're prepared to accept a weekday when they wouldn't normally get such an event, and it's easier to arrange at relatively short notice, whereas Saturdays can be booked up a year in advance, or even more. Weddings in the middle of the working week may make it hard for some guests to attend, so a Friday wedding and a long weekend seem to be a reasonably popular compromise. This article states that you can get married in a properly licensed place on any day of the week, including Sundays and Bank and Public holidays and at any time between 8am & 6pm (subject to being able to arrange the attendance of a registrar to marry you), but points out that it is difficult to arrange a Sunday wedding in church because of the regular services scheduled on that day. Karenjc 18:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Friday specifically traditionally considered an inauspicious day for doing anything important? The two specific examples I had in mind were setting sail, and getting married. Most people might think they're not superstitious, not really, but when it comes to something that important, why take a chance? If Friday weddings are as common as people are saying, maybe it means that a lot of people just haven't heard of the superstition. --Trovatore (talk) 19:57, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Well I'd never heard of it until now, but then I like the number 13, and I walk under ladders (when there isn't anyone at the top to drop things on my head)! Dbfirs 06:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd heard that Friday was considered unlucky for setting sail, but not for anything else other than the general "Friday 13th" association - certainly never heard of it being unlucky for weddings. Me, I love flying on Friday 13th (as I did in August, for example). Shorter queues, half-empty planes and the chance of getting a row of seats to yourself - superstition is a lovely thing! Karenjc 10:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Firing clay pottery in a charcoal BBQ grill

Are there any reasons this would likely not succeed in firing the clay properly? It's just a standard grill like the red one in the picture at Weber-Stephen Products Co.. Thanks. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 13:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Those grills can get up to about 260 degrees C, while pottery needs around 1000 degrees. --Sean 14:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The bottom end of firing temperatures (very low-fire) that will produce a glaze is 1112°F (605°C) to 1556°F (850°C)[2]. A kettle BBQ might get up to 600°F if you really push it, but you'll ruin the grill if it gets much hotter than that - the finish will be ruined at least, and the aluminum parts will melt around 1220°F. High-fired temperatures approach the melting point of steel around 2500°. You will also have severe issues with temperature control and consistency, especially since you'll have to open it up all the time to shovel in more charcoal. You need a kiln of some sort, with interior materials that can withstand the heat and retain it to provide an even heat distribution, preferably after you've pre-heated it to keep from having to open once you've put in the ware. Acroterion _(talk) 14:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I see. Well, I just found out the local hobby shop sells oven-bake clay and my stuff will only be for display, so I guess I won't need a kiln anyway. Thanks. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 15:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, baking clay requires a much lower temperature than firing pottery. The reply assumed that you needed the latter. Dbfirs 06:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Hanging things from a plastered ceiling

My garage is small but has a high ceiling, and I'd like to put up a hanging rack for my bike. Trouble is, the previous tenant had the ceiling plastered. I assume there must be wooden beams above that, holding up my lounge floor, but I don't know exactly where. Is there anything I can do to find out, other than drilling randomly into the plaster until I hit one? My landlord is fine with me doing the work, but it's at my risk if I wreck the house. He never comes over and didn't know the plastering had been done until I told him. 86.138.73.152 (talk) 14:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on everything, including stud finders. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! 86.138.73.152 (talk) 14:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I never heard of a stud finder with a RADAR system in it. Is that for real? Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Whatever you do, don't use toggle bolts, plastic expansion anchors or those screw-in drywall anchors - it sounds like you already know that. Also, don't use nails - nails want to be loaded in shear - perpendicular to their length), not in withdrawal, or drywall screws (flimsy). Heavy decking screws would work. Often you can get a good sense of a joist location and direction from tapping gently with a hammer and listening. The next joist will be about 16" over. If you miss with a screw, some spackle usually is sufficient to fill a screw hole, especially if it's way up there. Acroterion _(talk) 14:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

wheels

can i put 195/55/r15 wheels from a citreon xsara onto my volvo s40 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.114.7.238 (talk) 16:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Which version and engine number size is the S40? --Ouro (blah blah) 16:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing stops you putting any wheels on your Volvo. You may of course compromise the handling, braking etc. which would affect your safety. Also, if the wheels are a drastically different size from the originals, your speedometer and mileage readings will be affected. One thing to consider is whether the spacing of the nuts on the two sets of wheels are the same (otherwise you physically wouldn't be able to line up the holes in your Xsara wheels with the screw thread things on the wheel hub of the Volvo). Most important question, what is the current size of the wheels on your Volvo, and what are the speed ratings of the different sets of tyres? If you need help our article on tire code should let you know what to look for. What are the recommended wheel and tyre sizes for the Volvo (in the owner's manual)? Without this info we're just guessing. Zunaid 19:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Different car manufacturers have different setups to how wheels are secured and not all are compatible. I had a Nissan with a dubious spare-wheel that was on the wrong 'rim' and therefore would not fit my car (e.g. it had 4 holes where my nissan had 5 - if memory serves). A quick search online suggests (from the images) that Volvo wheels have 5 bolts in their 'bolt circle' and Citroen 4 bolts (link http://www.alloywheelspin.co.uk/volvo-alloys-21-c.asp and http://www.alloywheelspin.co.uk/citroen-alloy-wheels-26-c.asp) i'm not sure whether that precludes them being fitted (it may be that they align but one hole isn't filled but your best bet is to call a local garage and ask. ny156uk (talk) 22:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

This page might be of use http://www.carlsalter.com/wheel_fitments.html - it says for Citroen Xsara it is 4 x 108 (PCD) 15-20 offset and 65.1 bore - whereas the Volvo S40 is 4 x 114 (PCD) 35-42 offset and 67.1 bore ny156uk (talk) 23:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Lucy Page Mercer Rutherfurd

Why was she buried in Tranquility Cemetery? "Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd died of leukemia in New York City in 1948 at the age of 57. She was interred in Tranquility Cemetery in the Tranquility section of Green Township, New Jersey".

Residents of Great Meadows New Jersey (88 years old and such) remember the special train and train car that would pass on the Lehigh and Hudson River railroad to Allamuchy. FDR going to see a friend. So, her bio says she lived in South Carolina, died in New York,,,what is the New Jersey connection here...Why no mention of the Estate in Tranquility or Allimuchly? She was meeting FDR at the New Jersey estate and what was the connection. Her family was from Virginia so why not be buried in Virginia if not South Carolina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.150.146 (talk) 20:51, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

September 4

Wrong information taught in grammar school?

Resolved

 – When you grow up you think for yourself. Before then people try and help you along. Re-ask if there's a factual point you're curious about. Shadowjams (talk) 04:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey all. I understand that sometimes you might tell children things that are simplifications or just wrong because it would take too long to explain otherwise, or the teacher doesn't understand it him/herself. I remember when I was in elementary school they told me pi=3.14, e=2.7 and people thought the world was flat in Columbus' day. But why do people also tell students things that are untrue, but not simplifications? {EDIT] OK, I thought of a better example (you can see the original @). I remember in fifth grade we were taught that communism is all bad and evil, and its dogma advocates killing everyone who does not agree and forcing people to work on collectives and taking everyone's property so that the corrupt governers can be rich. This naturally brought up the question, then why did people support it and even vote for it? In high school, we learned that communism actually advocates creating a perfect society where the public owns everything and works for the good of society rather than for their own good. So this would answer the question of why it was appealing, but my teachers firmly denied that there was anything that could be appealing to anybody about communism. (PS: I didn't walk around thinking this until high school, of course, but a fair number of my peers did (and still do(!))) 99.13.222.181 (talk) 23:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC) PS I read your article lie to children and I found it interesting but (and no offense!) not really satisfying.

Not a question as much as a prompt for debate. Wrong forum.

I think it's like the bit in A Few Good Men: Col. Nathan R. Jessep: You want answers? Lt. Daniel Kaffee: I think I'm entitled. Col. Nathan R. Jessep: You want answers?! Lt. Daniel Kaffee: I want the truth! Col. Nathan R. Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Looie496 (talk) 00:07, 4 September 2010 (UTC) I think it's like the bit in Scarface: Al Pacino: I'd kill a communist for fun, for a (reward) I will carve him up real nice ! Well, a very cynical view is to say that the role of public school in the United States, for example, is primarily to try and teach people to be "ideal Americans" in a very broad sense, and during the Cold War in particular this involved teaching things about the nastiness of Communists. One might, as well, question the quality of your teachers. Did they have a good reason for disliking it, or were they just going off of what they had been taught? One can't know about your particular situation, but if my American public school education was any indication, high quality teaching is not as common as we'd like it to be. (Though my teachers were not quite so blunt as what you are describing, in part because Communism was mostly a dead-letter question by that point.) If I were teaching elementary school, or high school, I would probably ideally want to show that the world is a pretty complicated place, full of grays rather than black-and-whites, but would that really work, would it resonate, would it get me in trouble? --Mr.98 (talk) 00:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC) The image about communism in your mind seems to be rather glorified. Where in the world has it created perfect society ? Saying what it "advocates" is rather gullible - this was the way they brought up Nazism, which advocated a perfect society (by killing all the Jews). The promoters of fundamentalism Islam also sell this kind of crap - they can give you a perfect society by putting a forced end to alcoholism, homosexuality, teenage pregnancy and adultery etc. Beware the people who promise you a perfect society. When they taught you that " its dogma advocates killing everyone who does not agree and forcing people to work on collectives and taking everyone's property so that the corrupt governers can be rich" they, I think, were telling you the truth, a bitter truth. Please look at history - the people Stalin has put to death for not agreeing with him ( any unbiased historian will agree he has broken the Hitler's record !) . The kind of industrial scale atrocities they did in China - Great Leap Forward and all that bullshit. Now there are most gruesome killings going on in India by China-supported communist militants.  Jon Ascton  (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Jon, you are soapboxing. Please stop it. Marnanel (talk) 03:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC) He's right, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Whether he's right or wrong, he needs to stop. Marnanel (talk) 04:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Look carefully, the question itself is a cleverly disguised pro-Communism call ! The OP is not actually concerned with truths told at school or anything, all that is just an excuse so that he could come down to a chance to praise communism which is what his hidden agenda is (it would be soapboxing if done directly). But no one notices it, on the contrary my response (which exposed it) was "soapboxing". Good judgment !  Jon Ascton  (talk) 04:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC) How deliciously ironic. The OP asks: "So why do grownups think that little children need to have things simplified for them so they tell them that the world is black-and-white, and it's only later in life that these children find out that the world is really all sorts of shades of gray?" and you two go: "What? Gray? How can you say that, it's obviously black-and-white!" TomorrowTime (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Stalin killed around 6 million of his countrymen. The reality of communism was pretty much black-and-white to them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Oh Bugs, are you even trying? Come on, just try to be a critical thinker here. Stalinism is not the same thing as Communism, and people don't vote in Communism because they want Stalinism. And yes, they have, in the past, voted in or otherwise been very enthusiastic about Communism. The OP is really saying, "why don't teachers tell us a balanced account?", which doesn't mean "Hooray for Communism!" either. It means, "Well, here is what people wanted out of Communism, here are the wrongs they thought it would redress (Tsar Nicholas weren't no saint!), but here are what the outcomes have been." A perfectly mature discussion, more mature than the one we are having on here, because of you and Jon being so knee-jerk and ridiculously dogmatic. (I've no desire to live in a Communist society, and I think historically the real deficits to its theory and practice are pretty clear, but that doesn't mean I can't understand why people wanted it, or agree that the wrongs of capitalism can be pretty egregious as well.) Just because you can see there are two sides to something doesn't mean you have to agree with both sides equally, and that's what's really at issue here. I'm surprised that both of you could so perfectly repeat the same old dogmas without being critical about them in the slightest. You'd be the worse kind of teacher for someone on this subject, because you would, like the teachers of the OP, give a badly reasoned dogma that, once the student learned to think for themselves, would probably send them in the other direction. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC) See Lies My Teacher Told Me Everard Proudfoot (talk) 02:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC) The first thing to realize is that the teacher may not even realize what they are saying is wrong. When teaching others, people repeat what they themselves taught, not knowing it's incorrect. A bunch of it is that we (sensibly) don't require a Math Ph.D. to teach Math to elementary school students, and more of it is due to the state of knowledge changing since teachers started teaching. (This will rarely affect core curricula, as teachers take refresher courses, but you'll see it in ancillary information which a teacher recalls from their schooling.) Another part of it is the natural credulousness of children. The teacher may know that pi isn't exactly 3.14, and may even use careful wording when the value is first introduced, but "In this class, we use 3.14 for pi", while not incorrect, may be a subtle distinction which is lost on a 12 year-old. In addition, after answering the same question a dozen times, the phrase gets shortened for convenience to "pi is 3.14". So even if the abbreviation is simply a convenience specifically for the class, after a long time using it, it gets drilled into the child's head as the absolute truth. Regarding communism - that one's pure propaganda, but a widely held one. See Red Scare and McCarthyism. There was actually a period of time in the US where saying *anything* good about Communism could get someone (especially a teacher) fired. Demonizing and dehumanizing "the enemy" is an old practice in conflicts, but has the unfortunate side effect of lasting long after the conflict is over. -- 174.21.233.249 (talk) 02:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC) What a can of worms this could open. I wonder where the OP got the idea that Lenin had been elected. I'll just stick with the way Will Rogers described what Communist Russia was like compared with the USA: "In Russia, they ain't got no income tax! But they ain't got no income!" And a corollary by Frank Zappa: "Communism doesn't work, because people like to own stuff." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Bugs, the OP never said that "Lenin had been elected". I know it's hard for you, but can you please stop lying to support your paranoid fantasies? DuncanHill (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC) What is need of useless things like income etc. when you are living in a heaven ?  Jon Ascton  (talk) 03:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Communist Russia was heaven? Think again, comrade. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Bugs, stop trolling. If you don't have anything to add other than "NUH-UH!", don't bother. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC) 98, stop trolling. If you don't have anything to add other than sniping, don't bother. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC) No, this is not going to be a trolling event where we get to superficially argue back and forth about whether communism was great or awful or really awful. I don't see a lot of real non-opinion based question being asked here. The book link is excellent though (even though I know nothing about that book, I've only heard about it). Shadowjams (talk) 04:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Quite obviously wrong information is taught in schools, usually through outdated text books who's information has been proved wrong through science, or incompetent teachers. RECYCLED FIRE (talk) 14:57, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Who is J. E. Hoover?

The only information I have on him is that he served in the pacific front during WWII. J. E. Hoover --Arima (talk) 05:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, that isn't the only information you have, is it? I googled for the set of names listed in that picture, and found them all at this list of 1940 Navy commanders, where his position is described as "Chief of Staff, Commander Aircraft, Battle Force", although his name is listed there as John H. Hoover. I'm pretty sure it's him because the other names in the picture are there up to and including the initials. This article says that he was a Rear Admiral and gives more information about what he did. Looie496 (talk) 06:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

• See also this query from User:Arima (talk) about six months ago: Category talk:United States Navy admirals#Looking for a J.E. Hoover —— Shakescene (talk) 06:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Help Required on Humanitarian Ground

I being a retired man, will be highly obliged if you could kindly arrange me to get some ONLINE DATA ENTRY or DATA EDITING or FORM FILLING JOBS etc. If yes pl. let me know, then I will come back with the details. V N Krishnaswamy, INDIA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.92.77.212 (talk) 08:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

[Deleted extraneous opening space to reformat your text to fit the page.] 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:11, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia compiled by online volunteers. It doesn't offer any jobs of the type you describe, and it has no relationship with any employers seeking staff. Your best bet is to check employment agencies nearer home or Google for job vacancies. Good luck. Karenjc 15:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I could provide exactly the job you are looking for. Please contact me at: IF you really need it - check page history, actual email removed It is a honest job and you will be secured on payment part. But not many hours per week. 70.52.186.74 (talk) 22:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Birthers Evidence

Birthers seem to focus on Barack Obama's birth certificate to prove he was born outside of the United States and thus ineligible to be President. Wouldn't his mother's passport be all that is needed to show he was born in Kenya? Ostensibly she was present at his birth. Are passports part of the public record? Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

There are many things that can affect eligibilty using birth location. John McCain, for example, was not born in the US, yet was qualified for the presidency. Even if Obama was not born on US soil, he still could have qualified, so the whole debate is silly. So even if her passport showed that they were in Kenya, that wouldn't necessarily mean he wasn't born a US citizen, as long as she herself was a US citizen under the appropriate condtions. [aaronite =]24.83.104.67 (talk) 18:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

It's an interesting question, in the abstract, whether a person born outside the US to parents who are US citizens meet the "natural-born citizen" requirement. Of course it doesn't apply to Obama. But it's also never actually been tested. The McCain case was a bit different because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which was US territory at the time (though there have been claims that he was actually born in an off-base hospital in Panamanian territory).

Even so, even the McCain case has never actually been tested. The Senate voted unanimously that he met the requirement, but it's not clear that they have the authority to make that finding. In fact it's not clear (at least to me) who does have the authority to make it, nor how you would even proceed to bring a challenge against a candidate on those grounds. Maybe you'd have to wait until he had been elected, and then challenge him in Congress, when the electoral ballots are being counted. --Trovatore (talk) 20:32, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

There's at least one similar case to McCain in modern history - Barry Goldwater, born in the Arizona Territory pre-statehood, ran for president in '64. I believe it passed entirely unremarked upon at the time; no-one seemed to think it might cause a problem. Shimgray | talk | 21:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The birthers are a bunch of reactionary conspiracy theorists who masquerade their racism as concern for the law. I doubt they would accept that Obama was born in Hawaii even if presented with a time machine and an opportunity to witness the event. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

gawd, please don't give them a time machine! --Ludwigs2 18:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Only if it's locked on "fast-forward". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Passports are relatively transient documents; once replaced, they're usually destroyed (or stuffed away in a drawer by the owner and forgotten about). It's relatively unlikely that someone's passport from the 1960s would still be in existence and available - and I am sure that even if it were to be found and produced, the people demanding evidence would come up with some explanation as to why it didn't mean anything. (fake passport stamps! or somesuch.) Shimgray | talk | 20:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

As I learned from dealing with the "Apollo Moon Landing Hoax" article, conspiracy theorists will never, ever, admit they've got it wrong, no matter what facts are put forward. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Some birthers claim that even though Obama's mother was a US citizen, she had not been 18 years old for a full year, therefore, somehow, that meant that he wasn't by default a US citizen. Can't say I understand that logic myself, but there you go. So it doesn't matter where he was born, since she wasn't a legal citizen for a year as being a minor, he isn't either. Then there are those who claim that you can't be a US citizen if your father isn't, which is an odd argument that has never been upheld anywhere. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 23:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Remember when the republic and everything for which it stands totally collapsed because there was a Canadian-born president? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:10, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Our article claims that Arthur was born in Vermont. --Trovatore (talk) 00:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Our article claims Obama was born in Hawaii!!! Adam Bishop (talk) 02:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Surprisingly enough, this latter case was actually quite common. I don't know if the United States ever used it, but many countries differentiated until quite recently between citizenship descending from the father and citizenship descending from the mother; likewise, there was in many cases a presumption that a wife would take her husband's citizenship but not vice versa. Shimgray | talk | 00:20, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is the age of his mother would potentially have an effect if he were born outside the US. E.g. see [3]. Note that this has nothing to do with it being his mother but a IMHO poorly worded law which is clearly seeking to prevent people gaining US citizenship due to the fact one of their parents was born and grew up in the US but then later moved overseas and never came back but because of the way it was worded does seem to potentially exclude people who are born overseas just because their American parent was too young at the time even if their American parent only spent a day overseas Nil Einne (talk) 11:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

That's a very long sentence, Nil. I've read it a few times but I keep on losing my way and not really getting what you're saying. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. My point is that the law was likely intended to prevent a parent who is a US citizen but if they did ever live in the US had emigrated when young, either with their parents or may be by themselves in their late teens, passing on their US citizenship by themselves (the law only applies if only one of the parents is a US citizen). This sort of thing isn't that uncommon and I can somewhat understand their desire to prevent it. However the law as worded seems to mean that any US citizen who had a child overseas (the other parent not being a US citizen) would not pass on their citizenship if they were too young at the time of the birth of the child. This would apply even if it was the mother who was only ever overseas on the day they gave birth. Or if it was the father and he had never, ever left the US. And ditto even though said parent had always intended to return (if necessary) to the US, bringing their child to live their lives together in the US. Of course they could still take their children back to the US with them as dependents I presume and their children would gain US citizenship after having lived in the US for long enough (I don't know the precise laws) but they wouldn't be a US citizen from birth. Nil Einne (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I've never actually understood why a nation that has historically proclaimed so loudly its welcoming approach to the poor and oppressed from elsewhere has the "born in the USA" requirement for its President anyway. Can anyone explain? HiLo48 (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion it would be better scrapped. It's the one case where we say to citizens-by-choice, you're full citizens of this country, except in this one way.

To answer your question, though, I suppose the idea is to avoid some sort of Manchurian Candidate. Doesn't seem like a very serious concern, nor a very effective barrier, but I imagine that's the reason. --Trovatore (talk) 00:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

According to Natural born citizen of the United States#Possible sources, the provision sort of crept in by accident; it was never explicitly debated or discussed until later. It makes a degree of sense in context; a lot of the constitution was aimed to prevent the problems that had characterised the colonies relationship with Britain. Less than a century earlier, a coup d'etat had toppled one British monarch and replaced him with a foreigner; the subsequent political manoeuvrings had basically involved importing a dynasty of foreign monarchs, who were not always entirely popular. If the problems of the crown were perceived by whoever wrote it as being linked to the "foreignness" of the king, this could be an explanation for the caveat. Shimgray | talk | 00:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, right, that rings a little bell. I seem to recall there was a concern that some anti-republican faction would come to power and offer the presidency to some royal from Europe, who would then establish a royal line here. Maybe that was actually a genuinely reasonable concern at the time; I don't know. But it seems silly now. I'd love to remove that provision. But I doubt it'll happen anytime soon — three quarters of the states is a high barrier. --Trovatore (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I've read speculation (somewhere) that it got stuck into the Constitution in order to make sure that Alexander Hamilton couldn't be President. He had made a few enemies in his day. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, at the time of writing there were no "natural-born citizens" by a strict reading - or, at least, none old enough to be running for office! There was an explicit grandfather clause granting citizenship to anyone already a citizen of one of the member states, to avoid this problem. Shimgray | talk | 01:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that's not true. he colonies had been settled for 100+ years by the time of the revolution, so there were plenty of people born on this soil. Part of the issue, I think, is a question of loyalty. Someone born and raised in a foreign country may have mixed loyalties. e.g., a president who was born and raised in London might have an innate preference for British practices and ideals, or have other foreign attachments that cloud his judgement in potential conflicts. People often have a bias for their perceived home, and we want to make sure the nation's leader's bias is in our direction. I'm not sure that it really makes a difference in these days (most of our president are wealthy and cosmopolitan, and have nothing like the attachment to the land that a gentleman farmer in an agricultural economy would have. Heck, the Bush's have closer ties to Saudi royalty than to their own neighbors in Texas, so... --Ludwigs2 01:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, there were plenty of people born in the colonies. There were none, old enough to be president, who were born in the states.

No doubt they could have found wording that would work around that, but instead they grandfathered in everyone who was a citizen at the time of adoption of the constitution, which does appear to refute the theory about Hamilton. --Trovatore (talk) 03:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

There were Kings of England who were really Germans, and the founding fathers wanted to be sure our President didn't get "outsourced" that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

This is why (IMO) they put the emphasis on land. someone born in the colonies would still have loyalty to the land he was born on, even if that land belonged to a different nation at the time of his birth. This is land in the simple, physical sense of the word. --Ludwigs2 15:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Right, but that was assuming your own interpretation of the reason for the thing, rather than responding to what Shimgray had said. And it very specifically does not explain the grandfather clause. --Trovatore (talk) 19:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

One of the best kings England had was a a frenchman. Richard Avery (talk) 07:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Best? He was a vile, murderous bastard who died the death he deserved, alone and unmourned. DuncanHill (talk) 12:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmm — one of the best kings England had; vile, murderous bastard — someone tell me why you can't both be right? --Trovatore (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Neither is 'right', because they're both personal opinions, and we don't do opinions here ... except sometimes. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Yikes, I hate explaining my jokes. The implication is that vile, murderous bastard is about the best you can expect from an English king. It's not totally a joke; whenever I read the history of the royals I come away with the sense that they were almost uniformly slime. They've been better behaved since they lost their effective power. --Trovatore (talk) 20:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Since he gave instructions about his legacy and pardoned some political rivals on his deathbed, then there must have been at least one person there to hear him. See for example the third paragraph of Odo_of_Bayeux#Trial.2C_imprisonment_and_rebellion 92.15.30.74 (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

And in a fitting bit of irony, Vile Bill's descendants continue to occupy the British throne. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

True, but they're descended from a lot of other vile, murderous bastards as well - as are we all. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I hate to do this, because I really think the birth issue keeps a lot of people occupied on useless trivia, people who otherwise might do something dangerous, like get involved in serious politics. Still, in the interest of accuracy. . . Our article about Neil Abercrombie says this former congressman and current gubernatorial candidate was a friend of the President’s parents while they lived in Hawai'i, and at the time Barack was born . . . in Hawai'i. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

password

How do you change your password? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annieslappy (talk • contribs) 19:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Click on My Preferences and then on Change Password. Rojomoke (talk) 21:22, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Just for future reference, questions about how to use Wikipedia are more appropriately asked at the Help Desk, But we'll also try our best to help you here. hydnjo (talk) 21:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

That's assuming OP was talking about Wikipedia passwords. Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 13:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Purple gum at Albertsons

In the late 80s/early 90s I used to get this purple gum at Albertsons in Florida. It came in only one flavor — presumably grape, although I only remember it being the color purple. There were maybe six little tapered/rounded hexahedrons in the package… sort of like modern Bubblicious packages, only the pieces were slightly smaller, I think, and tapered/rounded at the edges, like they were cut apart with something slower or less sharp, etc.. It was different from gum in texture and flavor and shape, and that's probably why I haven't seen it in ages. Does anyone know what this product was called? :) TIA ¦ Reisio (talk) 20:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean Chewels gum. Here is an advertisement for it. Battleaxe9872 ^Talk 21:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Ooooh, I'm not sure if it's Chewels, Tidal Wave, or Freshen Up, but I do think it's probably one of those, or at the very least a competitor of that era — thanks, Battleaxe9872. :) ¦ Reisio (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

How does the "3rd cousin, twice removed" thing work?

I'm intrigued by English's system for naming relationships between distant family members, but I have a question about the whole "Xth cousin, Yth removed"-thing.

Let's say my name is Alice, and I have a cousin named Bob (that is, Bob is my aunt or uncle's son). We would be first cousins, right? Now lets say I have a child named Charlie, and Bob has a child named David. Charlie and David would be second cousins, right? But what is my relationship with David. Are we "first cousins, once removed", or are we "second cousins, once removed". Because I'm first cousin with his father, but my son is his second cousin, so you could make an argument for both.

In the same manner, what is the relationship between my son Charlie and my cousin Bob? Are they "first cousins, once removed" or "second cousins, once removed"?

Is there a general rule here, so you know what the deal is?

83.250.239.111 (talk) 23:57, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

There are charts in the cousin article, do they help? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, didn't see that. Yes, that does answer my question, "first cousins, once removed" it is. Thanks! 83.250.239.111 (talk) 00:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

And here's a short answer in words. If one of you is X+1 generations from your nearest common ancestor, and the other is X+Y+1 generations away, then you are Xth cousins Y times removed. In other words, the "Xth cousins" part is based on whichever of you is fewer generations from the common ancestor (if you're not of the same generation). --Anonymous, 00:40 UTC, September 5, 2010.

Actually, it works both ways. In the OP's example, David is Alice's first cousin once removed downwards, and Alice is David's first cousin once removed upwards. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• Yes. I hope "actually" doesn't mean you think I said something wrong, because I don't believe I did. --Anon, 20:44 UTC, September 5, 2010.

No, it was an infelicitous word choice on my part. But looking at this a little more closely, I think we need to place a condition on your formula: both X and Y need to be non-zero (you probably assumed that all along), because:

• if X=Y=0, you get siblings.
• if X=0 and Y=1, you get parent - child or uncle/aunt - nephew/niece
• if X=0 and Y=2, you get grandparent - grandchild or granduncle/grandaunt – grandnephew/grandniece
• if X=1 and Y=0, they‘re plain 1st cousins, or they could just be siblings
• if X=2 and Y=0, they’re plain 2nd cousins, or they could just be siblings. -- (Jack of Oz=) 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Right. In my family we occasionally say "cousin-uncle" or "cousin-nephew". Don't know if those terms have any currency anywhere else. --Trovatore (talk) 00:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I always thought that that 'Bob was your uncle'.85.211.222.168 (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on Bob's your uncle. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:48, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

While we're on this topic, is there a simple title for my nephew's wife, in the same style as sister-in-law? HiLo48 (talk) 21:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Niece-in-law sounds perfectly reasonable to me. ~ mazca ^talk 08:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it does, but it's a made up name so you won't find any lexicographic support for it. Also, it's ambiguous, since it could also refer to your spouse's niece (cf. father in law) or your child's niece (cf. son in law). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the meaning is pretty clear. You usually refer to your spouse's niece as simply your niece (at least in the States; not sure about elsewhere), so it's unlikely that meaning would be heard; your child's niece is your "great-niece" or "grand-niece". It seems sufficiently canonical that I'm sure lots of people have "made it up", all with the same meaning. Similarly for "cousin-in-law", which we use in my family. --Trovatore (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It is also not uncommon for two persons to be related in multiple ways, as when related persons get married. This is common in backwoods families with a limited breeding pool and in royal families. Edison (talk) 18:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

September 5

Best methods for maintaining health of feline teeth?

Considering the advance of technology, I'm wondering what the best home methods of maintaining the health of feline teeth might be at the present time. I know there is a finger brush, etc. Is it best to just let the vet deal with it? Viriditas (talk) 03:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly easier. I think they sedate the cat while they're doing it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

One can get (at least around here in Poland) specially-composed edible chew toys (in shapes of bones or such) the compounds in which help to cleen the feline teeth. Ask at your local pet store or ask your vet. --Ouro (blah blah) 05:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Asking your vet is the best advice provided so far. I would hope that you see a vet whose opinion you trust, so theirs would be the best for you. I recently asked my own vet a similar question. From what I understood, dry food was better since it kept the cats using their teeth by chewing their food. But he said that there was some research that suggested that dry food stuck to cats teeth more and therefore caused more problems due to bacteria being given a home. Dismas|^(talk) 07:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

There are proprietary products that claim to help with cats' dental hygiene. This, for example, is a product I have used with our cats; it claims to help keep cats' teeth clean as they eat it, through its texture and shape. NB: this is a link to the manufacturer's website; I can offer no opinion on the claims it makes, and there are probably other products out there that claim to do the same thing if you look. All I can say is that our cats eat them happily when they are offered, so they probably taste OK. Your vet will be able to advise you on what's best for your own cats' teeth, as others have said above. Karenjc 10:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

A web search finds this online guide to cat teeth care. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

There are also varieties of dry cat food available commercially that purport to help clean feline teeth. Typically they are formed in largish kibbles and contain a higher than average proportion of vegetable fiber. Several brands are available. My cats like them, but I have not performed any controlled experiments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.21 (talk) 17:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Buttermilk vs yogurt

what is the difference between buttermilk & yogurt and their usage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.8.252 (talk) 10:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

See buttermilk and yogurt. They are quite different. Dismas|^(talk) 10:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

two-way radio

With two-way radios that are free and don't need a license, like Citizens Band, is there any limits on how long you can broadcast on a channel for, or could you clog up say channel 37 indefinitely? (obviously only in the area where you are using it, not global or whatever) 82.44.55.25 (talk) 12:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about Citizens' band radio. Radio regulations vary from country to country so we cannot comment specifically without knowing your locality (the UK ?). All regulators may prosecute where excessive transmit power, off channel or interference with other services are reported. Excessive occupation of a frequency would sooner or later lead to complaints from other users. That would constitute interference which might lead to legal action. I don't know of any prescribed usage time limit, but continuous broadcasting is obviously not a permitted "two-way" use. (The article Citizens Band radio in India describes specific local frequency allocations.) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Tomato Ketchup

Does Heinz ever sell the other 57 varieties? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SoMinxy! (talk • contribs) 20:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's article on Heinz 57, the '57' was chosen for promotional reasons- Heinz was already selling more than 60 different products when they put the '57' on its labels, -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. See snopes.com. --ColinFine (talk) 20:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Plus, they didn't mean 57 varieties of ketchup. It was more like 57 varieties of soup and other products. But as other have pointed out, there never was an explicit list of 57 varieties. SteveBaker (talk) 22:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I always thought it was 57 varieties of tomato that went into the ketchup... until I read snopes a few years ago. -- WORMMЯOW  10:28, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

September 6

Cake flour vs. self-rising

I got a recipe that calls for the use cake flour, and I honestly thought I had it on hand, but it turns out that I only have the self-rising variety. The store that is within reasonable walking distance from me is now closed, so I can't exactly go out and buy cake flour right now, and I don't want to postpone making the buckle until the next day. So if I decide to use self-rising flour as a substitute for cake flour, will the results be disastrous? 24.189.87.160 (talk) 00:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Not when eaten hot. Perhaps you should not put in the baking powder,to compensate? --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

But when it cools down, will it turn into an inedible consistency, like a rock or something? Also, there's an inconsistency with the recipe, how do you add "approximately 3/4 cup" of "5 1/4 ounces sugar"? 24.189.87.160 (talk) 01:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it's more likely to be crumbly than like a rock. Really, you have to try it & report back. Looking at Cup (unit)#Using volume measures to estimate mass, 3/4 of a cup and 5.25 ounces are roughly the same (i.e. they're giving you two alternatives: weigh the sugar or measure it in a cup). --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:16, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Reading this, self-raising flour is (or can be) plain flour with 2% - 5% baking powder added. As I suggested above, just exclude the baking powder from the recipe and they'll probably be fine. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:33, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Hopefully all will turn out well... 24.189.87.160 (talk) 01:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Cake flour, traditionally, is rather finer than other types of flour, and the texture may differ slightly as a result, but I am not inclined to anticipate any catastrophy arising from this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.21 (talk) 18:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The recipe panned out exactly as it should, so it turns out that self-rising flour is an acceptable substitute. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 00:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

French commemorative medal.

I have come across a family owned medal with no knowledge of origin. Family has french heritage with service in 1914-18 war. Wording on medal as follows: Raised relief of Louis XV - "LUD.XV.REX.CHRISTIANISS" Reverse side - "ET HABET SUA CASTRA DIANA" with year "MDCCXXV". Considering its condition it would certainly have been struck during 20th century. Can anyone provide reason for medal and likely recipients114.78.95.127 (talk) 08:49, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The obverse text could be taken from Ovid. Militat omnis amans, et habet sua castra Cupido "Every lover serves as a soldier, and Cupid has his own camp". (Amores 1.9[4]. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The medal was created for Louis XV in 1725, because he liked to hunt as a youth (Diana was the Roman goddess of hunting). Assuming that you don't have the original, it must be a replica, not issued for anything in particular (except to make a bit of money off of people who like to buy historical replicas, presumably). There are other replicas for sale on Ebay and such. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

gasoline drill

How many holes can I do with a tanked up drill to knock in mountaineering spits?--217.194.34.103 (talk) 10:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC) t.i.a.

I think that'll depend on the size of the drill you're using (petrol capacity, rate of fuel consumption), the hardness of the rock you're drilling, and the sharpness of the drill bit. So. anything from 0 to many. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Could you not just bring extra fuel in a Jerrycan ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.167.165.2 (talk) 05:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

If everyone lies...

...who is a liar?--Quest09 (talk) 13:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Everyone. Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 13:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

For further information, see the Scott Adams book, The Way of the Weasel, in which he postulates that everyone lies to everyone, especially to themselves. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

And lie detection gets even more difficult when that happens. Wikiscient (talk) 17:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Orientation of items in dishwashers

Until late last month, I'd never lived in a house with a dishwasher, so I'm rather unfamiliar with some aspects of using it. Why do we always place silverware handle-down, with the business end protruding upward? I do it because I've seen others do it, but I can't see how its orientation makes a difference to the silverware. Note that our dishwasher article says nothing on the subject. Nyttend (talk) 14:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

You get more cutlery in that way. And the business ends are up and out of the basket so that they are thoroughly washed. By the way, it is a good idea to rinse plates, etc.. Helps to prevent rubbish build-up within the machine.95.176.67.194 (talk) 14:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It also means that any liquid residue left on the silverware after the rinse cycle will tend to flow down onto the handle, away from the business end of the cutlery. In a poorly-designed silverware basket, the cutlery may also be left in contact with a small amount of standing liquid at the bottom of the basket, and leaving the pointy end of forks down may cause them to become wedged or jammed. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

However, there are also arguments against leaving the pointy end uppermost. [5], [6], [7]. Karenjc 16:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

For larger knives, especially in a dishwasher which isn't completely full, you can compromise by resting them horizontally on a different part of the rack rather than in the little basket. They'll clean as well, but there's much less danger of this sort of accident. Shimgray | talk | 17:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Safety issues aside, I would recommend strongly against using the dishwasher for kitchen knives in any case. Pointy end up or down, one risks the blade striking other items (cutlery or dishes) nicking and dulling the blade. Many types of knife handle don't tolerate long water exposure/immersion and high temperatures well, and repeated trips through the dishwasher may loosen the handle, or open cracks in which microbes can become trapped. As well, a sharp blade may damage protective plastic coatings on the dishwasher's internal metal fittings. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It does depend somewhat on the dishwasher and the nature of the cutlery basket, too. My old dishwasher had a basket with particularly sparse edges, and actually recommended that cutlery should be put in point-up and point-down in roughly equal proportions for the best washing performance. My current dishwasher, conversely, has inbuilt handle-sized holes in the lid of the basket, leaving you no option but to put everything in handle first as it won't fit the other way. ~ mazca ^talk 17:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The benefit to the holes is that they enforce spacing between items, which can be a problem with a normal basket - if you put a handful of spoons or forks of the same pattern in, they're liable to clump together, meaning that the inside "layers" don't wash well. (Handle-down also helps here, in that it's easier to check they're distributed.) Shimgray | talk | 17:33, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't own a dishwasher, but when I place cutlery on a drying rack I always put it pointy side down. Partially because that's the way my mother taught me and partly out of an ingrained learned instinct not to have a blade pointing outwards, or even visible, when not in use. APL (talk) 19:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, of course, snopes has this covered. APL (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I actually read the instruction manual of the new dishwasher we recently acquired, and it said business end down, and don't rinse plates. HiLo48 (talk) 21:31, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Some of our smaller knives will fit through the holes in the cutlery basket of our current dishwasher, so they have to go in sharp end up, even though it's a bit dangerous. What's best really depends on your particular dishwasher and your particular cutlery. --Anonymous, 05:35 UTC, September 7, 2010.

My mother's dishwasher has a basket for utensils which makes them lie horizontally instead of vertically. I am thinking now, maybe this might be dangerous and could cause them to dislocate during washing, I had never thought about this before. For normal washing (as I do not own a dishwasher myself either) I place the utensils pointy/spoony end up to dry, because the bottom of my dryer unit tends to gather grime sometimes. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Pretentious

What is considered the most pretentious film ever? With this logic (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that AFI has done a list of 'most pretentious films,' and I searched for "Most pretentious film" and found lots of message boards discussing the subject, but didn't find any film authorities weighing in. There is some general consensus on the best film (Citizen Kane), and the worst film (Plan Nine from Outer Space), but I can't find any good source for a consensus on this question. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The Green Berets (film). Vets walk out of showings and demanded their money back.--Aspro (talk) 20:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Citizen Kane over Casablanca and Vertigo? That's pretty silly. Citizen Kane is one of the best substitutes for a sleeping pill you're likely to find on the big screen. --Trovatore (talk) 20:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. Thinks.... confused pretentious with the pretentious of subject matter dealt with by some films ....William Randolph Hearst for example. The film itself was not protentious. --Aspro (talk) 21:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Trovatore, the fact is that Citizen Kane has been showing up in "Best Films of All Time"-type lists forever. You may not agree that it's all that great. But here is not the place to have a discussion about it. Firstly, nothing would change. But more importantly, it's completely irrelevant to the OP's question. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

And neither is your comment because the OP Q is not about greatness but pretentiousness. Born on the Fourth of July (film) was a good antithises --Aspro (talk) 21:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

My vote is for Woody Allen's Interiors. Looie496 (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

People stopped going to the movies in the 70s when a lot of films were like that. 92.28.248.94 (talk) 00:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, you guys haven't even touched the surface of pretentiousness. How about My Dinner With Andre, which makes any Woody Allen film look like the Three Stooges? Nothing gets worse than two guys with unlistenable accents chatting over dinner for 2 hours. Andre Gregory: "That reminds me of the time we all decided to perform Hamlet with our bodies smeared with butter". Wallace Shawn: "Oh, that sounds interesting, tell me more." Imagine that for 2 hourse. Unwatchable.--Jayron32 04:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Siskel & Ebert liked it. In fact, if not for them, probably nobody would ever have heard of it. Although it also fit Hitchcock's axiom: "Two people sitting around a table talking is not a movie. Now, if there's a bomb under the table, that's a movie." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course in the Hitchcock version you'd first learn some hint about the bomb about half an hour into the movie, and it'd be another half hour before that hint crystallized into an actual bomb. Hitchcock movies moved like cold molasses. In a few cases, like Vertigo, the payoff was spectacular. But for lots of others — like, say, The Wrong Man, there was really never any payoff to speak of. (Admittedly it's a little unfair to pick on The Wrong Man because it had the almost insuperable handicap of being true, but it's not the only one in the never-pays-off category, just the one I've seen most recently.) --Trovatore (talk) 06:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

That's because Hitchcock movies spent time on such worthless endeavours as character development and plot. Now that our brains have been poisoned by the likes of Michael Bay and Joel Schumacher to believe that any film that doesn't have shit blowing up in slow motion around Nicholas Cage and Bruce Willis to be unwatchable; but there was once a time when people actually watched movies because they cared about the characters in them. --Jayron32 06:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm just saying, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. A lot of the really great movies do start a little slow. But so do some really dull ones.

I was appalled, not that long ago, to find that the critics' response to one of my all-time greats, Blade Runner, was that it was too slow. That was ludicrous; it wasn't slow, it was stately.

On the other hand, 2001: A Space Odyssey was just slow. --Trovatore (talk) 06:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, at least one notorious film authority called that one pretentious. John Simon in The New Leader, 1968: "... a kind of space-Spartacus and, more pretentious still, a shaggy God story."(rogerebert.com) ---Sluzzelin talk 06:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

No opinion; I haven't seen it in too long. I don't usually re-watch films that I think are boring. Maybe it would be worth running the experiment — I didn't like Brazil the first time, and now it's one of my favorites. But the reason that I didn't like it the first time was that I thought it was disturbing; I think disturbing changes to interesting more readily than boring does. --Trovatore (talk) 06:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh hey, how about The Breakfast Club as most pretentious? Don't know if the critics have said that, but it works for me. --Trovatore (talk) 07:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

In addition to the subjectivity of this question, the ambiguity of the term pretentious makes it a very difficult question to even discuss among ourselves (which we shouldn't be doing anyway). Naming My Dinner with André, is an example of directing the word "pretentious" against a certain stereotype of navel-gazing intellectualism. With Interiors, it is also the pretentiousness of trying to be like Ingmar Bergman. While searching a bit, I saw The Passion of the Christ being labeled as pretentious. A completely different type of pompous puffery. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and The Breakfast Club is still another sort. Its populism is its affectation. --Trovatore (talk) 07:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

(Actually, now that I look at it again, I shouldn't have started the sentence with "Yes" — I don't really think that about The Passion of the Christ. I don't know that I'll ever see it again, but I think it was sincere.) --Trovatore (talk) 07:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Aha! There you go! My personal usage of pretentious needn't imply insincerity. Making a sincerely felt claim to undeserved importance can come across as pretentious (and so can having the dialogue spoken in Aramaic). ---Sluzzelin talk 07:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The Aramaic was one of the main reasons I went to see the film. I thought it was an audacious choice and wanted to see it done. Unfortunately I didn't think the actors came across natural when speaking it. On the other hand the Italians that he got to play Romans sounded totally natural, at the expense of anachronistically speaking Church Latin. --Trovatore (talk) 07:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Ed Wood's efforts were totally sincere, yet also pretentious, in that he thought they were much better than they were at conveying some kind of social message. You don't have to be on a mega-budget to be pretentious. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think I disagree that you can be sincere but pretentious. I certainly do agree you don't need huge production values. (By the way, on the subject of Wood, Plan 9 gets a worse rap than it deserves; it actually does have a couple of interesting things to say, despite the amateurish execution.) --Trovatore (talk) 07:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

This subject could perhaps be a section within List of films considered the worst, or perhaps there's enough material for a companion article, List of films considered the most pretentious. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Sluzzelin's got it right. OP needs to define pretentious or else this is just yet another request for opinions, something that we (used to) not do here on the ref desk. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

We've never not done it. It's a pious commonplace, never actually observed. --Trovatore (talk) 08:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

astronauts

what have they not sent anyone to the moon for so long? would it be right to call a shuttle astronaut names for not having been to the moon? Isn't the moon more dangerous? Would they ever put soemone on mars? Is it that the shuttle isnt as good as the saturn five or are they just not able to go to the moon any more? Mocteau (talk) 22:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The Apollo program article presumably would get into more detail, but the bottom line was "the bottom line" - namely, that there was no further interest in public funding of manned missions to the moon. The final three Apollo launches were cancelled, and the government space agencies used the information it had gained from the moon programs to go forward with the earth-centric shuttles and space stations, and robotic explorers to other planets. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

{ec}I think the view being taken is, "been there, done that, got the t-shirt". It costs less to travel to & hang out in the space station than on the lunar surface, and NASA does not have limitless resources. Comparing just these two things, it is far far far far far more sensible to play space station games than lunar landing games. In other news, you should not call anyone names; not big, not clever. Shuttle versus Saturn V is an apples & pears comparison; mostly unhelpful. "They" could go the the moon if they wanted. It's just that they mostly (and with one eye on the budget) don't. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

That's pretty much it. If you're old enough to recall the space program, once we actually accomplished a few moon landings, it started to become old news and public support plummetted. "We beat the Rooskies", that was the main thing, and then the public said, "Now let's spend our money on useful stuff." Like the Vietnam War. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I hope that last part about the Vietnam War being "useful" was trolling. 95.93.28.118 (talk) 23:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It was irony, and the moon landings were one of the Vietnam War casualties, although there was really a sense that there was nothing else to do on the moon at that time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Moon landings are expensive and logistically demanding and space travel is inherently dangerous. If we discover valuable resources on the moon that are rare on earth we may be able to justify the cost, expense and danger. Exxolon (talk) 02:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The danger is not a good argument at all. Is there anyone here who wouldn't go to the Moon given a 90% chance of coming back safe? --Trovatore (talk) 03:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The real issue is that you are now confusing Space tourism with actual space-based scientific and commercial activities. It turns out that almost anything we could do in space is cheaper, easier, and less dangerous when done by unmanned probes. As technology has progressed, we no longer need to send someone to, say, Mars or the Moon to bring back a chunk of rock to study on earth. We don't even need to bring the chunk back to earth, modern probes are equipped with rather sophisticated equipment which can do all of the necessary analyses on site. What activity beyond "just going for the sake of going" could a human do, at this point, which cannot already be done by unmanned probes (which don't need food, water, entertainment, etc.)? Some of the research going on at the ISS, in terms of long-term survivability of people in space, growing food at zero G, etc. may be useful for future colonization, but as of right now, at the current state of the space program, there's just not a need to put a person on the moon. What would they do when they got there that would make it worth the trip? --Jayron32 05:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. I'm just saying we don't have to think of the risk to astronauts as some sort of deep sacrifice that we should avoid asking of them if we have a way around it. There are plenty of volunteers who would take the risk gladly and thank us for the chance. I'd be one of them if I had anything to contribute up there and could meet the standards. --Trovatore (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Ray Mears

I have been watching a collection of the television shows that Mr Mears has made, and I have two questions that seem to have not been answered in the shows, firstly and most importantly; RM cooks alot of food in a traditional method by digging a hold underneath his camp fire, placing food in the hole, often wrapped in leaves then covered with either coals and soil or soil and coals, this then cooks the food. One can come back later, dig up the food and it is beautifully cooked. I agreed with him that this may be a very tasty way of cooking with natural flavours, but, I am sure any one who has watched his shows or tried this themselves will agree, and want this answered too. How do you stop from getting sand in your food? This can be very unpleasant as I am sure alot of people have experienced this at some stage, sand on food, even just a grain or two can be very unpleasant. How does he evade this when cooking directly on the flames, or when buried beneath the fire? secondly, and very much as an aside, how does one go about nominating some one for a knighthood? RM surely is in need of this, he has done wonders for preserving ancient methods of cooking food, ancient foods themselves, and methods of using natural materials for survival. Alot can be learned from him in the modern age especially now days when we are trying to be quote unquote green. We all need to start making better use of our natural resources, apparently, and I feel he is a forrunner in this field and deserves some sort of recognition for this. So to summerize, how do you stop from getting sand in your food when doing traditional cooking, and how would one go about nominating some one for a knight hood? Sir Ray Mears, nice ring to it huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.145.145 (talk) 23:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

To nominate someone for a knighthood, you simply write to the Prime Minister at 10 Downing Street (some awards, such as those to military and diplomatic services are handled instead by the relevant secretary of state). It looks like Ray Mears hasn't been awarded a lower class of honour (e.g. OBE, CBE), which you'd generally expect to be awarded before a knighthood. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 00:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Wrap the food in big leaves, or perhaps paper or cloth. If someone is worthy of a knighthood for being paid to read out someone else's script about "done wonders for preserving ancient methods of cooking food" then about half the population of Britain have done things of equal merit and deserve a knighthood too. 92.28.248.94 (talk) 00:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you thinking of an Earth oven? This is still used in some cultures on special occasions, I don't think RM had anything to do with that. Guides to setting one up, like a hāngi should help with any problems you have. Nil Einne (talk) 08:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

September 7

fatal auto accidents

I am trying to find a comparison of the percentage of national motor cycle fatal accidents compared to the total number of motor cycle accidents and the percentage of national auto fatal accidents compared to the total number of auto accidents. can you help? thank you for your time and consideration. (e-mail address removed) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.96.66.240 (talk) 02:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmm - from Motorcycle_safety#Accident_rates - "Motorcycles have a higher fatality rate per unit of distance travelled when compared with automobiles. According to the NHTSA, in 2006 18.06 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 55.82 per 100,000.[1] In 2004, figures from the UK Department for Transport indicated that motorcycles have 16 times the rate of serious injuries per 100 million vehicle kilometers compared to cars, and double the rate of bicycles.[2]" Exxolon (talk) 02:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Check that link - Motorcycle_safety#Accident_rates - more useful info there. Exxolon (talk) 02:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I am trying to identify a documentary I once saw as a child

I am looking for help identifying a nature documentary I saw when I was a child. This was sometime in the mid-'90s, though it may have been made earlier than that. It follows the communal life of a particular group of orangutans in the wild.

Unfortunately, I can only remember one scene -- but if you saw it, you too would never forget it:

One of the orangutans is an infant, and he is being raised by his mother or perhaps his aunt. She carries him around piggy-back style, like most orangutans do. But the weird thing is, he never outgrows this, even as he grows into a large adolescent. He never permits her to put him down -- in fact, now he can force her to carry him. Then she gets polio. Carrying him saps her of her strength, and she dies. Without her, he too dies.

Thank you for your help. I've also asked this question on www.vark.com and I'll take any help I can get. Thanks. 160.39.220.66 (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)