User talk:Tjholme

Welcome!

Hello, Tjholme! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Footwarrior (talk) 03:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Wikipedia • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher

Tjholme, While contributions such as this are constructive and valuable, the allegations and insinuations against other editors in this or this edit are not. You are encouraged to rephrase those two statements to comment on content rather than contributors and refrain from similar comments in the future. You are however absolutely welcome to offer more of the first kind. MLauba ^(Talk) 08:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

@MLauba - I appreciate your feedback but could you please be more specififc as to exactly what you find objectionable in the edits you cited and why? My points about an effort to play down Guede's antisocial behaviour by using intentionally weak, inaccurately weak, paraphrasing of WP:RS sources are obvious ones. I'm confused as to why a discussion is even necessary once the error has been identified. Also, my comments were not attacks on any individual. I dont know who wrote that section of the article, just that it's clearly wrong. Guede wasnt 'an uninvited guest', he didnt crash their barbeque. Rudy broke into an occupied home by climbing into an open window. When he was discovered he drew a knife and threatened the owner. The owner's statement as to these events was presented as evidence at his murder trial. So when an editor states that 'he was an uninvited guest' is an accurate representation of those events, how would you answer? It is what it is. I dont know how to candycoat it to make it easier to swallow. Do I need to use some of those fancy WP acronyms to have my simple points fairly considered and not dismissed out of hand? Tjholme (talk) 23:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

No, all you need is to leave out all the posturing and grandstanding attacking other contributors, whether by name or as a group, claims of bias that you cannot substantiate, casting aspersions - in short, anything that discusses other contributors or their motives is out of line.

You are not on a blog's comment section, on a forum, or a social media site. You don't have to posture or soapbox to win points. All you need to do in order to influence the article is:

• To propose changes, worded in the most neutral way possible
• To advance solid third party reliable sources to support them
• To be able to argue, factually, why these changes are needed and what they bring to the article.
• To be able to let go when you lose an argument without resorting to name calling.

The purpose here is to build an encyclopedia. You are dealing with editors that come from all corners of the world, with different cultural backgrounds and sensitivities. Editing in a collegial manner requires that everyone concentrate on exactly one thing, discussing improvements to the article, and nothing else.

So please do consider this message as it is intended: An invitation to conform to the social norms that have been established on Wikipedia going forward and get your points heard and evaluated. But also as a final warning: the next time you attack others you will lose your editing privileges. MLauba ^(Talk) 08:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Following up MLauba's reminder, please do not poison the water by suggesting that editors on the topic are divided into a "British" and an "American contingent" (to use the description on your user page). That this is the English-language version of Wikipedia makes it clear that we, as users, are not supposed to regiment our actions on the grounds of nationality. Thank you, and regards, SuperMarioMan 22:25, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I didnt express myself clearly. I was actually trying to say that our European editors work in a timezone several hours removed from our North American editors, and that discussing and coming to consensus (for or against) after only a few hours doesnt give all editors a chance to consider the issue under discussion, much less add their voice. It creates the appearance of impropriety. Tjholme (talk) 00:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

In that case, my "notice" appears ill-advised, and I have struck it through. Due to the international nature of the topic, there has, in the past, been rather a lot of division at the talk page, but it now seems to me now that the content of that particular diff is not really objectionable after all. I apologise for jumping to conclusions so quickly. Regards, SuperMarioMan 14:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to this party, but I read it as a comment on timezones rather than factions. Maybe could have been better-worded, but not blatantly offensive.  pablo 14:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Indentation

Hi. It's usual practice to indent replies on talk pages (as described here) to make it clearer what you're responding to. This is done by prefixing your post with one more colon than whoever you're talking to has used.  pablo 14:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

ANI discussion

Hello. First of all, thanks for this contribution to the ANI discussion. However, since it does not appear to take on board what other users have said in response, I have decided to offer a reply here. When a user comes to Wikipedia and, in the very first sentence of their very first contribution to this project, states without caveats that he is "a supporter of Amanda Knox's innocence", one wonders whether it is a case of a player putting all their cards on the table in a defiant and intimidating manner. I also find it interesting that you appear sure of PhanuelB's inner thought processes in stating "When PhanuelB says 'The portrayal of Guede is negative and should be more so' it's obvious he's not suggesting that Guede be demonized or slandered, just that the quoted source be quoted accurately, which it isn't in it's current form." PhanuelB did not link to any diffs or external URLs in the statement referred to, which means that I am at a loss as to how you, a different user, seem to have a precise knowledge of what he left unsaid. As to the rest of your comment (allegations of a "bloody river", for example), the refuting arguments are further up the page, and it is tiresome to repeat these time and time again. Please provide some substantiation when offering counter-arguments so that they carry more weight. Thank you, and regards, SuperMarioMan 03:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Re- "which means that I am at a loss as to how you, a different user, seem to have a precise knowledge of what he left unsaid." Are you implying that I'm a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet or otherwise conspiring behind the scenes? Because it seems to me by the standards that PhanuelB has been held to and judged by that would amount to a personal attack. However, as I think that definition of a personal attack is a petty, twisted one I wouldn't think of using it against you or PhanuelB or anyone else. The truth is far more pedestrian. I've simply been watching the process of PhanuelB getting blocked and disagree with everything about it. My comments mean just what they say .. It's obvious to me what he means by "'The portrayal of Guede is negative and should be more so" and that specific line has been my pet peave all along. The substantiation is in the cited source [16].. What more could you want? I dont actually anticipate my opinion will make any difference at all. I just wanted to publically disagree with what's going on. Regards Tjholme (talk) 06:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't set out to imply sock- or meatpuppetry in that comment (sorry if it seemed suggestive of that), it just appeared to me that comments were being forced into PhanuelB's mouth. Thanks for clarifying, and regards, SuperMarioMan 01:34, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Regards, Tjholme (talk) 03:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)