Talk:Shane Duffy

Soccer player or footballer?

Should the title of this article be Shane Duffy (footballer born 1992) or Shane Duffy (Northern Irish footballer)? Although I also know the sport as Soccer, Shane Duffy is from Northern Ireland, and we should probably use what it's called there (football) in his title rather than "soccer player". Northern Ireland national football team lists the following players who have disambiguation after there name:

• David Healy (footballer)
• Andy Kirk (footballer)
• Michael O'Connor (footballer born 1987)

All of these have 'footballer' in the name.

Bryan Burgers (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I too asked the same question at WikiProject Footy to get a broader consensus. See here. Thanks, --Jimbo^[online] 19:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll contribute to that discussion instead. Bryan Burgers (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Will this get changed then. General consensus is that he is a football player and as he plays in England I think it should be changed.Factocop (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

It was discussed at the WikiProject as mentioned above and there was no consensus for change.Tameamseo (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Full name & Irish name

At the moment this article starts off "Shane Patrick Michael Anthony Duffy (Irish: Seán Pádraig Micheál Antaine Ó Dubhthaigh)", but this information is unsourced. Is there any source for his middle names, or that he uses an Irish version of his name? Putting "Seán Pádraig Micheál Antaine Ó Dubhthaigh" into google only brings up one hit that's not Wikipedia or a mirror, and that's a blog. As this is a BLP, I feel that this info has to go if there's no decent source. Dancarney (talk) 12:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The blog is accurate, it was created by a relative of Duffy. TheBigJagielka (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not a reliable source, though. Dancarney (talk) 09:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is any need to include his Irish name unless this is to be done for every Irish football player. And if it is to be included then an ulster scots translation should also be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs) 16:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

If a player has an Irish name (and this can be backed up with a citation) then it should be included. Translating their name into Irish for the sake of it shouldn't be included. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 09:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

why is it so important to have his name in Irish when so few other players have a translation? Would it not be pc to include an Ulster Scots translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs) 08:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

It is nothing to do with PC if you want to add an Ulster Scots translation find a source tht it is used. VirtualRevolution (talk) 08:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you intend on changing every Irish players wiki page to include an Irish translation? It is unneccessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs) 08:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

No I don't. --VirtualRevolution (talk) 10:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Ohh goodie. You must understand that it is a matter of consistency. And to have one Irish translation for only one Irish footballer doesn't really make sense.Factocop (talk) 10:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Shane Duffy (soccer player) → Shane Duffy (association football) — Since he plays in Europe, should use standard European name for the sport. Requesting "association football" since Shane Duffy (Gaelic footballer) exists. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose While Shane Duffy (footballer) would be ideal, it is inappropriate given the Gaelic footballer. However, in Ireland, those who wish to refer to football as it is understood in England, but where confusion with Gaelic football is possible, soccer is used immeasurably more comonly than association football. If I asked my nephews how their association football team is getting on, they would either not understand me, or would think I am using a rather affected phrasing. Irish newspapers head part of their sports pages as soccer, not as association football. Even in England, where Duffy plays and the term soccer is much derided, soccer will be heard far more often than association football, which might be used by elderly men in blazers, but no-one else. Kevin McE (talk) 17:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support - a European player should use European naming conventions. GiantSnowman 17:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• That isn't the naming convention in Ireland though. Ireland, despite being in Europe, commonly uses the phrase "soccer". BigDom More tea, vicar? 17:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, where in the English-speaking world is association football more widely used than soccer? Kevin McE (talk) 18:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, but if the other Duffy is disambiged by his sport's full name i.e. "(Gaelic football)", then this Duffy should be as well. GiantSnowman 23:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Why? It's not the full name that counts, it's the common name. "Soccer" is a far more common term in Irish English than "association football" is.Tameamseo (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Kevin McE (talk) 18:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose He is an Irish player and like it or not it is called soccer in Ireland (and in South Africa - it wasn't called Associated football city was it?). Bet the French/Germans/etc don't call it associated football either. Bjmullan (talk) 21:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the French/Germans/etc have the good sense to call football "football", rather than muddying the waters by giving the name to hand-based codes ;) In any case, until such time as he plays for the Republic, it's innaccurate to call him "Irish" in this context. --WFC-- 21:24, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support - He is from Northern Ireland where it is commonly known as 'Football'. And as he plays football in England, a country where the sport is also known as 'Football' it makes sense to go with the name most commonly used ie 'Football'. Factocop (talk) 08:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Even in Northern Ireland Gaelic football is the largest participation sport and soccer is a very common term to describe AF. Bjmullan (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support but suggest alternative - move this page to Shane Duffy (footballer), with a hatnote to the Gaelic footballer. This Shane Duffy is more notable than the other one, as he has played at a high national level and represented his national team at various youth levels. The point that "the term football isn't used in Ireland" simply isn't true. The two associations are called the Football Association of Ireland and the Irish Football Association, not the Irish Soccer Federation or somesuch. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The point that "the term football isn't used in Ireland" simply isn't true: I can't disagree, but it is a point that no-one has made made, so it is unclear why it is in quote marks. Nobody has said that the game is not known as football, but where that name is insufficient to identify the sport clearly, because of confusion with Gaelic football, that association football is never used, and soccer generally is. That confusion with Gaelic football is what we are trying to avoid here. Kevin McE (talk) 16:29, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

User:Bjmullan's rationale was that the sport is called soccer in Ireland. My point was simply that if that was the case, why do the two national associations use the term football, rather than soccer? I would have thought that was a more accurate guide. eg United States Soccer Federation or Canadian Soccer Association. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's not as simple as that. Soccer is common but not the only term ever used in Ireland: the usage of "football" in reference to the association code does exist. The association names are not necessarily an accurate guide to whether "soccer" exists in usage, e.g. South African Football Association, Football Federation Australia. See Football (word) and Names for association football. Tameamseo (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support association footballer. The standard procedure when two codes of football are involved is to use the codes' full names, unless one is far more notable. Given his nationality situation, association footballer is to my mind the only neutral phrase, and would remain an acceptable solution regardless of how the CAS case pans out. As an aside, if Shane Duffy (footballer) is to point here (which I think it should, there's little point to a DAB page) we would still need a hatnote to the Gaelic footballer. --WFC-- 22:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
  • But even in Northern Ireland "soccer player" is far more commonly used than "association footballer". So I don't see any neutrality issue there. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGVAR therefore point towards the current title. Tameamseo (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose move. Basically we have 3 choices: football, association football, soccer. Football is ambiguous due to the Gaelic footballer of the same name. The other two are both non-ambiguous. However "soccer" is a commonplace term in Irish English and is the normal term used in Ireland when there is any ambiguity problem. "Association football" is not an especially common or natural nsage by comparison (this applies to both Northern Ireland and the Republic). With the ambiguity problems, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGVAR, I therefore support the current title. Tameamseo (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
  • But why should we use Irish English? Controversial as this statement is (particularly with regards to (London)Derry), he was born in the United Kingdom, plays for a British team, and to date has only represented a British international team. Association football is the appropriate precision given that the appropriate would clearly be "football" were it not for the Gaelic footballer. --WFC-- 18:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
    • By Irish English I was referring to English as used on the island of Ireland, not just the republic. Duffy is from the island of Ireland. I did mention that "soccer player" is more common than "association footballer" in Northern Ireland as well, though not as much as in the republic. Even if we accept the argument that all connection with ROI should be ignored, he is still indisputably from Northern Ireland. Tameamseo (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
      • Which is still (although admittedly subject to some dispute) part of the British nation, where "footballer" is the overwhelmingly predominant term. Precision is needed due to another man from the Republic, hence "association". --WFC-- 21:09, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Current name is ok and nobody calls it association football. Mo ainm~Talk 18:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Just as a note, the issue was raised before in the "Soccer player or footballer?" section and as mentioned there it was taken to a discussion at WikiProject Footy. There was no consensus for a move on that occasion following the WikiProject discussion. Tameamseo (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Could you possibly provide a link to that?

As an aside, can I note that at least two all three of the three people opposed to this are Irish, and that the premise for keeping it here is that this man is Irish. He plays for a British club (so "football" will turn up by far the most sources). And based on both place of birth and international participation, Duffy should be considered British until such time as the CAS determines otherwise. --WFC-- 18:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, we could start noting how many of those supporting the move are British too, but please WP:AGF and stick to commenting on the arguments made rather than commenting on the editors and their nationalities. Maybe it wasn't your intention but it sounds like you're implying that people are editing in a biased fashion based on their nationalities.

Not sure of the link, but you should find it if you check the archives of the WikiProject from that time. Going on memory, this page was disambiguated by the move to the current title and later someone brought it up above then at the WikiProject, it was pointed out that contrary to that editor's belief the term "soccer" is used in the English of the island and there was a bit of discussion on appropriate disambiguation for these two football codes which kind of petered out without a consensus being reached. I recall arguing that "soccer" was appropriate for Ireland (island) but "association football" should be used to disambiguate a Scottish player from an Irish Gaelic footballer of the same name (Bobby Doyle).

As for the rest even if we accept the argument that any connection with the republic should be left aside, Duffy is from Northern Ireland, and "soccer player" is more used than "association footballer" even in Northern Ireland. Tameamseo (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

But nowhere near as much as "footballer". I take your word in good faith, but a link would be useful, because I'd be very surprised to learn that WP:FOOTY came to such a consensus (or indeed, any consensus of any kind on anything, ever!). --WFC-- 21:00, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Try here. So when a person in NI says he off to play a game of football it's more than likely he means Gaelic. Bjmullan (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I would say "footballer" for soccer is more common in Northern Ireland despite the participation figures. In any event "soccer" is certainly much commoner than WFCforLife seems to think, especially among the nationalist community due to Gaelic football although less so with unionists. Anyway we're talking about "soccer" vs "asscoiation football" not "soccer" vs "football". As for the consensus WFCforLife seems to have misread...I said the discussion on what generally should be used sort of petered out without really reaching a definite conclusion. Pressed for time right now but I might try to find the exact link tomorrow anyway rather than going on memory. Tameamseo (talk) 21:29, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Soccer may be used in parts of Northern Ireland, but given that this is a world wide web research tool, a term should be used that most commonly used around the world. And I would imagine that would be football.And given that football is a million time more popular, i doubt there would be any confusion between the sports.Factocop (talk) 07:30, 19 September 2010 (UTC)