Talk:Operation Sea Lion

Note: discussion prior to 2007 has been moved to /Archive 1.

Operation Artus

I removed this for a few reasons:

1. It wasnt a German plan, it was the name the German Foreign Ministry gave to Plan Kathleen simply to have something convenient to refer to it by
2. Kathleen was the sketched out plan of how the IRA would assist in a German invasion (a German invasion plan also sketched out by the IRA). Kathleen was written for Stephen Hayes then acting Chief of Staff who sent it to Germany.
3. The closest thing that exists to a German plan for invasion of british controlled land in Ireland is the Kurt Student plan 1941. It was never put on paper and remained a brainstorm in Students mind.

I've tried to describe why "Artus" is a bogus description creating a misleading impression in the minds of the reader on other talk pages. This has had little effect so ive taken to changing the detail myself. All the information on Kathleen is in the article I wrote on the subject. Please respond here before resurrecting 'Artus' again. Fluffy999 19:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Plans after May 1941

Kurt Leyman deleted the following twice:

In addition to the loss of the French fleet and the bitter fighting against the Soviets, the losses in personnel and materiel suffered by German paratroopers during the Battle of Crete, in May 1941, could not be replaced in time for the planned operation.

With edit comment:

Anyone who has done some research knows how irrelevant to Seelöwe - 1940 plan information concerning mid/late 1941 that information is.

Even though I am not the editor who added the above, I think the reverses that Nazi Germany faced to May 1941 are relevant to the question of what changed to make an invasion in that year impractical or impossible.

• Is a summary of what changed from Fall 1940 to Spring 1941 to make an invasion impractical or impossible relevant to the article?

• And if it is, is the above text a good summary?

I'm not delighted by the arrogant anyone who has done some research knows... The Wikipedia exists to provide answers for people who have not already done the research and, in fact, are doing that research here. patsw 02:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd disagree. The situation in mid-1940 is not controlled by the situation in June 1941. That's why I deleted

" Germany's difficulties on the Eastern Front created an enormous drain on Germany—one that made a potential large-scale invasion across the English Channel a dangerous and costly gamble."

And "Germany's difficulties on the Eastern Front" were more a product of Hitler's incompetence than Seelowe. Trekphiler 22:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Legitimacy of this article

There may be some errors in this article. Firstly, the operation was not postponed on September 17, 1940. It was ended there after talks with Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt, not with Grand Admiral Erich Raeder. Raeder was going according to plan with Reich Marshal Herman Goring, and Rundstedt was in charge of both the landing operation as well as the plans to capture London and Bristol. Therefore, I have changed these facts. Furthermore, I do say that this article is not of quality. Please see better quality articles from Britannica as well as World Book. Thank you very much. --Adasarathy 21:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

William Shrier in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" quotes the German Naval War Diary on September 17th as saying "The Enemy Air Force is still by no means defeated. On the contrary, it shows increasing activity. The weather situation as a whole does not permit us to expect a period of calm... The Fuehrer therefore decides to postpone "Sea Lion" indefinitley." (p.773) Shrier footnotes this quote giving the ultimate source as the Fuehrer Conferences on Naval Affairs: Summary records of Hitler's conferences with the Commander in Chief of the German Navy. Shirer also quotes a Fuerherbehefel, a formal directive, dated October 12 as saying "The Fuehrer has decided that from now on until the spring, preparations for Sea Lion" shall be continued solely for the purpose of maintaining political and military pressure on England." (p.774, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich). So while there is not yet any paper definatley saying what date Hitler gave up the ghost of invading England, it appears that September 17th is when the rot certainly set in and really no further thinking on the plan continued.Yanqui9 (talk) 18:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree there was no definitive ending point but 17th September serves as a good cut-off. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 23:30, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

infobox

Ok. I just created an infobox--Adasarathy 21:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

New rating

I rated this as a B because it now contains virtually no factual errors, and matches the checklist. If you disagree, please comment on my talk page. --Adasarathy 21:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Redundancy

The second paragraph of the introduction and the first paragraph of the 'Background' section are almost identical; there is simply some word rearrangement. Perhaps this could be rewritten? Omniarch (talk) 08:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm in charge here

I'd say head of HDV & Bomber Command (before Harris) should be included. Trekphiler (talk) 19:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Check external links on main page

Check Links

Gaius Cornelius (talk) 13:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You're the bomb

This offers a source for German lack of AP bombs. Trekphiler (talk) 13:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Edvard Beneš

What did Edvard Beneš do to help or hinder Operation Sealion? Why is he in the infobox? Binksternet (talk) 17:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd guess that it was becuase he was the leader of the Free Czech forces who made up a portion of the defenders of Britain. Not sure he should be in the infobox, though. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 18:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

There are far too many people mentioned in the Commanders box. Only the operational heads of the armed forces should be mentioned (Commander of the Royal Navy's home fleet,Commander of the Army in South East England, Fighter Command and Bomber command -- and the German equivalents). For example Churchill was not in command because he was a civilian in HMG not a member of the armed forces. Bomber Harris was not AOC-in-C of Bomber Command (until early in 1942), I don't know about the others, but someone who know what they are doing needs to check them very carefully if those two are anything to go by. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Should it read home counties under objective rather than 'home country'? Difficult to check as the cite note is not very useful, führer has an umlaut BTW. If someone has the source for this directive (or a link to it) could they improve it perhaps? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

no the objective is stated (by the Germans) as the elimination of the home country, Hitler on the Doorstep, Egbert Kieser, Arms and Armour 1997, page 274.Slatersteven (talk) 23:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Coincidence then that the home counties were the potential counties involved, at least for the initial invasion plan. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:50, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Combatants in infobox

It seems odd to list Poland, Free France, and Czechoslovakia and not Canada, Australia and other Dominions, which had more significant forces in the UK and also had independence in foreign policy after 1931. What do others think? Grant | Talk 05:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

That infobox needs work, for sure. Binksternet (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Given that there was no fighting, and its rather hard to determine who would have (for example the French are doudtfull) perhps its best to use those forces who made contributins to the BOB.Slatersteven (talk) 19:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed change

Hi guys, in the spirit of being bold I'm going to hide the latter part of the infobox for a trial run...

I don't think we should list troop numbers and commanders for a battle that never happened. Remember, infoboxes are only meant to summarize an article, they don't have to be filled out completely, the briefer they are, the better. Plus it's unreferenced ;)

Any thoughts on this, cheers. Ryan4314 (talk) 18:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Belligerents

Given that tehre was no fighting there were no beligerants, and moreover this is conjectual at best. I propose its removed, and mention of contingents moved to a section of the artciel named likly paticipants.Slatersteven (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree that it's a bit superfluous to list belligerents when operation actually didn't take place (as I pointed out some time ago in edit summary of a very minor edit), but may be we should ask somewhere on WikiprojectMilitary history first? BTW it seems that articles on other cancelled operations don't use infobox too...(Just some I picked by chance).--ja_62 (talk) 22:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

p.s.:It seems that there also exists template Operational plan, which is, in my opinion, much more proper for operation which didn't materialise.--ja_62 (talk) 22:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I have started a discusion at [[1]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. MilborneOne (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

---

Sealion or Sea Lion?

Operation Sealion → Operation Sea Lion —

• Sealion is not the conventional translation of Seelöwe, while Sea Lion is. Most references are to the two-word form.   -- Evertype·✆ 10:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Previous move discussion

• Sealion or Sea Lion? The article is inconsistent. Wikipedia calls the animal a sea lion, so shouldn't the title of this article be consistent? What do English language sources call the operation? Cyclopaedic (talk) 12:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• The Germans called it Seelowe. So a direct translation of that is Sealion, but most of teh soources (English language) seems to call it Sea Lion. I susgest the former (as it is closer to the german name).Slatersteven (talk) 12:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• The direct translation of Seelowe is sea lion, not sealion. The article should be moved. Binksternet (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• I agree, the article name is wrong. Quite a 'howler'.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 02:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
• Bear in mind that words are often compounded in the German language, one of my favourites is Luftkissenfarhzeug, literally 'Air cushion travelling machine', yep, a Hovercraft! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 02:56, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
• I agree; Seelöwe translates as Sea Lion (even for the animal). The article should be moved. -- Evertype·✆ 10:03, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Continued move discussion

• Support - the animal is called a "sea lion". 81.111.114.131 (talk) 21:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support. The things about the animal and German are true Sea Lion seems to be used most commonly for the operation. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 22:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Sea Lion is the form used in German Invasion Plans for the British Isles which is used as a reference in this article and also appears this way in Winston Churchill's memoirs (I inherited Vol I and III recently but Vol II is missing sadly). Page numbers can be provided if needed. I think this is a simple error that has gone unnoticed. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support. "Sea Lion" is AFAIK the universal form of the name... Constantine ✍ 14:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. Everybody's agreed, so grab the nearest admin and get it done. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Do we need an Admin? Should we wait for 'Oppose's (just in case)?! A bot picks up the redirects. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

We do because the correct title is a redirect, I will contact an admin. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

In fiction section

This is largely a trivia section which in my view should be deleted, in accordance with WP:MILPOP. The first sentence could be retained, and perhaps one or two examples, but only if there is cited evidence of their significance to the subject of the real Operation Sealion. Bedknobs and Broomsticks doesn't come close. Cyclopaedic (talk) 09:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

So can we have a list please, of what you object to? Whilst I can agree that Bedknobs and Broomsticks is a best only a passing refernace others are very relevant represeting as they do attitudes or assumptions. There is also the issue of simulations they have value if you wish to model the conflict, but are they truely part of popular culture.Slatersteven (talk) 15:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

All of it, as it stands. To remain, it would have to have cited justification of why each item adds to the understanding of the subject of the article. To quote WP:MILPOP:

"In popular culture" sections should be avoided unless the subject has had a well-cited and notable impact on popular culture. Any popular culture reference being considered for inclusion must be attributed to a reliable source for the article topic. Items meeting these requirements should typically be worked into the text of the article; a separate section for popular culture items, and in particular the following, should be avoided:

Compendiums of every trivial appearance of the subject in pop culture (trivia)

Unsupported speculation about cultural significance or fictional likenesses (original research)''

So to remain, each item needs a citation of a reliable source for the article topic (ie a book or other source about Operation Sealion) which explains the impact of Operation Sealion on popular culture. A sentence (appropraitely cited) about the alternative future fiction might be justified, but the list is not. Cyclopaedic (talk) 11:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well [[2]] (one of the extrernal links) lists both SS-GB

and It Happened Here. So are these listed in an RS?Slatersteven (talk) 21:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

No. Those are links on a website, which is itself uncited and makes no attempt to explain the cultural significance of Operation Sealion. Cyclopaedic (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Your argument loses me, I'm afraid. How does a work of fiction describe the cultural significance of Sealion, except by reference to what actually happened & contrasting what didn't? In other words, since SS-GB is showing by its very content how different Britain would've been than it was in fact, doesn't that by definition explain its significance? Or do I take you to mean SS-GB only qualifies if there's a source saying SS-GB itself had an impact? (If so, I defy you to demonstrate virtually any novel deserves a mention, including, perhaps especially, ones made into films, considering the changes typically necessary to make the transition.) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 12:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Time is on his side

"Sandhurst wargame three years later"? Later than what? Than the planned invasion, or the book? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 12:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Later Plans...After the Invasion

As requested, I'll expand this section over the next few days, regarding the effect on the UK of the invasion, as it does seem a rather gentle affair as described here. It was meant to be a military 'elimination' and a 'vengeance' or 'final reckoning' occupation, of a brutality not yet seen (even in Poland). I'll use Shirer as my source, and try to give some indication of what would have become of Britain's working-age male population had they indeed been rounded-up and shipped-off to the Continent as slave labour, given that Hitler would probably still have been gearing-up for 'Barbarossa' at that time. 86.148.252.237 (talk) 23:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've put my little bit in. In view of the relative successes of bankrupted Britain and Democratic Germany after the war, there are still 'revisionists' here in the UK who think that the Nazi occupation would have been 'good for us if we had only known', or even fairly 'nice' - like in the Channel Islands. Just to put things straight :-). Can somebody a little better versed in 'Wiki' please check and correct my entry for the finer points of spacing, references etc, thanks.86.148.252.237 (talk) 20:56, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

To Morgan Hauser: Many thanks for your work, the section reads much better now. (252.237 above, but my ip keeps changing :-) 86.170.182.192 (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2010 (UTC)