Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view: Difference between revisions

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Report of biased article

I would like to report an extremely biased article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution or Evolution. It is written from the perspective that it is the one and only truth, which is NOT neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ork rule1 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative viewpoints do not always need to be presented... See WP:UNDUE. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification of WP:UNDUE for individual sources

I was talking with a new editor who had expressed concern about a film review being presented in an unbalanced way (the review was overwhelmingly positive, but in the Wikipedia article text the negative part of the review was given equal weighting with the positive parts). He didn't know the words for the problem he was describing, but seemed to be talking about "undue weight" given to the negative aspects. So I was about to point him to WP:UNDUE, which I for some reason remembered having something about how to give a balanced representation of the views of a particular source (as opposed to how the article, overall, should proportionally represent the views of all sources), but then noticed that nothing like this is here.

I'd like to add something to WP:UNDUE, along the lines of: When describing the views expressed in a particular source, discuss them in proportion to their prominence within that source. I don't know where this should be included, or how it should ultimately be written, but I think this is important. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 16:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is something similar at WP:Coatrack#Fact picking. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea to include the statement in the article... ♪ ♫ Wifione ♫ ♪ _―Œ^{♣Łeave Ξ мessage♣} 11:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

She or it

I am party to a dispute on what Undue means [[1]]. I may have mis-understood Undue. The basics are that I bleive a soures to be being used in way that gives its views undue attention, based mainly on the fact that its a recomendation of a science blog based (if latter ceaveats are accepted) on non scientific reasons (and the person is n ot a scientist anyway). Hta the recomendatiuon is not in fact relevant to the articel, and thqats its a trivial mention anyway. The other side of the deabte says its not undue becasue I amalkking about the person who holds the view itslef. I am in fact mistaken?Slatersteven (talk) 19:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you are mistaken. This is not a question about WP:NPOV, but about WP:RS. You cannot use blogs as WP:RS. The question of due or undue weight would come only after that. ♪ ♫ Wifione ♫ ♪ _―Œ^{♣Łeave Ξ мessage♣} 18:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should explain. I have said on the talk page that this is undue as its diffilcult to see why her views are notable on a this blog. I am asking is that view mistaken and that any one who is published iin a newpaper (as a columnist) can be used as a source regardless of any qulification they may not hold (this is not just about this source I am using it as an example). To word it another way does the rule exclude Joe Blogs who writes a column for the Big newspaper of the world from being used as a source for opinions he is not actualy an expert on?Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to explain Slater's question in a more coherent manner. An article is about "X". A NYT review says "I like X". Slater makes the argument that the review shouldn't be listed in X's entry, because it gives undue weight to the NYTimes. But WP:UNDUE doesn't work that way -- it is the opinion about X itself (i.e. the fact that X is liked) that can be given undue weight, if for instance many other reviewers say "I don't like X", then presenting only positive opinions (regardless of their source) is an undue weight issue.

Undue weight is about the statements/view/opinions/whatever of the sources as they relate to the article subject, not about the sources themselves. A source can of course present reliability or notability issues, but by itself, not undue weight. Fell Gleaming^talk 15:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PLease do not misrepresnt what I say. I have not said it gives undue weight to the NYT (and indead have made it clear its not the HYT I object to) but to the views of one columnist. Moreover the artciel is not about 'X', the artciel is about x and the commentator its not a review its about a problom) says I like 'Y' (and that is the limit of the 'review' a one line comment at the end of an in a four or five paragraph articel).Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Slatersteven: it would really help me out if you took a little more time writing your posts. the spelling and grammar errors make it difficult to understand what you're after, and this is not an easy topic to begin with.

That being said, UNDUE refers to representation of a theory or opinion on wikipedia. It does not refer to sources, but rather to how the statements that sources make should appear on the article. Ms. whateverhername made a statement, that statement was printed in the NYT, the NYT is a reliable source for many kinds of statements, all is good to that point. Now we have to ask "How much weight does that statement carry in the discussion about the topic"? A NYT op-ed piece would not carry much weight at all in terms of the science of global warming, but it might carry more weight in terms of the popularity of a blog. It's a question of how the opinion is being used and what its purpose is in the article. --Ludwigs2 18:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thats what I thought (more or less). As to the specific case its dfficult to tell what the statement is being used for. it seems to be used to demonstrate an endorsment of the blog, but its difficult to see why this view is significant to the blog.Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some minor edits for clarity

Just tidyied the syntax a little. As far as I can tell, did not change the meaning Nucleophilic (talk) 16:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Serious NPOV/SYNTH problem with List of films considered the worst and best

I've started a talk page discussion here. If anyone here is well-versed in the NPOV policy, please participate if you can, because I think these articles' problems need to be hammered out, possibly with deletion. Nightscream (talk) 02:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'equal validity' section

I've removed this section - [2] - since it seems to have been added to the policy with very little discussion. since it's a major shift in policy, it needs more investigation. my specific objections are as follows:

it is specifically geared towards pseudoscience, meaning this should really be in the wp:FRINGE guideline, not in policy.
It shifts the nature of NPOV, implying that editors can and should take a stand on issues above and beyond what is presented in reliable sources, which is a major departure from the principles of NPOV.
It encourages editorial synthesis, since it explicitly suggests that editors should go out of their way to present strongly disapproving opinions.

I'm not averse to the basic idea (particularly as part of the FRINGE guideline), but the phrasing here is poor, and as written tends to contradict some of wikipedia's core principles. at very best it needs a significant revision. --Ludwigs2 02:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section you are removing is essentially a restatement and a clarification of WP:UNDUE. I don't see any problem with it. Blueboar (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It actually does not appear to do anything except 1), which can be remedied by some simply rewording. The section you remove advocates the OPPOSITE of 2 & 3, since it makes pretty clear that Wikipedia articles should reflect existing views in reliable sources, reflecting the predominant, mainstream, and majority viewpoints on a topic. I don't see where the removed section is in conflict with anything, at least in spirit. --Jayron32 05:12, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I don't see any objection to the removed section except that it's redundant to the rest of the policy (which doesn't seem to be considered a reason for removing anything, since the editors of this policy seem to love redundancy).--Kotniski (talk) 06:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) If this were a simple restatement of UNDUE then I'd probably have no problem with it, but that would also make it entirely redundant (and thus removable anyway). However, it's not. This 'no equal validity' line of argument is intended to expand UNDUE. put roughly: UNDUE allows us to minimize or exclude fringe theories from mainstream articles, and to qualify fringe articles so that they do not give the appearance of having more prominence than they really have in scientific circles; this 'no equal validity' clause seeks to give editor the right to overrepresent and overstate mainstream positions in order to build arguments that refute fringe theories. The first is reasonable, the second is synthesis. Wikipedia is not here to take a position on these matters by promoting theories or by refuting theories.

honestly, the optimal solution in my view would be to shift this section over to wp:FRINGE (since it clearly is intended to be a clarification of UNDUE for fringe topics), and reword it somewhat so that it is not so blatantly permissive of synthesis. something along the lines of "Wikipedia may not itself be used to validate fringe views. Fringe views may be excluded from articles on scholarly topics where they are not a significant part of the mainstream literature, and where they are included may not be depicted as proven, true, valid, or accepted by the scholarly world beyond what independent sources say. Further, Wikipedia may not itself be used to invalidate fringe views. Wikipedia should describe any fringe view clearly, including critical perspectives and the view's relationship to established scholarship, but should avoid giving the appearance of attempting to debunk or disparage the topic." That should cover both ends of the spectrum sufficiently. --Ludwigs2 06:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Mondragon Corporation

[[3]]

A lot of the prose in this article comes across as glowingly approving, with a lot of canned platitudes and essentially no acknowledgement of the potential negatives of the approach.I think this article is propaganda. just a copy and paste from the group web page,With out NPOV all or most of the links go back to a self published Websites and is against Wiki NPOV --Kimmy (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 116: / Line 116: @@
 :::::honestly, the optimal solution in my view would be to shift this section over to [[wp:FRINGE]] (since it clearly is intended to be a clarification of UNDUE for fringe topics), and reword it somewhat so that it is not so blatantly permissive of synthesis.  something along the lines of ''"Wikipedia may not itself be used to validate fringe views.  Fringe views may be excluded from articles on scholarly topics where they are not a significant part of the mainstream literature, and where they are included may not be depicted as proven, true, valid, or accepted by the scholarly world beyond what independent sources say.  Further, Wikipedia may not itself be used to invalidate fringe views.  Wikipedia should describe any fringe view clearly, including critical perspectives and the view's relationship to established scholarship, but should avoid giving the appearance of attempting to debunk or disparage the topic."''  That should cover both ends of the spectrum sufficiently.  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 06:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
+== NPOV Mondragon Corporation ==
+[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mondragon_Corporation#Scottish_Daily_News.3F]]
+A lot of the prose in this article comes across as glowingly approving, with a lot of canned platitudes and essentially no acknowledgement of the potential negatives of the approach.I think this article is propaganda.
+just a copy and paste from the group web page,With out NPOV all or most of the links go back to a self published Websites and is against Wiki NPOV --[[User:Kim0290|Kimmy]] ([[User talk:Kim0290|talk]]) 13:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)