Talk:Claddagh ring

A full length artical about the Claddagh Ring and Claddagh village is available under "Claddagh Village" in the encyclopedia.

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I believe much in this article is copyvio -- it's hard to tell, though, since it's been here since August and it's replicated in some parts of the net by virtue of being here. Still, I am sure that some of it is a quote, and I think much of it is lifted from elsewhere. Anyone have a thought on this, or an idea of what to do? I don't know if we should delete and start over, or just assume that having it in the history is a minor offense... Jwrosenzweig 15:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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A lot of anon additions have seriously confused the significance section. As far as I am aware, the significance section's instructions are now backwards. This may, however, be a difference between claddagh wearers in the US and those in Ireland. Anyone know for sure which way a claddagh ought to point to indicate marriage? If no one does, I'll switch it back to the way it used to be (crown towards fingernail = marriage), and do some research to back up my claim. Jwrosenzweig 09:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Update: This site supports my belief. This site doesn't. I fear we need a carefully worded explanation of the diverse opinions....unless this is cultural as I suggest above. Any help is seriously appreciated. Jwrosenzweig 09:56, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The way the article is now written is the tradition as I learned it (heart facing body equals married), and as I've seen it done in both Irish and Irish-American families from a variety of locations. I've never heard of the opposite being done. Are you saying that the tradition you learned was of the heart worn facing out to indicate marriage, and in to indicate less-serious relationships? Where is this the tradition? --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 06:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It is definitely heart facing in means taken, facing out means single in Ireland, how the Americans do things i don't know. however the opposite makes very little sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nato2101 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

History

What's the deal with the 'historical details' section? I didn't do any fact checking, but that's not what I'm even concerned about. It just doesn't seem to adhere to the tone and style of other objective entries. It's personal and somewhat weepy. Can anything be done to rectify this? I'm no Claddagh Ring expert.

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I agree the "historical details" section is not objective. Subjective comments such as those referring to the "Irish psyche" or "half history" should be backed by facts or removed.

Citations

Many of these statements are unsourced and quick google searches that I've tried haven't been able to support them. For example "The popularity of the TV show led to an increased popularity of the rings." has no source, and many different keywords didn't locate data to even show escalated sales after episodes airing, and in no way at all made any link between buffy and sales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bifgis (talk • contribs) 20:23, December 3, 2006

Agreed, this article really needs sourcing. The Buffy thing is true, but possibly not verifiable. My "sources" are catalogs, street vendors, internet vendors and eBay. Whereas before the show the rings were rarely seen outside the Irish community (and diaspora), now they seem to be everywhere. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the Claddagh Ring's symbolism was also explained in the Movie Ladder 49 by actor Joaquin Phoenix. That is how I first heard about the ring. Can anyone add this to the main page, I don't know how to do it and don't want to mess with the article.--132.18.128.6 (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

...during the rule of Queen Mary II

From first paragraph, this information is irrelevant to the article. 87.210.35.24 (talk) 13:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Design

I think it'd be useful to specify exactly what it means for the design to be 'pointing inwards' - what part is pointing in? Is the point of the heart towards your hand, or is it the crown that's towards your hand? I'd put in the info myself, but I honestly don't know. -Elizabennet | talk 18:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we've had some confusion over how to best describe this. If you look at the picture of the ring, that's the design right side up, with the crown up top and the point of the heart at the bottom. So, "facing outwards" means the point of the heart is away from the body, and the crown closer to the body. The design looks right side up to someone viewing your hand. If the design is "facing inwards" it means that when you look down at your own hand, the design is right side up (crown away from body, point of heart towards body). Does this make sense? I certainly welcome a clearer, more concise way to describe it, as people keep getting confused about this. Slán - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)!!!!!!!

Um how about putting a picture of it on the finger / hand to show what each of the four ways of wearing it mean! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.122.122 (talk) 18:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

If anyone knows how to pronounce claddagh, and they want to add a pronunciation, that would be awesome. My mom says this word "Claude". I usually say "clad-dag" but I have no idea what the correct pronunciation is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maurajbo (talk • contribs) 14:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Its like clad-ah. You silly Americans :P 86.42.12.126 (talk) 14:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

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Update: actually claddagh is prounounced "clod-uh" XD- edited by a silly american —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.186.129.199 (talk) 19:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

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Within Australia, I hear the word pronounced as 'clad-ah' by those with an Irish accent, and 'clod-ah' by non-Irish, in order to mimic the way the word sounds with an Irish accent.

58.178.148.161 (talk) 13:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

If anyone's reading....

• This article could use some really healthy background, and a paragraph from William Jones' Finger Ring Lore (London, 1890, sorry, I don't have it in front of me now) would do wonders. Jones explains this ring as exclusive to the fishing village of Claddugh [his spelling], is a species of fede ring, owes some design inspiration to the gemell ring (twin, interlocking rings). Furthermore, Jones makes it clear that the native women of the xenophobic village of Claddugh passed a ring from mother to first-wed daughter, as an heirloom. Therefore, Jones says, it was exclusively Claddugh's custom. Finally he says "these rings are still worn... today" [meaning 1890] and that they are "very old." Ideas?

04:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Ideas included in history section.75.21.155.231 (talk) 04:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Some clarification on legends, please

OK, the legends behind the Claddugh have NO known citations in the literature such as it is. Jones is the ultimate authority on ring lore, and he makes no mention of any legends behind Claddugh rings. Can we somehow just put the original reference or citation of where these stories have been reported? Otherwise they should be removed from the article. And I will remove them if the work isn't done. I've tried and cannot justify the presence of these "legends of the Claddugh ring".75.21.146.222 (talk) 10:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

This Claddagh piece points out that Hardiman's story about Joyce doesn't include all the 'forging a ring in exile for his Galway girlfriend' stuff. That may be as difficult to pin down as some of the other legends. Lelijg (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Info on the Margaret Joyce legend here Lelijg (talk) 17:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually I question how much "info on the legends" will help this article. We don't need faerie tales, we need actual fact, notes about customs and usage. I was the editor who changed the wording about the orientation because no one seems to know how to express this in writing. I.e. the orientation of the ring-symbol. If it is wearer-oriented that means you see it the right way when you look at it...meaning to another it is seen upside-down. When it is viewer-oriented it means it's worn so that everyone can see what it is, and it looks right-side-up to a viewer. And this has an impact on the symbolism.

If worn on the RIGHT hand top-of-crown oriented toward wearer, it's "right-side-up" and it means there's a boyfriend, whereas upside-down means looking for boyfriend. When an engagement takes place the ring is transferred to the left hand but the point of the heart rather than the crown faces the wearer. It is turned around when the woman is married. That is how I learned it. Why all this fuss about how to write it? Why not just put photos?

Also, stop running to websites! They don't know what the hell they're talking about with website info, which is plagiarized from dummies in the first place.75.21.152.167 (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Claddugh, a historical definiens

Something vital about the classification of the Claddugh ring: this article rightfully mentions the fede ring (mani-in-fede). However, Jones and Kunz do NOT classify the Claddugh as a fede ring--it is "an Irish WEDDING/BETROTHAL ring" as these scientists classify it.

A fede ring has clasped hands--the Claddugh does not have clasped hands. So it's inspired by the fede but is not a fede in itself. To say Claddugh is "inspired by" the fede ring is correct. If no one has a heart attack, I'm going to try once again to rectify the rhetoric of the article ref this point.

May I also give another stab at re-writing the orientations of the ring? Can I just say it's a subject that has altered over the years? Though Jones is clear enough, and as he is the oldest and best source, well....75.21.152.167 (talk) 16:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Joyce Family details Sorry, but this unverified and frankly ponderous info doesn't belong in an article about Claddugh rings. I have removed it, again. Why not make a link to another page?75.21.152.167 (talk) 16:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Simple Minds... and Buffy

Some records by Scottish band Simple Minds have a Claddagh symbol on the cover (Live in the City of Light, Silver box...), maybe someone will want to add it to the "Modern usage and the Claddagh in Folklore and Fiction" section.

... and I don't remember "when worn on the left hand, facing in, in the usual "married" configuration - as meaning, "the wearer is destined to be with his or her love forever." in the TV show Buffy the Vampire Slayer... Maybe the source (the book "Bite Me") is wrong... the dialogue in the show is (season 2 episode 13 "Surprise") :

"It's a Claddagh ring. The hands represent friendship, the crown represents loyalty. The heart, well, you know... Wear it with the heart pointing toward you, it means you belong to somebody."

It's Angel talking to Buffy, while giving her his ring.

Hope this helps,

Megatof (talk) 20:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not good enough in english to correct the page if necessary.

This is good resource material for modern usage in a very limited way. The reference to the band and to "Buffy" apparently must be fitted in someplace. However, you must supply the evidence and be sure no copyright violation is occurring--you can show the band's cover art. As to "Buffy", I think it is MORE THAN ENOUGH that it's even mentioned in the article. We need less garbage, not more.75.21.119.97 (talk) 17:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Jumping back in to remind anyone to LOOK HERE 1ST if you want to edit the page. Too much garbage has been added to this in the past, and there is even an admonishment about adding unnecessary material here. I did not add that notation, but I applaud it. If it isn't verifiable Claddagh-ring-related, DON'T ADD IT HERE. Also, let's leave off the "Buffy" references. Just mentioning it with its cited source is more than enough. And I take back anything I said about the band Simple Minds. We can say they often use the ring on their cover art and no more. I don't think it would be wise to use a photo of any of their art here.75.21.119.97 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Modern Usage

The Claddaugh ring has also been used a lot on Days of our lives. 67.78.233.99 (talk) 13:25, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

No need for citation-begging

Hopefully this article is now clean and good enough for the removal of the request for citations/cited sources. I have removed it because it is totally unnecessary. Any floating admins out there come take a look and see for yourselves. Of course if someone swoops in here and adds more crapola to the article, it negates everything I hoped to achieve.75.21.154.247 (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Tweaking is so-so, but...

...please stop messing with the grammar/structure of what is already done. You know who you are, so please cease. The article as about as sharp and well written as it can get. Bravo to whomever added the extra language about Jones and the Claddagh village stuff. By the way, the quote saying the ring is "a heirloom"...is that a typo or is it like that in the original?75.21.111.206 (talk) 15:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It's nice to see the article improving, but there's still a way to go. Getting good quality historical info on this subject is so difficult, and sadly I discovered that Jones "collected" his Claddagh info from Chambers' Book of Days. Where did the statement that he had "seen the custom in practice" come from?

Presumably Kunz used Jones, since he makes the same spelling error.

I've tried to find more good quality sources, and prune out things that don't fit Wikipedia's guidelines as far as I understand them - e.g speculation, or discussing books which don't mention Claddagh rings. Hope you agree with the overall direction. (To answer your question, "a heirloom" is in the original book by the Carter Halls, but must have been a typo.) Lelijg (talk) 09:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, well, as to the query it's just that universally, any word starting with a hard "h" is preceded by "a"-- if the "h" is aspirated then it is preceded by "an". So it would be "an heirloom" since no one pronounces the "h" in that word. That was all--they may have made it out differently in the 19th century + a bit later, so if it is precise, I think "a heirloom" should be followed by a sic.

It is funny, I do not find the precise connexion Sir William Jones has with Hall's work, but it is possible. The addition of Jones' personal knowledge of it is inferred from his own writing. If you have it, re-read it. See if you agree. I don't think it matters, I am actually rather pleased to know for sure where Jones got the info.

Those 19th century people, always copying from one another.

Of course Kunz utilized Jones heavily, as I put in the article, and naturally McCarthy used them both heavily later. I can tell you as an academic, though I feel ashamed I missed Hall's mention of it, this subject has only the books of Jones, Kunz and McCarthy. Really McCarthy is remarkable only because he does not mention the Claddagh. He should have if it mattered back in the 1940s, but he gives no evidence of any knowledge of it.

Sounds like neither Jones nor Kunz had direct knowledge of it either.76.195.80.62 (talk) 10:14, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

There have been other editors - not me - changing "a" to "an" and back again! I'll stick in a [sic]. Yes, those 19th century antiquarians left us with problems - and copying each other was not their only sin.

You can follow the links between Halls, Chambers, Jones online.

Hall

Chambers (search for claddagh)

Jones

And Delamer comments on the connection too. Lelijg (talk) 12:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I am grateful for all of the above. One problem, however: in my edition of Jones, I don't see any acknowledgement of Hall, nothing in Jones' Appendix notes, nothing even in my edition of Kunz. It would be of great help if you managed to put the Hall quote into the article. It would look very nice there and add to it.

If this cannot be done, perhaps some other reference or an external link. I have little time to follow them as you suggest, but if we're not on solid ground, I move that references to Hall be stricken. It's in keeping with the exclusion of anything NOT Claddagh-related.75.21.155.143 (talk) 17:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)--oh, please see new section below....75.21.155.143 (talk) 17:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Hall Belongs!

Apologies, that's why I jumped back in--I read the Hall quote. It is spectacular, I love it, but... I cannot find the precise connexion or proof that Jones necessarily copied Hall. Inspired by Hall, yes, lifted the structure of the text, yes! Probably did copy Hall. Just...I would ask, can we not place the Claddagh ring quote itself (from Hall) into the text of the article, next to Jones'? It certainly belongs there!75.21.155.143 (talk) 17:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Chambers (1863) copied Hall (1843), and then Jones (1877) cites Chambers although he didn't copy him word for word. All 3 use the same pic. Lelijg (talk) 12:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Lord, this article has had the work-over of its life. I only just re-read the article. Henceforth I'm leaving the editing alone, unless I see a gross grammatical blunder. It was good enough as I had it, plus the addition of Hall's quote, but if you people want to muddy it with too much flotsam and jetsam, I'm washing my hands of this...which is what I'm sure you wanted all along anyway.75.21.155.143 (talk) 18:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Fenian ring & Dillon

The addition of the Fenian version of the Claddagh is nice. While you find the citations to support the statements, the statements should NOT be there. (About the crown and why it doesn't appear on the Fenian ring.)

My wife's Irish grandmother who died aged 94 explained to me that this Fenian ring was bereft of crown as a direct statement against THE Crown, and a secret plea for the disestablishment of the monarchy. See, I did not add anything like that to the article because that is what someone told me. I cannot use myself or my wife's grandmother as a source.

The same goes for placing any sort of statements that are not backed by proper authority, or leaving the authority out of the statement.76.195.86.50 (talk) 06:13, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

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Hopped back in to note: I have removed what I think is quite excessive in the details department by Dillon. Don't make the same error I did and just trust what someone wrote just because they wrote it.

If you want to add features of that sort under a topic, I suggest you word it better and add corroboration. You are winding down a steep, dark staircase with all this about Hall and Dillon. It is unnecessary unless you can support it and word it better.76.195.86.50 (talk) 06:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I guess one person's "excessive" is another person's "comprehensive"! I don't really agree with depriving readers of the information that Claddagh rings may have been made of metals other than gold, and cutting back the part about the rings being worn beyond the Claddagh and Galway town. However, I don't feel strongly enough to suggest any changes except the word "claim" about Dillon's report of Claddagh rings being worn in the Aran Isles, Connemara etc. There are plenty of reasons to think he should be treated as a serious source on this point (his family had been making and selling rings in Galway since 1750 and other Irish writers say the same thing) and his knowledge should be presented neutrally. I think this is in line with Wikipedia guidelines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CLAIM#Synonyms_for_said

Lelijg (talk) 12:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Well I am not arguing against any appropriate citations. Going back through a whole family or subject history is unnecesssary in an article that is supposed to be merely about the ring itself.75.21.159.227 (talk) 17:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Citations from McCarthy, Kunz and Jones

PLEASE STOP removing the above authors from the References section. These are authoritative books and the only existing books about rings. You will be reported if you persist in this. Those are legitimate (and were rightfully cited until someone moved them).75.21.144.68 (talk) 14:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)