User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 66

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smiles inducement?

david archuleta, wp's most edited (Aol-oct. 6)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(Insert facepalm here). An article about someone who "has become in 2010 the subject of a Wikipedia free-for-all,", based on a page that lists the most edited pages from the "Period: 2008-04-24 — 2008-05-23"? Of course "Lady Gaga falls outside the top 5,000.", she only released her debut album in August 2008, i.e. 3 months after this list was compiled... Fram (talk) 08:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

In the author's defence, the fact that the list was very out-of-date wasn't that obvious until I made this edit in response to the article]. Graham87 11:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Trying hard to beat you Mr. Wales

• Would love your comments on the meta page where I'm trying my hardest to beat you, if you have time. Sincerely. Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 14:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Latuff cartoons

Hi Jimbo,

You may be intersted in following the discussion now going on on Commons Village Pump about the categorization of Carlos Latuff's cartoons. People have been hurt because of this dispute (some are blocked now) and I fail to understand why we couldn't come yet to a fair and rational solution. I quite agree with you that it is unnacceptable to browse Commons searching for material on anti-semitism and anti-sionism and not finding any of those cartoons. Cheers, Alvesgaspar (talk) 12:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The block was draconian - just a single revert was called "edit warring" and "disruption". Abuse of the admin buttons, I would say. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:13, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

That the cartoons are deliberately and unambiguously antisemitic is without serious doubt.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that. It is just something some Jewish lobbying organizations say. They also said that about File:Dave Brown's Goya Ariel Sharon.jpg. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 23:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

That one is also unambiguously antisemitic, too. If depicting Jews eating babies is not antisemitic, then what is?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Wearing a pendant of a Jew named Jesus (who said this is my blood, drink it in remembrance of me; this is my body, eat it in remembrance of me) being executed for blasphemy/sedition on a cross? WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Cleared of antisemitism. Please be a bit more careful with "there can be no doubt". /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 00:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The cartoon is unambiguously antisemitic. Of this there is no reasonable doubt.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, did you read the article? Alluding to Saturn Devouring His Son is not an unreasonable practice in creating editorial cartoons. The cartoon was published two days before the Israeli elections, clearly as commentary on Sharon's policies towards Gaza. It contained no Jewish insignia, and no implications of Blood libel. As the PCC properly ruled, it is "unreasonable to expect editors to take into account all possible interpretations of material that they intend to publish" [1]. Just because some people took an antisemitic message from it (that it was accusing Sharon of blood libel) does not mean that this was the intended meaning. To call any cartoon depicting anyone who is Jewish engaging in any sort of eating of human "antisemitic" is frankly unreasonable. </rant>. Buddy431 (talk) 00:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• I dislike all forms of racism and discrimination in general but... I don't understand. I don't know any of the background and context of that cartoon but what I see is a depiction of Ariel Sharon, a single human being (being criticized). I don't see either any allusion to his condition as a Jewish person, I see no David star or anything else (again, I may not be recognizing some symbol). Jimbo, do you have a rationale through which also others and not just you can reach to the conclusion about that cartoon being anti-semitic? or should we understand your claim as: "The cartoon is unambiguously antisemitic. Of this [I have] no reasonable doubt." as your personal opinion? Foldedwater (talk) 04:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• Jimbo I am about 90% sure that user:Foldedwater is a confirmed sock of my personal wikihound, a banned user. I am going to file SPI now, so I guess you may ignore his question.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• I think the nature of the cartoons, and similar images, is beyond doubt. However, if they are used in articles such as blood libel to illustrate contemporary examples of that concept, and their use is justifiable subject to general image usage guidelines to support encyclopedic commentary, they should be included. However, we then come up against the barrier of libel, and in that regard alone, we should lean against inclusion, since BLP is, and is intended to be, a conservative policy. Rodhullandemu 00:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

		Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar
		Jimbo, I award you this barnstar for your bravery in calling the things with their real names! Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Religious categorization and our BLP policy

WP:BLP states "Categories regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question; and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to his notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources. " Sadly, it's easy to find lists and categories where this is usually ignored, eg List of former Roman Catholics, Category:Lists of religious converts and of course Category:Lists of people by belief where many of the articles in the category ignore this policy. If we look at an article in one of the lists in that category, Kathy Acker, we find that although it says she was born into a Jewish family, nowhere else does it suggest that she was religious or that her Jewish background was important. Yet she is in 6 different categories of Jews. We have been concerned about our BLP policy as it applies to the general content of articles, we should be equally concerned about our BLP policy in labelling people. Dougweller (talk) 14:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

There have been a number of related discussions recently in which I was tempted to contact you because I knew you would react in this way. Now that Dougweller has opened the topic, I am no longer resisting that urge. See WP:Village pump (policy)/Archive 79#Self-Identification versus Verifiable Fact. for just one recent attempt to make it acceptable to call living people Jewish based on "verifiability", even when they explicitly don't self-identify that way. This was taken way too seriously by too many editors, and the same editor is currently trying to get BLP changed. Hans Adler 15:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Dougweller on not putting individuals into categories based on religion (or sexual oreintation) unless they self-identify as such (and for Jews it is possible to self-identify as a Jew without identifying as part of the religion, many converts and "half-Jews" raised in another religion still identify as Jews). But, disagree with what Hans is talking about, identifying someone in the article as Jewish (or whatever religion, race, etc). If someone's religion or race or whatever has been covered by a third-party reliable secondary source then it was notable for that person writing the article or book in the first place and we must assume it was notable for the reader and for our readers and therefore we should use it. If we didnt then, for example, we would be having President Barack Obama mentioned only as African-American because that is in fact what he personally refers to himself, he does not in fact refer to himself as "half-white half-black" or "mulatto" or various other terms used by some, though he does mention his white mother and grandparents and is proud of them. I see no conflict in splitting the hair and allowing this dual way of mentioning or not mentioning people's backgrounds.Camelbinky (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The editor in question has been pushing the view that an actor with one Jewish parent can be included on List of Jewish actors even if this heritage has nothing to do with their notability and they are on record as saying that they don't consider themselves Jewish. That's the kind of thing that makes me as a German go up the wall because it sounds so familiar. And of course it's original research: If the reliable sources generally only report that an actor's father or mother is/was Jewish, it's not up to us to decide that therefore they are Jewish themselves. In my opinion, not even to the limited extent of including them on a list of Jews with a disclaimer. This is only a small step away from putting people into religious or sexual orientation categories that they reject, also based on "objective" criteria, and doing it without a reliable source is of course much worse. I am having serious difficulties assuming good faith of an editor who argues in this way. Hans Adler 23:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree with you about that Hans. Lists are a dangerous thing, especially about people and putting them in categories and without reliable sources. Without knowing the specific editor you are referring to, (and feel free to contact me on my talk page to let me know who and specifically what they are doing I'd like to help) if it is a matter of the editor adding people to the list of Jews because their MOTHER is a Jew then it may be misguided good faith additions on their part as from the perspective of Jews (well, Orthodox and Conservative at least) if your mother is Jewish you ARE Jewish whether the person identifies themself as one of us or not, being a Jew is not a choice you make, you still have obligations and responsibilities to G-d (and then it's between them and Him if the person rejects their role and duties as a Jew). On the flip side this editor could be a neo-NAZI who likes to pigeon-hole people into categories for nefarious reasons, and then there is every motive in between. Discovering the editor-in-question's motives may be the first step towards "educating" them on being a better editor.Camelbinky (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Based on the links above you will have no trouble at all identifying the editor. I am generally reluctant to accuse an editor of being a nazi, and what looks like a real-name account is reason for even more caution. (Even though the name seems to be common enough, as it is shared by a Canadian politician and a US surgeon.) His claim that he is a film maker abusing the encyclopedia as a casting agency is actually plausible, since there is a film maker of that name. But regardless of his motivations it's simply a dangerous idea to change BLP so as to allow extending the awful practice of ethnicity-based categories and explicitly permit "Jewish" categories with inclusion criteria that ignore self-identification, provided that the category's description says it uses Jewish as an ethnic criterion. The proliferation of categories and lists of BLPs that arbitrarily combine ethnicity with other criteria needs to be contained, not encouraged. We have actually had editors copying entries from Stormfront-quality antisemitic sites to such lists. This is no wonder, since apart from such sites only Wikipedia seems to have such lists. Hans Adler 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I suggest starting the process for wholesale deletion of all racial, ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, etc categories, if for some reason I can not fathom there is a legitimate reason for a category that ends up getting deleted during the wholesale deletion then it can be dealt with later and reinstated ("Delete them all, let G-d sort it out"). What is the proper venue for getting that done?Camelbinky (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Hans Adler, Thanks for not inviting me to this party; clearly you want to make further Ad hominem attacks against me without me knowing. If you cannot treat me in a civil manner, please refrain from making any comments about me at all. I will address the rest of your comments in due course but for now just remember that I actively encouraged your input into the debate on BLPCAT and you yet again attacked me rather than helping the discussion. There are many editors discussing the issue from both sides and this debate here contains issues that should be raised and addressed there. I do not intend to change BLP personally and have not made a bold edit on BLP, I have however opened the question up to a healthy debate on the subject. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 11:58, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please note that above I have said that in my opinion you are probably not a nazi. (Although I didn't want to lie and deny that the question has crossed my mind.) That should tell you that I have no inherent interest in attacking you as a person. The problem as I see it is that you lack sensitivity for the impact that Wikipedia can have on the lives of people who appear in our lists and articles. Hans Adler 12:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I note that but I also note that you state I was "abusing the encyclopedia" by looking something up in an existing article - that is the purpose of an encyclopedia if I choose to look up Kentucky_Derby_top_three_finishers to help me to decide which horse to bet, on I am not "abusing the encyclopedia" as a tipster. From the five pillars Wikipedia "incorporates elements of general and specialized encyclopedias, almancs, and gazetteers." this information exists because it fulfils wikipedia's purpose as an almanac.

I also note that you state I was "pushing the view that an actor with one Jewish parent can be included on List of Jewish actors even if this heritage has nothing to do with their notability". The debate on that page was whether the inclusion of the actress made the article a bad one - I never attempted to revert any of JayJG's edits on the subject, I simply debated that her inclusion had some merit and that her Jewish parentage had notability in the roles she has chosen to perform and in stories she has written/directed. Also in the debate, I questioned JayJG's stance that any criteria can be self identified - if the latter is true then if a notable white individual claims to be black then we have to categorise them as such, if an American citizen claims to be Nigerian then we have to categorise them as such, if a Woman claims to be a man then we have to categorise them as such - even when doing so flies in the face of a consensus of reliable secondary sources that prove they are not what they claim to be. Thinking I may be wrong in this belief I took it to WP:VPP I did not notify either of you because I was looking to clarify my understanding of Policy in this regard not to debate the argument any further.

I do not lack sensitivity for the impact that Wikipedia can have on the lives of people who appear in our lists and articles, but I do believe that a clear policy should be laid out so that editors (and the people who appear in the list) can be pointed to it. Many of the editors I have spoken to about this have their own interpretation of who is "Jewish" and the criteria required to include/exclude someone from that categorisation. People who do not appear in lists may equally be impacted by the fact they are left out of lists that they feel they should be in (and the Jewish actors list has seen requests from actors who are not yet notable enough to be included.) a heavy handed approach in either direction will impact so we must keep a NPOV and debate a sensible guideline. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I noted this elsewhere but perhaps not everyone is following that discussion, so I wanted to present it here. We now have a reliable source (well, it is used more than 100 times in Wikipedia and looks like a nice enough web magazine) which says that I am Jewish. In fact, of course, I am not Jewish, not by anyone's definition. (Not religiously, not ethnically, neither by practice nor tradition, nor in any other way.) I am not sure that I would suggest wholesale deletion, although if asked I likely wouldn't say no to that idea. But I very strongly support a couple of principles here: (a) Rigorous sourcing for any religion/ethnic type of material is not too much to ask for, particularly for lists (b) Equal treatment for all ethnicities and religions - the detailed facts will be different in different situations, but we should be principled in our evaluations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for this brilliant example. If you don't know where the author got the idea from – maybe it started with the conspiracy theory websites that you can find if you search for your name and "ziopedia" and then sickered through to less obviously crackpot media. "Equal treatment for all ethnicities and religions". I am not claiming to have an overview (so I may be stressing the wrong points), but we are of course far from that:

• The community seems to accept ethnic divisions by "race" or similar criteria in a US context, but less so in other contexts. This may be related to Americans' fascination with the origins of their ancestors, but it has problematic effects. I think it is typically the "marked" case, i.e. non-"white", non-"WASP" etc. that gets such arbitrary intersections, as in list of Black Canadians. (This one is not likely to survive an AfD. Note the misspelled title indicating a general lack of attention so far.)
• The Jewish case is a very special one and deserves special attention: (1) Religion and ethnicity interact in complex ways. (2) There is an "official" technical criterion (child of a Jewish mother or conversion) that is often cited but not universally accepted, and which contradicts the principle of self-identification. (3) And of course conspiracy theorists who are obsessed with the topic. Under these circumstances I see nothing wrong with treating this case with different criteria. Hans Adler 12:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of making special cases for anyone. Religion is a very personal thing. A person could be born Jewish but could, perhaps, prefer not to be identified as Jewish, could be an atheist, or something entirely different. Religion and ethnicity should generally be declared only under two conditions: (1) the person has self-identified as belonging to that religious or ethnic group or (2) the religion or ethnicity of that person is an important part of that person's notability or identity. Of these, the second condition should be the primary reason for inclusion. Other than these two conditions, I don't see why we should go around labeling people as this or that. --RegentsPark (talk) 12:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with RegentsPark. Even in the case where a person's ethnicity is an important part of their notability, I do not see a need for ethnicity-based lists. Leaders of neo-Nazi or other racist organizations self-identify as Caucasian, and surely that self-identification is an important part of their notability, but I don't see a list of Caucasians. Listing self-identifiers by religion may be another matter, but the list of people who's religious affiliation is an important part of their notability is much more specific and limited. I would suggest deleting ethnicity based lists (including Jews), but allowing religious ones, and if someone wants to make a list of people who self-identify as Jewish religion, and whose religion is an important part of their notability, let them. Revcasy (talk) 13:12, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The special treatment of "Jewish" is necessary if our rules for ethnicity are more relaxed than those for religion. There are specific rules in BLP for associating someone with a religion or sexual orientation, but not for similar associations with nationality or ethnicity. Thus we have notability and self-identification as necessary criteria for calling someone a Hindu or gay, but not for calling someone British (they might be Welsh and object to the term – this case is covered in a specific guideline, though) or a Hutu or Tutsi.

I agree with nuking all the arbitrary religion- and ethnicity-based lists and categories, but I have had little support when I argued this way in a concrete AfD. Usually people make fantastic claims about special relevance of some religion or ethnicity to the topic. E.g. if we had a category for butchers, subcategories for Muslim and Jewish butchers would make some sense because of their special practices, but there are people who would argue we need categories for Hindu carpenters because they might be involved in the construction of religious objects. Hans Adler 13:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

In the case of Jewish religion/ethnicity/practice etc. ought WP restrict use of categories labelling a person as a "Jewish (something)" to the most restrictive meaning - that is apply only to people who are considered Jewish by a restrictive set of rules (recognized conversion or birth .and. religious practice)? Thus ensuring that no one affected by such a list could be wrongly or misleadingly included? And ought such restrictve interpretation be included for all categories, including political, for any person living or dead? Collect (talk) 14:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If we need to have such categories, I believe that in the special case of the Jews, where it is both an ethnicity and a religion, we should have two separate categories, one for people who are ethnically Jewish, and one for those that self-identify as being religiously Jewish. All religious categories should only be applied to people that self)identify with the religion, and where the religion is a factor in their notability (e.g. priests and monks, obviously, but also some politicians). Ethnicity should preferably not be used as a categorization tool, and should be replaced by something less contentious like nationality (not that that is not contentious, but there are more objective rules: no matter if you are ethnically French, Basque, Breton, Corsican, or any other ethnicity you feel you belong to, you have the French nationality if that is what your passport says). Ethnicity, if used, should only be used for people self-identifying as such, or where their supposed ethnicity played an important role in their life. Fram (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a slippery slope that we should not go down. The definition of 'Jewish' depends on who is doing the defining, and this is true both for the religion as well as the ethnicity. There are, for example, Jewish groups that accept converts and other groups that stick to rigid hereditary definitions. There are groups that accept the existence of ethiopian jews and other groups that do not. There are muslims, albeit very few, who have converted to judaism in Israel and can exist as jewish because they share the semitic characteristics. I don't think we should be getting into definitional issues but should stick solely with identification issues because that is better reported neutrally.--RegentsPark (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with RegentsPark there are so many interpretations of who is included in Jewish categories that attempts to simplify into either "Ethnic" or "Religous" may miss out people who are genuinely identified and may self identify as Jewish. There also becomes an issue with how sources identify the individual if the identification is just as "Jewish" then by choosing which categorisation of Jewish holds then we're performing synthesis. My overriding concern is that this issue is handled with neutrality because some editors have opposing views from one another which is why I raised this at WT:BLP in the first place. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I saw a TV show a little while back in which the genes of several people were traced to identify their ancestry. One lady looked Mexican, was from Mexico, and self identified as native Mexican. The DNA test revealed that she had over 50% European heritage. These lists are so simplistic as to mislead more than they enlighten. Nuke 'em. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Growing up, my parents had some friends, a married Mexican couple, in a big Mexican city. The youngest daughter was blonde, blue eyed, pale, looked Scandinavian. She was 1/4 Chichimeca, 3/4s Spanish (half of which was Castillian), all of which they had fun talking about. These cats mislead far too often and far too much OR goes into them (as with this post). Gwen Gale (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I have never been comfortable seeing human beings categorised. I find many of these categories repellent. Regarding the numerous Jewish categories, I see no need for them at all. If the subject is notable as a rabbi or President of Israel then then the Judaism will be evident - we don't need a category Jew - to me, it's only one step from placing a yellow star on the page. One could take this further and extend it to Roman Catholics, Muslims, Mormons et al and I would support that too, but for obvious reasons those categories don't have the same connotations as a list of Jews. Seeing people here talk of "half-Jews" is even more obnoxious - is there such a being? In short, if a reader wants to know where someone worships, where their father was born (or was not born) or who the subject goes to bed with, let them read the article.  Giacomo  21:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Content without context is merely pretext. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Giano makes an excellent point. I think that categorizing humans in neat little pigeonholes is intrinsically pejorative. Even if the categories end up being perfectly neutral, strictly objective and sourced up the wazoo, they have no encyclopedic value whatsoever.

But, perhaps more importantly, I've never seen anyone make such categories without an agenda. By definition, it's an exercise in classifying "us" and "them": at best, it's dehumanizing, and such demarcations have only nefarious uses. — Coren ^(talk) 22:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(e-c)As both a Jew (and a half-Jew at that) and the one that used that term (and I'm not sure if someone else did as well) I'd like to tell GiacomoReturned- there is nothing wrong with that term and it is one that is used extensively in the Orthodox community for someone who's mother is not Jewish. Often those who are ritually circumcised (by Orthodox or Conservative) and raised as Jewish even if their mother is not (such as me) will not be called that term since technically we are converts from the age of 8 days old, but a Reform Jew whose mother is not Jewish or a person whose father is Jewish but they themselves are non-religious or raised in "another religion" will be called a "half-Jew" based on the father's ethnicity. This is a Jewish thing, it is not my fault if non-Orthodox Jews find it "offensive", it is no more offensive than Tiger Woods referring to himself as Blasian or whatever. Another thing I have a problem with is, while I agree listing any group as a category is wrong- a list of Jews is more abhorrent than a list of Muslims, Mormons, or Catholics? Really, could non-Jews please stop thinking we are this defenseless group about to become extinct and the worst things in the world have only happened to the Jews. Thanks but we've existed for longer than those other groups combined, maybe not with a great track record but we are still here. I for one am proud to be a Jew even though the others in my own congregation do not consider me to be one from birth and am not afraid to be in that category, one of the first books I ever read on my own was "Jewish Baseball Stars" and it made me quite proud to see the long list of biographies of Jewish baseball stars and how we once dominated that sport (and we also dominated early basketball btw). It is good to point out in an article whether someone is Jewish or not, to have a huge category no. These conversations about classifying people always degenerates into how to classify Jews, and that classifying Jews is worse than any classifying of other people. We really dont want your pity, thanks.Camelbinky (talk) 22:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

"it made me quite proud to see the long list of biographies of Jewish baseball stars and how we once dominated that sport" Thank you for the excellent example of us vs. them mentality that such categories promote. — Coren ^(talk) 22:57, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

First of all there is no problem with me being proud of my heritage and what other Jews have done. Second of all I agree that categorization is wrong, if you read the entire thread you would see I was like the third one to comment here and I even said that. So I'm not quite sure why you care how I worded that, do you have a problem with someone being proud of others of their race, religion, heritage? Hmm, I guess my son (who is half-black, half-Hispanic) shouldnt be proud of there Jackie Robinson or President Obama. Thanks for letting me know that such a mentality is bad and promotes terrible "us versus them" mentality. I'm glad I gave you an excellent example and thank you for the excellent example of people who think it is terrible for individuals to be proud of their heritage, which is much worse.

I don't know that I agree with the extremist deletion tendency here.

The lists and categories are problematic for all sorts of reasons - because they're often wrong or simplistic, often updated or maintained by people with extremist agendas of some sort, and for most of the people so categorized or listed aren't a major part of their identity.

But the idea that someone being jewish isn't encyclopedic or notable (or, black, Hutu, agnostic, Italian, or whatever) ever and that we should do away with the lists or categories seems wrong.

The information is like any information - sometimes useful, sometimes notable, sometimes wrong, sometimes harmful in the hands of the wrong people. It being true that we should manage it better doesn't mean we should not remove it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If a number of people are culturally Jewish and are notable for representing that culture in the arts (Singer, Musician, Actor, Artist, Writer, etc.) surely that is notability enough to create a category or list? If a number of of people have Jewish Lineage and are notable for investigation of or connecting with that lineage or connecting together others of the same lineage (Politician, Historian, Archaeologist, Sociologist, Ethnologist, etc) then surely that deserves categorisation? If an individual is Jewish and is notable for their religious position (Rabbi, Theologian, Outspoken Aetheist, Cardinal, Pope, etc) then surely that deserves categorisation? Even more obscure subjects by may be notable enough to warrant categorisation for instance "Jewish Physicists" is notable when the historical context of the early 1930's and the debate of "German Physics" vs "Jewish Physics" was in force. There is reason and notability for categorisation but the important thing is that is is carried out in a balanced way. Every category has to be considered on it's own notability. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 23:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Even if some/most/all of the categories are notable, they are still heavily abused and are a target for BLP violations. How do we deal with this? Ignore it? Dougweller (talk) 12:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they are any more abused than any other category however they are more likely to receive Good Faith edits which are made with less discretion than is required . I believe the problem stems from the multiple definitions of who can be included within the category and a lack of genuine sourcing to guarantee inclusion. Editors may allow entries to remain which should be dropped and may drop entries which should be retained - it was for this reason that I raised the question at BLP, not seeking to widen the inclusion criteria but to ensure there were firm boundaries that editors could refer to.

We do have a substantial task ahead in that to correct the existing errors means going through every category and list and checking that every entry is reliably sourced as belonging there - and not just "Jewish" categories and lists either because I believe the problem affects any religion, any ethnicity, any nationality related categories and possibly others I have not yet considered. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Another try? Bar all categorization of living people entirely with the only exceptions being where they openly self-identify with a category, and only for the purpose of fairly broad categories at that. Not just religion. Collect (talk) 14:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

You don't think that might affect our encyclopaedic value? Particularly since other encyclopaedias and almanacs provide this same information after the rigorous fact checking that we require. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Other encyclopedias have a Category:Jewish atheists as well, with people like Marty Nemko, whose article mentions neither him being Jewish or him being an atheist? Or with someone like Leonid Hambro, who comes from a Jewish family and self-identified as an atheist, but where neither had anything to do with his notability? Why is it important to categorize David Benatar as a Jewish atheist? Or Nina Hartley? Samuel Mitja Rapoport? Barthold Fles? Fram (talk) 14:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I did say that the categories were lacking rigorous fact checking, I also said it was a substantial task to correct them. Individuals such as Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Ayn Rand, Leonard Peikoff, Yemelyan Yaroslavsky, and others are notable for their atheism whilst being Jewish. However Collect's suggestion was to "Bar all categorization of living people entirely with the only exceptions being where they openly self-identify with a category, and only for the purpose of fairly broad categories at that." other encyclopaedia's list and and categorise living people into generally non-contentious categories on the basis of reliable secondary sourcing so we don't need an individual to self-identify that they won a Nobel Prize to categorise them in Category:Nobel_laureates we do however need a consensus of reliable secondary sources. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Category:Jewish pornographic film actors? What the !"!!$"? Dougweller (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not justifying that one, some of the editors who have contributed to it's creation or commented on it's talk page might.... Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 16:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Categorization can be very dangerous. It has proven to be the cause of genocides through the centuries. This is true for Greeks, Romans, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, African tribal groups and the list can go on. Categorization has been used as a weapon in the hands of tyrants. In many instances categorization is used to escape individual responsibility. Categorization is a step away from tolerance. (Salmon1 (talk) 17:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC))

Sorry, but Categorization can be very dangerous. It has proven to be the cause of reform through the centuries. This is true in allowing people to get the vote, Stopping mistreatment and enslavement, overthrowing occupying forces and the list can go on. Categorization has been used as a shield in the hands of patriots. In many instances categorization is used to unify those who are divided. Categorisation is a fact of life. However your point is somewhat errant - WP does not categorise people; it should simply record what categories they either place themselves into or are reliably categorised by secondary sources - though it has not be applied adequately BLP should stop most abuses. Taking a position that we should assume bad faith on the part of editors making these categorisation or even on the part of readers using the information is a bad approach and possibly damaging to the encyclopaedia if used widely. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:53, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I entirely disagree with Stuart.Jamieson. In the beginning of the discussion on “Religious categorization and our BLP policy” Dougweller pointed to the accepted rules:

”WP:BLP states "Categories regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question; and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to his notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.”

I hope that the majority’s common sense will continue to win the day and the WP:BLP rule will continue to be enforced (Salmon1 (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC))

Yes, and I agree with that policy and have now several times said that if the categorisation is purely religious it has to be a) self identified and b) a person who's religious belief is important as an aspect of their notability. However we're not just talking about Religion or Sexual Orientation in your previous comment you mention "Greeks, Romans, and African Tribal Groups" these are not religious groups - similarly if a stand up comedian tells jokes about the Jewish Culture in which they were raised even if they are not religious then they are likely to be categorised as a Jewish Comedian by reliable secondary sources and their categorisation as Jewish is part of their culture not their Religion but it remains something they are notable for being and a category it seems reasonable to report on. Taking a hard line that all Jewish Categories are about religion, requiring a self-identification and religion to be a notable part of that person's life is liable to affect encyclopaedic value.

Your last comment is confusing, because this isn't about stopping enforcing BLP its about being clear as to how BLP should be applied when a category can be considered in several different ways. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 06:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

long term vandal/sockmaster adding these

An editor has posted to my talk page pointing out that many of these seem to be being added by one editor using BT dynamic IP addresses. He adds "Background ishere andhere, and the latest incarnation is 86.178.22.126 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)." and asks for guidance on dealing with this. Dougweller (talk) 13:53, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations!

• 
  A bunch of flowers, because you were awarded the Gottlieb Duttweiler award in Bern, Switzerland! Congratulations!
  User:TBloemink/Signature

Heh, what's in a name? ("Bloem" is flower ;-) ). Congrats from me two (sic ;-))! --Kim Bruning (talk) 15:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

600 000 articles

Russian Wikipedia has 600 000 articles. --А.С.Сидорченко (talk) 05:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

This talk page is full of sycophancy...

...so let me let you know that I don't like Wikipedia ONE BIT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.203.2 (talk) 08:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Self defeating statement, unless the ip editor wants to change it to "This talk page, above this comment, is full of sycophancy... Except for the side bar and page headers, obviously." This would likely be fairly accurate, and - I suggest - an improvement. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:15, 9 October 2010 (UTC) ps. Your opinion is uncited.

You are welcome to go ahead and refactor any of my comments to remove (or perhaps introduce) paradox. Regards, 86.178.203.2 (talk) 10:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia Going Green

Here's what I would like to ask you Jimbo (and anyone else who wants to weigh in), should wikipedia go green? With over $6,000,000 in sever fees it could be a very profitable investment. Could the power consumption statistics at least be released?--Iankap99 (talk) 23:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Where did you get your figures from because I highly doubt server fees are over $6mil. —Ғяіᴆaз'§Đøøм • Champagne? • 9:31pm • 10:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Annual_Report Sorry 1 mil--Iankap99 (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

That's still a massive overestimate. Total "hosting costs" were $822,000, of which the majority went to bandwidth fees. I'd estimate that the total cost for things like cooling and power is well under $100,000, and possibly under $10,000. --Carnildo (talk) 23:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, some hosting costs are donated, so the total cooling and power bill for *someone* may be higher than that. But you're right within a a reasonable approximation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• It is an interesting point however, to provide an answer to the question "how green is Wikipedia?" A technology-intensive project such as ours could be addressing that, and if we are seen to be doing so successfully, might even attract additional funding from interested parties. I think it's an issue we should be considering. Rodhullandemu 00:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

depends on how you measure it. Per user pretty green since the servers don't do much processing for the vast majority of requests.©Geni 03:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

We could paint the servers to make them greener... Or perhaps someone would pay to fit the WMF office with solar panels or something? It's certainly interesting and I'm sure the WMF, like any organisation, could fin some way of reducing its impact on the environment, but it's not as if it has anything like the "carbon footprint" of any of the organisations behind the other 9 top websites for example. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Yea thats all I'm saying, fit it with solar panels. This would even be a profitable investment, to eliminate the costs of power for the next 20 years with one investment. --Iankap99 (talk) 03:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It could fin a way to reduce its impact on the environment? That would be interesting to watch. :) Not be be the spelling police, or anything. ~~ Hi878 ^{(Come shout at me!)} 04:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

So long as it's not olive drab, might look too 'military'. I suppose the trend is for servers etc to become more energy efficient, but who can afford the 'latest' equipment? Or is that being donated? (By the way, Hi Jimbo!, my first post to your page!) - 220.101 talk^\Contribs 05:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I wonder how much energy is spent (or wasted depending on your POV) contributing to Wikipedia and its sister projects. ~DC ^{We Can Work It Out} 05:28, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikimedia is a charity with an educational rather than environmental purpose, so I suspect that any significant investment in reducing its carbon footprint would need to be justified on cost grounds. That carbon footprint also includes flying a lot of people round the world for Wikimania, a footprint that could be reduced by moving some of the conference into cyberspace. The last Wikimania had good video streaming but it would be much greener if people could participate remotely by skype. ϢereSpielChequers 07:46, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure at least on question in the last board election concerned ways the foundation was trying to reduce the environmental impact or carbon footprint. It seems if this is something that concerns anyone, they should make sure their vote counts for the next election. Edit: Though so, see Meta:Board elections/2009/Candidates/Questions/1#Anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Practically, going carbon neutral is likely to involve offsetting carbon emissions, and I was pleased to see, reading the discussion above, that Wikimedia is actually doing some of this (Meta:Press releases/Wikimedia Selects EvoSwitch June 2009). Wnt (talk) 19:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

In practical terms it is extremely doubtful if the servers make up a significant percentage of wikipesia's CO2 emissions. The computers of readers and editors probably make up most of them.©Geni 17:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

hetzner has 0% carbon emissions? O:-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This comes up on the mailing lists every once in a while, e.g. "Green stuff." --MZMcBride (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

From the snail lady

Hi Jimbo, I just wanted to let you know I sent you an email. Thanks and best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 23:18, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Russian Wikipedia reached 600,000 articles!

just want to say that.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 15:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Dateline NBC

Mr. James Wales. Hi, this is Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC. I'm doing an ongoing investigation regarding the existence of child pornography stored within the Wikipedia Foundation servers. If there is anything else you like to say, you are free to email me at c.hansen@nbc.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.20.197 (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... if Chris Hansen lives in Connecticut and Studio 3B is in New York, why are you writing from an anonymous AT&T IP address in Austin, Texas? (If you are the real Chris Hansen, you know, your article doesn't have a single free-licensed snapshot of you, and To Catch a Predator could use some still shots and maybe a choice video clip... surely this could help to advance your cause?) Wnt (talk) 19:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

This was obviously trolling. If anyone in the media wants to get in touch with me, they know how to pick up the phone and call the foundation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

"We tried to contact Mr. Wales to get his side of the story, but he did not call back..." ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

It looks real to me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.5.194 (talk) 20:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Not so real, considering on his userpage Jimbo gives the information "If your press inquiry is strictly regarding Wikipedia or another Wikimedia project, you can contact me directly by e-mail or you can call the Foundation office and speak to our communications person, Jay, at +1 415 839 6885." If a reporter wanted to contact him, they would use that method. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 20:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, that email is from LA, not NY or CT. Ronk01 talk 22:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

im with jimbo, this has to be someone from 4chan Sophie ^(Talk) 13:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

jimmywales.com is broken

I'm not sure if you know (or care), but http://jimmywales.com/ is broken. It looks like the CSS page (<http://search.wikia.com/blog/wp-content/themes/default/style.css>) is on a poorly configured server. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Assuming Good Faith in the real world

Hey Jimbo! In recent weeks I have found many instances in the "real world" where I am applying WP policy. For example, being in the hotel industry, I am a bit of a specialist in resolving conflicts, whether it is a complaint from a guest, or a brewing dispute among the employees. As I have become more and more involved in the Wikipedia process over the last few months, I have caught myself a number of times telling my employees to "assume good faith" when dealing with a complaint or difficult hotel guest. And, you know what? The message really comes across to them perfectly...and it has really helped to de-escalate some tricky situations. Anyway, I just think that's great, and thought you would like to know. I wonder if other Wikipedians have had a similar experience? Thanks for everything! The Eskimo (talk) 03:03, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I have. WP:OWN is another wiki rule that I have found to be very useful in real life, although not as life-changing as WP:AGF. Hans Adler 09:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Now, if only we could impose WP:V on the demagogues that plague politics we'd be all set.  :-) — Coren ^(talk) 11:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL would be good policies to impose on politicians too Ronk01 talk 16:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that Wikipedia really is introducing the general public to the idea of providing inline references for a news article. While many news sources still stubbornly refuse to provide links to the documents or organizations they cite, it is no longer unheard of for them to do so. And even some of the Obama campaign documents from 2008 cited a handful of sources. Though progress is slow, I think that this is one of the many unsung contributions Wikipedia is making to society. Wnt (talk) 18:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I also find myself thinking about WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, especially when reading/watching the news. The Eskimo (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

While I agree with you on synthesis, I would actually prefer that the news outlets do a little original and secondary research before they write a story. (WP:RS in the real world?) Zaereth (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, I suppose a professional journalist would find their job very difficult without OR. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of those silly polls they tend to make up (especially here in Jackson, MS the local news does this ALL the time) where the questions are loaded. (Do you think underfunded public schools could do a better job teaching your children? 99% say YES. Sheesh). But I take your point. The Eskimo (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Very cool conversation. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, one philosophy that I told my mum to use when she was criticising me recently is WP:NPOV. That somehow doesn't seem to be working that well with her though. But in real life, some of the points that I have learnt here, I've found pretty invaluable, especially in my studies and projects, where I've found the concepts of verifiability, referencing and yes, neutral point of view fantastically helpful. By the way, have you ever heard that "The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict"?[2] Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 12:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Please help me with one of your users. Misserma

I am having so much trouble with a crazy woman about an edit on Algernon Capell. I do have proof of my edit about there being two sons. Because of her I left Tutor site. She thinks I am making up this person so I can claim that I am related to this line. I have done my geneology for fun but people like her make you want to stop. I want to get off of this site with my user name. Please check and see how she has acted. My user name is misserma. I do not appreciate her putting this kind of information about me. Thanks for your help. I have tried to get off of here myself but I am not that computer savy. Thanks for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Misserma (talk • contribs) 23:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't let something like this make you want to leave. It looks like the two of you just don't agree on something. That happens all the time. I would suggest that you take another close look at the information you want to add. You should also re-read her comments to make sure you understand what she is saying. I'm sure the two of you can have a discussion on the talk page, and work out a compromise. If not, leave me a message here, and I'll help you start a Request for Comment page so that other people can look at what is going on. (Also, after you leave a message, and the very end type four of these ~ That's the code for your signature. The Eskimo (talk) 14:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

A problem.

Hello Mr. Wales! You probably know this already but just to remind you, your project is in danger of being overrun by policy police. A culture in which everyone is now scared to use WP:IAR or shot down for it despite it being one of the five pillars is developing and in which the most experienced editors remaining aren't article writers but spam fighters. If the project continues with success, great. If it doesn't, remember this is where you should look. FYI. Lambanog (talk) 19:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

you know WP:IAR is meant to be a joke dont you? Sophie ^(Talk) 19:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:IAR is anything but a joke, it is one of our most important policies, since it allows editors to use best judgment and common sense to improve Wikipedia. Have you read the policy Sophie? Ronk01 talk 20:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it is one of our most important policies. Unfortunately, the catchy name is now rather dated: "Ignore all rules" suggests ignoring rules for the sake of it, which is *not* what the policy says. Indeed, the first part of the policy ("If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia...") is much more important to the meaning of the policy than the conclusion "ignore it". Geometry guy 21:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The essence of IAR still lives on in smaller projects- I suppose enwiki is getting so big that IAR as it stands is either shot down, or that it is misused by people in such a way that warrants it being shot down. Only thing these smaller projects lack is the completely blank space to develop policies, as they are always a bit shadowed by this one. There's not a lot we can do but emphasise IAR. It's often downplayed because it appears to undermine the stacks of links that get cited in discussions or fed to newbies. If I may self-promote: WP:Ignoring IAR. It's a very bitsy essay I wrote in response to two particular new users on simple, and is thus in need of some work, but I think the sentiment stands. sonia♫ 09:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

im now confused, the page says "Ignore all rules" and your meant to follow the rules so does that mean the polcies are not actully relevent or something? Sophie ^(Talk) 13:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The page doesn't actually say "Ignore all rules" - that's just the (not particularly apt) title that seems to have stuck to it.--Kotniski (talk) 14:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It basically says 'use common sense.' Ronk01 talk 15:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Just for some context (not particularly to Jimbo, but to others reading along), Lambanogis invoking WP:IAR on a content debate on Talk:List of Philippine restaurant chains to ignore WP:V, WP:NOT, and attempts at consensus building. In other words, changing IAR from "Doing what is best for the encyclopedia" to "Whatever I think is best for the encyclopedia, so I can ignore the rules that don't match my interpretation, and anyone who disagrees with my interpretation is by definition not working in the encyclopedia's best interests." Qwyrxian (talk) 12:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Just for some further context. All those opposing openly acknowledge they know nothing about the subject. They cannot even provide a common sense rationale for their disagreement. But they obstruct anyway! Common characteristic? No article content contribution history of note from any of them. All policy wonks. Wikipedia is infested with them. WP:IAR I would have thought was established expressly to deal with such silliness but apparently it's never supposed to be applied besides making up 20% of the 5 pillars. I guess it's given undue weight? If the lot of them can make a convincing argument that they could collectively write a good article on the subject in my place I'll give some credence to their assertion that what they do benefits the encyclopedia. But since they cannot even reasonably claim that, no its quite plain all they are doing amounts to obstructionism. Lambanog (talk) 07:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

No, we just disagree about what a good (list) article is. So let's work together to decide a compromise/collaborative solution that everyone can be at least somewhat happy with. I really think there's a lot of room for compromise on that list, of which a number have already been listed. The idea that the expert (you) gets to just make all the arbitrary decisions, though, doesn't really seem like a good solution to me. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Please be a giant dick, so we can ban you

Several editors decided to nuke a page they disliked.

Can somebody explain to me the merit of allowing so-called "humor" pages like Wikipedia:Please be a giant dick, so we can ban you to exist in the Wikipedia:Namespace, and how doing so is consistent with Civility? Some anonymous IP editor who didn't like a Talk Page message I made, which at the time I thought was perfectly inoccuous, and responded with this message, in which he admonished me to see WP:PBAGDSWCBY for advice about what he called "veiled personal attacks". I explained what I meant by my prior message, insisted I meant nothing impolite about, and apologized if it conveyed incivilty, but I also stressed to him that his response was certainly incivil in itself, but I'm wondering why pages like this are allowed to remain on Wikipedia. It may disclaim itself as a "humor" page, rather than a policy or guideline page, but aside from the disclaimer, it certainly has the resemblance to a casual surfer to policy pages, and I don't understand why Wikipedia would even allow "humor" pages in its own namespace. Can anyone explain this one? Or did this page, which was created in April 2007 as a redirect to Wikipedia:Assume bad faith, and changed to an article in its own right the following month, just slip between some administrative cracks somewhere? Nightscream (talk) 22:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree you were not being uncivil (and not meaning to be a dick myself but there is no such word as incivil btw). However the merits of humor based essays can sometimes be hard to see, they are indeed helpful to some. In a Wikipedia that is becoming, unfortunately, more and more "do this or you your contributions suck and we'll mildly insult you" "dont do this or you get blocked as your first warning" humor is a good way to get a point across without being a dick (something those that work on policies should start doing a better job at). In this particular case many individuals might be doing, in good faith, things on the list at WP:PBAGDSWCBY and not realize it is being dickish and annoying to other editors, and that essay gives constructive examples of how to do certain things correctly. The essay has merits, just because it is humorous shouldnt be a problem.Camelbinky (talk) 23:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

For me, I don't particularly care for such essays, and never have. I think they are unproductive and snarky, and give the wrong (unprofessional) impression of what we expect of others. People who read such essays in an attempt to understand how to behave, may very well get exactly the wrong idea. I am not talking about just this essay, but all in this vein. At the same time, essays like WP:SPIDER give valid advice without the snark and "irony" of being rude to someone while telling them not to be rude.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think there is merit to some "humorous" essays, but this is not one of them. One problem is that it seems to be intended to make a serious point, but as Jimbo says, it is too "snarky." A related problem is that it violates the cardinal rule of humor: It is not funny. It should either be deleted or userfied (if that's the correct term.) I have it watchlisted, if an appropriate nomination tag appears on the page, I'll be there. (Aside to Jimbo: I agree about WP:SPIDER, but the problem I have with WP:SPIDER is that "cabal" template. I think it is the same kind of snarky, unfunny thing as the essay Nightscream writes about. I'd like to see that template deleted, or permitted only on essays in user space. They also could have done a much better job of photoshopping you into that photo, including choosing one where you are standing upright and not leaning on a bar or something.) Neutron (talk) 01:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

A lot of "essays" are frequently quoted as if they were "policy". Some examples are WP:ATA, WP:NAC, WP:DTTR, WP:GARAGE, WP:HAMMER and WP:COMPETENCE. That's why I sometimes call them "pseudo-policy". One thing that the "humor" tag does is make it clear that the essay you're reading should not in any way be interpreted as any kind of "directive" and shouldn't be quoted as if it were. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems fair to question why we keep an essay like the one above, when we have deletions like this one. The highly notable casualties of a major political movement are unwelcome, but we have space for this Encyclopædia Dramatica article? Wnt (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Different issues apply; however, I tend to agree with Jimbo, not because I usually do so, but because humour, especially oblique humour, can be misinterpreted according to local cultural values. It is perhaps better to avoid making too much out of what is essentially an opinion, or group of opinions, and I agree that essays are too often elevated and equated to policy and guidelines. The three should be clearly separable, stated as such, and not misrepresented, especially to inexperienced editors. Rodhullandemu 02:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo I have two questions-

• Would the essay in question be more palatable if it was without the snarky prose intro and instead incorporated in a different way the list of things that are border-line "dickish" and what the proper action without the "full dickish" action listed as well. I do think such a list, in proper context, could be useful and educational, I really think some editors do certain procedures in a way that can come off as annoying or rude without realizing and a list of this could be good to point them to procedures and processes that are more in line with making everyone else's life easier as well. Would you support a wholesale effort to change all "humor" essays into serious essays or would you rather see them deleted?
• Second- WP:BEANS is an essay (one I disagree with in regards to adults on Wikipedia, no one vandalizes because we say "dont vandalize") that doesnt really have humor but does give advice and it is one of the essays that are quoted around and used to justify changing policy (and recently wording at WP:5P). So my question is- do you think there should be a more rigorous vetting process for essays such as there are for guidelines and policies to make sure that essays are more helpful than hurtful since they are quoted around so freely.Camelbinky (talk) 02:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't really like the use of the term 'dickish' but sure, there is no question that the essay could be improved. I'm reluctant to suggest a more "rigorous vetting process for essays" just because it sounds like just one more thing to argue about. :) I'd rather see people working on unsourced BLPs and the like.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course WP:BEANS has humor. Interesting that you should bring it up, as it could be used to justify an MfD on WP:PBAGDSWCBY. I'd do it myself, except I don't treasure the thought of winding up as prime example #1 should the MfD fail. I agree with Neutron that some pages can be funny. WP:ABF is one that I enjoy, although I suspect it's a matter of personal opinion. Can WP:PBAGDSWCBY be saved? Maybe, but it would take a lot of work and the title is pretty hard to work with. I sure wouldn't take it on as I do have other things to do. —UncleDouggie (talk) 03:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with Neutron on not using the "cabal" template in the Wikipedia namespace. But if it is to be used, it should always be paired with a "humor" template, which WP:SPIDER does not have. —UncleDouggie (talk) 03:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason why this should not redirect to [3]? It doesn't add anything. Rodhullandemu 03:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec) More seriously for just a moment, the last time I checked there is a cult of the "giant dick"; once dicks achieve critical mass editors spontaneously break out into adulating phallicism while admins sweat in fear of impalement. WP:PHALLICISM, now there's an essay still waiting to be written. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 03:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I would not be upset at all if all of these humor essays just went away. But I can see how it might have merits, if nothing else just as an outlet to get the creative juices flowing, and a break from the mundane. Perhaps a sentence added to the bottom of the "humor essay" disclaimer at the top of the page that alerts editors to use extreme caution when linking to this essay in the course of a talk page discussion, as it may provide evidence of one's own incivility. The Eskimo (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how Wikipedia is the proper venue for getting the creative juices flowing or providing a break from the mundane. Contributors can go elsewhere for such things, especially in light of the aforementioned problems presented by such pages. Nightscream (talk) 04:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I like a bit of humour to keep spirits up - but this whole "dick" meme ought to be expunged from Wikipedia, Meta and elsewhere - it creates the impression in some minds (even experienced ones) that it's OK to call someone a dick or their behaviour dickish, which decidedly is not OK.--Kotniski (talk) 08:49, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Essays like "Don't be a dick" may have had their place when Wikipedia was a much smaller community, with the work of editing, administrating etc. all done by a fairly small number of people who all (or mostly) "knew" each other. I can see where a comment like "hey, don't be a dick", coming from someone you are used to working with and have some respect for, might have actually served a purpose, and the recipient of the chastisement would take it as it was intended. Now, with Wikipedia having grown so large, and with (in my opinion) a number of veteran editors and administrators behaving pretty badly sometimes themselves, it now just serves as an insult that will fan the flames of whatever dispute it is thrown into. Neutron (talk) 15:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Anyone willing to weather to unavoidable sh** storm if we start a deletion discussion on the article's talk page The Eskimo (talk) 21:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've decided to be a wet blanket and proposed the question of deletion on the essay's talk page. The Eskimo (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't care about any ****storm. Any decision like this should be predicated on calm, sound reasoning voiced by both sides for or against a given decision, as should each participating editor's responses during that discussion. Removing "essays" like this that one is the correct thing to do, so I don't mind participating there. But should there be a deletion discussion disclaimer at the top of that page? And for that matter, isn't there a section of Wikipedia specifically designated for Deletion Discussion? Nightscream (talk) 03:49, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Someone at WP:Civility suggested that I take this to WP:MFD. I tried going there, but the guidelines to follow under the "Before nominating a page for deletion" section seem impenetrable. I don't know which of those categories that page would fall into. Nightscream (talk) 09:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It's in the WP: space, so a nom for deletion can indeed be posted at WP:MFD. By the bye, guess I should say, I've never been too thrilled about this "d***" "meme" anywhere on WikiMedia. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree. In such cases I tend to assume that because I am not a native speaker I am not getting the nuances right, but the image on that page seems to be clear. To me the "dick" language looks as if it is part of a system of peculiar sexually charged male bonding rituals. I find that repellent, and I would not be surprised to learn that this is a factor in our low percentage of female editors. There are factors which we cannot and should not change, but this is not one of them. References to "dick" should be deprecated now, so that after a few years they can be sanctioned as incivility when used inappropriately. Hans Adler 11:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

See also Schmuck (pejorative), it's more or less the same thing. There are some words which aren't fit for luzzing about between strangers, much less between strangers who didn't grow up speaking the same language. I believe this is the kind of thinking from which Jimbo draws his comments now and then about "professionalism" on WP. I don't put it the way he does, but I broadly agree with the notion. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Not really. A schmuck can be a hapless, clueless, clownish person. A dick is somebody who's annoying because they are full of themselves. Before going after WP:GIANTDICK, it may make sense to take care of WP:DICK first. WP:DICK is often used in earnest, whereas WP:GIANTDICK is obviously satirical, like wp:delicious. I am not sure it is wise to delete these essays: Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon. - Wikipedia Jehochman ^Talk 12:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The Jewish folks I've known in, say, LA, have always used the word schmuck spot on like American WASPs I've met use the word dick. These almost always have been men/boys, by the way (both "groups"). My own take is, the only reason some Anglo-Saxons take the word schmuck as more benign (or whatever) is, they aren't aware of the Yiddish meaning (or are only dimly aware of it). I've also heard born-English speaking Jewish men use the word schmuck as a straightforward synonym for the male anatomy, as likewise I've heard the word dick. Only sayin'. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

In any case this is the kind of word that can be exchanged between consenting individuals but should not be encouraged as general terminology. And no doubt the existence of these pages does encourage use. There are currently about 300 pages linking to WP:Don't be a dick. I am actually surprised it isn't more, but maybe the overuse is a recent phenomenon? Hans Adler 16:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I've seen it flash by here and there (too often for me) for all the years I've been editing here. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

WARNING: Personal opinion to follow: For truly appalling bad taste in so-called humorous essays, can there be anything worse than Wikipedia is the Holocaust? Bielle (talk) 17:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's a jaw-dropper. How odd to be totally in agreement with the sentiment, yet appalled beyond measure at the choice of metaphor. Karenjc 22:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• Well Jimbo, I got royally rogered when I nominated one of such pages for deletion :-) >> Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Don't-give-a-fuckism (3rd nomination) Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 18:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that's very different. When people say "don't give a fuck" there isn't much of the original imagery left. You would never think of illustrating this phrase. Whereas we do have illustrations for "don't be a dick", and (at least to me) there is a cognitive dissonance when the phrase is applied to women. Also, WP:Don't-give-a-fuckism is a much more positive page and much less prone to abuse (in fact, rather hard to abuse) in disputes.

I see the point of WP:Wikipedia is the Holocaust but think that one is in sufficiently bad taste that it should be removed or replaced by something with less power to offend. On the other hand it's not clear how this kind of page could work with any comparison that doesn't involve a large amount of relatively recent suffering. Hans Adler 19:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion as it does us no credit whatsoever and IMO is utterly misguided. Rodhullandemu 22:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Would it be possible to prevent archiving of discussions before they reach their naturalistic conclusion?

Rodhull, could you nominate the Don't Be a Dick Page for deletion? I'm don't understand the nuances of the procedure indicated on the AfD page. Nightscream (talk) 07:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, this is back on this page? In case anyone isn't aware, the "Please be a..." page is currently at Mfd, here, in fact the discussion is several days old and is almost over. At this point there is a strong majority to "keep," and based on the discussion there, I doubt that a deletion debate for WP:DICK would fare any better. (I guess that one would be a "redirect for discussion" (or whatever) because the actual essay is on Meta, with a redirect on en.wikipedia.) Neutron (talk) 14:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I wonder where the nudge, nudge crowd came from. The constituency at that AfD doesn't look like the normal more or less random selection to me. Did someone notify WikiProject

Immature Humor? Hans Adler 23:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Great. I wasn't even aware that there was a discussion until just now, when it ended with a keep decision. This is wrong on so many levels. Nightscream (talk) 06:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

I think the main issue as to why these pages often get kept is because there's essentially no criteria to hold them against. I had previously nominated Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not/Outtakes for deletion as a smattering of irrelevant and unfunny crap, but that discussion got snowed out. Though I can fully understand a WP:CREEP concern, the fact is that there exist a lot of 'humor pages' on Wikipedia that are decidedly not a benefit to the project. elektrikSHOOS 19:50, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If anything, there only appears to be criteria to keep them. On all of the above humor-related deletion discussions above, I saw WP:NOTCENSORED being cited over and over as a reason the pages should not be deleted. (Whether that actually should apply the same way to non-articlespace is obviously up for debate, but nonetheless.) None of the 'delete' comments were able to cite a policy, and it's because none exists that can apply in this circumstance. elektrikSHOOS 19:56, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

As someone who has supported deletion of the page in question (apparently to no avail), I think you are essentially correct. We do not have a policy that says that we should not have unfunny "humor" pages, which are essentially "inside" jokes among (mostly) administrators, and which are (in the words of the person whose talk page this is) "unproductive and snarky, and give the wrong (unprofessional) impression of what we expect of others." To the contrary, if one accepts the belief that Wikipedia policies are "descriptive, not prescriptive", the fact that the MfD for the essay in question ends in a "keep", as it probably will, may mean that our "policy" permits, or even encourages, essays like this one. That would be unfortunate, but it is one of the side-effects of the "Wiki way" of doing things. Neutron (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I just want to be clear as to what some people are proposing- clear-cut "rules" on when and how a "humor essay" should be kept. Correct? Because I would hate to see a push for the deletion of ALL essays that have humor and restrict essays to being humorless informative pages. Humor is good, and a little ribbing and funny sillyness can be a good release from all these serious and heated debates and drama-filled noticeboards.Camelbinky (talk) 20:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Humour is necessary and beneficial. And in my opinion there is nothing wrong with the particular kind of humour expressed by that page – so long as it stays strictly personal and doesn't pass into collective ownership. If people think what they say is funnier when they use that kind of language, let them do it so long as they are not actively offending someone (i.e. continue talking to someone about dicks when they said they feel offended by that). It's exactly the same as how most responsible companies deal with potentially offensive language at the workplace: It's OK so long as people don't overdo it and so long as people stop when someone is offended. But such language doesn't belong in project space essays any more than in corporate memos. Such an essay reflects badly on its owner, i.e. in this case the community. In user space I would have no problem with that so long as it's not my user space. Hans Adler 21:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of criteria to delete that page. Humor is not 'necessary, as this is an encyclopedia, not a humor website. Pages like that have no business in the Wikipedia namespace. Nightscream (talk) 06:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Humor is a necessary management tool when herding cats. WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but that sentiment did not carry the day. WP:CONSENSUS and all that jazz. Tarc (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Tarc, can you clarify your statement regarding"consensus" you speak- I think I am unaware if you are speaking to WAS who commented 5 minutes before you or if you were speaking to the person before him.

It seems humor is an important aspect of our collective personality and Wikipedia-way. Just because a few fuddy-duddies exist doesnt mean we can't have some humor and not take everything so seriously. We dont get paid, with very few exceptions none of us are going to get a job based on "Created X number of featured articles on Wikipedia" being on a resume, and this is a hobby. Yea, we are creating an encyclopedia and that sounds, and is, a very serious goal, but if you manage an office or even just a fast food place with no "fun activities" or company parties, get-togethers, picnics, "corporate retreats", etc, then you are going to have a terrible work environment with high turn-over and low productivity. Despite the news regarding sexual harrassment to the contrary work environments tend to be quite jovial and alot that is technically by law and/or corporate rules harrassment and a "no joking about x" policy it still happens. And if Wikipedia attempts a "no humor" injunction on all of us you will see- lower productivity, higher turnover, and flagrant disregard of the "law" by putting this stuff in user space and there will be a big backlash. If you dont like a certain type of humor- ignore it. I do that with Dane Cook's humor all the time, and yet he still exists and annoys me, but sometimes you just have to accept that great numbers, for whatever reason, enjoy it.Camelbinky (talk) 22:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

By the indenting, it should be clear that I was addressing Nightscream. :) Tarc (talk) 22:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the reasons http://tvtropes.org/ _{(warning:addictive!)} is so addictive is because they actually still allow humor there, just like wikipedia used to.

Based on that, it might be interesting to consider what would happen if we actually made humor mandatory; at the least on talk pages.

Of course, if we make it mandatory on article pages, we would start to outperform The Guide, and we may need to worry about extraterrestrial repercussions. ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 10:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Don't Panic

(Also see: http://www.xkcd.com/609/ ... you have been warned! ) --Kim Bruning (talk) 10:39, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

IRC

Jimbo, could you come on IRC sometime soon? We need to talk about something that requires a certain degree of privacy. Thanks. DS (talk) 22:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

#wikipedia-en-admins ^connect, if possible. Killiondude (talk) 22:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's probably a bit tough to synchronize on time if it is urgent. Email is likely best. However, I'm coming on IRC right now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually there seems to be a firewall blocking me from here. (Frankfurt airport). I'll keep trying, but email is probably best.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm in!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Sent you an email

hope you got it :)

Sophie ^(Talk) 21:02, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikia

Hi! I blanked the discussion here because Wikia is my "day job" and wikipedia is my hobby and charity work... Please talk to me about Wikia by email at jwales@Wikia.com or on any talk page there... I will respond there. (But not until tomorrow, as I am traveling today.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:03, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Editing

Is there a way I can convert my edits from my IP, 173.49.140.141 to my account, Perseus, Son of Zeus? 173.49.140.141 (talk) 15:19, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

That would give me a total of 324 edits. 173.49.140.141 (talk) 15:58, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) You're better off asking that sort of question at WP:VPT, but I'm almost certain the answer is no. —  Tivedshambo  (t/c) 16:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

No, at least not on Wikipedia. And anyway, this is more situable for the help desk or VPT than the founder's talk page. —  Waterfox  21:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You can normally change your name, but since you don't have a name on the original account, just an IP address, I don't think that'd work. Dream Focus 22:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

It used to be possible, but it isn't done anymore. Graham87 03:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

No right of reply?

[I am open to people "contributing" their own story about me. I did things in the past that are well documented in tv documentaries, numerous media reports and a number of online submissions. But some of the information being added is very selective and is false. Sources that are being cited are not credible but accepted by Wikipedia due to simply having a web address. I have offered to those that are editing this page to be open to an interview by them on the subject matter. Still awaiting their reply. Chris Porter]

This makes me sad Christopher Porter. He's effectively saying "hey, you are writing about me, well I'd like to set the record straight". Not unreasonable, but it will almost certainly end badly. We research articles on people, but we don't take evidence from the subject, we don't interview them, not even if they offer, (that's OR) and we don't give a right of reply (a reasonable journalist would say "do you want to comment on this?" before running a story.) Maybe he'll be able to point us to third party sources that record his point of view, but unless he can we don't really have any way of helping him. It's just sad - a saw him trying to put his view into the article and I feel just helpless - another BLP train-wreck about to happen. Sigh.--Scott Mac 15:18, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The pointing in the direction of solid independent reliable sources woul be a big step in the right direction. Like many things in life, it is also contingent on the ability of involved parties to negotiate with others whose opinions and goals differ and may be at odds with their own. A ubiquitous problem really, by no means restricted to BLPs. Interesting to see how it turns out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:25, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

One problem is he's not a regular wikipedian, so he don't know how to interact. I tried to communicate through his account User talk:NoteMyVote, but he may or may not have seen the message as he's generally not logging in. We'll only be able to work with him if he learn our rules (and why should he?).--Scott Mac 15:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

No he doesn't need to learn the rules if he lets us know what he feels to be broad introductory sources and other editors get on with it. If he wants to edit actively that is a different story but if the discussion is open should be okay, especially if a few more of the diplomatic editors keep an eye out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:42, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Casliber and others for jumping in to help here, and I echo Scott Mac's concerns.

In the course of my usual BLP work, as well as upon meeting lots of people who have Wikipedia entries that they are unhappy about, it has come up many times that the subject is very likely the unintentional victim of bad/incomplete reporting, and doesn't really have a platform to correct the record in any useful way.

I think we often have an excessive concern that BLP subjects are interested in a "whitewash". This has not generally been my experience, even with controversial figures. What people seem more interested in, rather, is accuracy and truth - even in cases where the media has not embraced those values. This can be tricky. I have given this a lot of thought, but do not yet have a great answer to what can be done when reliable sources say one thing, and the BLP subject says another thing, particularly when the facts in question are not particularly exciting or controversial.

There are also sometimes problems of cherry-picking of sources in order to prove a point. I have personally said to the press hundreds of times over the years that I was always very optimistic at the founding of Wikipedia, citing the anecdote that I had looked at a list of the top 100 websites on the net and seen an encyclopedia site at around #50, and thinking that if we did our job well, we could be in the top 100 or even top 50. Dozens of publications have commented on my self-described "pathological optimism". Nevertheless, citing a single source (which was, as is well known at least partly debunked, the infamous "Essjay" piece which took him at his word) we claim "Neither Sanger nor Wales expected very much from the Wikipedia initiative." (Perhaps someone thought it might make this thin referencing better to cite the same article twice for the same false claim.)

In cases like this latter case, there is a serious need for NPOV editorial judgment. Someone has to do the difficult job of weighing up the sources and realizing that, on balance, a particular source (even if from a generally well-regarded publication) which is an outlier in some respects must be ignored or anyway dealt with as problematic. If we get it wrong even when I have said the same thing hundreds of times to dozens or hundreds of publications, imagine how much harder it is for people who are not interviewed very often, whose only press is 5-10 articles across a span of a dozen years.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

• There is also, in my experience of over-viewing BLPs, that "a serious need for NPOV editorial judgment" is not being enforced as much as it should be. I see unsourced and poorly-sourced nonsense being added on a daily basis, largely because some of our editors do not understand the difference between "encyclopedia", "fansite" and "tabloid blog". It's an uphill struggle fighting this kind of input, and as a result, I feel I have to watchlist articles concerning topics in which I have zero interest, if only to keep those articles within policy. To be honest, I am not a junior school teacher, and don't see why my analytical expertise should be wasted on dealing with such issues. I should have better things to be doing here. Rodhullandemu 00:09, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. I am hopeful that Pending Changes, applied liberally to biographies which have had any problems at all, will be majorly helpful. But I also think that the ongoing tightening of BLP policy is something that should be accelerated.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:14, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes may solve the problem of readers seeing the unsourced, speculative info, but it doesn't solve Rodhullandemu's problem of having to patrol the edits--someone still has to eventually go in, revert the pending change, and explain why (and then explain why on the article/user talk page, if the problem persists). I'm not saying that PC is bad, just that it doesn't solve the inevitable problems that occur from our being a fundamentally different type of interactive site than nearly everything else on the internet. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:46, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, in cases where there is POV pushing, as opposed to random vandalism, there should be a very strong change in behavior of the would-be POV pushers in light of knowing that their edits won't be seen by the public. The more we take away the rewards for bad editing, the less bad editing we will see (on average). There is no perfect security, but there should be things we can do which alter the cost/benefit ratio in useful ways. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Alas, in political silly season, "experienced editors" who would be unaffected by pending changes are among the offenders. Collect (talk) 11:46, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, not everything is helped by Pending Changes. :) There are no magic bullets.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I was just recommended to this discussion. I started one regarding BLP at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), under the heading "6 To propose Autobiographical as a sub-category" Here's the link:- [4]. You'll notice I didn't get very far, and now I'm exhausted. I shall follow this discussion here, with a great deal of interest. Please read what I had to say, because that's my contribution. JohnClarknew (talk) 22:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion/idea

Jimbo sayeth, What people seem more interested in, rather, is accuracy and truth - 'even in cases where the media has not embraced those values'. This can be tricky. I have given this a lot of thought, but do not yet have a great answer to what can be done when reliable sources say one thing,

What if the subject of the BLP uploaded documentation/evidence/information from their own personal archives to Wikisource. I'm talking about transcripts or other forms of primary sources. Or maybe just their side of the story.--*Kat* ^(meow?) 01:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's helpful in many cases. OTRS is the current best solution, which has the advantage of respecting privacy. I'm pretty sure asking people whose birthdate is in some regard confusing to upload their birth certificate is not a very user-friendly or privacy-respecting solution.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Birth certificates aren't the only things with the DOB on them. But I get your point. --*Kat* ^(meow?) 04:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

And, to be fair, I get yours as well. More user-friendly ways for people who aren't Wikipedia editors to point us towards useful sources and evidence would be a net good thing, without a doubt.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

We wrote into the sourcing policy here several years ago that self-published websites maintained by the subjects of articles are allowed as reliable sources in those articles, so long as they're not unduly self-serving, there's no doubt about the authorship, and the article isn't based on that source. We did that so that subjects had a way they could correct errors that the secondary sources (e.g. newspapers) had made about them. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:24, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and that helps in many (but sadly not all) cases. In some cases, subjects quite rightly fear that bringing up some unpleasant thing or other on their personal website will lead to renewed media interest. And when there is POV-pushing involved, it's just never going to be that simple. Let's go back to the original example that started this thread: he used to be a dolphin trader, and now he's had "a change of heart" and his concern is that sources are being cherry picked and misrepresented, and he'd like to put his side of the story on the record. We do have ways of helping him, of course, and one of them is that he could start a blog, prove that it is his, and write his side of the story. I just wish that process could be easier, and I wish that he could have better ways of offering assistance to us that don't put him at risk of some bad press coverage claiming that he's "lashing out at volunteer driven Wikipedia" or whatever.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:38, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

A suggestion someone made a couple of years ago was that each BLP would have a little drop-down section, a pop-up window or similar, where the subject would have the right of reply. A limited number of words, not a long thing, and something only the subject would have access to. It would take a lot of working out in terms of what the rules would be, how we'd be sure we were dealing with the subject, and so on, but I always thought it was an idea that had potential. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you completely. :) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

That would also have the advantage that with reasonable subjects, we might strive to get the article to such neutrality that a subject might be able to endorse it as "fair and reasonable". I just keep coming back to the fact that good journalists don't publish material on people without contacting them and inviting (at very least) their comment. I suppose the problem would be do we allow them 10 words, or 500 to put a complex counter-case? And what do we do if their response is profanities, or a libellous attack on a third-party? Do we censor? I'd certainly like us to make effort to contact subjects and print any response on the talk page for editors to consider. Although my settled view is that the only fix here is to lift our notability bar for BLPs by a mile: have fewer, on people with more solid sources, where enough editors will be interested in contributing to them, that we can actually maintain them properly. But like that's gonna happen?--Scott Mac 09:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

How many "good journalists" are left? Have you read some of the material about "opposition politicians" written in some sources? We need a lot more than raising notability standards (most marginal BLPs are not "hit pieces" to be sure) but much stronger rules concerning defamatory opinion being placed as "fact" in all BLPs. Collect (talk) 11:46, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

"rules" are not the problem, we have absolute rules on not placing opinion, or defamation, or interpretation, or unsound fact on ANY article, nevermind a BLP. The problem is that our policies focus on ideals and aspiration, and not on what is maintainable. What we need to establish is realistic quality control, and a related risk-assessment to our notability threshholds, and the degree of the openness of our editing. That's simply not a question that most of Wikipedia is willing to ask. There is too much eventualist optimism. People say "contentious stuff can be removed", well, yes it can be, but the problem isn't removal (which the BLP policy gives us the tools to do) the problem is identifying the less-obvious bad stuff in the first place. Until we adjust policy to reflect the real problem, nothing will change.--Scott Mac 12:04, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfotunately, that'd take about another 10 years or so I reckon, before the 'pedia is in enough of a 'maintenance' phase to be able to do this. Problem is, this (in how it is being done currently) broadly appears to be the only way to get from A to B. All other attempts thus far with expert editors or other procesing of content have failed. These issues with BLP can be broadly applied to many other articles - any article which discusses medical, nutritional or economic issues could be placed in the same basket. The numbers of articles with real-life impact are extremely broad, and slashing content will be catastrophic. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:25, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

That is unfortunately the type of response that's at the root of the problem. A risk assessment that essentially says "the cost to the project is too high" and thus lets third parties pay it instead. Another way of looking at it is to say that the level of collateral damage to innocent parties is too high - so we need to take some pain to reduce it. Frankly, if we can't reduce the risks to third-parties to a responsible level, then it is irresponsible to host any BLPs at all. I don't think we need to go anything like as far as that, but we no need to stop the ostrich approach. The argument that we shouldn't treat BLPs as special cases, because the problems are in all articles is spurious. Ten minutes on OTRS will show that BLPs are disproportionately the cause of legitimate subject complaint - so let's start there. There are a wide range of measures we could take that would reduce the risks to BLP subjects without trashing the project - none of them as cost-free, granted. But if we start by saying we need to be willing to sacrifice some of our ideals here (at least at the margins) we may get somewhere. The perfect should not be the enemy of the good.--Scott Mac 13:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying there is no problem - my idea (semi'ing the lot of them) is still more workable (I think) and less labour intensive than flagged revisions (though it is not a 'shiny new toy') - it means the onus is on the adder to explain how their information is good rather than the flagged revision reviewer sifting through the added info afterwards. You Scott have mentioned quitting WP several times, so I feel I need to be convinced that the creation of an encyclopedia is actually a goal of yours, and hence trying to marry the two is an aim, rather than just solely BLP protection. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:18, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

My aims are beside the point - my arguments ought to stand or fall on their own merits. I've never seen FR as worth much - precisely because of the problem of the reviewer. If you deploy flagged widely (even on all BLPs) you'll end up with a low quality of review and reviewer. Such a net may catch obvious crap, but will do little to catch the plausible untruth - which is rarer, but most damaging to subjects. Semi'ing the lot is worth considering - although the determined libeller or POV pusher will only be delayed a bit. It is also quite a high price for the project to pay (no newbie gets to edit any BLP) for a questionable return. Worth exploring certainly. I'd also like us to explore a) targeted flagging and b) reviewing the lower notability threshold for BLPs. If the danger of harm is disproportionately on BLPs, it is more so on less notable subjects, who don't have other bios online to offset ours, and have far less knowledgeable eyes on then spotting crap. We are always more likely to hurt John Seigenthaler than Sarah Palin. Since there is project cost to whatever we do, pay the price where it does most good for limiting harm to real subjects. We need to get smart, not use scatter-guns.--Scott Mac 00:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to ask the both of you to step back and reconsider each other in a spirit of AGF. It makes me sad to see two people, both generally on the right side of the issue, having a disagreement this ugly. I think Scott's commitment to building the encyclopedia is really beyond question - his occasional discussions about quitting have to do with exhaustion and a feeling of lack of support on these key issues (the issues where the two of you generally agree). And Scott, I think Casliber's being on the right side of the issue generally means that it's just not really nice to pick on his response as "the root of the problem". (I think I understood what you meant: when good people don't take the hardline stance, it emboldens the worst elements - a debatable proposition that might or might not be true, but I think Casliber felt attacked, which I am sure you didn't mean to do.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:22, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Umm...? Ugly? Nah Jimbo, just a couple of editors from cultures renowned for bluntness sounding off a bit (chuckle). Scott, none of us are impartial no matter how hard we try. We all have ideals which we have to balance with the reality of what is in front of us. Understanding each is helpful in talk with others whose priorities might be different. I think giving some other methods a real workout such as targeted flagging, or maybe autosemiprotection of any BLP with less than 100 watchers or something (some other criterion so the big, easy-to-edit ones are open for IPs and beginners) is preferred. I think any real push on raising notability is going to end in a no-definite-consensus-clusterfuck-quagmire unless there is some heavy handedness from above. I'll take another look at the targetted flagging as a first off. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Turns out we're not so far off the same page. Casliber and I have sparred often enough to agree that getting it right is more important than two curmudgeons cuddling.--Scott Mac 08:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, read that page. Question is, where is the place to take discussion on criteria for low-notability BLPs (e.g. less than 50 watchers? less than 10 internal links? other criteria??) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Overall, I dislike the idea of a 'right of reply', and I believe it will generally be misunderstood by readers and the repository of unverifiable, self-serving claims by subjects (e.g., "I didn't do it", by a majority of convicted criminals). I prefer the current system, in which a person subjected to an article is welcome to set up a completely separate website, which we'll link. That avoids all the complications of word limits, updates as the article evolves, etc.

As for the (IMO serious) problem of unbalanced articles, one approach is simply to raise the standards for inclusion. It's hard to make a credible claim for bias if a dozen independent sources report the same things, over a period of at least several years, involving multiple events. Conversely, it's almost impossible to avoid bias if you're trying to build an article on a few sentences in two media reports that are mostly about something else, and all involve events happening over the space of a day or two. The equation that 2RS=N is not appropriate for BLPs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:46, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

With years of experience dealing with BLPs, I can say that it is pretty rare to have convicted criminals who want the articles changed to reflect "I didn't do it". I mean, it is a valid concern in some very rare cases, but we should focus more on the mainstream routine problems that we can solve, which is exactly what you suggest in the second half of your comment.

Let me give an example where current standards of inclusion (or anyway, the standards of 2 years ago) are probably wrong: Wikipedia:BLPN#Joshua_Gardner. It's been through 3 AfD's, but it's really really hard to see why it survived even one AfD. It's a clear case of a very low notability person being included because of some very tangential relationship to Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

See above and BLPN. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong for an electronic encyclopedia in reporting something that has ten reliable sources. BLP1E should never be ground for deletion -reading the policy, it is grounds for renaming/refocusing the article from the person to the event. --Cyclopia^talk 11:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps a larger variety of examples would help: "I didn't inhale." "I did not have sex with that woman." "The divorce is all his fault." "I have never intentionally used steroids." "I am not a crook." "This article reflects the bias of the mainstream media against <fill in minority group>."

We don't have this problem on a significant scale right now, because it's apparent to most people that the community isn't going to go along with unverifiable POVs. But if we create a right of reply, then I believe that this is the type of unencyclopedic material we can reasonably expect to get in a too-large fraction of articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

In reply to *Kat*, Wikisource does not usually accept self-published documents, and is extremely wary of documents about living people. See s:WS:WWI for the long version, but note that it doesn't go into a lot of specifics. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes - where are we on this anyway now??

Alright, pursuant to me looking at Scott's targeted revisions, I nosed around trying to figure out where we are at with Pending Changes trial and I got lost...so where is the current discussion anyway?? (I figure someone will point me in the right direction...ahoy TPS) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Meetup Miami

I'm planning to form a wikimeetup at my university or close by. But I don't want to form a date until if you could confirm if you want to go or not. I want the wikimeetup to attract as many people as possible including many new contributers. Let me know of a date and I'll work the venue situation. Maybe I could have it on campus, on one of the auditoriums. Thanks Secret ^account 16:49, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Best if we move this to email, because there will probably have to be some back and forth about the date. Miami might seem convenient to me, but it is a 4 hour drive or a flight from my part of Florida, so this is to some extent just like a request that I come to a meetup in England or India. I will come, but it might be nontrivial to find a date that works.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:52, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Alright will email you. Secret ^account 17:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Just did Secret ^account 20:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Climate change ArbCom mass banning (ArbCom's Hammer)

Jimbo, I'd like to say that I was appalled when I looked closer at the recent ArbCom ruling that appeared to arbitrarily ban about 15 or so editors for six months for their involvement in trying to oust some of the worst abusers of Wikipedia (i.e. William M. Connolley & Kim D. Petersen). In the list of banned editors was Cla68! I couldn't believe my eyes. I've interacted a great deal with Cla68 and he is -- or rather was -- nothing short of a near perfect editor. In all the time I interacted he was a model of restraint and fairness. I have no recollection of him ever putting a single word out of place. How can he be dished out exactly the same punishment as William M. Connolley, one of the most famously & consistently abusive editors ever encountered? To be blunt, the only conclusion is as ATren and others have concluded, viz. that corruption in Wikipedia goes all the way to the top. I can only guess that ArbCom was either simply too lazy to look at the case in any detail. Meanwhile, I've quickly found that of the many remaining Climate Change editors, the same hostility and disregard for process remains. I returned to briefly to see if anything has changed, but quickly I've found that it hasn't. Wikipedia needs to reform or die. See also: [5]. Alex Harvey (talk) 13:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

As hard of time as I've given Jimbo over the years, Alex, I'm not sure if he'll agree with you that I'm a "near perfect editor," but I appreciate the kind words. Cla68 (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Out of interest, since it isn't clear from your response, did you actually read the evidence against Cla68, in particular the diffs? This would seem to be a key thing since your positive experience doesn't disprove he/she hasn't had problems particularly since if I understand your response correctly and a check of your contribs also suggests you've been largely away from wikipedia for a longish while. I myself haven't so I'm not going to conclude the arbcom must be wrong (or right) without looking at the evidence (although as I've remarked before I suspect they haven't done a bad job and I would definitely trust their judgement more then I would people on either 'side' both of which complained a lot). Nil Einne (talk) 02:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Linking to a blog which links to and appears to trust Encyclopaedia Dramatica, and genuinely thinks TS and StS may be sockpuppets of WMC doesn't seem to give my credence to your argument. Nil Einne (talk) 02:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Alex, there are many criticisms that can be directed towards ArbCom, but I think "too lazy to look at the case in any detail" is pretty far off the mark. From watching the case, it is evident that the Committee spent an enormous amount of time on it. They were distracted several times by the need to take account of new battles that broke out, in article space, on the case pages, and across several Arbitrators' talk pages. I have no doubt that there was considerable email activity, both in the form of lobbying from both sides and off-wiki communication between the Arbitrators. Several different potential approaches were evident on the Proposed Decision page. ArbCom was anything but lazy.

I think there is also a common misunderstanding that the decision has treated all the banned editors equally; I believe this is incorrect. Although all are banned under the same remedy, the ban is actually indefinite and the terms only specify the timetable for making appeals for the ban to be lifted. I am certain such appeals will be treated on a case-by-case basis, with post-case behaviour receiving careful scrutiny. I suspect that some editors will probably be expected to show considerably more reform before an appeal will be successful, and ArbCom itself has chosen to narrow bans rather than lift them entirely numerous times in the past. The banned editors themselves have considerable influence on how appeals will be judged by ArbCom, and over how long their "six month" topic bans actually last.

Jimbo has access to the ArbCom email list and so has more insight than we do into how ArbCom came to this decision. I suspect if ArbCom were going in a direction he found seriously concerning that he would have spoken to them privately and directly, rather than waiting for the decision to be finalised and then step in to change it, which would invite a firestorm of criticism. Jimbo stepping in to unilaterally change the ArbCom decision would be a strategic nuclear weapon to ArbCom's tactical nuclear bans. ArbCom has sent a clear signal that they want enforcement to end the warfare and to return the area to wiki-norms, and that they will support broad bans to achieve that goal. It is a blunt instrument to try to deal with this area, but having watched the case-page behaviour, I would struggle to argue that crafting something with more finesse was practicable in this case. There are certainly areas where the decision can be criticised, and it definitely offers some lessons in case management, but the general thrust is both considered and defensible. Hopefully some of the more valuable editors amongst the banned will demonstrate again their value to wikipedia and so receive more favourable treatment when it comes to appeals. EdChem (talk) 02:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

On the topic of bans, ArbCom seems to be using a sword when a scalpel might be a better tool, that is, specific, but tougher bans for users who were truly disruptive. As an example, Connolley could get an indefinite total ban with an appeal allowed at one year, since the evidence against him was particularly damning. Just an idea. Ronk01 talk 03:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

(my 2c) As long as ArbCom and the rest of us continue in the fantasy that the only problem with the wiki system in controversial areas is the behaviour of an eliminable number of individual editors, and that obvious problems of disruption need to be solved over months rather than hours, and that the content of Wikipedia doesn't matter as long as we have the appearance of internal peace, then there is no chance that any of these matters will ever be solved satisfactorily.--Kotniski (talk) 08:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you mean that Wikipedia has too many elements of a social media site and not enough of a serious, governable attempt at building an encyclopedia, that is a big picture problem that probably needs a lot more help to fix than just Jimbo's. Cla68 (talk) 11:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep, that's probably more or less what I mean (and I certainly don't expect Jimbo or anyone else to be able to wave a magic wand and fix it).--Kotniski (talk) 12:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Jimbo Wales. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mjroots (talk) 09:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

First edit to Wikipedia

Who made the first edit to Wikipedia? Wayne Olajuwon chat 00:04, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Me. I installed Usemod Wiki, and then typed "Hello, World!" on the front page and hit save. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The traditional "Hello World." Classic.--TalkToMe_c^intelati 01:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Gotta love Hello World, although I am sick of it in Web Design by now.--iGeMiNix 02:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

What about the second edit? The Thing // Talk // Contribs 02:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

No one knows, but knowing me, it was probably me fixing a typo from "Hello, Wolrd!" :-) Seriously though, the early history was lost years ago, which is unfortunate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Aw, the first 10 edits should have been keep in history so we can reflect back to what it was then and what it is now.--iGeMiNix 02:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

It makes sense the early history isn't here. According to Special:Contributions/Jimbo Wales, this was Jimbo's first edit. ~NerdyScienceDude 02:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope, Jimbo's first recorded edits using an account are at Special:Contributions/JimboWales, the CamelCased version of his current username. To answer the original question, see Wikipedia:Wikipedia's oldest articles. Graham87 03:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm slightly relieved to see that my first recorded edits were simply un-camel-casing popular articles. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, I've just incorporated some text from your recent reply into the page Wikipedia:Wikipedia's oldest articles. Naturally feel free to edit the page if you feel that something's missing or needs to be corrected. Graham87 04:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The same thing was already discussed in December 2008. However, is it correct that this account was created on March 27, 2001? Also, has your account ever been named "Jimmy Wales" or something different? HeyMid (contributions) 14:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the creation dates given by Special:Listusers for accounts made before the new user log was introduced in September 2005 are based on the date of the first recorded edit. Graham87 15:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to think that database entry is wrong, though. I used to use the "JimboWales" account, linked above. It appears to have been created 23 January 2001 and I'm much less confident that that is correct. At the same time, as I remember it, though, when I launched Wikipedia using UseMod wiki, it didn't even really have the concept of an account. You could log in with a password, but it didn't actually mean anything. Anyone else could log in using the same name and a different password. (Talk about trust!) :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you absolutely sure that's correct? For me, it says Jimbo Wales was created at 20:47 UTC time, but the contribs log reveals that the account made an edit at 18:11 the same day. HeyMid (contributions) 15:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, well, you have a good point and so now I will say there is a good reason to think that the database entry is wrong. However, it does seem likely-ish that was the date when I switched from JimboWales to Jimbo Wales. I always hated camel case.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:54, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The discrepancy between the two dates exists because I imported some of your earliest edits from the Nostalgia Wikipedia, a copy of the Wikipedia database from 20 December 2001. The creation date feature of the users list was added in January 2009 while the import feature became available to admins in December 2009. Graham87 02:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, have you ever thought of writing a book either regarding the founding of Wikipedia or just a general autobiography; or giving someone the authority to do an official biography and interview you extensively? I think this thread shows there are those of us that are interested in Wikipedia early history. And who knows it might be exciting enough to make a movie based on your book, given the acclaim surrounding the Social Network movie about Facebook's founder (which I have read does not portray its Founder accurately).Camelbinky (talk) 16:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I am hoping to take some time off next year to write; we shall see if I succeed!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Who was the first/second person to register on Wikipedia? 173.49.140.141 (talk) 12:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

That question is difficult to answer with the surviving data, which is very sketchy. I'd assume it was Jimbo from the messages above, but note his message about how UseModWiki didn't use accounts as we know them today. The oldest surviving edit to a user page is this edit to User:ScottMoonen. Many people from the earliest days of Wikipedia came here from Nupedia. Graham87 13:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I wonder: were there any instances of people stealing accounts in the UseModWiki era? It seemed like a relatively easy thing to do. Graham87 13:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, this page seems interesting: Wikipedia:Phase II feature requests/Cookies, logins, and privacy. BTW, the reason for its name is that UseModWiki was known as Phase I , the second wiki engine was the Phase II software, and MediaWiki was originally known sinmply as "Phase III". See MediaWiki history. Graham87 14:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I wonder...I found something called Nostalgia Wikipedia... 173.49.140.141 (talk) 14:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'm interested in the history of Wikipedia policies and how they were developed. I did a little research about the IAR rule, and what I've discovered is that it had a different meaning then. It was the last of list of rules, basically to say: if you are new and the above mentioned rules confuse you, just ignore them. It is now interpreted differently IMO, which is not necessary a bad thing. Sole Soul (talk) 19:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Keith jardine

My name is Keith Jardine from Alaska.I've been mentioned in your articals by mistake.In Albuq..... now visiting parents...would like to meet you or talk to you and draw your photo...to Keith Jardine from Keith Jardine....<redacted>.....my phone# is available —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith jardine (talk • contribs) 20:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I've removed your email for privacy purposes; which article are you meaning, please, and I'll take a look at it? Rodhullandemu 21:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Direct contact?

Hi there, is there a way to contact you directly? I have concerns regarding receiving abuse from administrators, and related issues. Many thanks in advance. 82.152.216.15 (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

On the left of this page, click on E - mail this user. Off2riorob (talk) 18:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your response on behalf of Jimbo Wales, but I have to say that the "e-mail this user" link isn't there. 82.152.216.15 (talk) 18:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe you have to be a registered user to use that function. Hazardous Matt (talk) 18:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Or just read the last sentence on his user page under "contact me", where it says:

"Other inquiries of any kind can be sent by e-mail to jwaleswikia.com. (Press inquiries by e-mail are also welcome.)"

He's pretty good about prompt replies. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 18:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks, I didn't see it the first time. 82.152.216.15 (talk) 19:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

'Tis about me no doubt. Theresa Knott | Hasten to trek 19:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

For reference, this is in regard to an AN/I discussion located here:[6]. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI ^TALK/_CNTRB 19:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah Theresa Knott.... Cussing out the IPs again? Wales will be upset. (note sarcasm). NickCT (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Again? I did it more than once? I am innnnnnoccenttt I tell ya! This particular IP is enjoying the drama far too much to stop just yet a while. Theresa Knott | Hasten to trek 20:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Your user page

I feel stupid asking you this because your the founder and probably have a reason for it. Your user page gets vandalized daily, why don't you protect it? Inka888^ContribsTalk 22:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Because there are enough people watching and defending it? :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok thanks, I was hoping to hear from Jimbo about it. Inka888^ContribsTalk 03:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Inka 888, you pretty much can... go to his userpage, and read what he wrote in the bottom box. It directly addresses the question you have posed. Best, Robert ROBERTMFROMLI ^TALK/_CNTRB 04:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)