Talk:Ronald Reagan

Clarknova strongly objects to unspecified edits since Reagan's death on NPOV grounds and believes they will need to be rewritten. 06:42, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC). Summarized by MW

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Considering he just died, it is probably unnecessary to have so much embarrassing detail about his "sit and stare" phase.

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Shouldn't most of the Iran-Contra stuff be one the Iran-Contra page, not this one? A brief explanation would fit here but in-depth should be on its own page.

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He is credited with:

• defeating the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries
• rebuilding the military - this caused the Soviet Union to go bankrupt trying to keep up its military

This was done based on CIA numbers for Soviet nuclear weapons that turned out to be drastically overestimated, and many believe that they would have fallen apart anyway.

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He should be credited with defeating the Soviet Union.

I don't think that's an uncontroversial opinion. The USSR fell apart during his term, but because it (foolishly) tried to keep up with his arms spending, not because he did anything to it. Probably the best way to put it would be that he "radically increased military spending (and violated a few treaties) to the point where the Soviet Union was unable to keep up, and collapsed soon thereafter."

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The main page is very nice, but it tends to focus only on the positive things about Reagan. I think that there is a need on the page for a _non-partisan_ (of course!) presentation of some criticisms. I just added a line about Iran-Contra, which I unfortunately know too little about to say much of value.

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The talk page is the place to hash out controversial issues.

For example, many people believe that Reagan did not care for low income people. That is not true. He believed that the individual can take care of himself better than a Washington bureacrat. Evidence for:

• earned income credit - government subsidy to low income working people (and definitely anti-right wing)
• derregulation of air fares - opened air travel to many more low income people
• 1986 tax reduction - greatly lowered the tax desirability of owning real estate - this reduced the value of real estate and led to increased liquidity in the real estate market - this led to a greatly increased availability of lower priced homes and a much higher home ownership rate - no one credits Reagan with this because it has taken 15 years
• 1986 tax reduction - second major effect - freed up the allocation of money invested in real estate to fund new businesses which created many new jobs and many new middle class people - increased liquidity of capital/business translates into innovation and more jobs - translates into increases in productivity - translates into improvments in the standard of living

Many new media stories portrayed Reagan as one who only helped the rich.

Fundamentaly, it comes to a question of:

• Did Reagan's actions trigger events that caused an increase in the standard of living?

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In another forum, I wrote that Ronald Reagan would be the best president to have a beer with. Bill Clinton would be the best president to go to a strip club with.

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Reading from Europe, I miss the importance (not otherwise specified) of recalling his father's vertues; whatever might you think about the person (Ronald), I cannot consider it generous to include this, unless this private fact affected by any mean Usa's events. Is it really a substantial information to leave it in the article?

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Reagan was:

• tough on crime

I don't think that's a particularly useful statement. I don't think there are too many people that are in favour of crime, as a rule. What distinguinghes people like Reagan is that he thought of crime as primarily a personal responsibility, b) believed that people can be deterred from committing crime by harsh penalties, and c) believe that regardless of its deterrent potential, people deserve to suffer for their crimes on, when it comes down to it, the old "eye-for-an-eye" principle. He also believed that d) victimless crimes like taking drugs deserve punishment too.

OK, so I'm a bleeding-heart Australian leftie whose understanding of Reagan's time in office is mainly retrospective, so my take might be skewed. Would somebody else like to clarify it--Robert Merkel

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Well, maybe it could be said that he was unmerciful torwards criminals, which was a reverse of the trends torwards rehabilitation of criminals, etc. We now have a "hardcore" zero-tolerance society, with laws derived from the national sport. (Here in the states, anyway, YMMV.) Speaking of criminals, it sounds a little POV to call someone, "deranged", I think. I would remove it but the User:Isis got me in the habit of running my changes by others first. What do y'all think? --Two halves 05:09 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)

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I'm surprised there's no mention of his stance (or lack thereof) on AIDS. How big of a deal was that? Does it deserve a brief mention, a full subsection, or what? (I was just a kid at the time so I'm at a slight disadvantage here.) -- General Wesc 15:39 28 May 2003 (UTC)

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missing from this article is mention of the Beirut Deployment. Please add when you can. Kingturtle 21:58, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Change: Added more information regarding the genesis of Reagan's political career, most specifically pertaining to his well-documented cooperation with the House Un-American Activities Committee during the 1950's; minor changes to wording elsewhere. Spider Jerusalem 15:51 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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141.153.234.92, some of your information was very good, but a lot of it just wasn't wikified. I'm unsure if I should just revert the page, or try to patch it up. Punkche 16:08 20 January 2004

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I moved the quote section here as it is patently POV anti-Reagan.

Quotes

In June 1989, Ronald Reagan said, "Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders. ... The Goliath of totalitarianism will be brought down by the David of the microchip." [1]

OK, this is not POV. But is this really among the most famous things he said? He was out of office.

"What does an actor know about politics?", criticising Screen Actors Guild president Ed Asner for his views on foreign policy.

Needs source, or more explanation.

"I know all the bad things that happened in that war. I was in uniform for four years myself," defending his visit to the Bitburg Military Cemetery. He spent the duration of World War II making military training videos in Hollywood.

Accuracy issue first: Reagan produced films while in the military. Video(tape) was in its embryonic stages. More to the point, this quote would be appropriate in a discussion of the Bitburg cemetery controversy.

"Facts are stupid things"

This was a blunder in his 1988 convention speech. The correct quote, used by Reagan as an iteration in the speech, was "Facts are stubborn things". He got it right except that once.

"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes," during a radio microphone test in 1984

This was a joke, made when he assumed he was off-mike.

209.149.235.254 00:10, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Because you do not question the validity of these quotes, you admit they are all accurate, I don't think it would be appropriate to take them out. I think you should find some quotes that are "pro-Reagan." Punkche 13:30 6 Feb 2004 (MST)

That would begin the process of transforming the article into a debate forum, which is not the purpose of Wikipedia articles. Instead, I put an NPOV dispute message on the article. 209.149.235.254 21:46, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The quotes should be removed because any hand-selected list here is inherently POV. The compromise is to give an external link to Wikiquote (here) where an extensive listing of quotes is possible. This has been done on other articles. --Minesweeper 07:12, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

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On the Bitburg visit:

"First, he announced he would not visit a concentration camp in West Germany because there were "very few alive that remember even the war, and certainly none of them who were adults and participating in any way." "

Reagan did, in fact, visit the Bergen-Belsen camp on the same visit. This would appear to be at odds with the quote. Need a source on that.

"Reagan, in an attempt to defend the incident, claimed that he had done so in response to a letter he received from a teenage girl in Chicago; she promptly surfaced with her letter which had urged him not to do so."

Have not been able to find any substantiation for this.

The rewritten paragraph is consistent with the public record.

209.149.235.254 22:54, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What exactly is the public record? Where can I find it? http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2001-05-04-protest.shtml here is one of many tales of the Reagan press conference in which he discussed the Bitburg letter.

The quote about the concentration camp shows that he had to change his mind on a visit to a concentration camp before he visited Germany. http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/hist133p/133p-99/vign1985the.993.htm that is my source on that quote.

Punkche 19:32 14 Feb 2004 (MST)

Re: the letter from the girl about the cemetery - the David Corn column cited was written 16 years after the fact. And it was a retrospective on the death of Joey Ramone. There's gotta be something more contemporary than that.

I agree that the Bergen-Belsen camp visit was a late addition to the tour. Nevertheless Reagan did go. 209.149.235.254 16:28, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A couple of items/corrections:

First, the recession began in 1981 (summer) and lasted through the spring of 1982. To label it as a "1982" recession implies that it was (at least) partially caused by Reagan's economic policies when in fact it began even before his first budget was approved by Congress. Remember that the first tax cuts were not received by taxpayers until the 1982 calendar year.

Second, the actual income figures show improvements in all eight budget years for Ronald Reagan's presidency. The "average hourly wage" is not comparable to annual income (it even says so in the published study) and can decline in "average" the same way that the population of a country grows "younger" on average.

Reagan's military service:

It actually began before the war, when he cheated on an eye exam to get into the Army reserve as a Cavalry officer in 1935. After Pearl Harbor he became "regular army" and was assigned to the First Motion Picture Unit in the Army Air Corps, which of course made training and education films. Not only was this logical given Reagan's profession, but with his poor eyesight and sub-par hearing he never would have been assigned to a combat unit. In addition, he turned 31 in February of 1942, making him older than the average combat soldier (26) by a few years.

Now, his mention of the holocaust is valid because one of the tasks of the First Motion Picture Unit was to screen incoming film of the concentration camps. He indeed was one of the first people "stateside" to see the film of the camps, and also had access to the unedited (graphic) versions.

I agree that the quotes portion is woefully inadequate. Perhaps linking to the various Ronald Reagan quote pages is a better solution.

The crime issue deserves a separate page. There are a number of related issues (the rise of crack cocaine, public outcry over lenient sentancing, AIDS and IV drug use, the war on drugs, etc.) that make it impossible to encapsulate in one or two sentances. In addition, it was congressional Democrats who tried to use "tough on crime" as an issue against Ronald Reagan in the 1986 election cycle. It was their proposals for long jail terms for drug law violations that eventually became law.

Disclosure: I run the President Reagan Information Page at http://www.presidentreagan.info/

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Also the bombing quote is off on this page

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to announce that I've just signed legistlation that will outlaw russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"

That is exactly what he said. I have the audio clip. I dont know if that helps anyone or anything :S

~JessPKC 1:58AM Feb17th 2004

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Doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion of the recent changes, so, I added the info about Reagan's military service to the bio section, and dropped it from the explanation about the quote. I also removed the NPOV dispute, as I put it there and the issues I had have been dealt with. 209.149.235.254 00:54, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ronald Reagan's body

Ronald Reagan is 93 years old. No previous President has lived so long. What is currently going on with his body??

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"Near the end of his term, Reagan was also instrumental in supporting the transition of Latin American democracy, giving generous foreign aid packages to states who held free elections. "

This seems to be biased and factually inaccurate. Reagan was certainly not very pleased with the elections in Nicaragua in 1984. The Reagan Administration also supported numerous dictatorships around the world, including in Latin America (Brazil, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Uruguay, among others). Yes, El Salvador did get money to hold "elections," although they could hardly be considered in any sense free, considering, for one thing, the prominence of death squads.

Quotes

The "quotes" section seems like it will be a pov magnet. NPOV is not about simply presenting both positive and negative. The quotes don't really enhance the understanding of Reagan. I think we ought to take it out, and will commence. Meelar 02:07, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

See also Wikiquote. --mav 02:19, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Which is why I tried to take the quotes off the article earlier. 209.149.235.254 00:04, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

but now it seems that most of the quotes which make him look bad have been taken out of the article, even those which were well publicized at the time and do indeed tell something about his thinking (like the 5 minutes bombing joke), while those which make him appear witty and likeable have remained (like the 'hope you are republicans' anecdote which has a prominent place in the first paragrph on his presidency - actually i love that one ;) ). hardly npov either. High on a tree 02:22, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the reason that those are in here is that they're presented within the context of the article, and aren't isolated in a "Quotes" section. Feel free to incorporate other quotes, as long as they're germane and an organic part of the article. Yours, Meelar 02:33, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Date incongruity

In 1921, at the age of 11, Reagan was baptized...

If Reagan was born in 1911, he couldn't have been eleven in 1921. Was he baptized in '21, or at age 11 (in '22 or early '23)? Garrett Albright 03:29, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

While I'm at it...

Child of an alcoholic father, Reagan developed an early gift for storytelling and acting.

What does one have to do with the other? :P Garrett Albright 22:24, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

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Why revert my edit revealing Nancy Reagan's full maiden name? And again, why delete the presidents table which is in other presidential bios?

Profession

'Gov. of California' is not a profession, it is a job. If you mean that his profession was 'politician' as well as actor, well, kind of, but every President is a politician. Let's just stick with actor. Mark Richards 20:49, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

ABC news reports Reagan's Death

ABC news is reporting that Reagan died today. I have added pertinent info.Brian Schlosser42 20:54, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Interestingly...

This is the first time in more than 30 years when there was a time when an earlier President (Jimmy Carter) survived a later President (Ronald Reagan). The previous time was from 1969 to 1972 when Harry Truman survived Dwight Eisenhower. What does this sound like to you?? 66.32.138.16 22:57, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

New Sections

I felt compelled to add sections on Personality and Presidential "Style" as I believe they are important attributes of a president. I was surprised to find no such text. As a (regrettably) "Reagan Democrat" I feel that these are important and relevant additions to this page. Leonard G. 23:23, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Photographs

Okay, this page is now offically overloaded with photographs. Please no more. --Rookkey 00:21, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Interestingly... (part 2)

I've always felt that he had some sort of mysterious connection to my grandmother, although to the best of my knowledge she had never met him. He was born just over 1/2 year before she was (Sep. 1911). I know that doesn't mean too much, but we have two other things. One of her daughters, and one grandson were both born on Feb 6th. And Ronald Reagan passed away 11 months to the day after she had (July 5, 2003).

You may not agree with his politics, or what he had done while President. But still, today the United States of America, and indeed the world has lost a great man.

JesseG 00:40, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ducking joke

" to his wife Nancy he jokingly commented, "Honey, I forgot to duck.""

What does this joke mean ? It's possible Americans may understand this joke not others. If someone explains it here that would be helpful. Jay 09:06, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reagan was 93 ??!?

Reagan was 93 ??? I would have guessed he was in his 70's looking at his photographs. Does anyone his pics as recent as 1 or 2 years back ? Jay 09:08, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

He was born in 1911, according to whatever news channel is on TV behind me. 2004-1911=93. Yeah, he does look young, esp. considering his advanced Alzheimer's(sp). DryGrain 09:14, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)