Talk:Moors

Shakespeare and 'The Moor'

The sentence at the heart of the current dispute is, 'The description Moors has referred to several historic and modern populations of Berber and Arab descent from Northern Africa, some of whom came to conquer and occupy the Iberian Peninsula for nearly 800 years.'

Some editors have removed the term 'black African' of course, such editors are not motivated by racial hatred. Far from it. But here is the reality. The term 'Moors' is an English word that has historically been applied to various of people. Among those categories are 'black Africans'. A primary example of this description is the use by William Shakespeare, one of the most highly regarded writers in world history. The question is not whether all moors were 'black Africans', nor whether all Arabs or Berbers are black Africans. The question is whether black Africans were ever referred to by English speakers using the word 'Moors'. And, as we all know, they were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ackees (talk • contribs) 15:54, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Make an article chapter (entitled, for example, "Race aspects") and bring forth pertinent arguments and references. I bet some editors will happily counter-argue if given the chance. And for the future, don`t simply insert content into the lead paragraph only because you think Shakespeare would agree. ITSENJOYABLE (talk) 16:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand that editors with a poor grasp of literary history may not regard Shakespeare as a useful source on the useage of the English word 'Moor'. They might fail to understand why such a highly-educated and sophisticated writer would identify the term 'moor' with the term 'black'. But frankly I don't buy it. The reality is, wikipedia is populated by hordes of racist trolls that simply hate black people.Ackees (talk) 16:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

The term "Moor" originally was one of the several name of the Berber peoples (Moors of Mauritania Tigintania i.e modernday Morocco). It is only after the Arab invasion of the 17th centry , that this word was introduced into European languags as a synonym of Arab and Berber descent people from Northern Africa living there and/or in Spain. Laterly the term "Moor" became a basic synonym of "Muslim" , and this term was used for much of Muslim people (example : Sri-Lankans Muslim were called "Moors" by Portuguese settlers , same goes for Muslims of Filipino Islands , some Muslims of West-Africa were also classified as "Moors". In some European texts , Turk sailors are described as "Moors of Turkey" (i.e Muslims of Turkey). However the original "Moor" term was basically limited to North Africa and to a less extent Spain during the Moorish period. Ekarfi13 19:52 30 July 2010 (UTC)

OED ref

About the question whether "Moor" could historically also refer to black Africans in general: Shakespeare is of course not the suitable reference, but the OED is. Here's the definition:

Originally: a native or inhabitant of ancient Mauretania, a region of North Africa corresponding to parts of present-day Morocco and Algeria. Later usually: a member of a Muslim people of mixed Berber and Arab descent inhabiting north-western Africa (now mainly present-day Mauritania), who in the 8th cent. conquered Spain.
In the Middle Ages, and as late as the 17th cent., the Moors were widely supposed to be mostly black or very dark-skinned, although the existence of ‘white Moors’ was recognized [...]. Thus the term was often used, even into the 20th cent., with the sense ‘black person’.

So, yes, certainly North Africa as the primary and proper meaning, but occasional extension to the whole of Africa is well documented. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Exactly!Ackees (talk) 15:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Tanned?!?!

This article has virtually no credibility. At no point did "Moor" ever denote "tanned". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parrish Smith (talk • contribs) 08:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The reference is to a meaning of 'moreno' in Spanish and Portuguese. Do you speak either of these languages? Paul B (talk) 09:01, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't speak either language, but both are derived from Latin, and it doesn't take a speaker to see that rather than giving a clear definition - "tanned" is a deliberate obfuscation. "Tanned" in Portuguese translates as curtir, while in Spanish it is bronceado. The website etymonline.com defines "Moor" as such:

"North African, Berber," late 14c., from O.Fr. More, from M.L. Morus, from L. Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Gk. Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adj. only appears in late Gk. and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

The above definition isn't entirely correct because the term "Moor" was applied indiscriminately to all Muslims, at least in Spanish, from as early as the 12th century. But still, it comes closer than the article, which doesn't even bother to provide a source. Again, this passage has virtually no credibility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parrish Smith (talk • contribs) 17:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

You are making absolutely no sense whatever. The etymology of the word has no relevance to how one of its derivatives is now used. None of this stuff has any relevance to the sentence in question, which is not about usage in the 12th century or ancient times, but is 'one sentence in a long article describing the various usages of the word. "Tanned" is one of the modern meanings 'moreno' [1]. Why is this a problem for you? Paul B (talk) 17:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

What is it you don't understand? The etymology is relevant because the passage outlines 'modern' interpretations without first establishing the ancient or pre-modern meaning, leaving the impression contemporary usages of the term reflect its original application - beginning with "tanned". Hence the paragraph, going on to say " ... moro ("Moor") came to have a broader meaning ..." - suggests not only that 'tanned' predates the other interpretations, but also that it naturally follows from the root. That maurus in modern terms can be conflated with 'tan' or 'tawny' is irrelevant to the root, which concerns why the term was applied to NW Africans in the first place. The passage appears to be deliberately confusing, to dissociate the semantic underpinnings of the term altogether. This can even be said of the example in Ludovico Sforza. A better example would be Alessandro de' Medici.