Talk:Targeted killing/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

tyop

{{edit protected}} Per the source, it appears that the word "feet" in the fourth paragraph (before 2.5 inches) was a tyop put into the article by accident (by me). Would appreciate it if someone w/article access were to delete it. Many thanks. Epeefleche.

I believe this would qualify as a uncontroversial improvement. However, the request was not specific. One possibility would be to replace "{{ft in to m|2.5}}" with "{{in to cm|2.5}}" in the source − with the rendered text changing from "Template:Ft in to m" to "Template:In to cm". Please confirm. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 04:58, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not sure how to get there, but to be clearer what I would suggest is that the reader see "that are about 2.5 inches (0.8 m) long" rather than "that are about feet 2.5 inches (0.8 m) long". That is what I intended when I wrote it. All I am looking to do is delete the stray word "feet", which does not belong there, and is there due to my inadvertence. Thanks.Epeefleche (talk) 06:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done, of course 2.5 inches is not 0.8m! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:57, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Whoops .. tyop on top of tyop ... thanks for that! You're perfectly correct; tx for the fix.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

unprotect and/or flag as POV

{{editprotected}} 1. There has been extensive comment at talk:Assassination#RFC:_Should_there_be_a_separate_article_called_Targeted_killing and there is a clear majority supporting this article. I believe this will end the edit war and request that the page be unprotected.

{{editprotected}} 2. I would also like to add {{Unbalanced}} to the top of the article ASAP. If the article is unprotected I can do it myself, but I think it should be done soon so I'm requesting an admin add the template regardless of whether the protecting admin is available to unprotect as requested above. Thundermaker (talk) 21:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Decline. RFC has been open for only about 3 days. Would be more appropriate to unprotected, IFF there is consensus at the RFC, after at least over one full week. -- Cirt (talk) 22:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Really? I thought the purpose of protection in this case was to stop an edit war. That has been done; I am sure the warring parties will abide by the RFC consensus. If you're saying all work on the page must stop until the close of the RFC, I disagree. I for one am willing to take the chance that my work will be lost if the consensus turns to redirect.

I suppose I can accept the language of the existing pp-dispute template as a covering my issue too. I was a little surprised you completely ignored that request. Thundermaker (talk) 00:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you should re-protet the page or I will revet to the status quo as it has been for several years until the RFC decides the issue. If I do that there is no evidence that my revet will not be reverted. Indeed I am tempted to do it anyway as then it might be he "tright version was protected". -- PBS (talk) 00:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

OK then, my edit-war-is-over argument just went out the window. I withdraw the unprotect request. Thundermaker (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Unbalanced

This article presents the view that Targeted Killings are not instances of assassination as undisputed. This is generally the view of the perpetrating nation but almost never the victim's. Multiple views on this issue should be presented, especially in the highly unbalanced "Targeted killing vs. assassination" section. Thundermaker (talk) 21:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

• Our Taliban article is sorely lacking in the Taliban’s point of view as to why girls’ schools should be burned, their teachers murdered, and women flogged right in the middle of the street for showing a little ankle under their burka. It also lacks “perspective” from the Taliban’s point of view as to how the West is evil and should be destroyed. But we don’t bother with “balancing” articles with that point of view because of WP:POV. We look towards reliable sources (Kill America Gazette does not count) and the RSs and scholarly papers on the subject, like Targeted Killing in International Law by Oxford University Press clearly deal with the subject as something quite distinct from assassination. It is not our job as volunteer wikipedians with far too much time on our hands to muse as to whether or not “Them Oxford dudes are naive and ain’t so sharp.”

  Recap: Again, we look towards RSs for balance and do not look towards individual editors’ sense of “what’s fair” and “let’s see Anwar’s side of the story.” Anwar al-Awlaki (currently the subject of a targeted killing) declared in a video that he wants to kill one million Americans in a jihad. Osama bin Laden received permission from a top Muslim cleric that God says it’s OK for Osama to use weapons of mass destruction to kill up to ten-million Americans. If a significant percentage of RSs write about how “That’s all just so sweet and the West should capture them and put an after-dinner mint on their pillow at night and ask them ‘pretty please’ don’t kill ten-million of us’,” then you can add that to this article and properly cite the RSs.

  But for the moment, the U.S. president takes the national security threats very seriously and the U.S. government now has a new term to describe the new circumstances. All the most respected RSs use that new terminology. Please desist with your POV-pushing; I’m not interested in seeing Wikipedia’s article “balanced” with Anwar’s point of view, nor yours. Over at WP:RS, I see nothing that says “As far as RSs go, the U.S. government is unreliable, biased, evil, and can’t be trusted. Go run to Thundermaker; he is wise and knows The Truth®™©.” Greg L (talk) 15:03, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

See talk:assassination#RFC: Should there be a separate article called Targeted killing -- PBS (talk) 01:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree w/Thunder as he suggested at the link that PBS points to immediately above that it seems like the vast majority supports a separate "targeted killing" article, that PBS should respect consensus, that PBS should desist in edit warring, and that that redundant RFC should be closed reflecting the vast majority consensus. Also agree w/the view expressed above that the balance sought to be reflected on wp is whatever balance appears in the RSs.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:18, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Epeefleche, PBS ceased edit-warring before you did. We need to respect his sincere dissent from consensus. Greg L, retract your incivility. Thundermaker (talk) 20:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Thunder -- PBS 1) started edit warring; 2) was deleting a 100K article w/150 refs because of his difficult-to-understand failure to note consensus, a Nelson's-eye approach that persists even to this day, and is a direct failure to follow wp:consensus as required by wp:admin, and 3) all I did was restore his deletions -- which is appropriate. I don't agree w/your views here, as explained, you've not explained them, and I don't see consensus support here for a tag.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Delete has a specific meaning on Wikipedia. I did not delete anything, I reverted to the stable version of the page (which was a redirect). I am waiting until the RFC is finished, to see whether this page becomes a redirect again. If it not then I agree with the tag that Thundermaker has added this article as the article does not represent agreed definitions.

Text copied down to a new section

For example take the first two sentences: Targeted killing is the intentional killing – by a government or its agents – of a civilian or "enemy combatant" targeted by the government, who is not in the government's custody. The target is a person taking part in an armed conflict (e.g., terrorism), whether by bearing arms or otherwise, who has thereby lost the immunity from being targeted that he would otherwise have under the Third Geneva Convention. What is an "enemy combatant" (the link does not explain)? If it includes soldiers (the usual definition) then enemy soldiers can be targeted and killed, but that is not usually what assassination/targeted killing means. If a civilian takes an active part in hostilities are they not combatants (unprivileged combatants)? If so then what other civilians are we talking about? What does "government's custody" mean? Who says that terrorism is an "armed conflict"? The British for example have always been very careful not to mix up the two. For example there is a reason the Malayan Emergency was called an emergency, and why the war with the IRA was not recognised by successive British governments as an armed conflict. The Americans have been very careful with their definitions of armed conflict so as not to recognise that the Guantanamo Bay captives have any privileges under the international provisions of GCIII but only under the common articles such as GCIII.3. Even that has been argued against by American Government lawyers who argue that GCIII does not apply at all because terrorists are not members of one of the High Contracting Parties, and even if they were members of a "Power" --which the US does not agree that they are-- they are members of an organisation that does not "applies the provisions" of GCIII, so GCIII does not apply in law. Even ignoring the US government's legal arguments, where is there any protection under the Third Geneva convention that protects civilians from attack (it is of course part of the laws and customs of war and is described in Hague Conventions (1907) (mainly IV — The Laws and Customs of War on Land). But where is it described in GCIII? Please provide quotes from the one and only given source, that covers each and every one of the points I have asked here, because AFAICT either the source has been misunderstood or it is not a reliable source.

-- PBS (talk) 23:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

PBS--what you did, as you well know, had precisely the same effect as a deletion, in that anyone searching for the article by the only name that it had would not see the article. You are simply wikilawyering.

You then did it time after time. Without a reasonable response. Much as you keep on ignoring the consensus on the talk page of the RFC, where the issue had already been discussed for many months before you started the RFC, which reflects near-unanimous consensus disagreeing with your view. Your "contribution" has been one of persistent disruption. And your comment "I am waiting until the RFC is finished, to see whether this page becomes a redirect again" suggests a failure on your part to read the many comments from these past months, and respect consensus. That unnecessary RFC has dramatically confirmed how needless it was, in the responses you received. And you, in your tendentious attacks on the comments of the other editors who do not share your views at that RFC, have ably confirmed that your behavior is not limited only to an unfortunate disrespect for consensus/disruption of 2 hours as you edit-warred in your effort to make wikipedia targeted-killing-rein. It might perhaps be consistent with admin status for you to edit in accord with wp:consensus and to avoid being disruptive, as is required by wp:admin.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

To use a soccer expression "play the ball and not the man". Not one sentence, not even one phrase, that you have contributed to this section (or even this page) has addressed the content of this article and the concerns raised by other editors about this article. This talk page is meant to be for discussing the content of the article. Now you have three choices. Either you can start to address the content issues, or you can continue to discuss other editors, or you can leave the article and the talk page to others. Which is it to be? -- PBS (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I haven't discussed the man, or woman. Not a bit. Just the disruptive editing of the content of the page that this talk page relates to (by a man, or woman). I'm sure the man, or woman, is a fine chap, or lass. When they kick the other editors, instead of the ball, that is however worthy of notice. The talk page is a good place to start that discussion, and ask the editor to stop that practice. And, since the editor has in the past asked me about the application of wp:admin to his editing of this very page, to elucidate that. I've already addressed the content issues. Also, since you yourself pointed to the RFC (which you yourself started), which relates to this page, I've discussed that -- how in the world you can then protest my discussing the RFC after you pointed us to it above escapes me. I would point out as well that your above "you have three choices" and "which is it to be" is a bit patronizing.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

"disruptive editing" is not a description of the content of the article it is a comment on your personal view on what you think of other editors behaviour. Thundermaker has made a statement about the content of the article which you have not yet addressed so presumably you agree with her/his statement. I have raised some specific points about the content of the first two sentences. Unless you articulate a defence of those points raised, then presumably you agree with the criticisms (WP:SILENCE) and won't object if the article is changed. -- PBS (talk) 01:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

In addition, having read each of the 150 refs in the article in full at this point, as well as other sources, I note that the article does reflect with balance the views that appear in the RSs. I concur with Greg's comments above. I also concur with the vast majority consensus at the RFC that PBS points us to (though I note that he fails to acknowledge the overwhelming consensus there).--Epeefleche (talk) 05:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

A comment on procedure. The RFC is running its course, it will end automatically at the end of a month. If this article was still a redirect, then there would be some justification in reverting to the current version of the article, as the consensus is at the moment for the creation of the article. If by the end of the RFC there is no consensus for the article we can always merge it back into the Assassination article and go back to the redirect.

A comment on the content. The first two sentences are supported by one citation. As explained above there are grounds for thinking that either the source given as a reliable source is not reliable, or the sources does not support the summary presented in the text. Pleas provide quotes from the source here on the talk page that support the issues raised above. -- PBS (talk) 20:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• It is common when an RfC is severely lopsided to conclude it after two weeks. The RfC to merge with Assassination concluded with an overwhelming consensus to keep both articles. The merge tags have been deleted. Greg L (talk) 21:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I have put them back. The RFC will end automatically after a month. At that time we can asses what the consensus is, until then the banner serves as an advert for the RFC and should stay. -- PBS (talk) 23:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• Wikiipedia is not a bureaucracy. The community consensus is clear and extraordinarily lopsided. I suggest you think hard as to whether you want to push this any further. See talk here. Greg L (talk) 12:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Tagging of articles

PBS, I see you restored (∆ here) the {biased tag}. As you stated in your edit summary, the issues are being discussed here. The tag invites others to add “information on neglected viewpoints, or discuss the issue on the talk page.” Such tags are not be used like a big piece of graffiti on the storefront each morning screaming I-DON’T LIKE IT as tool to force others to address the dissenting voice of someone whose views are not representative of the community consensus and that dissenter just won’t let it go. Now…

Let’s be clear that your opposition to this article runs long and deep. You at first redirected “Targeted killing” to “Assassination.” Then you started an RfC on whether there should be a separate article. All the while, you edit warred with Epeefleche by refusing to let the article exist while the RfC was ongoing and you did this by insisting on redirecting the article to “Assassination”. Epeefleche took you to ANI over your conduct. So then you changed your tact and abandoned edit warring over *redirecting* and instead focused your efforts on making it an issue of *merging*. Accordingly, an RfC that began as one over redirecting and was going down in flames so you morphed it into one about merging. There, the clear, landslide community consensus was that it wanted this article as it was distinct from ‘Assassination’. Many saw your motives as POV-pushing.

And now, just days later, you added a {this article is biased} tag. Curious. (*sigh*) Therefore, the following straw poll:

Straw poll
Motioned: Is the ‘Targeted killing’ article sufficiently balanced and cited that it does not need a “biased” tag added by PBS?

• Yes. Delete the tag. The article cites copious reliable sources. User:PBS exhibited a persistent and clear pattern of opposing even the existence of this article and the tag is just another tool that does more to disrupt than anything else. Greg L (talk) 23:19, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
• No need to have a straw poll. I've removed the tag. No discussion in 2 weeks. No suggestions from RSs that have been over-looked.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:28, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

• Very well, I warned him on his talk page that no good will come of it if he persists like this. It is WP:Tendentious editing, which is a form of disruption. The views of the community on this issue trump his concerns. He would be wise to move on. Greg L (talk) 23:53, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

This article as it stands on October 19, 2010 is a counterexample to the old saw: "A picture is worth a thousand words." I was initially offended by the picture of the corpse of Al-Zarqawi but on closer inspection concluded that none of the pictures add anything to the subject at hand, which is targeted killing. Not the picture of Leon Panetta, of the Predator drone, of the aftermath of the 1998 embassy bombings, etc. As a matter of fact, it's hard to think of a picture that would be an illustration of targeted killing. Removing the pictures would make the article visually dull, but that's the way it is. Take a look at a philosophy book.

If there is particular affection for the pictures, including them in new articles is one possibility. A separate article on Targeted Killing Tools is one possiblity. An article on People Who Have Used Targeted Killing would cover Panetta. Al-Zarqawi could be brought in under Famous Deaths (by Targeted Killing), to borrow from Monty Python. SDCHS (talk) 02:07, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I recognize that you are a brand-new editor, so I understand your reaction. Actually, on wikipedia (as in encyclopedias in general), there are no doubt many photos that people may find offensive, from those of abortions to nudity to cartoons of religious figures. Given the nature of the project, however, we use photos to better illustrate the subjects described in the articles, which is precisely what these pictures do here. Best, and I look forward to working with you in the future at the Project.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Read again. The only picture I found at all offensive was that of Al-Zarqawi's corpse. My complaint is that none of the pictures is pertinent to the subject.

If you disagree with that complaint, here's a challenge. Choose any picture and explain how it adds to the discussion of targeted killing. The choice of pictures is yours, but I'd be particularly interested in seeing a rationale for including a picture of Leon Panetta. SDCHS (talk) 07:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

The images illustrate the text in the article, such as by reflecting images of Panetta (who has headed the CIA, which has been conducting targeted killings, as discussed), drones and missiles used to perform TKs, what TKs have been used in reaction to, etc. Images reflecting text in the articles is the standard use of images on wiki.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:11, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

So far, only two of us are participating in this discussion, so we might as well terminate it. Besides, we're running out of colons for indentation.

I did some checking on the claim of "the standard use of images on wiki" and I'll at least partly agree. I found other articles with images that illustrated nothing about the subject of the articles. I also found articles whose images were quite pertinent to the article's subject. Naturally, I found articles with with a mixture of images. It looks like a question of taste or style so I'll stop. I've registered my opinion and that's all it is: my opinion. SDCHS (talk) 01:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

dont get mad but

if this is about a (universal) justice, why does it read like a dissemination of israeli arguments against the palestines, it fails to make any but weirdest of impressions that an article like this would need endless exemplification of possibly subjective israeli reasoning. just my 2p, ofcourse i do understand it is what the usian public got. just look at how often the word israel is mentioned, it even gets whole chapters. that's statistically most disturbing (no coincedence). 80.57.43.99 (talk) 05:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll do a special search for any Palestinian professors (maybe you can help -- I see you are an Al-Jazeerah reader). When it comes to courts, it has been the Israeli, US, Spanish, and Brit courts (or legal processes) so far. And of course when it comes to the US vs. Al Qaeda, we are more likely to get US government officials on the record (like Obama) than al-Qaeda govt officials who are former law profs. But with the ongoing al-aulaqi litigation, there should be more coming out from the ACLU and human rights orgs over the next few months.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:10, 20 October 2010 (UTC)