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Discussion du Projet:Canada (Français) Welcome to the discussion page of WikiProject Canada Template:WPCanada Navigation List of last surviving Canadian war veterans FYI, List of last surviving Canadian war veterans has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 05:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC) FYI, List of last surviving Canadian war veterans has been requested to be renamed, but it seems like an incorrect proposal for merge instead. See talk:List of last surviving Canadian war veterans. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 07:12, 11 November 2010 (UTC) FYI, it is now nominated to be merged into Last North American veterans by war along with Last surviving United States war veterans. See Talk:Last surviving United States war veterans. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 07:12, 11 November 2010 (UTC) What a bloody mess. AFD, move and merge discussions were all initiated at once, there are two separate discussions going on two separate pages, and it is not helped by the creation of new lists while the merge discussion is ongoing. The consolidated discussion is at Talk:Last surviving United States war veterans#Merger proposal. Ughh.--Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC) Project look update I have been bold this weekend and have created a project header for us all to navigate our project (that has grown by leaps and bounds since its inception) I have add this to the top of all relevant project pages (as seen at the top of this page). See Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Tab header for header page. I have also created a new WP:Canada page called "help" See: Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Help pls add what can help us and the newbies to this page. I am aware of Template:WPCanada Navigation but find this to be not to newbie friendly and complicated in general for no reason. All the best ...Moxy (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Nice job! Bearcat (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Sorry about the red someone is editing in the middle of me doing it ..will fix it all up soon. You guys ok with the red??Moxy (talk) 23:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC) 'Sorry'? For what? As my edit summaries said, I was matching the colour to the rest of the Canadian templates, in fact the specific red called for by the government for use in graphic depictions of the flag online. What, exactly, will you 'fix'? Nothing is broken. → ROUX ₪ 23:39, 14 November 2010 (UTC) I meant the big red line ..Fixed .. not sure y the tab thing is not working on two tabbed pages but o well all looks good. Moxy (talk) 00:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC) It is too wide for the thinner browser windows. Should this be fixed? 117Avenue (talk) 01:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Interesting ...not sure here anyone else see this in this way? Dont want people to have to scroll...is it just this tabbed page or all of them for you ?? Moxy (talk) 01:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC) I can see the 'Deletion Talks' tab and half of 'WikiProjects', but then I have to scroll to see 'Assessment'. It's not a deal-breaker, but it's not what you intended, I'm sure. PKT(alk) 02:21, 15 November 2010 (UTC) At the window width I'm using right now I can only see to half of the "Deletion talks" tab. Same with all the other tabbed pages here. Otherwise, seems very nice. Pfly (talk) 02:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Dame let me work on this...I dont want people to have to scroll at all. Question 2 does it also do this at Wikipedia:WikiProject United States as there has been no complaints there. There is {| border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="background: transparent;" |- | valign="top" | {| border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="background: transparent; float: right;" |- | |} that might help. Question 3 do portals work normally for you guys? Just wondering because i use the same coding there to? Moxy (talk) 02:44, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Answer 2: On WPUSA I can see almost all of the tabs - just the edge of the last tab is off-screen. Answer 3: I can't recall seeing many of those tab bars before tonight. PKT(alk) 02:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Ok i added some coding to only on page Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Help.... does this help in anyway??Moxy (talk) 02:57, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Didn't seem to change anything for me. Like PKT, for me the final tab is cut off on the United States WP. Pfly (talk) 03:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC) very odd...I cant realy fix the problem without posting here everything i try because all is ok for me every time. let me talk to a few people (by email) see if i can solve this. Do you think we should remove it if i cant get this done fast... or is it still ok the way it is (as in useful). I hope this is only seen by a few editors in this manner. I take it portal:Canada is all ok right as it also has the tabs? Could be just to many tabsMoxy (talk) 03:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC) It's no big deal for me as is. Portal:Canada requires a little scrolling too. Admittedly I'm using a somewhat narrow window in order to have other windows open, etc. A bit of scrolling isn't that unusual for me. Pfly (talk) 03:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC) The problem is too much side by side text. How about the titles with multiple words get broken into two rows? 117Avenue (talk) 03:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC) What do you mean by a problem with the portals? I left a message at Template talk:Articles by Quality, for being too wide also, but never got a reply. I have had to side scroll Portal:Alberta since you added that template there too. 117Avenue (talk) 03:58, 15 November 2010 (UTC) OK got an email back and was told that its realy a personal setting and/or nonmax window size on the users end. Regardless i have implemented your suggestions because we should try and solve this for all. That said i do see the scroll bar when using my blackberry and when i minimized my normal PC windows.Moxy (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Oh hey, not sure what you did, but the tabs all fit just fine now. Looks nice. Pfly (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Thank god i been at this all day..........good good good enjoy guys ..ps looking for a copy edit of my latest article Former colonies and territories in Canada.Moxy (talk) 04:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Width looks good now (unless I shrink the window ridiculously small), good job! I just went through the tabs, some have a shaded background, are they all supposed to? 117Avenue (talk) 05:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC) yep they all should shade when there the one seen..Thats what i will be working on next..Think is because some are real sub pages and dont work the same way...in the end i will get it :).Moxy (talk) 05:15, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Nice work! The project was in need of an update. I was little tired of seeing the word "Beer" flash before me all the time. :-) Pfly (talk) 05:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC) The tabs look pretty good for me now, Moxy - well done! PKT(alk) 12:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Done Moxy!!! 87.2.85.223 (talk) 22:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC) I have a question about one of our sub projects Assessments. I can't find the normal page for "/Ottawa articles by quality statistics" so as of now its missing at -->Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Assessment#Canada-related assessments done partially as part of WikiProject Canada and partially as independent projects........can anyone help me here??Moxy (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC) I. 87.2.85.223 (talk) 22:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC) yawn. Good night, 87.2.85.223 (talk) 22:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)  Done I am all done ..pls fix anything you see that is wrong or missing (spell and grammar check of our main project page would be appreciated). I have tried to link (in a relevant place) all our project pages. Did this after realizing some pages are only looked at by only 1 or 2 users a day. Hopefully with the new layout (not all that different) pages like Cleanup listing, Unreferenced BLPs, New articles, etc..will be seen and thus more action taken on them. I can only guess that Template:WPCanada Navigation (that i have reordered) is not used very often and is y i did all this. Moxy (talk) 18:51, 21 November 2010 (UTC) "Canada was still legally a colony instead of a fully-fledged member of the sisterhood of nation-states" - input welcome We could use the assistance of history and constitutional buffs. There is language in the Constitution of Canada article which states that Canada was a colony until 1982. It has been marked with the {{dubious}} tag, and we are trying to make heads or tails of it. Assistance/input would be very welcome. Discussion is at Talk:Constitution of Canada#"Canada was still legally a colony instead of a fully-fledged member of the sisterhood of nation-states". Cheers. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 17:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC) There's a related discussion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_November_16#Category:Acts_of_the_United_Kingdom_Parliament_involving_the_Dominions.Skookum1 (talk) 22:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC) Winnipeg Grain Exchange I have created the article "Winnipeg Grain Exchange". Suggestions, please :) « CA » What your problem? 19:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC) I don't have time to take a good look at the articles at the moment, but is this the same thing as Winnipeg Commodity Exchange? -M.Nelson (talk) 20:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC) This reference says yes, the Grain Exchange is the predecessor of the Commodity Exchange. A merge is in order. PKT(alk) 20:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC) yes together they would make a better article.Moxy (talk) 23:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC) Is okay? I have done something wrong? « CA » What your problem? 10:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC) Yes, it is the predecessor of the Winnipeg Commodity Exchange. Is okay? « CA » What your problem? 10:15, 20 November 2010 (UTC) All ok. They together might make a better article thats all.Moxy (talk) 19:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC) Great Fires in Dawson City (3) Please see Talk:Dawson_City#Three_Great_Fires, re the List of fires page. I've added New West, Lillooet, St. John's, and Vancouver; lots more CanCon needed.....Skookum1 (talk) 07:15, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia:WikiProject Canada/Unreferenced BLPs The bot creating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Canada/Unreferenced_BLPs is ignoring the fact that Al Mackling is now referenced and does not have a Unreferenced BLP tag. Can anyone point me to who would be interested in this information? Many thanks, Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Since its a bot generated list, it may not change (be updated) until the next bot posting on the 24th of this month. Moxy (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC) It won't Dashbot runs once a day on these pages, and it looks like you made the change to that article about a half hour after it last ran. I'd expect that you will see that article drop off the list in about 4 hours. Cheers, Resolute 18:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC) OK. I see my problem, the top of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Canada/Unreferenced_BLPs says, "This page was last updated on 2010-November-23.", the bottom notes "This page was last modified on 22 November 2010 at 21:11." Different days, time zone related obviously. I looked only at the top of the page. Many thanks for all your help. Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 22:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC) 3RR on Victoria, British Columbia needs action I spent a few hours the other night building the ethnic groups table for that page, corresponding to similar on those for Vancouver, Abbotsford, Williams Lake, Prince George, and user:UrbanNerd has now three times reverted/deleted them, and has "instructed" me to observe WP:BRD. His rationale is that the table is "unneeded" and "enormous", and that minor ethnicities don't matter, but my problem is the resulting highlight given the visible minority table that remains, even though it includes groups who are of a lower percentage than teh groups he doesn't want to have in the article....There are more French (of all things) in Victoria than Chinese, but because of his insistence (now taking the deletion-axe to cited work that has precedence elsewhere) that ethnicity tables should not be included, we wind up not having an idea of the TRUE ethnic character of the city, including its larger-than-usual British but also other components; there's only 4.4% Chinese in Victoria, and 9% Scandinavians; but apparently this is "unneeded" and too cumbersome; similarly the Dutch at 4.5% and the French at 10.5% are "unneeded" in the article, similarly the Germans at 13.8%, and the Ukrainians 4.4%....yes, Victoria is 1% black, but isn't it equally important that it's 22.26% Irish (in 3rd place, and ahead of Canadian, which is unusual)....yet there's a lot of other more junk-like content on that page, which also takes up space - including about four or five panorama shots, that's far more "junk" in nature. Needless to say, as you can tell, the bias against showing ethnicity tables and emphasizing visible minority tables is really grating to me. I remember, also, the separate Demographics of Abbotsford article, now submerged back into the city article as Abbotsford, British Columbia#Demographics. Perhaps the ethnicity table there has been "pruned", or maybe even deleted by another "bold" editor who believes in junking cited information because he finds it obtrusive; hell, I wish I could junk all the obtrusive information and "junk articles" I find constantly. He's reverted my work three times now, doesn't seem to give a fig for what I had to say about it, and has thrown a guideline at me to justify his deletion of what (to me) is necessary material. I do not like having my inheritance show up in an article only as "not a visible minority" (for the record, I'm Norwegian, French-from-France, Irish, English and probably a few other things). Victoria's Britishness, and its very multi-ethnic flavour, is represented statistically only by an ethnicity table; whereas featuring groups that are much smaller than the city's major ethnicity simply because they have a skin colour is noxious.....then lecturing ME about "being bold" LOLSkookum1 (talk) 05:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC) So, turns out the Abbotsford article is missing the ethnicity table I'd made for the Demographics page, and the text compresses things, talking about people by race, though at least mentioning the Dutch and Germans in passing; though dwelling on matters to do with smaller groups "because they are visible". I'm pretty sickened by this; it's bad enough the federal government is cancelling the long form, where the ethnicity tables come from, there's no reason for Wikipedia to join them in junking the data simply because someone else thinks visible minorities are more important to mention...this does a disservice to ALL Canadians, and puts the lie to the myths about multiculturalism being rooted in the country's multiethnic character; instead, Wikipedia articles increasingly talk about race, and focus on that....Skookum1 (talk) 05:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC) I went back to pick up a factoid from the table and discovered that UrbanNerd's most recent re-deletion of the ethnicity table also wound up making the whole rest of the page after the Visible Minority table part of that table; so this wasn't a 3RR on my part, I'm repairing damage - if he's so insistent it should come out he should try using something else than a chainsaw. I think the solution here is a separate Victoria demograhpics article, though it should probably be for Greater Victoria, not Victoria city along...I continue to be irked that anyone would think that ethnicity data in a province BUILT on a diverse range of ethnicities, including a diverse range of European ethnicities, is unimportant and should be deleted....Skookum1 (talk) 06:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read LOL :) jokes. I do have to say the chart is mighty big and very very detailed. Not sure if i have ever seen one that detailed before. Not sure people will like it, but i do think its very very informative. Moxy (talk) 06:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia:Short attention span and Wikipedia:Learn to read complicated stuff, it's good for you. The original tables for Vancouver and Abbotsford had such detail, I think the Vancouver one may be truncated at 20 or 25 ethnicities, not sure; so far Williams Lake's is unmarred/unattacked. All ethnicity figures are inexact and projections only, based on the 10% sample of the long form....so all those saying "10" for the number of persons actually means only one person who filled out the long form was of that ethnicity; needless to say this doesn't pick up any neighbourhood or family concentrations, since the long forms are evenly geographically distributed. In the case of "obscure" ethnicities like the Bosnians and Icelanders, that they are present at all is notable, likewise the Tigreans; Icelanders are so few in Canada (or anywhere) that any number of them in three figures constitutes a notable concentration (Blaine, which has the largest Icelandic population in the US, has 150). In cases like Kitimat, where the Portuguese rank sixth and form a notable local community, listing the zero percentages for blacks and filipinos without mentioning the Portuguese is....well, unacceptable; I found it interesting looking up Trail's and Revelstoke's, both with notable Italian histories, to not have the Italians show up as significant, relative to other etchnities; as expected, throughout the Kootenays, Russians rank very high because of the Doukhobor presence; and everywhere in BC the Germans, followed by the Ukrainians, are notable non-British presences; similarly the Scandinavians though when you "cut them all up" by particular nationality (including Faroe Islander) their numbers don't seem so impressive; except that they're higher than in Eastern Canada proportion-wise. And like I said, that Victoria's French population is that large is quite remarkable, relative to other similar ethnic tables for other towns/cities in BC. Trim it down, maybe, but to see it deleted for spurious, kinda harsh, reasons, just ain't right.Skookum1 (talk) 07:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC) The chart is ridiculously long, and was reverted. User:Skookum1 re added it and refuses to follow BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Other demographics articles like Demographics of Toronto , Demographics of Montreal, Demographics of Ottawa, use only the top few ethnicities and lable all the other 150+ races as "other". And remember these are articles ON demographics solely, not city articles. The list is way too big, and if skookum refuses to BRD and continues to openly attack me on the talk page, and 3RR I will be forced to report him. UrbanNerd (talk) 20:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC) It was YOU who reverted my work three times, and on your lasst reversion (a 3RR) you damaged the rest of the page, such that all following content was (ironically enough) made into part of the Visible Minorities table. As for "bold, revert, discuss", if that rule were in force then all kinds of stupid excess I see unfolding, and unchallenged - and uncited - on various pages. As for openly attacking you, if that's what's called laying out the reasons for why what you did was wrong, and why ethnicity tables BELONG as part of any city profile (instead of just the ongoing emphasis on race).....if that's attacking you, then you should give your head a shake about your aggressive deletion of the CITED table I made up, which as I said (and you continue to ignore) is present on other city pages; shortening it would have been one thing, but you just wantonly deleted it and gave me a "hang on there, fella" edit comment and talked to me like I was a newbie. People citing guidelines as clubs gets to be a tiresome game; I'm talking VALID CONTENT, you're talking "space"....yet you know what: Jimmy Wales himself, turns out, told the writers of cold and templates and stuff not to worry about length or size, write as if there was endless storage space; that apparently doesn't apply to content, where some people keep on wanting to keep things down to soundbite length, or selectively picking WHICH data is more important than OTHER data based on .... well, based on "space".....yet did you take issue with the number of space-consuming panoramas on that page? What about other stuff that takes up space? Directory listings of radio stations and TV channels? Bulky, visually-grabbing climate tables? Trivia? I repeat, it's you who attacked me; if you think a long explanation of why you were wrong is an "attack" that's pretty funny.....there are those around here who know I've been holding my tongue, and trying - yes, trying to be polite. But I am long winded; some people see that as a rant, or as with you, an attack. Well, if you don't want someone to hit back, try not hitting them FIRST.Skookum1 (talk) 01:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Agreed, the full table was excessively long. A better version would be to show the top 10 or so, with everything else compressed into "other". PKT(alk) 21:16, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Note: This is the diff and section under discussion. (Please link to diffs, when discussing specific content, otherwise every discussion-participant has to research it themselves. Thanks!) -- Quiddity (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Comment: The table is large, but it could be collapsed, like such data is in many other articles, eg Civilization (series), 82nd Academy Awards, and Google Street View. -- Quiddity (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC) A collapsed table would be fine, of course; e.g. as templates like {{Kootenay Lake steamboats}} can be....the same should be done to the Visibly Minority table. The reason I didn't truncate the table with "Other" was because, so far as I understand, doing that departs from the source, in teh same way that not using StatsCan's terminology in the Visible Minority tables is a no-no, and otherwise not reporting the source accurately, or taking a point of interpretation of the data (such a a cut-off point for exclusion) is effectively original research. Also, some of the lesser-numbered ethnicities, as I've mentioned about the Icelanders, are so rare to start with that any concentration into the three figures is notable...that could be dealt with in the text perhaps, as also with mention of the Tigreans, which no dobut there may be some press copy as to where there's a relative colony of them there, respective of other less-numerous ethnicities. NOT representing these peop[le except by racial group is not acceptable; and of course there's more ethnicities, vastly more, than the five or six groups the government and academia have tried to reduce us all to statistically. but because such information is long and detailed - that's no reason at all to delete it; all the more reason to find a way to include it (and not attack those who contributed it).Skookum1 (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC) A collapsable list is a great idea and may alleviate the problem. And Skookum please grow up, by the looks of it you're a grown man, please start acting like one. UrbanNerd (talk) 17:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Hm, perhaps you should take your own advice - that's an overt personal attack now, though no less grating than the other comments you've made in support of your aggressive - and wrong - deletion.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC) UrbanNerd, while it's true that Skookum can come off a bit angry sometimes, there's a huge difference between being a bit hot-headed and "acting like a child"; for one thing, no matter how angry he gets I have never seen Skookum attack the person he's talking to the way you just did. That comment was inappropriate, so as an administrator I need to remind you that Wikipedia has a rule about civility. Things can get pretty heated around here, yes — but there are ways to disagree on an issue without insulting the person you're disagreeing with. HTH, HAND. Bearcat (talk) 19:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Bearcat, would you please restore that table and add collapsibility? I would have done so, had I known how....the remaining Visible Minority table had major problems, including percentages which were for hte CRD, not the City of Victoria, and omitted a number of groups (totallying 3.9% of teh city's population, and also needlessly included the percentages in BC). Other pages where similar deletions of ethnicity tables have taken place, such as on Abbotsford's, should also be restored using the "collapsed" function....I know how to do it for templates but not for "class=wikitable".Skookum1 (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure about using collapsible tables in articlespace, I think it may contravene our WP:ACCESSIBILITY guideline. Can the table have an arbitrary cutoff, say 3%? There is actually a long overdue discussion needed here on the broader issue of ethnicity data from the Canadian census, what with how it adds up to well over 100% and only some communities have the detailed profiles. Franamax (talk) 22:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC) To be honest, I don't know how to make a template like that collapsible. I know how to do it in navboxes, but not in tables. Bearcat (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC) To collapse a table, just add the keywords to the table class: class="wikitable sortable collapsible collapsed" Still the potential problem with accessibility though. Franamax (talk) 22:59, 29 November 2010 (UTC) [undent] What about using <small> for less space (as I do for coords on list-type sections/pages? But given it's not just ethnicity tables, but things like economic sector/income, age strata, other demographic realities other than race/ethnicity, and this being a capital city, I think there's a good case for Demographics of Victoria, British Columbia or Demographics of Greater Victoria, British Columbia (since "Demographics of Victoria" may exist for Australia...). As for places that profiles aren't available, that's "publicly" available; detailed community-by-community breakdowns are available but only on CD....I've looked through the early hand-written censuses, also, for certain towns; such ethnic breakdowns can be traced all the way back, just like bushels of wheat produced, cattle slaughtered etc.....the rider to all this is that the Harper government has done away with the etchnicity questions, along with the rest of the long form, as of the next census.....Skookum1 (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC) For other reasons was looking at the San Francisco Bay Area article - its Demographic section is typical of US city/place articles, and also of those from the UK and Australia and elsewhere. There are some topical demographic pages in the US (SFAIK ethnic data is not easily recoverable from the US census....) but overeall they always discuss age strata, income strata, fields of employment, I think birth/death rate and so on. "Demographics" isn't just about ethnic/racial matters. I've long wanted Canadian articles to have "richer" demographics, by way of more meaningful content (this includes things like trade/productivity figures, which STatsCan and the BC Ministry of Economic Development both track, among others including hte Conference Board of Canada). So if the demoagraphics section is "too long" already, given all the rest that can and should be added, it seems in the case of most major cities, at least, that a separate, fully-written demographics page be created, with only condensed information on the main city page. The data's out there; but to have someone delete it no sooner than it's tableized, then have to argue about it for four days back into existence.....is Wikipedia about content, or brevity?Skookum1 (talk) 04:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC) I've tried to re-add the table, using the collapse code given above by Franamax, and it's not working - nor is the sortability working - see Victoria,_British_Columbia#Ethnic_origins and this insert edit. Once it's figured out, re-completing the truncated Vancouver table, restoring Abbotsford's table, collapsing Williams Lake's etc, and being able to add to other articles is on the order paper.....for now the table is uncollapsed, but not by intent; if someone would please properly collapse it instead of wantonly deleting it again, taht would be very.....Wikipediean of you.Skookum1 (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC) OK, it works, and my edit was the last....maybe I was looking at a browser-cache copy of it once I'd added it or something like that.Skookum1 (talk) 00:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC) Last North American veterans by war listed at Redirects for discussion An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Last North American veterans by war. Since you had some involvement with the Last North American veterans by war redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). 76.66.194.212 (talk) 07:02, 26 November 2010 (UTC) "harmonizing RD naming conventions" I've tried to reverse some these name changes, but apparently I can't because an admin made them....the fact of the matter is, whether article titles or category titles, that the regional districts THEMSELVES, and ALL BC government pages (including BCGNIS), AND all federal sites (including StatsCan and CGNDB) use the hyphen, and NOT a dash. The hyphen is readily citable, and it's not like there's not an "existing standard" before Wikipedians got to gether to decide on a new one and impose it. It's not just the dash - on some there's space-dash-space. It's like Elections BC using only a hyphen in compound names - we adopted that because it's the existing usage, similarly the dash is used by Elections Canada so it's on federal-riding articles. Changing the hyphen to a dash is like changing the spelling, like adding accents that aren't there. These naming conventions were around a lot longer than Wikipedia has been (since RDs were first founded in 1966-1967), and there's no way that a cavalier attitude by people wanting to "standardize Wikipedia's appearance", as was one rationale given to me, is sufficient reason to override existing spelling conventions and normal usages. They also p' me off because they're not typable, and need copy-pasting to use (or extra fiddling with &mdash. ALL OF THESE, including the category names, need to be changed back to what the reigonal districts themselves use, AND StatsCan AND BCGNIS and the UBCM etc etc etc. Wikipedia does not have a right to create/enforce new spelling/conventions on places/topics that have their own.Skookum1 (talk) 21:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC) I just discovered Tatshenshini–Alsek Provincial Park which similarly has supplanted a "wiki standardization" instead of using the punctuation/spelling of the source, which is BC Parks and BCGNIS, and both of which use a hyphen ONLY. I really wish "you people" would stop fussing with "standardizing Wikipedia's appearance" and actually pay attention to how English is actually used, rather than imposing new standards created by ad hoc committees of people who don't really know about the subject matter, and evidently don't care about what the source-usages are. The regional districts, and it seems the provincial parks, should observe what is used in BC, by BC governents, organizations and bodies, rather than decide that "wikipedia standardization" trumps all else. Never mind that "wikipedia standardization" often means "more work for regular contributors", in this case copy-pasting article titles instead of just being able to type them. Wikipedia should reflect reality NOT dictate, or create it....Skookum1 (talk) 19:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC) Halifax FYI, the usage of Halifax is under discussion at Talk:Halifax, West Yorkshire (as neither are the Canadian city, should this be listed at the Canadian requested moves list?) 76.66.194.212 (talk) 05:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC) Places-cum-communities (dab issue) Continued from here. I'll continue this here because it's getting too lengthy for the noticeboard. The discussion on neighbourhood dabs was tangential to the one on unique placenames not taking dabs (which as I originally understood it was to only apply to major cities, now seems across-the-board). I'll see if I can remember who else was in the discussion...it's either in this talklpage's archives somewhere, or in one of the other related discussion boards or sub-WP discussion boards, and was over a year ago, maybe more like coming up on two. The idea is that there are places that are well-known by, and enjoy "most common use" as, their comma-province formations. That they happen to be in municipalities, some right from the start, or absorbed into municipalities as in the case of (very) many, and in some cases were actual separate municipalities....this is especially the case in the Lower Mainland, where what had been district municipalities, taking in a large group of diverse localities with unique identities, were turned into cities- as especially in the case of Abbotsford, which was formerly tiny Village of Abbotsford, the municipatliies of Sumas and Matsqui - each as big as Chilliwack or Langley in area, with Matsqui the most populous of the three, which were known as "MSA" and that's still in the name of the hospital there, I think, or at least in common reference to it. The three of them together, with Langley I htink, were the Central Fraser Valley Regional District. Upon amalgamation, areas which had been unincorporated, namely the southwestern spur of Sumas Mountain, which is where the new Sumas-Mission bypass is, and including Clayburn...Kinnaird may have been part of Sumas Municipality, I'm not sure about Clayburn but I think it was unincorporated; both were created as company towns. But it's not just them; Bradner, Mount Lehman, Clearbrook - all were, and still are, commonly referred to in comma-province formations. I looked at the Chilliwack category, where only Yarrow has comma-province (as it should), but constructions like "Sardis, Chilliwack" and "Rosedale, Chilliwack", just aren't right (this also relates to amalgamation as Rosedale and Sardis and Yarrow were distinct communities within the old District Municipality of Chilliwhack [sic]. But then there's Agassiz, which even when it was all there was, really, in the District of Kent, was always "Agassiz, British Columbia"; Harrison Mills is part f the district, which in recent years was extended eastward to inclue Ruby Creek, British Columbia. but "Kent", in that area, means (when not referring to the municipality as such), the area between Agassiz and Agassiz Mountain, i.e. Kent Prairie. So "Ruby Creek, Kent" isn't right. Similarly Laidlaw, now a part of Hope, should remain "Laidlaw, British Columbia", ditto "Haig, British Columbia" as opposed to "Haig, Hope". Haney, British Columbia vs Haney, Maple Ridge.....and Hammond (Port Hammond which doesn't need a dab), right on the border between the formerly very rural Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows municipalities, and pretty much the only "town" of any size in the area other than Haney, has always been "Hammond, British Columbia", or "Port Hammond, British Columbia". And in response to Hwy43, I'll try to get at that webmap but it would be very odd of Abbotsford didn't name Clayburn as an official neighbourhood, given its age and identity (read its article...and the BCGNIS background on it and Kilgard). There's a host of examples that come to mind where comma-province is common usage and long-standing identification of such places; Brackendale, Cloverdale, Tsawwassen, Fort Langley, Silverdale, Whalley ...even Deep Cove is not "Deep Cove, North Van", but still "Deep Cove, British Columbia"...and when there were former municipalities, as with Rutland and Okanagan Mission, they existed as separate places before being amalgamated into Kelowna - so "Rutland, Kelowna" just isn't right; it's an imposed, external paradigm, and not the local usage....I remember the policy discussion/explanation/decision, it's "back there" around here somewhere....and it makes sense. "Matsqui, Abbotsford" just ain't right, ditto "Clearbrook, Abbotsford", "Bradner, Abbotsford" and "Mount Lehman, Abbotsford" and all the rest; I've created Aberdeen's with ", Abbotsford" - I don't think it was ever a postal address, though it was s small separate community (just SE of Aldergrove)....though there is a municipality called Abbotsford, usage remains that Abbotsford means the old city core, Matsqui and Huntingdon are still separate communities from the old core village ("Matsqui" is much larger than Matsqui Village, still, and can refer to the whole of Hatzic Prairie and some of the slope facing it, likewise Clearbrook although there the line has always been blurry (because South Fraser Way was the municipal extension of Abbotsford's mini-urban core; the "urban" core of the old District of Matsqui was what's now called Matsqui Village, the downtown of Sumas, if there is one, and only of sorts, was Huntingdon (Sumas was very rural).....Webster's Corners is in the City of Maple Ridge; but it's caleld WEbster's Corners, British Columbia, likewise Whonnock, Albion etc. others however are "new" or "created" or recognized as "Silver Valley, Maple Ridge", for example; they're areas, not former identities/communities in the same way....Skookum1 (talk) 06:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC) Skookum1, I don't quite understand your choice of title for this discussion. Nonetheless, I think I may have found your previously recalled policy guidline. Were you recalling CANSTYLE's neighbourhoods/communities guideline (third paragraph in particular)? Hwy43 (talk) 06:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC) that would seem to be the passage, though it omits the common case in BC where numbers of self-standing communities formed many district municipalities (some having reached incorporation as cities - Surrey, Coquitlam, Abbotsford e.g. though still retaining distinct community-identities within them. Also places that had historical PO addresses, which may no longer be listed on the Canada Post link given in that paragraph, are generally included in BCGNIS descriptions, sometimes with a BCGNIS "dab" of "former post office"). Clayburn and Kilgard were, I think, company towns, also, as well as postal addresses....which may still "work" if mailed. It's different with newer neighbourhoods which have emerged since the city's formation, and also in areas which are notably urbanized and the old identity, if any is submerged; but that's definitely not the case with Bradner, Mount Lehman, Huntingdon, and in Chilliwack such as Rosedale or Sardis. I dno't have admin access to overrule and redirect these as they should be, otherwise I would have just done it (as I did for Rutland and Okanagan Mission and a few other places).Skookum1 (talk) 08:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Shorthand for "places that have independent identities and have only become neighbourhoods [of expanded cities/municipalities)". "Discrete communities" with clear separate histories, and long-standing "postal identities" separate from that of the district municipality (many of which have become cities since) they were absorbed into, or formed into. BCGNIS still distinguishes between "Abbotsford (community)" and "Abbotsford (city)", for example. I'm from Mission District, in Ruskin, went to school in Silverdale; both commmunities, like Stave Falls and Silverhill or Steelhead that may be "in Mission", meaning the municipality, but in any of them the question "are you going into Mission" means the old Mission City core. Ruskin has a ", British Columbia" dab because it's both in Maple Ridge and Mission, Hatzic is similarly astride the Mission border, or more like right up against it (since Hatzic Lake and Hatzic Prairie are somewhat distinct from it). Abbotsford is still Abbotsford within the City of Abbotsford, and any reference to Haney or Cloverdale or Clearbrook or Hammond/Port Hammond will, if referring to where it is, add ", British Columbia"; only rarely "in the Clearbrook neighbourhood of Abbotsford"...that's a non sequitur because, partly, "Abbotsford" still means the farther end of South Fraser Way, past Essendene and around the rail crossings.... It's different with Kitsilano and Grandview and so on within Vancouver, or neighbourhoods in definitely-urban/suburban areas....."Kitsilano, British Columbia" and "Grandview, British Columbia" don't work for that reason.Skookum1 (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Just to clarify the rule a bit, because I think some people may be misunderstanding it: the rule is not that a community inside a larger municipality must always be disambiguated as "Neighbourhood, City" instead of "Neighbourhood, Province"; instead, Skookum is correct that it's a matter of context and history. Our primary source for making the determination has traditionally been the Canada Post address database; a community that's recognized by them as a distinct mailing address can be at "Neighbourhood, Province" regardless of its own legal status. For example: I live in the Toronto neighbourhood of Cabbagetown, but my correct mailing address is "Toronto, ON" rather than "Cabbagetown, ON". However, there are other parts of Toronto (e.g. Willowdale) where the official mailing address is "Neighbourhood, ON" instead of "Toronto, ON". Now, to use some of the examples Skookum raised here, according to the Canada Post database, the Rosedale in Chilliwack has a mailing address of "Rosedale, BC" — so it should indeed be at the province-dabbed title instead of the city-dabbed one. Similarly, Mount Lehman, Clearbrook, Cloverdale and Sardis are recognized postal addresses as well, though Bradner's recognized mailing address is Abbotsford rather than Bradner, Haney's is Maple Ridge rather than Haney, and I wasn't able to make any determination at all for Huntingdon as it came up empty. I also want to clarify that there's no reason why we're permanently restricted only to Canada Post as a source for this kind of thing; if there are other reliable sources that can help to resolve any disagreement about whether to name a place "Neighbourhood, Province" or "Neighbourhood, City", then certainly they can be noted for discussion as well. But what is important is that we look to reliable and/or official sources for these things, rather than letting individual Wikipedians use "but this is what *I* call it" as a source — and we all need to understand that the existing rule is not that a community that's part of a larger city must always be disambiguated by city instead of province. There are some communities that are more correctly titled "Neighbourhood, Province", and some that are more correctly titled "Neighbourhood, City", and any individual city can have some of both — Skookum is correct that it all really depends on the individual situation. Although as an encyclopedia which requires verifiability in reliable sources, we can't use an individual editor's perception of what's seen as more idiomatic in everyday speech as our source; we need a recognized, objective, authoritative source which can clarify how the community is officially seen, which is why the Canada Post database was brought in. Bearcat (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Bradner's address may now be Abbotsford, following amalgamation/centralization, but see its BCGNIS about its long-standing postal-independnece; I don't know why Haney's doesn't but it's equivalent to Agassiz and Cloverdale re Kent and Surrey (at one time Cloverdale was the only real urban settlement in the then-District of Surrey, other than Brownsville (now Bridgeview), but that was more of an exurb of New WEst than it was a real town). A case-by-case basis is more relevant than postal addresses, as you observe, though it takes knowledge to know when e.g. Brackendale, British Columbia or [[Garibaldi Highalnds are OK, whereas Valleycliffe, Squamish is the way it is for other Squamish neighbourhoods. Valleycliffe is right in Squamish; at one time Garibaldi Highlands and Brackendale were outside its boundaries...and they're still separate communities/commercial foci....I'll make a list of things I know need changing "back", though some that didn't require admin assistance I've done already....Skookum1 (talk) 21:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Well, as an encyclopedia that's being constructed in the now, there are going to be some cases where what was true 100 years ago and what can be properly sourced as being true now are in conflict; there are several neighbourhoods in Toronto, too, which were once separate municipalities in their own rights but are more properly titled "Neighbourhood, Toronto" now. The rule also isn't that any place which has ever had its own post office always goes to "Neighbourhood, Province" regardless of which way it's seen today; the separate post office can serve as an explanation for why a neighbourhood might still be seen as comma-province instead of comma-city, but it doesn't determine that in the absence of sources which demonstrate that the neighbourhood is still seen as comma-province. What ultimately matters more than anything else is having actual sources that can be brought to bear. What's important is that we not be arbitrary about it, and look to real sources rather than getting into circular move wars based solely on individual users' perceptions — the question of whether it's "Bradner, British Columbia" or "Bradner, Abbotsford" is a matter of what verifiable and reliable sources you can add that speak to how it's seen today, not necessarily how it was seen 100 years ago. I'm not making a judgement one way or the other, because I'm not familiar enough with it to make that call — I'm just saying that one way or the other, we need a strong source. Canada Post isn't necessarily the only possible source, if you can provide a good source which demonstrates that "Bradner, British Columbia" is still considered more appropriate and correct in the November 30, 2010 here and now — but the fact that it had its own post office 100 years ago doesn't really demonstrate that. It's not that Canada Post trumps common usage just because it's Canada Post; it just trumps unsourced assertions. The gold standard on here isn't necessarily truth; it's verifiability in reliable sources. If you have reliable sources which demonstrate that Bradner is currently (i.e. today, not in 1912) seen as comma-province instead of comma-Abbotsford despite Canada Post's official designation, then by all means bring 'em on. And there are also likely to be some cases where a neighbourhood doesn't actually need (or isn't sourced enough to actually support) its own separate article anyway...but that's a separate discussion, obviously :-) Bearcat (talk) 22:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC) that would have only been since amalgamation - late 1980s or in the 1990s I think - before that Bradner was part of Matsqui, and it wasn't "Bradner, Matsqui" anymore than it would have been "Clearbrook, Matsqui" or "Huntingdon, Sumas". But also in the mainstream press and travel magazines, when Bradner is mentioned (it's famous for its flower fields, particular daffodils, and is featured in spring editions of the papers/news), it's always "Bradner, British Columbia". "Abbotsford", when not referring to the municipality, still refers to the area of the old Village of Abbotsford (even when used within the City of Abbotsford, which is utterly huge and also still dominantly rural outside the core and with many "discrete" communities.Skookum1 (talk) 23:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Hmm - article on Tienanmen re Vancouver I guess this could be in the Requests for Comment on the noticeboard, but there are issues here I'm just not certain what to do with; a SPA had tried to add this as an external link (rather than a see also) on Chinatown, Vancouver. I have to go to the gym, just found it and gave it a WP Canada and WP Poiltics template, will see what y'all have to say about it later....Skookum1 (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2010 (UTC) BC Liberal leadership race article I placed this on the "current events" section on the noticeboard and then went back to have a look at it; a lot of awkward formatting I haven't fixed yet; each candidate-section had a campaign-website link and not as refs; I didn't ilke the look/feel of the result so removed them; if any experienced editors think that shouldn't be and maybe those should be ext links or refs (instead of inline ext links) then by all means fix that....my reasoning is that eac h of the candidate's pages, and the party's page, already has that link; Wikipedia's aim should not serve as a directory for campaigns. Also, issues relating to each candidate, including criticisms of them in the press or from notable blogs, should be on this page; it shouldn't just be written by and for the Liberal leadership race folks.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC) List of BC ministries? "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive?" might be the best foreword to this....ministries change names and portfolios within them get shuffled so often that any such page, e.g. List of British Columbia government ministries would have to have a "current" section and "historical" section, and the latter would be quite large and, er, complicated, and would need to be almost a logic tree (as on New Westminster (electoral districts) or Kootenay (electoral districts). What used to be stand-alone ministries, e.g. the Minister of Mines, are now in combination portfolios, currently I think (as of the recent shuffle) "Ministry of Mines and Resources", as "Ministry of Energy" has been removed from what used to be Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources (and used to be Energy, Mines and Resources, well-known as "EMR" even after the addition of "Petroleum"). Many mines-related powers and policy directions now also appear to be with the Ministry of Natural Resource Operations, the controversial new mega-ministry. The old Ministry of Education has gone through various mutations; it was for a while Ministry of Education and Child Services, then "and Child Development". The Ministry of Highways is no more, it's now a Department of Highways and what's not in the private sector now (construction, maintenance etc) is part of some other ministry, not sure which. Anyway there's lots of politician articles which red-linked mininstry/minister titles so it would seem that a list page would help highlight which ones need doing; is the name I've suggested workable or could someone come up with something better?Skookum1 (talk) 01:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC) And should the subarticle titles be "British Columbia Ministry of X", "BC Ministry of X", or "Ministry of X (British Columbia)"?Skookum1 (talk) 02:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC) "Ministry of X (British Columbia)" would match WP's convention as far as I can tell. PKT(alk) 16:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC) OK, I'll try and get started on it soon; somewhere in a news article lately I saw a list of current post-shuffle ministries, and know some of the historical ones and can find others.Skookum1 (talk) 19:07, 4 December 2010 (UTC) Mandarin/pinyin on Cantonese-speaker articles I took the Mandarin and pinyin and other transliteration systems off the Jenny Kwan and Alexander Won Cumyow articles, as I see no point in giving spellings/pronunciations in a language neither of them spoke; it's like, as I said in the edit notes, giving Russian characters or Hungarian-alphabet spellings. The Chinese characters remain. Providing the pinyin and other Mandarin-related versions is a bit standard in Wikipedia, but I see no reason why it should be the case for people who don't speak Mandarin, and whose names, if used in Chinese publications, appears in characters which can be pronounced as Cantonese.Skookum1 (talk) 19:07, 4 December 2010 (UTC) Cameron Bar Indian Reserve No. 13, pop. '0' This IR article and a few others have bugged me for a while, as being created seemingly at random; others are railway points such as Lucas, British Columbia and Taft, British Columbia, which I BCGNIS'd tonight. Another IR that comes to mind is 105 Mile Post, which isn't near 100 Mile as you might think, but near Ashcroft; also '0'. Historically, who knows, and there may be a particular land history to this one. I've redlinked Cameron Bar as the source name, fairly obvious but it's not indepednently in BCGNIS as a landform; at some point List of bars and mine workings on the Fraser River is out there (a friend has published a paper and website which covers all mine workigns from about Texas Creek/Nesikep or Lytton all the way up to Big Bar, including photographs; I'll come back with the link, it's pretty amazing; also he shows hte distinction between Chinese and non-Chinese workings and knows the history of many of the claims. Cameron Bar could be named for any old Cameron, but it might well be Cariboo Cameron; other Cariboo names are linked to the same area, e.g. Van Winkle Creek and Van Winkle, British Columbia, near Barkerville, with Van Winkle Bar near Lytton, which in turn was named for a Van Winkle Bar somewhere in Cailfornia; and the guy's name actually was Van Winkle. Anyway, in some cases I've referred Indian Reserves in vast rural areas to the band article, e.g. in teh Chilcotin and Omineca-Nechako, but at other times to the nearest town, unless there's a reason the reserve should have its own separate article, as in the case of a very populated reserve like Lytton IR No. 1 or Mt Currie or the Westbank Reserve(s), Tspentinkum IR No. 9 (sp?) and 10, I think it is, which have high non-native populations (likewise Capilano IR No. 5, hwich includes Park Royal et al...). In this case the Fraser Canyon is a heavily-named strip of distinct localities; this isn't in Lytton, I'm thinking it's near Kanaka Bar or maybe Siska. But for now it's uninhabited, and it's in the "populated places" category, which just ain't right. BCGNIS/BC Names uses "locality" in many cases, I'm wondering if we shouldn't have Category:List of populated localities in British Columbia and Category:List of uninhabited localities in British Columbia - there are surprisingly many, from Hells Gate to Metsantan (look that up in BCGNIS, it's also called Caribou Hide), and Taku; of course related to ghost town categories, but not the same thing. Many IRs are also hunting camps or fishing locations/camps, some of course are cemeteries; I create those separately as redirects to wherever they're going (unless they have a reason to stand alone) and place them in the Cemeteries in BC category; and not all cemetery IRs are only cemeteries; e.g. Fort George IR No. 1 in downtown Prince George is the old site of the HBC post Fort George, and though it's where the cemetery is, it was/is also a village (not so much anymore; and the adjoinning "skid" part of downtown - the skiddiest, that is - is also referred to as Fort George. The other Fort George IR, No. 1 vs the cemetery's 1A i think, is about 10 miles up the Fraser or Nechako somewhere; similarly of the Dog Creek IRs only one or two of them are actually in Dog Creek, British Columbia, which is also a non-native locality/ranch like so many. Cameron Bar No. 13 I'll try and merge to a nearby locality/populated place article....but maybe a good idea is a subcat of "uninhabited Indian Reserves" (my natural preference for the wording, being from country where that terminology is standard English and nobody's ever heard of the Wikipedia style guide....and likewise the localities hierarchy; there are hamlets and such too in BCGNIS; and they distinguish between community and settlement, and NB a PO listing might be for inhabitants of a vast region, as was the case with Bridge River (in BCGNIS, the PO article one of three listings). I've been trying to make sense of some things on List of settlements in British Columbia, but Lucas and Taft and such don't come up in BCGNIS in any way indicating people live there; and if you didn't know there's an icnreasing number of railway-point stubs, often in addition to another locality with the same name; I'm not sure why WP:TRAINS people think that's a good idea, but there's quite a number of them; see e.g. Category:CNR railway points.Skookum1 (talk) 07:00, 5 December 2010 (UTC) Created Hi, I have created the article "Canadian Forces Artist Program" How's? « CA » (talk) 17:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)