Talk:Common snapping turtle

Arbitrary section header

Somebody who knows more than I ought to discuss that they are a common host for leeches. 00:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)jsmerc01

Photographs

If this article includes all snapping turtles,

Theres some big ole boys down where i come from. We found one and named him rocky.

Clever. You know Rocky had two turtles he named Cuff and Link.--BillFlis 13:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Soup

I moved the soup links to the Turtle soup article, and added a link to the Turtle soup article here.--BillFlis 13:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Largest or not?

One editor had it as the largest fresh-water turtle in the world, but another demoted it to "one of the largest". Is it indeed the largest or not? Anybody got a citation?--BillFlis 01:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The Alligator Snapping Turtle (Macrochelys temminckii) is the largest freshwater turtle in North America. The worlds largest is still up for debate, but The Giant Softshell Turtle (Pelochelys bibroni) is at the top of the list. MFuture 02:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Chelydra?

i propose to merge this article with the Chelydra stub, in effect making this an entry on the Common Snapping Turtle (Chelydra serpentina, the only extant member of its genus). the Alligator Snapping Turtle has its own entry, and so any info here on that species is redundant anyway. if there are no major objections, i'll get underway within the next couple of weeks. (it really needs to be more encyclopedic, anyhoo.) Metanoid 05:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

No objection here! MFuture 23:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a good idea. There are other Chelydra species. There should be a separate page for the genus. Dger (talk) 23:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

It can't be merged as two other species, South American snapping turtle and Central American snapping turtle. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 23:41, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

subspecies

whoever added the notes on subspecies, thx! my 'net cnxn has been down for nearly a week. Metanoid 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

amputation of digits

please reference the tutles ability of amputate digits

I have found that anyone studying these creatures (e.g. Ministry of Natural Resources in Ontario Canada) will tell you the amputation of digits tales are myths. They can break skin but not much more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.78.127.33 (talk) 15:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

As a licensed wildlife rehabilitator I have taken in quite a few injured adult common snapping turtles. I've demonstrated on several occasions, using an appropriate sized stick, the crushing strength in the bite of these animals. This, combined with the slicing edges of the mouth can easily do sufficient damage to a finger or toe to completely destroy if not sever it.CharmsDad (talk) 09:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

The claim that C.serp. can sever fingers in one bite is not supported to my knowledge (I am a grad student working on STs - have handled hundreds). Most (even large males) cannot break a pencil. I have seen (and know of other instances) bites from large STs - lacerations occurred but no serious injuries. No doubt injuries might occur in severe bite but severed digits extremely unlikely. Matt Keevil (talk) 17:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Life span

I think this section needs to be verified. I've heard of snappers living over a century. Recently, a documentary said they were finding snappers with musketballs in their shells from the Civil War. -- VegitaU 05:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

from a very brief google search, that claim seems to be floating around about an alligator snapper, but not the common (C. serpentina) Metanoid (talk, email) 19:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

True dat. I didn't realize there was another species. That's the one they featured on Dirty Jobs. -- VegitaU 22:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

further improvements

anyone want to start on the "In captivity" section? i'd like to keep it, having briefly cared for a snapper myself; but it really needs to be better cited than it is at present. Metanoid (talk, email) 02:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

me again. pretty good (!!well-referenced!!) pieces on chelydrids (esp. Chelydra)at darren naish's Tet Zoo blog. here's some links if anyone would like to check 'em out:

http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/02/they-bite-they-grow-to-huge-sizes-they.html http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/02/snapping-turtles-part-ii.html http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/05/snapping-turtles-part-iii-bite-lunge.html

Metanoid (talk, email) 02:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The method described for lifting is appropriate for the alligator snapper but not the common snapper. These turtles can pull their heads in far enough and their necks are flexible enough that grabbing the shell behind the head is a guarantee of being bitten. The proper way to lift the common snapping turtle is by grabbing the shell with both hands above and slightly forward of the back legs. Curling your hands in far enough will prevent the claws of the rear feet from being able to push your hands off. If the animal's shell is fractured lifting by the shell is usually not appropriate. In such cases a sheet or blanket can be used to to lift the animal safely. Avoid netting since it tends to tangle and catch in claws and be difficult to remove.CharmsDad (talk) 09:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

One of the external pages referenced at the end of this article (www.chelydra.org) has a description, with pictures, of the proper way to handle Common Snapping Turtles at http://www.chelydra.org/snapping_turtle_handling.html. In my experience, that site is a reliable source for information about turtles which is both accurate and responsible.CharmsDad (talk) 17:12, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Red List status incorrect

This species has not been assessed, and therefore the RL status in the taxobox should not say "VU". It is the Central American species/subspecies C. rossignoni (http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/63660/summ) that is listed as Vulnerable. Will R Turner (talk) 11:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. - UtherSRG (talk) 05:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Should they stay or go?

Last summer I purchased a home with about a 1 acre 15 foot deep pond, here in middle Tennessee. The previous owners and I both have been removing common snappers by either live trap and release or shooting. I thinking of adding some fish and am questioning whether to leave the turtles or continue to remove them. Any help or advise would be appreciated.

Also this article about the turtles rarely basking is not all true here. I see the turtles floating all the time in the sun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.120.239 (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Snapping turtles will take out fish as will some other turtle species (depending on the size and type of fish). While you may be able to trap some, the only way to completely remove the snapping turtles is by draining the pond. Snapping turtles do not generally bask or sit at the top of the water. There are quite a few aquatic turtles native to Tennessee and I suspect you have other species present in your pond. It is quite common to have multiple species in any aquatic environment.CharmsDad (talk) 09:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

food for snapers

the common snaper will eat almost anything and loves: grass hopers(with there legs off), turtle pelets,lettus,fish flakes,raw beef,cooked eggs,cut leches,and minos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.144.109 (talk) 23:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Captivity Section flow

This section ends with a warning not to engage a snapper and drag it around while it bites on a stick. Might be good advice but has nothing to do with captivity. Couldn't find anywhere else it should go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 6StringJazzer (talk • contribs) 03:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Predation by Great Blue Heron

User [Agamemnus] has removed the picture Image:GreatBlueHeroneatingturtle08.jpg from the gallery at the bottom with the justification for the removal being that it has nothing to do with anatomy. I disagree with that argument and have reinstated the image. There is a lot more to Snapping Turtles than just their anatomy, including their ecological interactions. I think that the picture is interesting and helps to illustrate the high predation rate experienced by hatchling turtles which is a key force shaping their entire life history strategy. [Agamemnus], please feel free to discuss this issue here. Matt Keevil (talk) 07:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

A high predation rate is not illustrated by this sad picture; it just shows a blue heron eating it. It does not illustrate how many blue herons eat it. (and I don't really think the predation rate of young snappers by blue herons is that high anyway -- most snappers just don't find any food, or their eggs are eaten, etc.) It's an unusual and cruel picture, especially for someone wanting to read about snapping turtles e.g. to help guide their pet care, etc. --Agamemnus (talk) 19:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that the pet care section should be included in wildlife articles at all, personally, and it is generally frowned upon for wikipedia articles to be instructional. Apparently I have a different view of the purpose of this article. I am hopeful that I can find time to seriously improve this article. Anyway, starvation is not usually a major factor in turtle hatchling mortality, most are thought to be killed by predators including wading predatory birds such as blue herons. While I appreciate that you empathize with baby turtles, I certainly do as well, I don't feel that it justifies censoring the image from the article. Matt Keevil (talk) 20:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not like the article is suggesting what kind of pellets to use. "censoring" is not what I would call removing that image from the article... The image is freely available at the Wikimedia Commons. It's not my empathizing with baby turtles that makes me want to remove the article, but that it simply does not add to the article and makes it unpleasant to view for Wikipedia users. I have not yet seen any other article about any other animal where the subject is eaten.--Agamemnus (talk) 22:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

So... in summary, my feeling is that it is disgusting and adds nothing to the article, but only takes away. :/ Comments, please? --Agamemnus (talk) 07:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Agamemnus, I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to respond to this, since the only argument you advance for removing the picture from the bottom gallery is that it is "disgusting". How can anyone rebut your personal feeling of disgust (and why should they have to)? There is nothing shocking or atypical about the image, and there is no blood or gore. I gave several arguments for keeping the image in the article including the fact that a hatchling snapping turtle being predated is a) entirely typical of the fate of most young juvenile snapping turtles, and b) this fact is important for the entire life history strategy of turtles in general and snapping turtles particularly. Therefore it is entirely relevant. I said that you censored the image from the article; I never stated or implied that it was globally censored. The reason I chose the word censor is because it most accurately describes my interpretation of your action and stated rationale. I provided reasons why the image is illustrative and consistent with the topic, reasons which you never refuted, and since your stated reasons for removing it is your own personal distaste, I would say that is typical censorship, albeit on a local scale. I suppose a picture of a snapping turtle about to eat another animal would also be removed, as would pictures of dozens of leeches parasitising a snapping turtle (also the rule rather than the exception), so that the entire spectrum of trophic interactions (except perhaps herbivory) that characterizes snapping turtle ecology is off limits for photographic representation. Oh well, it is not worth an edit war, so I suppose you win. Matt Keevil (talk) 07:36, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Matt. Great Blue Herons are beautiful birds and need to feed to stay alive. Even if they were the ugliest aninmals in earth they still need to feed and progagate their species. Small turtles are well known as a food source for various birds. It may not look pleasant to a human eye but to a bird's eye it is normal and natural to capture various creatures for consumption and life. I congratulate the photographer for capturing such a difficult image. Dger (talk) 16:09, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, It's always nice to have an image of a predator (and to leave out 'how to-ish' sections such as pet care). We should consider ourselves lucky to have an image of a heron eating the exact species of turtle this article is talking about.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there is no consensus, so I am reverting. The fact remains that despite whether this does happen or not, it does not prove anything other than a heron about to eat a turtle, and it is not appropriate within the context of both the other images displayed and as a visual aid in and of itself -- I don't see such images in other articles about wildlife.

If you claim it is illustrative, I would at least like to see proof that snappers are very often eaten by blue herons, and where it somehow adds to any actual text in the article, and how it is not an outlier amongst any other similar articles about wildlife.

If you wish to create a common snapping turtle predation article with links to research, then it would be appropriate to show a variety of pictures of snappers eating other things and other things eating snappers.--Agamemnus (talk) 00:13, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

In fact, there is nothing at all in the article about predation by blue herons...--Agamemnus (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Nothing is needed, the picture tells a thousand words. The picture is evidence that this does occur. The reason there are not many such images is simply because they are very difficult to obtain--another reason the image should stay. I photograph birds daily and have only a handful of rather poor images where a bird has prey in its mouth. The photographer should be congratulated rather than censored. Dger (talk) 01:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

A picture tells a thousand words, but it does not tell whatever you want it to tell. Furthermore, I never said "this does not occur". The picture does not say that this occurs often, nor does it inform the article. You can congratulate the photographer, if you wish. Again, please respond in terms of my objections instead of with rhetoric and misleading undo summaries.--Agamemnus (talk) 10:26, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to be blunt but your arguments have little merit. In the animal world there is nothing inherently "cruel" or "sad" about a heron eating a turtle. If we anthropomorphize on the bird side you could argue it is a delightful picture of a heron feeding itself. This picture shows the order of things in the natural world. Large eats small. Why should it matter whether this happens frequently or not. It did happen and the picture is evidence.

Your next argument has to do with pet care but Wikipedia is explicitly not a how-to-do reference. I am not the only one who has dismissed your arguments. In fact, the "vote" seems to be 4 in favour of the picture and one against. (I include the person who originally placed the picture although I don't want to waste time determining who it was.) Dger (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

PS. Regarding pet care, these animals should never become pets. That is another form of predation and is cruel. Dger (talk) 21:53, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Arguement about the inclusion of this image has gone on for long enough. To think a person uploaded that image to commons only to have it never used because it's "cruel." What about this image: File:Rabbit roadkill.JPG? Is this not allowed in roadkill?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:21, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

There is no consensus. Wikipedia is not a democracy, you did not address my points, and I will continue to revert your edits until we reach consensus.

"Sorry to be blunt but your arguments have little merit. In the animal world there is nothing inherently "cruel" or "sad" about a heron eating a turtle. If we anthropomorphize on the bird side you could argue it is a delightful picture of a heron feeding itself. This picture shows the order of things in the natural world. Large eats small. Why should it matter whether this happens frequently or not. It did happen and the picture is evidence."

It is not a question of whether it is cruel or sad in the animal world. It's not a question of anthropomorphism, either. It's a question of whether this image is appropriate for an article about snappers. I don't think it is, because Wikipedia is about informing users, not about sharing random photos or shocking users' sensibilities. Yes, I think this image would shock most people, and it does not help in any way to inform the article. No, I don't think roadkill is appropriate in an article about rabbits, either. If you would like to show the "order of things in the natural world", write an article about predation.

Also: I said that a comma should not come before "however", not after. I never argued that a comma should never come after "however". (unless it's the last word of a sentence)

ALSO (to Dger): "PS. Regarding pet care, these animals should never become pets. That is another form of predation and is "cruel" That is a bit of a personal attack, now, and incredibly misguided. A common snapper turtle will live longer and have a better life in the care of someone who is devoted to its upkeep, just like any other pet. It is not dangerous (unless you'd like to offer proof), and is decently intelligent, as far as reptiles go. I potty-trained mine, for example.

--Agamemnus (talk) 09:16, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Nothing personal intended. I have no problem with turtles as pets unless they are taken from the wild. That to me is inappropriate. As far as I know there are no pet shops in Canada or the USA that can sell snapping turtles. Most pet shops sell only red sliders. Dger (talk) 21:08, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of that, you never considered that snappers drifting in to residential driveways might not be in the wild?--Agamemnus (talk) 22:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

You're right, the picture does not inform the article.....that's impossible. Listen, the reason for including this image is not for shock or awe or whatever other distorted reason you can think of. It's inclusion is appropriate (by no means critical, but appropriate nonetheless) because it exemplifies that blue heron's prey on this animal in the wild, nothing more, nothing less. Granted, it would be nice to have some text on this in the body of the article, but until then (and after then), this image is still a great piece to this article.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 01:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Then put it in the BLUE HERON article. If you talk to a normal person, a "democratic" standard for inclusion, they will tell you it is sick to put this image in. --Agamemnus (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

No subspecies

There hasn't been any subspecies for a while. The South American snapping turtle and Central American snapping turtle are now separate species. See: Rhodin, Anders G.J.; van Dijk, Peter Paul; Inverson, John B.; Shaffer, H. Bradley (2010-12-14). "Turtles of the world, 2010 update: Annotated checklist of taxonomy, synonymy, distribution and conservation status". Chelonian Research Monographs. 5: 000.xx. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2010-12-15.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 00:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Taxonomy has been updated. Dger (talk) 02:03, 24 January 2011 (UTC)