Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts

UFC / WEC Bantamweight merger in List of UFC champions#Bantamweight Championship

This dispute (Talk:List of UFC champions#BW Champion) needs a little help with the decision. Should the championship be marked as if it was won at WEC 53 or should it be marked as if the fight was only for the WEC belt and he was later promoted to a UFC champion.

So should the table look like this:

No.	Name	Date	Location	Defenses
1	Dominick Cruz (def. Scott Jorgensen)	December 16, 2010 (WEC 53)	Glendale, Arizona, US

or like this:

No.	Name	Date	Location	Defenses
1	Dominick Cruz (promoted to undisputed champion)	December 16, 2010

--Tuoppi gm (talk) 14:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it should be the first one, because Dominick Cruz fought for the inagural/vacant UFC Bantamweight Champion unlike Jose Aldo who was given his UFC Championship. Joe712 (talk) 20:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the first should be used.--Phospheros (talk) 10:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed on this page that Frankie Edgar only has 1 win against B.J. Penn listed, not two. He took the belt from Penn the first time and then won a title defense with Penn a second time before his title defense against Gray Maynard. This needs to be fixed and I'm not sure how to do so. (Meaning: I don't want to screw up where I should put that information) Also, I noticed some of the names you can click on to take you to their respective pages, and some you cannot. Not sure if this is by design or if it was just not caught. Again, I won't change it and let others decide what to do there. Just thought I'd point this stuff out.Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 20:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but Edgar's title defense against Penn is already listed. :P

I think the links for some names are missing by design, but could be added because WP:REPEATLINK allows for repeated links in tables. —LOL ^T/_C 20:30, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

My apologies. I guess I read it wrong somehow. Thanks for the prompt response. UPDATE: Oh, I see why it looks wrong. Underneath Frankie's name it should say: <def. B.J. Penn> and it doesn't. This is what I think I saw missing. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 21:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on the list of champions, but I think the "def." line underneath one's name is only supposed to exist for special cases like interim or vacant titles. —LOL ^T/_C 21:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Well then I get a gold star for epic fail then. Again, my apologies and thanks again for setting me straight. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 22:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Frankie Edgar's record

Where are we getting the amateur loss from? His amateur record at MixedMartialArts.com only has one fight, a TKO win. --Phospheros (talk) 13:49, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

If right now there are no sources to support that claim about a loss, remove it as it is unreferenced material in the biography of a living person. Jfgslo (talk) 16:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Alright I removed it.--Phospheros (talk) 16:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

MMA record table problems

I've been noticing recently that several editors like to put bouts in the record list before they are officially announced, for example, dos Santos vs. Velasquez. Since all fights not officially announced are speculation and rumor and, therefore, not encyclopedic, it is my opinion that it should be avoided altogether putting future fights until they are officially announced. With this in mind, I would like to change the "Record" section in this project to emphasize that future fights should not be added to the record until they are officially announced.

Another problem I've noticed is that Sherdog's record have a problem that is copy-pasted in several records: capitalization for non proper names, acronyms and initialisms. For example, Sherdog uses incorrectly "Submission (Shoulder Injury)" instead of "Submission (shoulder injury)" or "KO (Punch)" instead of "KO (punch)". The Wikipedia's Manual of Style for capital letters is quite clear that this is not accepted. I also want to add a text in the "Record" section to encourage editors to use the correct capitalization instead of copy-pasting the info from Sherdog.

Related to the previous point, several editors like to ignore the result stated in Sherdog's records without offering a reference to prove that the result in Sherdog is incorrect, or they simply don't like how the results are expressed in Sherdog. For example, with Mirko Filipović instead of "Submission (Punch)" editors insist on changing it to "Verbal Submission (Injury)", "Submission (Impaired Vision)" and even "TKO (Injury)". Once again, I want to add a text that specifically discourages editors from changing a result without backing it up with a reference.

I have also noticed that flag icons are abused in the record tables. As stated in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons), icons should not be overused, particularly not when the country is already mentioned in text. Just take a look at Mirko Filipović record table to see what I mean. I want to add a text in the "Record" section of this project where it is specifically stated that adding flag icons for anything different from opponents is forbidden, as well as changing the example record box to remove flag icons from the "Location" column.

And finally, I think it would be better to have a template for the record table instead of having to manually generate it because editors regularly break the format, add unnecessary parameters, change the order of columns and other things. Has anyone tried to create a template for this?

Please share your comments and thoughts about these issues that I see with records in MMA biographies. Jfgslo (talk) 15:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I decided to be bold and make changes to the record section to add additional instructions about how it should be used. Please check it out and share you comments to improve the text. Jfgslo (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Judging from this diff, Paralympiakos seems to have missed this section, so I'm copypasting one of his recent talk page comments[1] below. —LOL ^T/_C 19:58, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's not do this please. Even Sherdog has KO (Punches), for example. Using "(punches)" just looks ugly, so please quit it. It's clear that it's only you two who disagree with me and others. Paralympiakos (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

We're discussing a matter of style, so "Sherdog has KO (Punches)" doesn't support your case. Claiming that something "just looks ugly" is completely subjective and just as convincing as an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument. It's not clear that only us two who disagree; I think it's more accurate to say that too many users are accustomed to Sherdog's style even though in general, Wikipedia's MoS overrides others on Wikipedia articles. We can take it to WT:MOSCAPS if you'd like. —LOL ^T/_C 20:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

@Paralympiakos It's also clear that many editors simply ignore the manual of styles and guidelines. As LOL pointed out, your argument is merely an WP:IDONTLIKEIT instead of a valid reason why WP:CAPS, WP:ICON WP:MOS and other guidelines must be ignored. Your other argument is a logical fallacy (argumentum ad populum.) If a majority of editors do not use the correct style, that doesn't mean that it's appropriated for an encyclopedia or that it's the best way. If you don't like it, then go to the manual of style and give a good reason why it should be ignored. Jfgslo (talk) 22:05, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't care about any BS involved in stupid wikipedia "policies" and essays like IDONTLIKEIT. Frankly, it looks hideous and I don't care what a few people wrote with regards MOSCAPS and all the MOS nonsense. Stop changing it now, please. Do something normal like writing and contributing instead of getting involved in silly matters such as this. Paralympiakos (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not that simple, Paralympiakos. The Manual of Style rules aren't just there because someone was bored and wanted to boss others around. They have common sense reasons: for example we discourage the use of flag icons because images increase load time which can be significant for people on slow internet. (Remember dial-up? Lots of people still have it.) If you have a disagreement with MOS guidelines you can take it to WT:MOS, or if you disagree in particular with the way they are being interpreted here, you may open a request for comment. However, opposing guidelines simply because you believe they are "ugly" then being argumentative and borderline rude to others is not an mature way to conduct yourself. l'aquatique[talk] 00:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

To add to that, the MOS wasn't written by a "few" people. Just MOS:CAPS alone has been edited by 174 unique editors since it was forked half a decade ago, and WP:MOS has been edited by over 2,000 editors since its creation nine years ago.[2] Your persistence in arguing chiefly with personal opinion does not benefit this discussion, and your "I don't care" attitude opposes Wikipedia's fundamental model for editorial decision-making, WP:CONS, particularly when you are insulting them with terms such as "BS" and "stupid" against Wikipedia's code of conduct (WP:CIVIL). I would write more if so many articles weren't in such shambles in terms of style, as the MOS is part of WP:FACR. —LOL ^T/_C 01:21, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I am in favor of this new style due to reasons mentioned by Jfgslo and LOL. So far I see no reason why Paralympiakos' style should be favored instead. --Tuoppi gm (talk) 14:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Tuoppi. The MoS is broadly consensus-driven and its guidelines make sense. Not that it's particularly relevant, but I disagree with Paralympiakos' assertion that camel-case syntax is 'better looking' - if anything, I think it looks considerably worse than standard English syntax. The first letter of the term should be capitalised, and the rest should be lower-case as it would appear in most respectable sources. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm new to Wikipedia, but I am just now getting into making edits for MMA related articles. I was following Paralympiakos's style of MMA Records and updating other articles to reflect that style. Now I'm reading here that there are some issues with how it's being set up. I don't know all of the people involved in this, but it would be great if there were a page or somewhere where we could all get together and discuss what the MMA record box and records should look like and agree to it. Otherwise, contributers like myself will continually either follow outdated examples, or forever run into people who don't like the changes we're making. Believe it or not, some of us really think we're following a "set in stone" example of what things should look like when we make changes. I don't know if this kind of thing is achieveable, but there it is. I'm lost now in terms of how to update/maintain MMA records at this stage and don't really know who I should listen to regarding it. Sorry for the long rant, but I'm just looking for some sort of guidance regarding this. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 02:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

This is the page and section to discuss what the record box should look like. The problem here is that most of the editors here (myself included) agree that MOS:CAPS should be followed and Paralympiakos main argument against the consensus style is "he doesn't like it", which isn't a valid reason. We have a set of guidelines to refer to in this case (the MOS) and there is no reason not to follow them. ZephyrFox (talk) 02:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate the prompt response, being that I'm new here I suppose I'll perhaps wait until I see an example of what everyone is talking about in terms of changing the MMA Record box as I'm still a little confused about what's being argued here. (It looks like the argument is over capital letters or not and too many flag icons) Once we get this all ironed out, I'd love to see a small example of what people want to have done so that I can start changing record boxes to reflect that style. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 19:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the argument is mainly over capital letters, flag icons, and other stylistic details in record tables (not {{MMArecordbox}}); compare [3] and [4]. I appreciate your will to help standardize the tables.

Just a note to anybody who intends to do the same if the Manual of Style prevails: Jfgslo has helped me develop a couple of scripts to assist in changing tables in favour of the MoS. I intend to use them if the MoS prevails. Brief instructions for one of them are here. For the other, here is an example of how your skin.js should look. —LOL ^T/_C 20:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I haven't read the standard format for MMA records yet but there are a couple patterns I'm curious about: 1) For the location of where a fight takes place the flag icon AND the name of the country is on there. ex. Las Vegas, Nevada, United States. Doesn't the United States at the end seem redundant? Isn't that why the flag is there? I think it would be most ideal to use the flag icon of the country at first, then the city, then the state or province where applicable. Doesn't it make sense? 2) The flag icon fighters use to say where they're from... shouldn't it be where they're born? That's what is always used in the tale of the tape. It's very distracting to me when I see a guy like Krzysztof Soszynski with the Canadian flag just because he trains out of there or maybe currently lives there. I have plenty of other examples of this and some use where they're born, some use where they live now. It seems to me where they're born makes most sense. Thanks everyone.

Hey, thanks for joining the discussion. (1) I'm almost positive that country flags cannot replace words because that would pose a big problem when a bout takes place in a country whose flag isn't familiar to the reader. (2) Flags for birth place are strongly advised against. An argument can be found at WP:FLAGBIO; while they emphasize "a biographical article's introduction and/or infobox", the same argument can be applied to record tables. —LOL ^T/_C 23:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by user Eyriq86

User Eyriq86 keeps editing MMA records despite that I have already pointed out to him the appropriated Manual of Styles related to that. He simply ignores them and marks them as minor. I have already warned him three times and I was about to report him to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, but I may be overreacting. I would like to request that other editors verify his edits in the articles of Alistair Overeem, Kazushi Sakuraba, Junior dos Santos, Brandon Vera, Todd Duffee, Ricardo Arona and Georges St-Pierre. I'm under the impression that, although he appears to be trying to improve articles, he makes unreferenced changes, removes referenced text, ignores policies, guidelines and manual of styles, and also always marks his edits as minor without summary despite that they rarely are minor and several times they include the removal of some reference. I believe that he is not acting in good faith as he simply ignored the warnings and keeps doing changes the way he likes. I would like to read more opinions before I take further actions. Jfgslo (talk) 05:46, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on dealing with anti-MoS rebels, but it seems to me that you'd be justified in reporting the user to ANI. The user hasn't made a single edit on any talk page,[5] and I'd state this fact if you do report them. It doesn't appear that they've made any attempt to communicate with you or resolve the conflict. —LOL ^T/_C 06:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I have reported Eyriq86. But since his edits aren't technically vandalism and administrators have their hands full at the moment, could someone else revert his edits? I don't want to give the impression that this is something personal by being the only one reverting his edits. Jfgslo (talk) 22:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I've noticed that Eyriq86 is at it again. This time attacking Keith Jardine's page. Twice today I've had to undo changes made to Jardine's MMA record. One was by an anonymous IP address and the other was by Eyriq86. I suspect the anonymous IP was him also because the changes to the record were similar. Both times today, there was no explanation for the changes and no reason behind them other than, what I believe, to stir up trouble. Maybe Eyriq86 is just an individual looking to subvert the MMA Wikiproject? In any case, I think someone smarter than myself should probably start looking into an "RfA" (I think that's the proper term?) for this guy? I don't think he'll give up and quit on his own. Could use some input, please. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 20:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Sako Chivitchian/GA1

User:Paralympiakos nominated this article for GA, and I posted an initial review five days ago, and notified him. It still needs quite a bit of work. However, Paralympiakos has just one edit in the time since my review went up, so he may not be active right now. Ideally, he as nominator would be the one to respond to the review, but someone should, so I'm posting here to try to get someone to come answer the review. Green-eyed girl (Talk · Contribs) 21:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Template:The Ultimate Fighter 12 is broken

User Green-eyed girl pointed it out in her review of Sako Chivitchian's page. I believe it's because the name was changed from "Template:The Ultimate Fighter 12" to "Template:The Ultimate Fighter: Team GSP vs. Team Koscheck" --Phospheros (talk) 19:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah that was it, fixed. --Phospheros (talk) 00:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Gracie Barra

Hello wikipeople! Can someone who is more knowledgable about martial arts stuff take a look at this article? It was up for speedy deletion as spam, but the article is actually like four years old and was heavily edited relatively recently by someone with a COI. I have restored it to the pre-spam version but there's not much left and with my limited knowledge of martial arts and such, I'm not sure if this is really even notable. Thanks guys! l'aquatique[talk] 03:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

TUF 13 Articles

I was peeking in and noticed that there are two separate TUF 13 articles: The Ultimate Fighter: Team Lesnar vs. Team Dos Santos and The Ultimate Fighter 13. For those of you who are still actively involved in editing, someone may want to re-direct one to the other. --TreyGeek (talk) 20:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't the one to do it, but I just checked and both links now point to the same article, so I guess we can consider this closed. Thanks to whoever linked them.

Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 19:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Picture Out Of Place

Now I've only looked at recent UFC events, and UFC 1, but I can assume all the ones in between are messed up as well, the picture is on the left side and above everything else, also the TUF wikis are having the same issueTmt2393 14:28, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any pictures "on the left side and above everything else" in the UFC 1 article. Perhaps your browser is having issues? What are "TUF wikis"? —LOL ^T/_C 18:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

"TUF" is the abbreviation many MMA fans use for, "The Ultimate Fighter". I assume Tmt2393 was talking about those articles related to various "The Ultimate Fighter" seasons as well. Not for nothing, but I checked the UFC 1 article and also some of the "TUF wikis" and didn't see the same problem as Tmt2393. I have to conclude that LOL is correct and Tmt2393's browser might have been minimized or somehow distorted in such a way where the pictures appeared on the left side instead of the right. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) Dachknanddarice 02:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

List of MMA Wikiproject Guidelines and Rules

Hey everyone. I'm pretty new to this sort of thing, and have essentially just kept myself busy by changing MMA records to reflect a certain style (which has now become a bit of a debate, but that's not what this is about). I'd like to start taking on a more active role perhaps by expanding articles and maybe even creating a few. I've read the MMA Notability which is listed as a "guideline" to making articles regarding MMA. (I'd like a little more depth in that too, but I'll put my concerns on that talk page) What I'd like to hopefully see, being a new guy here, is a list of links to actual Wiki Rules that must be followed when it comes to MMA articles, as well as a list of links to actual Wiki Guidelines (Such as the MoS, MMANOT, etc. etc.) that we should be looking at following so that new people to the MMA Wikiproject will have a list of things to look into before making changes. The only reason I know about the MoS is simply because I've heard people mention it in regards to MMA. Is it possible for people who are more knowledgable about Wikipedia to add these links? I'm not talking about links to general Wiki rules regarding civility and such... I'm talking about links to rules and guidelines specifically geared toward the MMA Wikiproject. I'm also willing to create this list myself here on this article if anyone wants to give me some links to look at in regards to adding it. I appreciate your time, thanks for reading this giant wall of text. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 18:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Judging from this list, the only pages that appear to be worth checking out are Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/Event pages format and Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/quickbio (the latter is already linked from WP:MMA). —LOL ^T/_C 22:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh man, my apologies once again. I'm so new to this that I didn't know that page existed. I will be sure to look at those in detail before expanding or adding any articles. I appreciate you showing me this, and I hope we can keep this little section up so that other new folks can use this as a bit of a guide. Thanks again. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 22:27, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, you don't have to apologize for everything you don't know. You seem new, and we understand that. I'm just glad to have a new fellow showing enthusiasm in article maintenance according to consensus-driven styles and formats, because we could always use more. —LOL ^T/_C 23:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Self-promotion?

What do you think of the article about Kevin Howell and similar edits by its creator?--Razionale (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The sources are definitely insufficient to establish notability. victorybelt.com and fightzoneusa.com are affiliated with him, the "Orange County Judo Training Center" appears in no other Wikipedia articles, the "Kid Peligro" page only mentions Howell under a schedule, and the others are blogs (see WP:SPS) or other non-notable media. —LOL ^T/_C 17:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

What caught my interest in the connection to the article subject was this edit that I don't how how to deal with.--Razionale (talk) 17:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The addition is entirely unsourced, does not have a neutral POV and contains peacock terms, so I would be in favour of simply removing those sections. —LOL ^T/_C 19:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I have cut it down to this. Just go ahead if it's not enough.--Razionale (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

ShoMMA

This has come up on the ShoMMA discussion page and I figured I would bring it over here to get a consensus from the project. Strikeforce is currently at 15 events for this show and the page is getting crowded. Someone proposed individual pages for each show, which I agreed with. Basically, they are like Strikeforce's version of UFC's Ultimate Fight Nights and those get their own pages. Also, Showtime appears to have dropped the ShoMMA name and lists them on their website now as Strikeforce Challengers. I would be more than willing to do each individual page if the MMA project agrees it is worth doing. Udar55 (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the ShoMMA article is definitely becoming unwieldy, especially with the large amount of duplicated heading titles. The only thing I worry about is whether individual ShoMMA events are notable enough to have their own article, as Strikeforce still seems pretty far from being as big as the UFC. —LOL ^T/_C 14:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I think the shows should start getting their own pages. I'd like to make sure we don't forget to intersperse links to them from the other major Strikeforce events in the infobox for "previous and next events". Meaning, the UFC on Versus event links can be found in the info box in between UFC PPVs... I'd like to see the same thing (in date-correct chronological order) for the ShoMMA (Which we should rename, Strikeforce Challengers 1, 2, etc. etc.) events that happened in between major Strikeforce events. I'm willing to help Udar55, if he wants it, create these pages and make sure they link up properly with other Strikeforce events.

@LOL: Strikeforce is currently the number 2 MMA organization in North America, and with its co-promotion with Dream in Japan, makes it a well-known organization overseas as well. Considering they put on the most shows other than the UFC, I'd like to think that makes it notable. There are no reports of Strikeforce having financial issues like FEG has had with Dream and K-1, and there's no reason to believe Strikeforce is going away any time soon. There's lots of reasons to believe Strikeforce is notable enough to add their ShoMMA events as seperate articles, especially since they continue to put them on. Just my .02. Dachknanddarice (T‖C) 16:30, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I figure if smaller shows like Bellator, MFC and KSW can get individual events pages for their small shows that these should be okay. Thanks to everyone for the input. Udar55 (talk) 18:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Strikeforce: Feijao vs. Henderson disruptive edits

User:86.176.98.229 (talk | contribs) has been repeatedly changing the results of the main event from TKO to KO. Per our guidelines here, the results should be those listed at Sherdog: http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dan-Henderson-195 which is listed as a TKO. This is my first 'edit war' as they say and I'd like a little input on what the proper steps to take at this point would be. I thought about putting this up on a noticeboard but was also worried that doing so over the addition of one letter was a little silly. The articles in question are:

• Strikeforce: Feijao vs. Henderson
• Rafael Cavalcante
• Dan Henderson

If someone can go through and make sure my change to TKO was warranted I would appreciate it. Thanks! ZephyrFox (talk) 01:30, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, your change was warranted since most reliable sources state that as the official result. These type of edits are quite common. Several random editors tend to change results to how they see a fight, particularly in the following days after an MMA event. If editors do not add a source to back up the changes, you can basically treat their changes as vandalism, because they aren't adding sources to back up their claim. Whenever that happens, point them out to WP:V "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Since they rarely are regular editors, the easiest way is to ask other editors to help you out with those articles during a few days. If a particular IP editor keeps doing edits like that, you can use one of the templates from here on the editor's talk page depending on the offense and after several warnings you can take it to the noticeboard. If that happens with multiple IP editors on a single article or with multiple vandalism from a single IP, you can request protection for that page here. But it's normally unneeded, as regular editors will assist you and random IP editors will rarely keep their edits after a few days. Since this particular editor doesn't even try to back up his claims, I'd suggest you to warn him first with one of the templates if he keeps doing them. He probably is a fan that doesn't really have much experience editing. Jfgslo (talk) 04:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I requested temp semi-protection for all three pages. Rafael Cavalcante was protected but the other pages have not been approved or denied yet. As it stands, all three pages currently have incorrect information on them. I'm getting close to, if not already over 3RR so if someone could revert those changes, I would appreciate it. Additionally, User:Eyriq86 reverted all the results on Rafael Cavalcante back to caps. ZephyrFox (talk) 02:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)