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March 10

Grammar exam

Fill in the blank...   

example is.. You're or Your

       never going to bed so late again. 

FILL IN THE BLANK WITH THE CORRECT WORD (there will be a space where the word you choose will go)

asking..... answer is you're?

1) never going to bed so late again. a)You're b)Your

asking....answer is their

2) house is the nicest on the block. a)They're b)Their

asking....answer is its

3)The horse is wearing blue halter today. a)it's b)its

asking....answer is were and their

4)Those clients responsible for the return of vehicles back to the service department. a)was a)their b)were b)they're

asking....answer is Have you

5) ever seen a falling star? a)Did you b)Have you c)Do you Have you

Do you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanmorecroft (talk • contribs) 04:02, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

These are very basic English questions. Rather than us just telling you the answers, it would be better if you thought them through and tried to provide a rationale. Then we can elaborate if you make an error. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The answers that you have given above are correct. Next time (as others have said), try to answer all of them yourself, then ask us about particular points that you do not understand. Also, it helps if you sign your posts by putting ~~~~ at the end of your questions. Lesgles (talk) 16:08, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Are the sentences below complete sentences or incomplete sentences?

write COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE for the following ... question 1, 2, and 3

1)A hysterectomy incision.

2)The patient was started on solid food on the second day after surgery.

answer is incomplete

3)Ultrasound during this pregnancy.

See Common Errors in English Usage. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:25, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Is this a fragment, a run on or a correct sentence?

asks...........

I have listed three sentences below and need to know if number one is a fragment, run on or complete setence, if number two is a fragment, run on or complete setence and if number three is either a fragment, run on or complete setence

1) Surgery yesterday.

a)fragment b)run on c)complete

2) Her pain was evident on examination, the medication did not help her pain management.

a)fragment b)run on c)correct

3) Her pupils were reactive to light.

a)fragment b)run on c)correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanmorecroft (talk • contribs) 04:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Again, you're trying to get us to do your studying for you. Tell us what YOU think are the right answers, and why. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

See Common Errors in English Usage. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Homework no. StuRat (talk) 09:07, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Risk Ratification

What does the term "risk ratification" mean? The two different words "risk and ratification" how are they used together in different ways. aniketnik 09:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketnik (talk • contribs)

Do you mean risk stratification? That one gets a lot more Google hits. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 16:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Arabic: Deaborn Public Schools

Does this document contain the official Arabic name for "Dearborn Public Schools"? http://dearbornschools.org/downloads/doc_view/104-oral-language-development-in-arabic

http://dearbornschools.org/downloads/doc_download/307-legal-notices-2010-arabic might contain it too

If not, I'll try to find more district documents and see if I can find it in them

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 09:59, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, there are two possibilities, the first one has "مدارس ديربورن الرسمية", which is more like "Dearborn official schools" (so, public as opposed to private, I guess), and the second has "مدارس ديربورن العامة", which is maybe more literally "public schools" (although, actually, Dearborn is spelled out in English there). The first one gets only 10 hits on Google but the second has 450. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll take the second option. Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 20:43, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

(Japanese) A food ingredient

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnwfrpziykk

From the movie All About My Dog (2005) at 3:30. The story is about an ill-fated TV commercial that everyone wants to Wikify it ...

What is the third ingredient? I know the first two are Japanese beef and tuna. -- Toytoy (talk) 17:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

You mean にしん? My dictionary says "Pacific herring (Clupea pallasii)." -- BenRG (talk) 23:56, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Bilanz?

I came across the German word Bilanzverantwortlicher at my job recently, and thought it was a misspelling of Balanzverantwortlicher, but because my German is only fairly good, not at a native-like level, I was wary of correcting it, especially because it's a technical term. Having looked at the German Wiktionary, it appears that Bilanz is indeed correct. But why does German spell it Bilanz when most other Indo-European languages spell it with an a vowel, like the English word "balance"? JIP | Talk 19:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

According to Kluge's etymological dictionary, it comes from Latin bilanx. So the real question is, why don't the other languages spell it "bilance"? -- Ferkelparade π 19:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

French has both versions, balance and bilan. The latter was adopted from Italian along with the rise of banking in the 15th century or so. balance existed in French before that and seems to have been taken directly from vulgar Latin, french style. So, both versions come from the same Latin word, but along different routes. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:17, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

This dictionary suggests the a instead of i in French may have been due to a contamination with the verb baller "to dangle, swing". bilan is mostly "balance sheet", and hence "assessment", while balance is the primary counterpart of "balance" in the other languages (most of which have apparently borrowed it directly or indirectly from French). Italian has the original i in bilancia "scales", bilancio "(financial) balance". It's strange, however, that Spanish also has a in balanza and balance, as does Portuguese in balança and balanço; the DRAE doesn't mention borrowing from French, and bailar doesn't look like a likely source of contamination either. And another mystery ... unsolved! --91.148.159.4 (talk) 21:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Oddly enough, Spanish does have the word balance, which it borrowed from French [1], but balanza comes straight from Vulgar Latin [2], as 91.148 mentioned (I included the link a second time; I couldn't get the one in 91.148's post to work). A quick check to Google Translate shows Balanţa/balansa appear in Romanian, too; Catalan: balança. Are there any Romance languages besides Italian and the French alternate that retain the high vowel [i]?--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 03:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Romanian uses bilanţ for the accounting balance. Balans would be balance in the sense of equilibrium, a balansa is "to balance", while balanţă would be the weighing scale. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 11:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Weird, weirder, weirdest. I suppose bilanţ can be understood as a loan from German or, perhaps, from the Italian accounting terminology like French bilan. balans is almost certainly from French. But there still remains balanţă, which, like Spanish balanza, seems to be the least likely to be a loan. These a versions seem to be old everywhere, except for Italian. I don't get it. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

March 11

Hindi Help

I'm trying to copy the name of the Federal Emergency Management Agency in Hindi, but I have problems with some of the characters when I directly copy it from http://www.fema.gov/pdf/assistance/process/help_after_disaster_hindi.pdf

What is the Hindi name in characters so I can copy-paste the characters? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

फ़ेडेरल आपातकालीन प्रबंधन एजेंसी 'feḍeral āpātkālīn prabandhan ejensī'. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 01:36, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 01:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's another. I'm trying to find the Hindi name for the Toronto District School Board. Some Hindi documents I found include:

• http://www.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments/about_us/media_room/docs/Parent%20Survey%20-%20Letter%20From%20Director%20to%20Parents_Hindi.pdf
• http://schools.tdsb.on.ca/humberwood/docs/ad.pdf
• http://www.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments/about_us/general_asset_and_program_planning__gapp_/docs/Brochure_Hindi%20%282%29.pdf

Do any of these contain a Hindi name for the TDSB? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

टोरंटो डिस्ट्रिक्ट स्कूल बोर्ड , just the English name in Devanagari letters. --Soman (talk) 18:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Urdu and Lao Help

How do you type the Urdu and Lao names of FEMA? They appears in the first text pages of http://www.fema.gov/pdf/assistance/process/help_after_disaster_urdu.pdf and http://www.fema.gov/pdf/assistance/process/help_after_disaster_laotian.pdf - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:28, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I see فيڈرل ايمرجنسی منيجمنٹ ايجنسی in the Urdu pdf but I think that's just a phonetic transcription of the English name Federal Emergency Management Agency.--Cam (talk) 00:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Alright - that works. Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:59, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I get ອົງການ ຄວບຄຸມໄພສຸກເສີນລັດຖະບານກາງ when I copy + paste for Lao, but no clue what that is phonetically. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 04:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems like the Lao is correct. Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Decreased prosody of speech

A person whose has a speech with decreased prosody. What is the exact meaning/in what sense does the term "prosody" is used. What does the term "prosody" explain with regards to the person's speech? aniketnik 11:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketnik (talk • contribs)

See Prosody (linguistics). Roger (talk) 11:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Probably means basically "more robotic sounding"... AnonMoos (talk) 19:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Latin -ae plurals

Hi. What are the rules for pronouncing the "-ae" ending in plurals from Latin (e.g. "formulae", "tesserae", "antennae", etc.)? The dictionaries I've looked at seem to always give the pronunciation as "-ee" (i.e. rhyming with "tea"). Are other pronunciations (such as pronouncing "antennae" to rhyme with "high", as I do) mistaken? 86.176.212.20 (talk) 12:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you asking for the English rendering or a Latin pronunciation? Regarding the latter, there are indeed many renderings. The classic, restituted pronunciation (more or less what we have inferred the Golden Age Latin sounded like) has /ai/ for the ending. As this section shows, both -ae and -oe tended with time to merge into a kind of -ee (/eː/). On the other hand, English tends to use the classical sound. Pallida  Mors 14:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

To clarify my previous post, I meant /ai/ to rhyme with high. And, to my surprise, my dictionary shows the pronunciation of antennae to have a final -ee (/iː/) sound.Pallida  Mors 14:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, having checked some dictionaries maybe I should take back my assesment about the English pronunciation keeping the classical sound. I deleted it, hoping a native speaker can clarify about it. Pallida  Mors 14:43, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

To answer your question, I am asking about the English pronunciation. 86.176.212.20 (talk) 14:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The English pronunciations of the Latin endings ae and ī are, respectively, "ee" as in "see" and "igh" as in "sigh". (They are interchanged with respect to their classical pronunciations.) The pronunciation of the English word vertebrae ends with "ee" as in "see". I spent only a few minutes in searching online for a supporting reference, but without success.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:29, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I will not disagree that the "correct" English pronunciation of the Latin ending -ae is "-ee" (iː). However, in my experience, the more common pronunciation in the United States is "-ay" (eɪ). Marco polo (talk) 15:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The (admittedly somewhat dated) canonical source for "vertebrae" is of course the song The criminal cried from The Mikado:

He shivered and shook as he gave the sign
For the stroke he didn't deserve;
When all of a sudden his eye met mine,
And it seemed to brace his nerve;
For he nodded his head and kissed his hand,
And he whistled an air, did he,
As the sabre true
Cut cleanly through
His cervical vertebrae,
His vertebrae!

AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I suggest Mr Gilbert was deliberately using an incorrect rhyming of "vertibrae" with "he" there for added humour. Speaking as a Brit who has both studied Latin at school and maintained a decades-long interest in biology, I have never heard anyone our side of the Pond rhyme "vertibrae" with anything other than "hay" or occasionally "eye". Anglicisations of Latin tend to be erratic, perhaps because different fashions of pronouncing Classical Latin come and go pedagogically (e.g. "Kai-zar" v "Seize'er"), and because different ones become traditional in different specialisms (The Law, Medicine, etc). A. P. Herbert covered both bases in one of his Misleading Cases, in which a newly qualified barrister confuses the elderly judge with "modern" Latin pronunciations, until the judge cogently explains to him why a living technical vocabulary needs to retain its consistency rather than change according to the latest academic notions about 2-millennia-old usages. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.135 (talk) 20:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

That's vertebrae, not vertibrae (middles are just as important as endings). -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:33, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Quite right. Muphry's Law; blind spot :-) . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.135 (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the /eɪ/ ("hay") pronunciation is more common nowadays in vertebrae, but I think the evidence points to the /iː/ ('he") pronunciation being standard (or "correct") up to at least the early decades of the twentieth century. As I understand it, æ and œ were seen as representing the same sound in English as a long e, which after the Great Vowel Shift changed from /eː/ to /iː/. It was only under the influence of Italianate Church Latin (/eː/) and the reconstructed classical pronunciation (/ai/), that confusion began to arise. Note also that in words which were originally spelled with ae, but which now have been simplified to e, /iː/ (hyena, museum, etc.) or sometimes /ɛ/ (estuary). The OED has an interesting discussion on this topic under "ae", and see also this blog post by John Wells.

As far as Gilbert goes, I'm sure Gilbert was trying to be humorous, but the fact of trying to rhyme anything with "vertebrae" is humorous in itself. I can't find another poem with "vertebrae", but compare these decidedly non-humorous verses from Byron, with the "he" rhyme: "Who made that bold diversion / In old Thermopylæ, / And warring with the Persian / To keep his country free". Lesgles (talk) 22:44, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree the proper traditional English Latin pronunciation of long <ae> is "-ee" (iː), as in Caesar and antennae. Daniel Jones' Phonetic Dictionary of the English language (1913) gives /iː/, his English pronouncing dictionary (eleventh edition of 1956, reprinted in 1958) gives /iː/ first and the other versions in brackets, with /ei/ last. The /ai/ (high)) version is restored Classical pronunciation, but the /ei/ (hay) version is just some kind of misunderstanding (in origin; of course, people are free to pronounce it as they wish).--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:30, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S. And even today I don't think anyone would pronounce Thermopylae rhyming with "hay".--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:32, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

As for the place of restored classical pronunciation - my personal opinion is that it's appropriate when you actually speak Latin (in a Classical context), but its extension into the modern spoken language is about as justified as pronouncing Paris as Pa-REE - even more so in Neo-Latin words unrelated to the Classical period. One might as well start referring to civilization as kiwi-lization.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Male graduates are alumni; each one of them is a guy.

Female graduates are alumnae; each one of them is a "she".

—Wavelength (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

... but they swap these gender sounds (alumni rhymes with he) in the Latin that some of us were taught (and much earlier than the 1990s (see below)). Dbfirs 19:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There's also somewhat of a generation gap between different pronunciation schemes. When I learned Latin in the U.S. in the late 1990's, I learned a version that Pallida_Mors alluded to above: -i sounds like flea, -ae sounds like high. This short NYT article also shows that a certain amount of personal preference determines how it'll actually sound coming out of the user's mouth. To use Justice Breyer's example, I'd Anglicize amicus in "amicus brief" to rhyme with abacus, but if the entire phrase amicus curiae is needed, I'd pronounce it a-ME-kuss (like wuss) KOO-ree-igh. Vertebrae VER-t/ə/-bray doesn't sound wrong to me, but that's I think because it's pretty much a well-rounded English word at this point (it's been in the language long enough to lose its foreign accent, so to speak). ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 22:36, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

...and rolling the R's makes everything lots more fun to say. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 22:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

When I was at school, my maths and chemistry teachers always referred to "for-mule-ee", but that sounds very outdated now. They might not even teach formulae these days, for all I know. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There are three pronunciations for vertebrae at wikt:vertebrae. See also http://www.onelook.com/?w=vertebrae&ls=a.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Cambodian/Khmer help

What is the Cambodian name of FEMA? The name should be in the http://web.archive.org/web/20061016185946/http://www.fema.gov/pdf/media/2006/cam_gen_guide.pdf document ... WhisperToMe (talk) 22:40, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I cannot read Cambodian, but if you look on those two pages you will see FEMA (in English) appearing a number of times (twice in the phone number, but other times besides that). It is possible that it is written like this in Cambodian. Words on either side of each occurrence of FEMA are different, except for two instances where the previous two words/phrases are the same, leading me to believe that there are no Cambodian versions of FEMA there. Of course, you will need someone to confirm this. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Italian

Hi. I currently speak French and English fluently and I speak Spanish pretty well too. I would like to be able understand written Italian, but unfortunately I don't have the time to study Italian formally :( Just to get me started though, what are some "cognate patterns"/similarities between Italian and French/Spanish, and what are the basics that I need to at least make out the gist of written Italian on the occasions when I encounter it? Thanks. 72.128.95.0 (talk) 23:24, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

There are too many of them to quickly summarize. Pick up an Italian newspaper. You'll probably be able to read most of it (one nice surprise when I got back from Italy was that I could read the Mexican papers), and it'll start you on picking up the regular differences. --Trovatore (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Just a couple that I can think of off the top of my head, though: Generally a Spanish word that has ct between two vowels will correspond to a double-t in Italian (exacto vs esatto). A lot of Spanish consonants will get doubled in Italian (and Italian pronounces doubled consonants distinctively, which I think Spanish doesn't), or li may turn into gli between two vowels. Medial gli is essentially the same sound as medial Spanish ll (by speakers who don't just pronounce the latter as a y), maybe a little more voiced. --Trovatore (talk) 00:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

One that's a little surprising at first: Latin <f>, which generally survives as <f> in French and Italian, usually became <h> in Spanish. So Sp "hacer" = It. "facere", Sp. "hijo" = It. "figlio". --ColinFine (talk) 00:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

(Actually, facere is Latin. Italian is fare, although the middle syllable survives in some derived forms, like the imperfect facevo.) --Trovatore (talk) 01:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Legend has it that T. S. Eliot taught himself Italian by translating the whole Divina Commedia into English with only a modern Tuscan dictionary to help. Snopes.com has no info on this assertion.--Shirt58 (talk) 10:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey, that's one I never noticed! I had just memorized those. Thanks.

Also brings up another regularity: Medial j in Spanish sometimes corresponds to Italian gli: ajo — aglio. --Trovatore (talk) 01:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll throw in another one: Italian <st> = Spanish <est> = French <ét>: stato/estado/état, stabilire/establecer/établir, etc. Lesgles (talk) 17:32, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

And Stefano/Esteban/Étienne. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Though this includes Portuguese, (some) Latin words starting with "cl...", "fl...", or "pl..." are interesting when compared with their cognates in daughter languages. In French the first two letters remain the same. In Spanish they get replaced by "ll". In Portuguese by "ch". In Italian, only the "l" gets replaced by a "i" (in terms of pronunciation anyway).

Example

Latin	French	Spanish	Portuguese	Italian
clamare	clamer	llamar	chamar	chiamare
flamma	flamme	llama	chama	fiamma
plicare	plier	llegar	chegar	piegare

See also David Brodsky, Spanish Vocabulary: An Etymological Approach, University of Texas Press, 2008, ---Sluzzelin talk 00:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

March 12

Japanese word order

Curious to see the Japanese article on the Sendai Airport, I put its URL into Google Translate and was confronted with a notice of "This page is vandalism or edit wars for such policies in accordance with Mamoru Yasushi editing is." Has the translation software mangled the word order, or is that how the Japanese words are really arranged? The original text is ここのページは荒らしや編集合戦などのため、方針に基づき編集保護されています。 Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

This is the Japanese word order:

ここのページは = This page (topic)

荒らし = trolling/vandalism

や = and

編集合戦 = edit-warring

など = etc.

のため、 = because of,

方針 = policy

に基づき = in accordance with

編集保護されています = is edit-protected

Google Translate has mangled it, which is pretty typical. 86.177.106.19 (talk) 02:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Japanese is a head-final (subject-object-verb) language, so where we would say [this page is protected [because of [edit warring]]], a Japanese speaker would say [this page [edit warring [because of]] is protected]. rʨanaɢ (talk) 04:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't imagine why Google Translate would choose to render 保護 as "Mamoru Yasushi" instead of "protection", but this isn't the first time it's happened. -- BenRG (talk) 05:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

More Arabic help

What is the Arabic name of the Toronto District School Board?

The name is somewhere in http://www.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments/parents/parents/docs/directorsprnt%20letter%202008-arabic.pdf this document

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

مجلس التعلیم المحلی بتورونتو --Omidinist (talk) 05:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much WhisperToMe (talk) 07:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Proper use of "big" in "it is that big" and "how big is this"

Hello,

I would like some feedback by native speakers or experts. I plan to use the sentences fairly often in a scientific text, and in order to avoid embarrassment I wanted to check if they are not silly. "How big can this be?" (as in "How big can the group of people/ the set of suitable options/the collection of planets..") "If it is that big, then...."

Many thanks,Evilbu (talk)

I am neither a native speaker nor an expert, but I think that in scientific texts the more formal (or rather, less informal) word large is preferred. --Pxos (talk) 16:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. "Big" isn't wrong, but "large" is better in this formal context. Lesgles (talk) 17:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for the responses. Would "large" also be suitable when speaking of "large parameters" (as in: the temperature in a room)?81.82.86.83 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC).

Do you mean that the parameter itself is "large" (the temperature can vary from absolute zero to millions of degrees) or that the temperature is "large" when it is hot? I think that the temperature is a variable, not a parameter. --Pxos (talk) 20:04, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

My immediate response would be this: "A parameter can be more or less important in a model, and it can have a large or small value." However, googling shows that "a large parameter" (meaning a parameter with a large value) appears to be used in mathematical literature, (example). Some examples from computer science turned up as well. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Note that when we talk of values, they will typically be high, and not big or large in a scientific text. However, on the other side of the scale, we have both small and low values. Thus, "high parameter values" and "high temperatures". No such user (talk) 13:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Origin of term hellcat

I am curious as to the origin of this term used to describe a nasty, unpleasant female. It seems to have been used a lot in 19th and early 20th-century USA. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

My SOED dates the first use to 1605, with a possible connection suggested to the name Hecate. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

1605!? -Was it that long ago, and did it originate in England or Scotland? I am wondering when it became used in America?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The two earliest citations in the OED are both from the English drama: Thomas Middleton's The Witch (dated ante 1605 by the OED; see our article for another view) and James Shirley's The Ball (1632; credited by the OED to Chapman and Shirley). No American citations. Deor (talk) 15:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The online edition of the OED gives several American citations, the first being from Bennett Wood Green's Word-book of Virginia folk-speech from 1899 and the newest being from 2006. It even claims that the term is "Now chiefly US." -Elmer Clark (talk) 07:21, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Anna at the door

There is a knock on the door. Wife goes to answer, and later the man asks: "Who was at the door"? -"It was Anna," replies the wife. A question of grammar. Could the reply have been "She was Anna" as well, or is it merely awkward, or maybe ungrammatical even? --Pxos (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

"She was Anna" isn't really possible here, but I'm not exactly sure why. I think part of it is "she" is too particular; it implies a specific person whose gender is known. In fact, the only context that I can think of in which you would use "She was Anna" (or any pronoun + was + name) is when you are talking about a name change, e.g. "She was Anna, but now she is Hannah". Lesgles (talk) 17:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The way I see it is, 'it was Anna' answers the question 'who was at the door', because it says 'it was Anna [who was at the door]'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

That's right. The question could have been answered in the "A (<verb> B)" form ("Anna (was at the door)"), but they chose to use the "It is/was A (who <verb> B)" form ("It was Anna (who was at the door)"). This latter construction is fixed in its essential form ("It is the Queen who makes the final decision"), and the "it" is like the "it" in "It's raining" - it does not refer to an identifiable doer of an action, so its use in sentences that do happen to have an identifiable doer (lika Anna) should not be confused as referring to that doer, and the temptation to "correct" it to "he" or "she" or "they" should be avoided. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:47, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I agree as the construction is equally unacceptable in my native language (Finnish), but let me put the question another way. If the man asks the question "who is knocking at this late hour" and the wife, having seen Anna through a window, replies "It is Anna!", can she also make a point by saying "She is Anna!"? Is that merely odd, or unacceptable? And what if this happened in a nunnery? I'm not trying to make a joke here, I have thought about this too long and I have lost touch (with all languages...) --Pxos (talk) 19:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Theoretically it may be possible for the wife to add 'She is Anna!' - if Anna was a topic of conversation recently and the husband had no idea who Anna was. In which case, the sentence-stress would be on the word 'she'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:19, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The answer "She was Anna" seems somewhat more natural if the man had asked: "Who was the woman at the door?" rather than "Who was at the door?" But "She was Anna" strikes me as an awkward response in either case. Wanderer57 (talk) 20:18, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The following continuation of this discussion was posted on my Talk Page, so I am moving it here where it really should be:

[Start] Could the reply have been "She was Anna" as well, or it is merely awkward or is maybe even ungrammatical?

Certainly an interesting one, including your input.

And if we search for descriptive answers, the problem of pronominal and binding ambiguities are divided into roughly two syntactic principles; which regards pronouns as genuinely ambiguous between referential and bound uses, and 2) which refers the ambiguity as utterly semantical and that pronouns should be given a uniform treatment with the context in question.

But explicating the details of this difference between referential and bound uses of pronouns is far from a trivial matter as for how to characterize the ambiguities. One proponent of the view that natural language pronouns are ambiguous is Chomsky ( Government_and_Binding_Theory). Also, Schoubye's analyses on ‘Pronominal ambiguity' seek some answers to this question.

If those analyses do not give an accurate answer to this particular question about the anaphoric pronoun that is in contextual deixis, then, as for its descriptivism, I tend to see this as the question of the verb’s inherent modality, namely, whether the verb is a copulative one or a linking verb.

Example:

Who was at the door? It was Anna. (the verb is a linking verb; cannot be ‘She was Anna.’)

Who is she? She was Anna. (the verb is copulative; cannot be ‘It was Anna.’)

Mr.Bitpart (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The differences between languages are great fun. Finnish does not use 'it' for the subject in sentences like "It is raining", we simply say "rains" as in Italian "piove". And in Finnish the equivalent of it (se) has broader use than in English. It can be used to refer to persons, animals, objects as well as something definite (but it is not the definite article). It comprises the English words 'it', 'she', 'he', 'the' and 'that'. In this regard, the reply "It was Anna" has the same basic meaning as in English, but at the same time, implicitly, can be construed to have the meaning "She was Anna" (at the door). On the contrary, the real personal pronoun hän (he or she) cannot be used in this context.

And furthermore, Finnish uses the past tense where, say, in Italian the present is called for. I remember saying to an Italian that the man who actually visited our house was the mayor. My friend thought that the man is an ex-mayor as I said it in Italian (era il sindaco = he was the Mayor) which was a direct translation of the Finnish implicit sense He who was here, is the mayor. The Finnish 'it' causes sometimes confusion among learners. --Pxos (talk) 02:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

[End] Sorry for the formatting. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking for name of English tense or term

Could someone tell me what the term or tense is of the following phrases, and if there's a difference other than number? "Like the swan in the evening moves over the lake" as opposed to "Like the swans in the evening move over the lake".

It's from the song "She moved through the fair". I was wondering about this as I was listening to a few versions of it, and some sing the second phrase, which sounds less poetic to me. Obviously, the first is singular and the second is plural, but somehow the first one seems less specific, as though it's describing a general swan, while the second seems more reality based. Any suggestions? Snorgle (talk) 17:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's a past discussion, regarding the generic use of the singular, that seems related to your query. Jesperson's grammar, referred to there, might be a good place to look for a formal discussion, but I don't have it at hand at the moment. Deor (talk) 22:26, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

That looks very useful, thanks! Snorgle (talk) 23:19, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

double translation

Hi, I'm looking for examples of (quality) English literature that has been translated into a foreign language, then, as an exercise, translated back by someone else not familiar with the original. The qualification is that the translations be by reasonably qualified people, preferably who at least thought they were producing them for some kind of professional or commercial use. Of course they needn't be entire texts, because no one would spend heaps of money translating all of Macbeth from Russian back into English just out of curiosity, but I feel that linguists must have tried this for shorter passages for the sake of comparison. I've been googling (no luck), and I've also tried google's own machine translation, but it actually reproduces the original with remarkable fidelity, I trust because it follows its own rules and assumptions consistently in both directions. Try Hamlet's famous soliloquy, for example. Thanks in advance, It's been emotional (talk) 19:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello! This is very interesting. Do you qualify me as a translator? I happen to know parts of the soliloquy in English, but I could begin translating Hamlet from the beginning of the play (from an excellent translation into Finnish) back into English. --Pxos (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Please do feel free - I would be very interested. However, perhaps I was unclear - I meant "try the soliloquy" on google translate for your own amusement. It goes back and forth between languages with near perfect fidelity. There is in fact an amusing game of google-translating a saying (eg. "a stitch in time saves nine") back and forth between English and Japanese, until the translation becomes stable, i.e. doesn't change with further translation. It comes up with some memorable stuff, but I'm mainly looking for anything that was produced by professional tranlators, to see how close they were able to get to the original. Please have a go anyway if you enjoy the challenge. You can post it on my talk page if you run out of time here. It's been emotional (talk) 20:38, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, here goes.

---

HAMLET Act One, scene Two (back translation from Finnish to English without consulting the original)

The same region. A fest hall. (The King, the Queen etc.)

King: Though the memory of the death of our dear brother Hamlet is still fresh, and thus we should in grief sigh, and the realm should wrinkle to a single forehead of sorrow, still the reason at least has conqured the nature, so that we mourn him with our senses, and remember ourselves too.

We have therefore our former sister-in-law, the present our queen, this gallant heiress to the power, so to speak, countered with joy - water'd the one eye, clear the other, with wedding cries and festive delight, and equally the joys and sorrows weighed - married, without hinderance and by hearing your sound advice that freely to this have bent. I thank you for that!

Now, know you, that has the young Fortinbras, despising our grace, or by thinking, that by the demise of our dear late brother, our power from its hinges has loosened - based on this dream of victory, seen fit to blackmail us by a messenger, to have back the lands that his father to our brave brother by law has forfeited. - That much for that. Now to ourselves and this session!

---

It is safe to say that because the Finnish is lyrical and old, I was not able to grasp everything even in my mother tongue. But it was fun. --Pxos (talk) 21:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Google Translate cheats sometimes because it has officially translated texts in its database. (Try translating the Vulgate Bible with it - it will give you the KJV English.) Maybe it also knows Shakespeare and Shakespeare translations. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

My favourite of the washing-machine process is when the original phrase "Out of sight, out of mind" comes out as "Invisible idiot." Almost like a riddle :)

By the way, I finally compared my rendering of the Bard to the original, and I can say that I might have a brilliant future as the invisible idiot. Well, perhaps Shakespeare did write things like "advice that has bent", or "countered with joy", but Sir Francis Bacon quickly bought him out of the project. Oh well. --Pxos (talk) 12:38, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's the only example I can remember of a double translation done by professionals, though done inadvertently rather than as an exercise. The writer Halldór Laxness included an Icelandic rendering of the first verse of an old American song in his novel Paradísarheimt. When the translator and broadcaster Magnus Magnusson turned the novel into English as Paradise Reclaimed he failed to identify the song and had to simply translate Laxness's Icelandic back into English, as follows:

Far beyond the farthest forests
in the year that gold was found,
there lived a smith who shared his dwelling
with his daughter, I'll be bound.

Shortly before publication Magnusson realized the song was "Clementine", which is perhaps not the quality English literature you were asking for, Emotional. Oh, I don't know though. --Antiquary (talk) 13:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Another similar example is the chronicle of William of Tyre, which was written in Latin, and translated into French shortly after William's death. The French was far more popular than the Latin in the Middle Ages, and in the Renaissance, someone translated it back into Latin, since he didn't know about the Latin original. (Unfortunately I don't know how his Latin compares to William's.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Benjamin Franklin's autobiography was first partially published in French translation, and an unauthorized translation of the French into English followed... AnonMoos (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

A bit off the point: in Kage Baker's science fiction novel, Sky Coyote, the 17th-century Chumash Indians sing this:

Put all my sorrows in a basket

I sing quietly as I go out upon my journey

Raven, farewell

A woman stays awake to greet me

She is as sweet as honeydew

Raven, farewell

Not in Chumash, of course, but if it were and you tried putting it into English, I'm not sure you'd hit upon Bye Bye Blackbird. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers folks. I was wondering for a moment if Oh My Darling Clementine might have some relationship to the Megan Washington song Clementine, but something about these lyrics tells me maybe not. It's been emotional (talk) 01:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The Queen as Granny/Grandma/Gran/Nana

What do the Queen's grandchildren call her? 74.14.13.241 (talk) 19:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Prince Charles called her "mummy" in public once, so I doubt they would call her "Your Majesty." It's been emotional (talk) 20:26, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. However, I would like to know what they do call her. 74.14.13.241 (talk) 20:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Her own husband calls her "Cabbage". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Googling told me the grandchildren call her Maam. This was on some Royal watching website, but I can't remember the exact link. It's been emotional (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

What would you call someone who studies carnivals?

Feel free to be creative. It's for a story...

Adambrowne666 (talk) 20:17, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

A carnivalatrist. A carnographer. A carnivalographer. I think the last has a nicer rhythm. Wanderer57 (talk) 20:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

"Carnographer" sounds more related to carnivores. Try "carnivalographer". StuRat (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, both; I like them, though is 'ographer' as evocative as 'ologist'? - is an 'ographer' someone who makes notes, as opposed to an 'ologist', who's someone who makes a study of them? Still, ologist is a bit predictable here... Still thinking about it. Adambrowne666 (talk) 21:50, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Rotary notary, / Washington Ferris was / building a bridge with a / surplus of steel; / making him famous with / carnivalographers, / since in their business he's / quite a big wheel. Marnanel (talk) 01:28, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Bravo!! Wanderer57 (talk) 04:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, quite good, although I might change "in their business" to "in their circles". :-) StuRat (talk) 08:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Fastnachtsprofessor? Foirest? 74.14.13.241 (talk) 22:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

How's about 'festologist'? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Faschingist. (At first I tried "Faschist", but there's a problem with that.) --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the Latin Wikipedia, the Neo-Latin word is Carnelevarium, so carnelevarist is a possibility. If you want an -ologist term, I'd go with a Greek combining form and coin apocriologist (or apokriologist). Deor (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Oops, it occurred to me that you may be referring to funfair carnivals rather than the pre-Lenten Carnival, as I and at least some of the other respondents had assumed. If so, disregard my comment above. Deor (talk) 01:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, yes; I did mean funfairs - sorry, should have been specific. I still like apokriologist, though. Adambrowne666 (talk) 04:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Alphabetizing names

Consider the case of a name such as Josef von Sternberg. Under American (United States) conventions, is his last name alphabetized under the letter "v" or under the letter "s"? And why? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC))

The Chicago Manual of Style is the standard reference for US usage, its guidelines for alphabetising names is at the bottom of this page. It is basically down to the preference of owner of the name, if they capitalise the Von it is considered part of the last name and listed under V, as von Sternberg does not capitalise the von it will be listed as Sternberg, Josef von. Advice the Wernher von Braun article seems to ignore. meltBanana 03:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's as cut and dried as that, Melt. About the capitalisation, I mean. It is certainly down to the owner's preference. But the owner might prefer not to capitalise the "von" but still consider it part of their surname. Look at the soprano Frederica von Stade, as American as you can get. I can only assume one of her forbears came from Germany, where he would have been considered a "Stade" for sorting purposes, ignoring the "von". She, however, is a "von Stade", not a "Von Stade", and not just a "Stade".

My only concern about the Wernher von Braun article is that he's referred throughout as "von Braun" (or "Von Braun", sentence initially), but the Defaultsort function is set to "Braun", so that he appears in all his categories under B for 'Braun', not V for 'von Braun'. That's an inconsistency that needs to be resolved. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

We do have a Von article which contains a section about capitalization. Zoonoses (talk) 00:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Words of indeterminate etymology

What are some English words (preferably relatively common) whose etymologies we haven't even a guess on? I say "words" implicitly excluding things like company names, etc. Thansk. 72.128.95.0 (talk) 23:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

We have no certainty about the origins of shark or penguin. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:20, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to suggest hockey, but wiktionary has an entire category of over 200 words in English: wikt:Category:Unknown_etymology. In most cases, as far as I could tell (especially on etymonline), some people have had a guess though. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Jack; I thought penguin came from pinguid? No? - on QI the other night, Stephen Fry said we don't know the origin of the word 'dog' - until a certain point in history they were always some variation on hound; then the shift... Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I heard that 'penguin' came from the Welsh 'pen-gwyn', meaning 'white head'. Then there is the word 'bad' - not related to the Persian 'bad' (same pronunciation, same meaning). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(EC)Jack's right, as ever - penguin - of course, there are lots of slang words and profanities of unknown origin, since they arose outside the sight of most philologists. Adambrowne666 (talk) 00:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Hassle." It started to be used around World War II. No one knows where it came from. One of the ironies of etymology is that relatively new words often have unknown origins. "Nerd," for instance. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, sometimes the creation of a word can be pinned down to an exact date and time, and an exact creator (if one whose name is known only to himself). I used "novomundane" at 15:12 on 17 September 2008, in one of my ref desk posts here. I never imagined I was in fact coining anything, because it seemed the most obvious word to use, and I was as surprised as anyone to learn that nobody had ever used the word before, or, if they had, they’d never recorded it anywhere. But now, thanks to me, it's constantly on the lips of all right-thinking wordsmiths. No? Well, no, actually ... but what the hell, it's still my baby. It probably doesn't merit a place in wiktionary yet, but one day, one day ... -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

You play Final Fantasy, then? (Scroll down, or ctrl+f for 'novomundane'). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

No, not me. I tip my hat to one of my many acolytes.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

March 13

The article "a" versus "an"

Which is correct?

• He received a (unofficial) nomination in 1935.
• He received an (unofficial) nomination in 1935.

They both seem "wrong". I understand that I can reword and rewrite the sentence to avoid this problem. Nonetheless, I'd like to know the answer to this particular scenario, without any rewording or rewriting. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC))

An is correct, as "an" is used before a vowel sound and "a" before a consonant sound. Saying "An un..." does perhaps sound a little awkward but it is correct. meltBanana 03:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Words inside brackets are parenthetical, meaning they can safely be discarded without doing damage to the essential meaning of the sentence. But if you do choose to include them, they have to be taken into account for a/an purposes, just as they're included in a word count. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

My vote is for He received a(n unofficial) nomination in 1935, though I doubt most copyeditors would let me get away with it. It also wouldn't work for the opposite situation, He received a (non-binding) award in 1935. —Angr (talk) 15:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

There is no single answer. The choice between "a" and "an" is entirely phonological, not orthographical, but this sort of construction is pretty well confined to writing. I would write "an", but others may disagree. --ColinFine (talk) 19:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

ColinFine ... can you please clarify your answer? I didn't understand what you were saying. Nor did I understand the distinction between phonological and orthographical. In other words, dumb it down for me. I am not a linguistics / language expert. So, those terms mean nothing to me. Thanks! (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC))

It's the difference between writing (see orthography) and sound (see phonology). LadyofShalott 20:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

There are two elements that are related to the above sentence. First of all, the correct way of representation is "an unofficial", but if looked closely the word/term "unofficial can also be represented and replaced by another word/term.

So the use of "an" before unofficial is because "unofficial" starts with an "u" and as it starts with a vowel sounding alphabet hence use of "an"

While having a conversation between two persons the use of "a/an" is not that important matter, but while narrating a subject or representing a written subject matter the use of "a and an" matter a lot. "An" is used in front of vowels. aniketnik 08:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketnik (talk • contribs)

Square as surname

Are there any recorded historical instances of the word Square being used as a surname? I can see that it was used for a fictional character in the book Flatland, but have any real people ever had it? If not, what are some other surnames which are similar in pronunciation?--99.251.211.17 (talk) 03:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

This is slightly off topic, but I think the book was credited to "a square", not to a character named A. Square. The narrator is never named in the book itself, and the A on the cover isn't followed by a full stop, while Abbott's middle initial immediately below it does have a full stop. (The modern UK convention is to omit the full stop, but I think that wasn't true back then.) -- BenRG (talk) 05:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

That seems to be true, though Ian Stewart, in his "sequel" Flatterland, interprets "A. Square" as a name and proposes that the A stands for Albert. —Bkell (talk) 23:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Seems to be a recognised surname, at least in one country. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

FamilySearch has some tools for this sort of search, but when I looked it gave me no hits. I have a friend whose last name is Squares, however, and the previous editor seems to have found something. Wabbott9 (talk) 03:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't say I've seen it as a surname, thouigh others have already found examples, I see. Squire isn't that unusual, but that has very different roots of course. I think that most English surnames are either descriptive of a person ('Brown'), a profession ('Smith'), or a location ('Lincoln'). Though 'Square' might describe a place, it seems a little over-specific to be that common. The fact of the matter is that surnames are probably largely arbitrary, in that 'implausible' ones can multiply, and 'common' ones die out over time, due to paternal inheritance. There is probably some maths to this, which will show that eventually everyone would have the same surname... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Findagrave.com lists 78 individuals with the surname "Square". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The link given by Jack of Oz suggests it is a variant of Squire. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Is SpongeBob Squarepants close enough? HiLo48 (talk) 03:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

That would be his aristocratic English relations, the Square-Pantses (pronounced "squippence", of course)--Shirt58 (talk) 07:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website has four British men named Square out of more than 1.7 million records. One was from Guernsey. Alansplodge (talk) 12:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If a Square married a Root, they could become the Square-Roots. LadyofShalott 20:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.whitepages.com/dir/a-z/square lists quite a few people named Square in the US. --Soman (talk) 02:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

By the way, "Carré" is a common last name in French. --Xuxl (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Singular or plural nouns and verbs

How do you reconcile the use of singular/plural nouns/verbs in situations such as these? And what are the underlying reasons?

• There was only one, or perhaps two, Senators in agreement. (Should the verb be "was" or "were"? Should the noun be "Senator" or "Senators"?)
• He had many ideas. Only one (or two) is feasible. (Should the verb be "is" or "are"?)
• He had many ideas. Only one, or perhaps two, is feasible. (Should the verb be "is" or "are"?)

Also, in the above examples, does the punctuation itself make any difference at all in determining singular/plural nouns/verbs (e.g., if I decided to use parentheses versus commas versus dashes, etc., in delineating the "perhaps two" modifiers)? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC))

I don't know the answer to that, both sound awkward to me, but if rewriting is a possibility I would just do something like "There was only one senator in agreement, or perhaps two", etc. rʨanaɢ (talk) 04:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Without some rewriting, they're irreconcilable. 'One' takes singular agreement, anything higher than 'one' takes plural agreement - that's the inherent feature of number in English. So, you can't have agreement about something that includes both one and two. I'd be writing:

• There was only one Senator in agreement, or perhaps two.
• He had many ideas. Only one is feasible; two at most.

or something like that. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 05:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't say "only one, or two". The word "only" gives a message of certainty, which is then immediately contradicted. A sentence that contradicts itself can't ever work. Looie496 (talk) 17:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I somewhat agree with your (generally valid) point about the word "only". However, the same issue/problem arises even if the word "only" is removed from all of the above examples. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC))

@Looie496: Jack's examples seem to disprove your contention. --ColinFine (talk) 19:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Looie496, I can see what you're getting at, but I don't think that "only" provides the certainty you say it does. As opposed to, say, 20 Senators in agreement, there were only two in agreement; or only one; or only one, maybe two. If you needed a minimum 20 to pass the bill, it little matters whether you have only one, or only two, or only 10, or only 19 for that matter. "Only" acknowledges that the number in question is lower than some other desired number, but does not set the precise number in stone. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Only one or two" functions as a noun phrase with the word "ideas" omitted so you would write "Only one [idea] is...", "Only two [ideas] are...", "Only one or two [ideas] are..." and the first would be "There were only one, or perhaps two, Senators...". The commas, parentheses, dashes etc are largely irrelevant to the word choice and are best ignored when deciding on words like "is" or "are". Thinking of punctuation as delimiters that dictate how a sentence is broken down is probably what is giving you problems. Better to think of the punctuation as places you would pause when speaking the sentence and that might help you. This kind of construction is awkward, and would be better rewritten, but it is relatively common in transcribed speech or people typing as they think and changing their mind on what they wish to say part way through. meltBanana 19:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The punctuation issue was merely an after-thought. My real issue centers on a noun/subject that is ambiguously singular or plural ... and how to make the verb agree. Also, I don't think that a speaker's (or writer's) hesitation or changing mind is relevant at all. I can very definitely state that there were ONE or TWO of something. Meaning, I am sure that it was a small number (like 1 or 2 Senators, but certainly no more than that). So, I don't think that being hesitant or changing one's mind (mid-thought / mid-speaking) comes into play. One can be very definite that the matter in question involved one or two items. That is the rub ... as Jack says. "One" dictates singular; "two" dictates plural. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC))

In my spontaneous English (and I suspect that of most people, including most of those who have replied above), the answer is unquestionably "one or two are". The corpora agree, though weakly: BNC has 16 instances of "one or two are" and none of "one or two is"; COCA has 17 and 2 respectively. (It actually returns 3, but one is a different construction). The "logic" is irrelevant: languages do not work by logic (at least not always) and the fact that some of the things we say are not adequately explained by logical arguments is no reason not to say them when our meaning is perfectly clear. --ColinFine (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that "one or two are" sounds more natural, but probably only because of the proximity between the words "two" and "are". Would the scenario be any different if we reversed the words in the sentence to "two or one"? In that case, the proximity of words would seem to render "two or one is" as the more natural choice. I think? Consider a sentence such as this: Two votes, or even one vote, is sufficient to overturn the Mayor's decision. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC))

Which letters

Boxing 84.61 troll
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Which letters can start a word beginning with a consonant sound? --84.61.186.139 (talk) 10:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Which letters can start a word beginning with a vowel sound? --84.61.186.139 (talk) 10:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC) 'Which letters can start a word beginning with a consonant sound?' - Usually consonants, but the vowel 'u' can appear at the beginning of some words which have a consonant sound /j/ as their start, such as 'university'. 'Which letters can start a word beginning with a vowel sound?' - Usually vowels, but the consonant 'h' is silent at the beginning of some words, such as 'honest', 'hour', etc. Note also, that the letter 'y' in English can be used to represent both a consonant and a vowel sound. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC) IP locates to Nordhein-Westfalen, for those of you who know. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC) What distinguishes the consonant from the vowel - isn't y the same as i and w the same as oo? If I say "Iuniversity of Ooisconsin", is there a noticeable difference? Why is /j/ classed as a consonant? 213.122.42.235 (talk) 14:38, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Acoustically, there's very little that distinguishes /j/ from /i/ and /u/ from /enwiki/w/; they look pretty much identical on a spectrogram. The reason that /j/ and /enwiki/w/ are classified as consonants while /i/ and /u/ are classified as vowels has more to do with their behavior: /j/ and /enwiki/w/ behave as consonants in English, for example by selecting the allomorph "a" of the indefinite article rather than "an". In French, on the other hand, /j/ and /enwiki/w/ do behave as vowels for some purposes, e.g. by taking elision of vowels and liaison of consonants before them: l'oiseau [lwazo], les yeux [lezjø]. (Loanwords starting with /j/ and /enwiki/w/, like yo-yo and whisky, do behave like consonant-initial words in French; but then so do words starting with h aspiré as well as the word onze.) —Angr (talk) 15:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC) If initialisms are counted as "words", then F, H, L, M, N, R, S, T, and X can all begin words with a vowel sound (for example, "an FAA regulation" or "an XML parser"). —Bkell (talk) 15:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

British accent

Please don't feed the trolls
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why do British people sound so conceited? --70.244.234.128 (talk) 17:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC) First, you tell us why Americans sound so stupid. DuncanHill (talk) 17:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Or tell us to whom do we sound conceited. To you? In that case, only you can answer that. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC) There is no such thing as a British accent. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

March 14

French stress

I have always been told that in French there is no concept of stress as it is thought of by English speakers, and when we (as Anglophones) hear the French "stress" the last syllable of every word we are actually hearing the "prosody". Is this true? If so, why is it that on many pages on this Wikipedia French pronunciation is given with the IPA stress notation « ' »? 72.128.95.0 (talk) 01:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

In our stress (linguistics) article, it has a nice explanation: "French words are sometimes said to be stressed on the final syllable, but actually French has no word stress at all. Rather, it has a prosody whereby the final or next-to-final syllable of a string of words is stressed. This string may be equivalent to a clause or a phrase. However, when a word is said alone, it receives the full prosody and therefore the stress as well." I'm not sure if that's linguistically exactly accurate; how can there be prosody with only one word? But anyway, a word in isolation has stress just like English words. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess the reason why some people say French has no stress is because they equate "stress" with "word stress" (i.e. with emphasis always being placed on a certain syllable of a certain word); however, if we define stress phonetically, as emphasis through loudness, length, and intonation, then both English and French have stress; it's just that English stress placement is determined at the level of the word (say, "next-to-the-last syllable of the word with some exceptions", although it's really a lot more complex than that), whereas French stress placement is determined at the level of the phrase ("last syllable of the phrase"). Both are stress, and certainly both are "prosody". The word "prosody", which covers all kinds of stress and much more besides, is not really needed here, I think (and sure, there can be "prosody" - tone, length, stress - within one word, or within one syllable for that matter).--91.148.159.4 (talk) 23:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

In connected conversational speech, French stress generally occurs on the last non-schwa vowel of an "intonational group" of several words pronounced closely together as a unit. As has been explained, it has much more to do with determining where and how the overall intonation of a sentence/phrase will be expressed than with pronouncing one syllable of a word more strongly than other syllables in the word... AnonMoos (talk) 02:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Hindi help

What is the Hindi name for the Vancouver School Board?

The Hindi name is in this document http://nootka.vsb.bc.ca/March2010_Parents_budget_multi.pdf - On page 10.

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 01:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not Hindi, it's Punjabi. ਵੈਨਕੂਵਰ ਸਕੂਲ ਬੋਰਡ, 'vainkūvar s(a)kūl borḍ'. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 02:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thank you very much! BTW for the Toronto School Board stuff at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Hindi_Help, that's Hindi, right? WhisperToMe (talk) 03:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is Hindi. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 08:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

You talkin' to me?

Is there some nefarious difference between taxi drivers and cab drivers that the British are hiding from the rest of the English-speaking world? The Office for National Statistics states "one in seven Pakistani men in employment was a taxi driver, cab driver or chauffeur". Clarityfiend (talk) 04:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

See Hackney carriage - a 'Taxi', as opposed to Private_hire#Public_Carriage_Office - a 'minicab'. Only Taxis are legally allowed to ply for hire in the street - though the law is often flouted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

To clarify further. A 'minicab driver' will be booked over the phone - "I want a cab from number 10 Some Street, Somewhere to...." and the driver can presumably look up the start and destination on a map, whereas a 'taxi driver' will (at least in London) have 'the knowledge' and if you get in, and say "drive me to number 10 Some Street, Somewhere" he/she is supposed to know where it is - in addition, minicab fares are negotiable, whereas taxis have fixed rates (at least in theory). A chauffeur would theoretically be a driver employed by an individual for their own use. In practical terms, this means that if I want to get my grandmother to the railway station, I'd phone for a minicab (I'm unlikely to see a taxi for hire in my street), but if she wants to go from the station to my house, she will probably take a taxi (they are waiting outside the station for trade, and should be able to find my house). If my grandmother can afford a chauffeur, he can find his own way here... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Taxis also have minimum standards. You will never see one for hire with a scrape on it. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It should be noted that, to increase the confusion, nearly everyone in london calls a taxi a "black cab". --85.119.27.27 (talk) 10:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The original full name is taximeter cabriolet, so "taxi" and "cab" are both contractions of this that have specialised in various directions. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

This is sort of a side question, but are London taxi drivers allowed to use GPS? I have been in taxis in three different countries in the past year and all of them had GPS devices...but I suppose The Knowledge is still a point of pride. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Satnav would be preferable to some alternatives - I was recently nearly knocked off a Boris bike by a taxi whose driver was reading the A to Z. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

In NYC, you can call "gypsy cabs" to pick you up, but only officially medallioned taxicabs are legally allowed to be hailed in the street... AnonMoos (talk) 15:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Q: What's worse than raining cata and dogs? A: Hailing taxis. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

So, if you hail something other than an official taxicab, you're breaking the law? Or, are you saying that only official cabs are allowed to respond to a hailing? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The second. See Taxicabs_of_New_York_City#Medallion_taxicabs_and_livery_taxicabs for an explanation; basically the medallion taxis are the yellow cars with the medallions on them (little metal badges with serial numbers) which grants the driver the right to pick up passengers from the street corner. Other cars-for-hire, called "livery cabs" are other colors (i.e. NOT yellow), respond to specific calls for specific trips (usually a contracted trip with specific start and end points, like "from your house to the airport") and may not pick up passengers on the street. In NYC, you wouldn't think to hail a car that wasn't yellow so it would be unusual to hail a livery cab from the street. The article Illegal taxicab operation covers more as well. --Jayron32 20:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like it's basically a monopoly granted by the city government, under the reasonable justification of traffic control. I would assume that picking up friends in your car is immune from these rules, presuming they are not paying the driver. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Though there is an element of traffic control and revenue collection (licences aren't cheap), I am sure the primary justification (at least in the UK) is the protection of passengers from thieves and rapists masquerading as bona fide drivers: licenced drivers undergo a degree of scrutiny by the licencing authority before being licenced and can have their licences withdrawn for various misdemeanors and improper behaviours, and the taxicabs' display of official driver IDs inside, and cab licence numbers inside and outside the vehicle, allows traceability. The public is periodically warned to either flag down only properly marked taxicabs, or ensure that the supposed minicab they get into is really the one they've ordered. Rapes and murders, etc, have occasionally been carried out by fake minicab drivers picking up people outside nightclubs, for example. Private arrangements are not subject to such regulations, though technically someone taking 'petrol money' for transporting a fellow commuter as a regular arrangement is supposed to declare it for income tax purposes. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.135 (talk) 19:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

"licences aren't cheap". Understatement as a NY taxi medallion goes for over $640,000.[3] 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Makes total sense. They're granted a monopoly, but with that comes scrutiny and responsibility... and an expectation by someone hailing an approved cab that they'll be transported safely. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

While the distinction between taxis and "private hire cars" seems to be made in most British municipalities, I have not met the word "minicab" outside London (in fact I thought for many years that the term was obsolete, apparently because I hadn't heard it since I moved out of Greater London in 1980). --ColinFine (talk) 00:46, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Couple

The couple has no children or the couple have no children? Kittybrewster ☎ 08:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I would go with "have". --Viennese Waltz 08:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

This is an American-Commonwealth difference, and also subject to personal preference, context, and other things. See this thread. LANTZY^TALK 12:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

See collective noun. Roger (talk) 12:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Could you not say "They have no children"? DuncanHill (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking for semantic labels

I'm a policy writer, and I'm trying to label some key attributes of policy statements. I've been looking through the references from the linguistics portal, but I don't know the language of linguistics well enough to formulate a search. Specifically:

- What is an appropriate and simple label of that attirbute of a statement that shows where it lies along the spectrum from mandatory to discretionary? This will be what I use to determine whether a statement is either a guideline or a requirement. I've come up with some absurd labels, like "optionality", "mandatoriness", or just "force", but I'm lost.

- Similar to the above, but slightly different, what would be a good label to capture whether a statement is normative/prescriptive versus informative/descriptive? From the sources I've consulted, both requirements and recommendations can be classified as normative/prescriptive, with varying degrees of the previous "mandatoriness" attribute. This might be similar to mood, (imperative vs. declarative), but I'm looking for a word that's a little more user-friendly.

Sorry if this is too vague a question, or if this is the improper forum for it. I appreciate any input anyone can offer. Glenn R. Marshall, Eagan, MN (talk) 20:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

For the first one, how about "degree of discretion permitted" ? You could then use a percentage scale, say from 0% meaning you will be arrested and charged for failure to comply to 100% meaning you can do as you please. StuRat (talk) 22:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

(Not a native English speaker), but for 1) "optionality" sounds OK to me, and Wiktionary agrees: "Quality or state in which choice or discretion is allowed. ". For 2), there is "wikt:normativity", <awkward>under which title also exist books.</awkward> Wiktionary gives "prescriptivity" as a synonym. No such user (talk) 08:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Rating quality of content

Is anyone aware of a process for making a step-by-step analysis of the content quality of a print or online article? I have noticed that some sites/magazines have content which I value and others leave me unimpressed (Wikipedia articles are almost always what I would rate as high quality and hopefully the content on my own website, <identifying information removed>, would also rate high.). I am wondering if there exists a procedure for assigning a content value to articles of all kinds. I'm not sure of what the proper procedure is for asking/answering this question... can someone with ideas about this concept of a step-by-step process to assign a value rating to articles e-mail me? <identifying information removed> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.120.143 (talk) 23:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Per reference desk policy, all of your personally identifying info has been redacted. I'll leave it to others to answer your question. --Jayron32 23:43, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

This shouldn't be on the Language Desk. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I dunno: the subject involves, though extends beyond, evaluation of written language. Although Humanities might have been a better choice, I think of the RefDesk subject areas not so much as rules, more guidelines (ah-harr). We can't expect possibly WP-naïve OPs always to evalute subjects in the same way that we might. (The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.135 (talk) 16:46, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

March 15

Deloculated

What does the term "deloculated" mean? For instance the term is used in a sentence like "an abscess was deloculated". What does the term "deloculated" stand for? aniketnik 12:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketnik (talk • contribs)

It seem to mean, remove or fill a locule (or loculi). meltBanana 13:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

A positive rant

I'm looking for a word that has the meaning of 'rant,' or 'diatribe' but without the negative connotations. 'Soliloquy' and 'monologue' both sound a little too theateresque to me. Any ideas?209.6.54.248 (talk) 17:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that monologue is necessarily theatrical. I think that it is the best, most neutral term for a person going on and on without interruption. If you want a word for a "positive rant", or a speech of praise, panegyric is a good word. Marco polo (talk) 18:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

And what's wrong with just "speech" ? In particular, a "keynote speech" sounds positive, to me. A "testimonial" is a speech endorsing a particular person or product, and also has a religious connotation. StuRat (talk) 20:48, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

"Jeremiad" is, if not necessarily positive, at least semi-obscure and somewhat Biblical-sounding and dignified... AnonMoos (talk) 01:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

"Encomium" is nice, "eulogy" would do, but does tend to be associated with funerals. DuncanHill (talk) 01:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

And despite our article (which seems to me a clear violation of WP:DICDEF), screed can be used neutrally to refer to a written mass of verbiage of rantlike character. Deor (talk) 01:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

How about "rave", as in rant and rave. Shadowjams (talk) 04:02, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Filibuster? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Bizarre Sentence Stress on UK News Reports

I have been noticing for a while now strange stress patterns on UK TV news reports. An example would be:

"There was an explosion at the No.1 reactor this morning, after the No.2 reactor suffered a similar explosion yesterday, while this afternoon No.3 reactor exploded......"

I am talking about placing stress on words which have already been used a number of times, as if they were new, rather than the more usual stress pattern of (in the example above) stressing the numbers. What is the reason for this, and is there a name for this particular pattern? Personally I think it might be done to drum certain words into us, but it actually sounds to me like the newsreader isn't paying attention to what he/she is saying (and coupled with mumbling the most important words in an attempt to sound sympathetic/ominous/vaguely interested, it makes for a very annoying news broadcast, to be honest). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I think you might find, if you experiment with reading those sentences without the stress, that there is a tendency to slur those words. News readers very often are trained to use unusual stress patterns in order to make difficult words come through distinctly. Looie496 (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

One of the most extraordinary examples is the correspondent Robert Peston, whose mannerisms are much imitated. By impressionists. Though he, himself, blames it on over-coaching by the BBC. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Right, so that's what it is. They are actually instructed to do this. I have also noticed it a lot with gameshow hosts reading out the possible answers that a contestant could give ("ten-thousand, twenty-thousand, thirty-thousand, or seventy-five [pause] THOUSAND"). I took that particular one as being boredom at the sheer repetitiveness of the job, but could not quite understand why it has extended to newsreaders. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, if only some correspondents/newsreaders were amenable to instruction. I'd have a long list of dos and don'ts for them. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Could the teleprompter also be to blame ? That is, if the word doesn't come up quite fast enough, wouldn't there naturally be a pause followed by emphasizing the word ? StuRat (talk) 20:46, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Possibly, but not all the time and in such a recognizable pattern, I'm sure. I'm guessing from Jack's comment it's not just us Brits who are plagued by this, either. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. "I have been noticing for a while now strange stress patterns on [Australian] TV news reports". And not just speech patterns. There's a whole gamut of contrived, cliched, unnatural things they do. And all terribly predictable, which is the worst sin of all. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think this is a new thing with British commentators. Eric Idle was one who made fun of this perhaps "over-dramatic" style, clear back in the early 70s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Scrabble word list / dictionary disparity

I've downloaded the Official North American Tournament Scrabble Word List from a couple of sources. It has 8691 words. In the article Scrabble it says the word list is compiled from 4 dictionaries, including Merriam-Webster. In the article Wiktionary I read that Miriam-Webster has 475,000 entries. Why are there apparently hundreds of thousands of words, something like 98%, missing from the Scrabble word list? 213.122.48.199 (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure that you've counted correctly? Our article says that the list contains 178,691 words. Deor (talk) 22:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, good deduction, you're right. Turns out SciTE's line numbering wraps round to 0 when it gets to 9999. Ta. (I guess the remaining disparity is accounted for by obsolete words, or peculiar conjugations?) 213.122.14.131 (talk) 23:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I suppose it excludes words that are impossible in a Scrabble game, such as words that can't be spelled with the limited number of letters and blanks available, as well as words of more than fifteen letters. I'd imagine, however, that most of the difference between Merriam-Webster and the Scrabble word list is accounted for by the many open and hyphenated compounds (e.g., iron oxide) that constitute lemmas in the dictionary but, to the best of my recollection, are inadmissible in Scrabble. Deor (talk) 01:02, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

(G/K/Kh/Q)addafi

Which is correct? --70.244.234.128 (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

They are all attempts at transliterating Arabic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:17, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Google Translate prefers "Gadaffi", and the Arabic comes out like this, for what it's worth

القذافي

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:21, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

القذافي(EC)

So, from this, we see that 'Q' is correct, but in the Libyan dialect of Arabic (like Egyptian), this is pronounced as 'G'. See Phonology Of Libyan Arabic for this. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

What is "correct" depends on what you mean by "correct". Do you mean "what is the best representation of how the name is pronounced by those who bear it", or do you mean "what would be consistent with that used for [n] dialect of Arabic"? DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

(EC) Perhaps I should clarify (though I am not sure if your post, Duncan, was a reply to me or the OP). 'Q' is generally the transliteration for the letter 'qaf', which is the first letter of the name, when transliterating literary Arabic, but it is pronounced as 'G' in the Libyan dialect. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I was replying to both you and the OP. "Correct" is one of those words which needs nailing down when it is used. DuncanHill (talk) 00:17, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I should have thought of that, yes, you are quite correct :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Our article Muammar_Gaddafi#Name has some discussion of this, which may help the original questioner. DuncanHill (talk) 23:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

This user seems to be a troll; his previous questions here have been hidden. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 00:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Whatever the nature of his previous questions, this one is reasonable. So long as people will insist on using a huge variety of languages, dialects, and alphabets worldwide difficulties will inevitably arise. DuncanHill (talk) 01:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I would say that the most "correct" transliteration, in the sense of most accurately reflecting classical Arabic norms, would be either Qadhdhāfī or Qaððāfī (depending on whether you favor digraphs or IPA characters to represent the Arabic ذ letter). Of course, these transliterations would not reflect the most common vernacular pronunciations in Libya itself... AnonMoos (talk) 00:46, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

This and this may be of interest. These articles also note that when the Libyan leader wrote to second-graders in Minnesota in 1986, he signed the letter "Moammar El-Gadhafi". — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 08:41, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

March 16

Polytheama / Politeama

I was sent here from the Humanities desk:

There are several Politeama theaters in Italy, Portugal and Brazil. Apparently there is even a Polytheama in Greece. So what is the story behind the name? What does Polytheama mean in Greek? Is it a famous theater of Antiquity? A placename? A mythological character?

From the answers there, it means something like "a theatre or act where different kinds of shows are performed". Can you confirm? --Error (talk) 00:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

As near as I can figure, it's a compound of Πολυ and Θεαμα "spectacle". Unfortunately, the newly-revamped Perseus.tufts.edu search interface to the full Liddell & Scott lexicon appears to have a lot of quirks and errors, so I'm going by my smaller paper version... AnonMoos (talk) 01:04, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The word in modern Greek is defined as "an organized spectacle, composed of many individual elements and artistic events (sound, music, dance, movement, drama, pictures, etc.)" ([4] and Google translate). Lesgles (talk) 03:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

AnonMoos, the LSJ on Perseus gave me "polytheamon", or "things having been seen" or something like that. It didn't give a root verb for it though. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Brazilian Portuguese

The article Brazilian Portuguese says that "Roughly speaking, the differences between European Portuguese and standard Brazilian Portuguese can be defined as comparable to the ones found between British and American English." It links to a supposed source for this claim, but I don't actually see where the supposed source says this, or anything like it. I've read elsewhere that the differences between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are greater than those between BrE and AmE. Does anyone here have any knowledge of this? 86.160.218.94 (talk) 04:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I've no idea whether this is true, but saying that it "can be defined" looks over-exact. It is worth pointing out that there are two different issues when considering linguistic difference - those between spoken variants, and those between written ones. (there is also the question as to whether 'British English' is a particularly useful concept to use for comparisons, given the wide variations, and less-than-universal comprehensibility...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

An Exultation of Larks

I am hoping to find an electronic copy of this book AN Exultation OF Larks by James Lipton availal on the internet for payment or not. It is about collective nouns. Does anyone know? 117.241.120.50 (talk) 06:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

It appears to still be in print. If you can't find it via Google, have you tried contacting the Bravo TV network where Lipton works, or the publisher Penguin Books? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

i have not because I suspect they would just send m to by a printed copy wich are readily avail.able in the US (though I' m not there!!!) I am looking for an ebook therefore 117.241.121.182 (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Have you looked into the various e-book devices that are out there, and whether this book is available on any of them? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:43, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I ve also tried the old-world mode of searching google 'exaltation of larks lipton ebook OR pdf' to no avail......... 117.241.123.203 (talk) 09:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)