Talk:Iran–Iraq War

Economic Cost

Would like a functioning, and reliable, source for the 500 billion USD cost. Seems to be greatly exaggerated considering the actual size of the Iraqi and Iranian economies (neither which exceeds 500 billion USD even today, 22 years after the end of the war, despite economic growth and inflation) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.237.223.30 (talk) 20:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

"Iran-Iraq war", Microsoft Encarta (2008) is the source. Today, GDP by PPP in Iran is above $800 billion. GDP does not equate "total assets" in a country. For example, GDP in the USA is around $14 trillion today and "total hard assets" is many times that amount. Damage because of the war has also to include damage to the people and also healthcare costs. Still, all this does not account for opportunity costs and inflation, since these numbers were calculated by United Nations experts in the early 1990's. Today, the cost for Iran's economy alone would be above $1 trillion easily. 68.197.144.38 (talk) 03:05, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

US involvement with Iran during the war

I have gone through the article/sources and have noted that the article misleadingly assumes that US was a strategic supporter of Iran during the war, which is completely wrong. The fact is that US supplied some equipment to Iran and these were done as part of a deal on Iran's hostage taking and terror attacks in Lebanon. This can not be put as a strategic support. There are numerous credible sources which are as such one is this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/21/AR2011012102914_2.html . The article will be changed to reflect this and this is put here to initiate a consensus. --Irooniqermez (talk) 07:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this issue straight to the talk page. What changes do you propose? Uirauna (talk) 13:43, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome. The reason I have put it here is to create improved fact based non-partisan article by consensus which is important for the article specially the consensus of old editors of this article. I propose that United States be removed from supporters of Iran section, since Iran was almost at war with US simultaneously. US navy was engaging Iranians as well being a party of an Iranian proxy war in Lebanon. These facts are enough to exclude US from strategic supporters of Iran. According to searches I have done there is plenty of credible references as well as first hand interviews with both US and Iranian officials which shows that Iran had received some equipments which were not huge, being at most a couple of airplane loads of spare parts and perhaps one or two F-4 fighter jets. All sources agree that these equipment were traded for American hostages in Lebanon some of whom were working for US government. The article should reflect this fact clearly so that readers do not assume US was a strategic supporter of Iran during the war. Also article has the capacity to be nominated for Wikipedia good articles, once improvements are done. There is also a need for a thorough copy editing as well as grammar correction. Thank You.--Irooniqermez (talk) 18:03, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Which side turned out the better from this war?

It dosen't seem like either side won a clear victory to the war. Even though Saddam was backed by many Western powers and the Iranians had just undergone a major revolution. 204.184.80.26 (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

9 years of fighting

In the beginning it says: making it the longest declared war of the twentieth century. That seems to be very strange. For e.g. the vietnam conflict was going more or less 30 years. And the war in north Corea pinciple is still today not official ended. And the war in Laos, and and and .. --Alias.n.b. (talk) 08:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

That´s POV pushing by a group of editors, the source is the title of a book on Amazon. I tried to remove it but did not want to go into an edit war. I say we remove it. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

A "group of editors"...As in a cabal? I would refer to your editing of this article as about as biased as they come. You originally removed the the statement of the Iran-Iraq war as the "longest declared war of the twentieth century," simply because your own highly personal POV didn't like it, regardless of the sources and policies of Wikipedia say. The Scythian 20:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Correct Alias.n.b.. In fact, you hit the nail on the head. The Vietnam "War" was not a declared war. It was a "conflict." It is a legal concept in international law. For instance, technically U.S involvement in Vietnam was not as a warring combatant per say, regardless of what it actually was to an observer who was there on the ground. The Scythian 20:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Nothing to do with my POV. The Korean War has so far not ended, only a ceasefire was signed, making it the longest war of the 20th century. Sorry, but no matter how many amazon book covers you provide, you can´t argue with facts. And if you want a reference, here it goes by Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/10/04/us-korea-idUSSEO15784020071004?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews. If you want to be accurate, it is not the longest declared war. If you want to mean conflict, it is not the longest conflict, there is no pov in this, just numbers. And about pov pushing, I´m not the one who was blocked for disruptive editing and pov pushing. If you believe I´m pov-pushing, please (and I repeat, please) report me to the admins, I´ll be quite happy to deffend my case there as I know that as usual you accusations do not stand. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh boy...The Korean War was not a "declared war," either. It is still an ongoing conflict. U.S involvement was as part of a U.N "policing force." As for books I provide to you listing it as the longest war of 20th century, that fits right into Wikipedia guidelines. You trying to argue otherwise is clear POV pushing, as is your editing history on this article. As for a 24 four hour ban, big deal. You got lucky. Next time around, it'll probably be you. The Scythian 00:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

It was declared war, you can argue as much as you want. Anyway, it is not something that I care about, I know that in the end enough editors will look at it and your edits will come down, just as they did in the "US as belligerent" issue. There's nothing about luck in that, you tried to push your pov, enter in an edit war, disrespect other user and as per WP guidelines was blocked. And again, if you think I'm pov-pushing or disrespecting you, please post me on the admin board. When I have enough time I'll open a RfC and resolve this issue. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 02:19, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing to argue. U.S involvement in the "Korean War" was as a member of a U.N collation in a policing action, sanctioned by UNSCR 84. The U.S never "declared war" on either North Korea or China, and likewise, they never returned the favor. If you disagree, which is something laughable to do about it at best, feel free to take it over to the Korean War discussion page. As for "disrespect," I would call your quick rush to get me blocked for 24hrs due to a 3RR violation absolutely pathetic, and it really shows your true purpose here. I've dealt with POV pushers on both sides of the aisle on this page. Nothing new. I look forward to the RfC, since there are plenty of sources referring to the Iran-Iraq War as such. The Scythian 04:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

While you might think of it as pathetic, the administrators didn´t, and I see you at least have learned the lesson, albeit the hard way. Anyway, this is not the place for such discussion. Goodbye and keep it civil. Uirauna (talk) 12:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

no "tactical Iranian failure"

Hi my name is Robert

I've been following recent changes made by a few individuals to this article. There are several individuals wishing to remove the phrase "tactical Iranian failure" in the summary results box. However, an individual signing in as Uirauna, seems to insist on inserting that phrase. The below is my explanation as to why that assertion should not be included to describe "the Results" of the war.

When it comes to this war, one cannot insist on the phrase "tactical failure" when it comes to the Iranian offensives, at least in its traditional sense. This is better understood, if the Iranian objectives are studied and observed for what they actuality were. The Iranian actions throughout the war were mostly constituted as defensive manoeuvres and not intended as a major offensive and or to capture/destroy new targets. To that end Iran was very successful.

My understanding also is that the war needs to be looked at objectively throughout the period which it lasted 1980-1988. The main objective of the Iraqi armed forces, under Saddam Hussein, was to invade and annex the oil rich state of Khuzestan in South West Iran. That objective failed shortly after the invasion and the war was in-fact fought for the rest of the war in Iraq until its end in 1988.

I also note that once the UN resolution of cease fire was accepted by both warring sides, Iran had to pull its troops back and evacuate Iraqi territory. To that end, I am not sure how one can argue a "tactical Iranian failure"? In any event, that assertion should not be placed in the summary results box, but rather, incorporated in the main article with the relevant specifics of the facts.

I will also, edit this section out in the article to reflect the above facts, and invite the active member to follow the above. I will, also send a copy of this correspondence to WP.

Hope this was helpful

Thanks

Rob —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.25.192.146 (talk) 01:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Robert. If the removal of such content is objected (as per WP:BRD), such people should take the issue to the talk page BEFORE making more changes (such as you did). That is edit warring and POV pushing. That content on the page has been a long standing consensus, so it would take a new discussed consensus to remove it, not a bunch of IPs randomly removing it. I welcome your decision to take it to the talk page, but I have reverted your changes as the issue is not yet settled. If we reach a new consensus (or something like it), I´ll gladly remove that content myself. Until then PLEASE STOP REMOVING IT. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 02:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi

As it stands, it's your word against the word of several. I have written a detailed explanation based on facts. You provide no facts and point to so called past "consensus". There is no consensus on that issue, since it never occurred.

So, unless you can provide a logical reason as to why it (the fictitious phrase "tactical Iranian failure") should stand, please STOP accusing people of Vandalism. If you resort to this word so liberally, you need to read up on what constitutes 'vandalism' in WP. I have read it several times; it certainly does not describe what has occurred here.

Unless someone else objects to the entry "Tactical Iranian Failure", I think what you are doing is in fact vandalism..!? The assertion that there was a "tactical Iranian failure" is actually wrong. What does it actualy mean? Once you explain it, you will note that it can not apply to a side defending itself from several fronts.

Regards

Rob —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.25.192.146 (talk) 02:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi again

FYI my account.

Rob — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robvanden (talk • contribs) 02:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The war was a disaster for both countries. Although Iran managed to repell the Iraqi invasion of Khuzestan, they did not actually defeat their enemy. The subsequent Iranian invasion of Iraq was a complete disaster, and in the end of the war Iraq pushed into Iran again and stroke a sereve blow against the Iranians, thought with high casualties on their own as well. The war ended in a stalemate, not an Iranian victory. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 19:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by a victory, since Iran simply defended her territory against an invading army, armed and trained by US and British governments. To that end Iran was victorious in its defence. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by Stalemate, since the objectives of the war were quite different. One failed in its objective to invade and to take lands away and the other succeeded in repelling and defending. Cheers. Rob (RobVanden 02:23, 30 March 2011 (UTC))

Stalemate does not mean reaching (or not reaching) objectives, but coming to a standoff where neither party cannot gain an advantage over the other and win the war. Another such example is the Korean War. Do you agree that despite local victories neither Iran nor Iraq were able to obtain a decisive advantage over the other allowing them to win the war? From 1983 on there was no significant gain for wither side, turning into an war of attrition that eventually lead to a cease fire. Also, Iran´s objective in the second phase of the war was to invade and dominate Iraq (as can be seen in the article itself, Iran used the mottos "War, War until Victory" and "The Road to Jerusalem Goes through Karbala" during the invasion). Also(2), I suggest that we remove some content from the results section, it is getting too crowded. Maybe keep just "Stalemate" and " Iraq invasion of Iran repelled" for simplicity. The rest of the information is detailed in the article. Also(3), please try to be civil, something you seem unable to do. Do not make false accusations. If you think I have a puppet, feel free to denounce me to the administrators, or else keep yourself quiet about such useless nonsense, there is no place for such behaviour here. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 03:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

First, I was and have been civil towards you. You just got used to getting your own way on everything thus-far. I'm here to tell you, that has come to an end.

Second, you sound exactly the same as your other alias (Mikrobølgeovn). I know you have your own agenda for this article. You won’t be successful; I can assure you of that.

Third, Iran never tried to gain an advantage over Iraq. It never invaded. Iran did however, seek to push back a relentless attack by US/UK armed and trained Iraq. To that end it was victorious. Even if Iran entered Iraqi territory, it was never to capture but rather as a defensive objective. Iraq repeatedly used Chemical and Biological weapons on Iranian soldiers and civilians, everytime Iran made rapid progress. These weapons were supplied to it by the US and UK.

Fourth, Just like the word Vandalism which you threw around so liberally in order to achieve your ends, the word stalemate should not be so liberally used here either. There are articles and published books available that specify why this war did not end in a stalemate. For instance, I'm not sure why you keep getting personal on this issue and failing to understand this simple concept: Here it is again: If Iraq invaded Iran and the war ended with Iran having to spend several weeks evacuating Iraqi territory, how is it that the war ended in a loss or a stalemate..!? Just leave it alone, my friend. (RobVanden 03:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)).

Hello, the result should be a stalemate. Had Iran accepted calls for a ceasefie by Saddam after his failed invasion, then it would have been a successful Iranian defence, hence an Iranian victory. However Ayatollah Khomeini decided to carry on the war with the objective of overthrowing the despicable, thuggish and brutal Saddam Hussein. Since Iran failed in this regard, one can argue that both countries failed their respective war objectives; therefore there was no victor. In the end, both countries had massive losses, with such an indecisive outcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mblur (talk • contribs) 12:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello, the result can not be a stalemate since Iran ended in a superior position than at the start of the war. Also, look at the 2003 bilateral agreement between the two countries, regarding causes of the war, the reparation payments by Iraq to Iran and the outcomes. Iraq has agreed to all Iran terms. (RobVanden 23:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)).

No you haven´t, you used plenty of name calling before creating your user account, just look at the page history. I am not "used to getting it my way", and and have no idea what you mean by "that has come to an end". You clearly do not know how to be civil toward others, but no problem, eventualy you will be punished for that. Also, once again please make no baseless accusations. You sound like a whole bunch of fanatical trolls who come here to push POVs, but still I respect you and do not accuse you of anything you didn´t do. You engange in edit wars, direct offenses to other people and still claim to be civil. You are not worth my time. The best thing about wikipedia is that in the long term, all POV-pushing, trolling and vandalism is reverted. I do not have an agenda in this article (once again, you can´t contain yourself on being uncivil and making baseless accusations), I couldn´t care less who got most destroyed in the war, or whose children were sent on stupid suicidal missions to clear minefields. I´m just here on my own time to try to keep the page away from trolls and vandals. I´ll let this issue rest, it means nothing to me. Just like many other issues it will eventually be resurfaced by other editors and then we shall talk again. Uirauna (talk) 13:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

You sound like a 5 year old kid who starts sulking if he doesn't get his way. First, stop pushing your agenda on the article with different aliases. Second, don't use words so liberaly which you have no idea what they really mean. I noticed that you were told this by other users in the past. Third, you sure are a stubburn person, just let it go man. You don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to this war. (RobVanden 23:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)).