Talk:Józef Piłsudski

Pilsudzki's views

So, how did Pilsudski move from being a revolutionary socialist to Polish nationalism and anti-communism?

Also, I've found at least one site (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWpilsudski.htm) which makes opposite claims about Pilsudski at Versailles (!). -- Pde 05:30, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think he really moved in the sence of changing his worldview. Socialists and communists have always opposed each other, and socialism does not exclude nationalism. In other words, Pilsudski wanted to create a socialist national (not to confuse with national socialist!) state -- rather than e.g. making it another soviet republic.

Lithuanian birthplace?

May we include the Pilsudski's birthplace name in lithuanian, in brackets or any other way? For even I, living here in Vilnius, don't know, where it is. Or, maybe, it's in Belorussia now? --Linas Plankis. Vilnius. 2004.01.06

I have no idea what's the lithuanized version, but the village is located some 60 km. NE from Wilno. AFAIK nothing to see there; the mansion does not exist anymore (burnt by the bolsheviks in 1920) and the only remnant is an oak tree planted in where Pilsudskis cradle once stood.Halibutt 08:41, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

EDIT/ Just found the lithuanian name - it's Zalavas. You can see a picture of the village here.Halibutt 08:45, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I understand it's a pre-war picture. Now it's a depressing, ruined kolkhoz and absolutely nothing to see apart from the oak tree Halibutt mentioned. I added the Lithuanian name as Linas asked. I also think there's no need to write a seperate article about that village, so I suggest changing Zulow from hypertext to plain text. Kpalion 15:26, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Fascist?

Pilsudzki was a dictator, granted. But a fascist? Can you give some source for that? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:33, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

He was the greatest Pole of all time and my great grandfather was proud to serve under him in the Polish Victory War of 1920 against Russia

Comments by anon user

10-31-2004: Jozef Pilsudski was never "president" of Poland. He was, immediately after World War I, literally "Chief of State" (Naczelnik Panstwa), akin to a dictator ad interim. The box below his portrait is gratuitous and misleading, as it introduces no new information of importance while slipping in inaccuracies, e.g. Pilsudski's legal wife when he was Chief of State was Maria, not Aleksandra. Likewise, calling him a "military officer" (he was one, though self-taught) is somewhat like calling Napoleon an "artilleryman." The current guide to pronouncing Pilsudski's name in English is inaccurate and unreadable. There are further inaccuracies and infelicities in the article as it stands, which it would be well to correct.

1. Jozef Pilsudski was never "president" of Poland - Indeed, "head of state" would be better. Also, he was chosen as a president of Poland but he did not accept it. So, technically speaking he was a president, but this is but a detail. Anyway, he is called "head of state" and "chief of state" throughout the article.
2. The box below his portrait is gratuitous and misleading, as it introduces no new information of importance - it is similar to boxes on most of important statesmen. Since most of them have now very long and detailed articles, the boxes are something in between the header (which gives only the most basic data) and the full article (which might be a tad too long for someone who only wants to check some facts and figures. Also, the boxes are a great help for those who print the articles.
3. Pilsudski's legal wife when he was Chief of State was Maria, not Aleksandra - corrected.
4. calling him a "military officer" (he was one, though self-taught) is somewhat like calling Napoleon an "artilleryman." - so, what profession you propose? If he had any, it was definitely an officer. One can hardly call "revolutionist" or "president" a profession.
5. The current guide to pronouncing Pilsudski's name in English is inaccurate and unreadable - what is inaccurate? Also, it is not a guide on how to pronounce the name in English since it is assumed that all users of English Wikipedia already know English language and know how they pronounce the name. The IPA code explains how the name should be pronounced in the original language - that is Polish. As such it is (to my knowledge) correct. I can't say it's unreadable either since IPA is used worldwide.
6. There are further inaccuracies and infelicities in the article as it stands, which it would be well to correct. - feel free to list them here or, even better, correct them yourself. This is wikipedia, all are equal and all can edit the articles :) Also, why don't you register? It's free and it's always better to speak with someone who has a name... [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:40, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

11-01-2004. Dear Mr. Halibutt,

Thanks for your response to my 10-31-2004 comments.

My objection to Pilsudski's career box is that his career doesn't lend itself to boxing. It is too complex for so simple a procedure--less analogous to the career of an ordinary president than to that of, say, Napoleon or de Gaulle, neither of whom (thank God) has a career box (though each is supplied with a generous "contents" box). Each--Napoleon and de Gaulle--is described as a "general and politician." In the case of de Gaulle, at least, I would prefer "statesman"--as I would also for Pilsudski, on whose career de Gaulle seems to have modeled his own. (Please see the English-language Wikipedia de Gaulle article, which provides a hint of circumstantial evidence for this assertion.)

My reference to pronunciation is, of course, to authentic Polish pronunciation, as presented to Anglophone readers in a way that they can readily absorb. What percent even of Wikipedia readers are conversant with IPA? How many will have the patience to look up an IPA table, or to interpret it? Though it may not be as "scientifically correct," why not use unambiguous English-language-based transliterations?

Perhaps I will attempt some revisions to the Pilsudski article. The subject deserves a good collaborative effort.

I may consider registering, though--apart from the practicalities of communication facilitation--the idea of monastic anonymity holds an appeal for me. Do you recommend use of full or partial name? initials? pseudonym? Any substantial pros or cons?

Thanks,

Anonymous

1. Dear anon, as to the statesmen box - I still believe it has more pros than cons. It's not designed for those who would like to know every single detail of Piłsudski's life. It's for those who want to know only what is said in the header and a tad more, but not too much.
2. As to his profession - I personally would like all of the following included: "revolutionary, journalist, officer, statesmam" all are true and any of them is true as well. Staesman is as good as the others, I'll change that.
3. As to IPA- there is no alternative to it so far. Either we want to give the reader a chance to find out how the name is pronounced or we try to make some approximation. English phonetics is not too good at representing other languages and there's little difference between the way a sound can be described using English phonetics and the way an average Brit or American would read the name. "English-based transliteration" is just as bad since it is both ambiguous and wrong. "Yoozehph Peewsootskee" can be read as either [juzεf piwsuʣki], [jʊzef piwsʊʦki], [ju:zəf piʍsʊʦki] or any other variation - none of which is correct. I added an .ogg pronounciation key for all those who are not able to read IPA, hope that helps.
4. Indeed, the article needs significant expansion and revision. It's great that there are people out there who are willing to help.
5. I appreciate your idea of monastic anonimity, it's not a thing you meet very often on the web. Of course it is much easier to talk to people who have some name (or a pseudo) since you can always check who they are on their user page or at least check their contributions to see what they do and how they do it. However, it's your choice and your contributions are equally welcome. Also, you might be interested in my recent article on Maria Piłsudska. I would like to add an article on the other Maria Piłsudska (his mother) one day as well.

-- [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:56, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

The statesmen box is a really useful tool for statistical info, used througout Wikipedia for similar purposes. I recommend we either leave it or expand it. I strongly recommend registering, if for no other reason that for people keeping a tab on article vandalism each 'anon IP edit' screams 'likely vandal, likely vandal' and I have to waste a little of my time checking what was done with the artcle. And as Halibutt wrote, once you have your own username here, we can talk and know who is it we are talking with (as in 'this is the guy who knows much about Pilsudzki'), and when I see your edit in the recent changes/history section I (hopefully) can just nod thinking ('another job well done') and don't have to bother checking the details of the edit looking for vandalism. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:05, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A bit hagiographics

The article could stand a little NPOVing, especially the part about the battle of Warsaw

What do you mean? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 20:06, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Tram stop Independence

This quotation looks in Polish language as follows: "Wysiadłem z czerwonego tramwaju na przystanku niepodległość". There was never a square named after Independence in Warsaw, neither in the times of Piłsudski, nor later. The square Logologist was probably referring to is Saski Sq. (Plac Saski), which wasn't renamed until after the war - to Victory Sq. (Plac Zwycięstwa). Currently it is known as Piłsudski Sq., by the way.

There of course is an Independence Avenue in Warsaw (Aleje Niepodległości), but the street was not built and named until after Polish-Bolshevik War, not to mention the moment when Piłsudski "got out of the red tramway". Oh, I forgot that there's also a tiny Independence Str. (Ulica Niepodległości) which was built some time in the 1960's.

So, all in all, the quote from Piłsudski is original, but I doubt it was wordplay on any actual place on earth, one should understand it more figuratively. Especially that at the moment of the famous Piłsudski's "getting out of tramway", all of Poland was still under foreign rule and I doubt any of the occupants liked the idea of Polish independence enough to name squares or streets after it. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 23:44, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Removed fragments by anon - vandalism or not?

198.81.26.7 did some editing, most of which I think border on vandalism. He deleted:

• the Commonwealth had given mutual protection to its constituent peoples against the Teutonic Order, the Mongols, the Russians, the Turks, the Swedes and other predatory neighbors until the partitions of the late 18th century. - note about Commonwealth past successes
• new democratic - reference that Poland was a democracy
• The adoption of a new Polish constitution in April 1935, tailored by Pilsudski's supporters to his specifications--providing for a strong presidency--came too late for Pilsudski to seek that office; but the April Constitution would serve Poland to the outbreak of World War II and would carry its Government in Exile through to the end of the war and beyond

I will add back 2 first parts, as I know they are correct. I will leave the third one for for those who know more about the April Constitution. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 09:36, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The third statement is correct too. It would not suffer from some more internal links though (like Polish Government in Exile, for instance). It was indeed a move towards stronger presidency, it was not changed until WWII and it was the legal basis for the existence of the Government in Exile. The exact explanation is that the April 1935 constitution gave the president the right to name his successor during the war. The successor took the office with the very moment the earlier president said so and was the head of state until the Peace Treaty is signed. As you probably know there was no peace treaty between Poland, Germany and the Soviet Union after the war. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:12, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Battle of Warsaw

Wouldn't it be appropriate to move paragraphs 4-6, under "Polish-Bolshevik War," to the article on the "Battle of Warsaw"? As they stand, these paragraphs seem a bit too detailed for inclusion in this article. Logologist 19:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Proposed ref

Would there be objections to add the following reference to an article?

• "Figures of the 20th century. Józef Piłsudski: The Boss who Created his State Himself", Zerkalo Nedeli (the Mirror Weekly), Feb. 3-9, 2001, available online in Russian and in Ukrainian.

I invite Polish editors who can read in one of the two of the languages above to take a look. The disadvantage is that it is neither in English nor in Polish. The advantage is that it is available online, readable by many editors likely to be interested, well-written, covers the topic broadly and presents another view on this figure from outside of Poland. Feel free of course, to add the ref yourself. --Irpen 22:14, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Damaged box

The article's bio-summary box presently reads: "{{{Office}}}." I was unable to insert: "Chief of State." Who knows how to make this repair? logologist 20:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Polish-Soviet War NPOV

The fourth paragraph needs some attention to get it to conform to NPOV and factual standards. Most notably the assertion that "The claim that the Russian invasion was a reaction to initial Polish attacks is an effort of communist propaganda to conceal its intentions in 1920" contradicts an earlier statement that "April 1920, Marshal Piłsudski (as his rank had been since that March) signed an alliance with Ukraine's Symon Petliura, to conduct joint war against Soviet Russia. The Polish and Ukrainian armies, under Piłsudski's command, launched a successful offensive against the Russian forces in Ukraine." The claim that Piłsudski saved Western Europe from Soviet invasion needs to cite supporting sources or better yet, have its own Wikipedia article describing this historical debate. Finally, the general tone of the paragraph is ardently Pro-Polish in its combination of justifying the Polish participation in the war, demonizing the U.S.S.R., and finally presenting the claim that Poland saved Western civilization.

And did it not? Halibutt 15:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

education, culture...

Why is there no informations about Pilsudski's contributions to Poland's education, culture, etc. ? The article is incomplete as it is.

Pilsudski's Nationality

Since Pilsudski was not born in Poland, but in the Russian Partition of the extinct PLC, and in the part that was historically Lithuania, is his nationality a subject of debate? Were his family polonized Lithuanians or Belarusians? Is there evidence, genealogically or otherwise, that the Pilsudskis emigrated to this region from the historic Polish "heartland"? Obviously the Marshall himself placed great sentiment on the region (mother's grave and so forth), but is his actual ethicity debatable. Scholarly information would be more appreciated than nationalistic (from any side) ranting. Dr. Dan 14:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It's been discussed ad nauseam (or ad mortem defecantam, as we say in Poland) here and there over the past two years. To make long thing short, Piłsudski himself stated that he was Lithuanian, though on other occasions he referred to himself as a Pole. However, he referred to GDL rather than Republic of Lithuania and there was no contradiction in being both Lithuanian (by heart or by heritage of the GDL) and Polish (as the majority of Lithuanian gentry). It was quite common back in his times and earlier, note Mickiewicz writing in Polish on Belarus called by him Lithuania)...

Piłsudski's surname itself was toponymical as his ancestors (that is the starost of Upita, previously known as Bartłomiej Ginwiłł or Ginet) adopted the name in 1539, after their home village of Piłsudy near Taurogi. [1], [2], [3]. Halibutt 23:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC}

Thank you, Halibutt, for the clearing the matter up somewhat. Please be patient with the stupid. Let me digress for a moment with an anecdote about the Czech composer Dvorak. There was a daily radio contest, (muzyka poważna), in my hometown; the announcer said here's an "easy question", and asked in what rural U.S. city, did Dvorak spend his summers in the late 19th century, while he was in the United States. A young boy called in and correctly stated that it was in Spillville Iowa. Again, there was a brief reference to the "ease" of the question, and the child received a prize of some sort. This entire exchange angered me so greatly that I emailed the jerk of an announcer, a piece of my mind. "THEY ARE ALL EASY QUESTIONS, IF YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS". He wrote back, Dear Doctor, you are right, I shall apologize to the boy.

Please keep in mind that whether it has been discussed "here and there over the past two years", or not, there may be a child (like in my story), or an older person who is being exposed to the question, and the answer for the first time in their life. Some patience, please. I have not given up on the idea that Wikipedia is a forum to educate, even though lately I am slightly dissapointed in that some have made it a forum for POV pushing, and nationalistic propaganda. I am also considering the possibility of certain elements, deliberately creating these divisions (like a non-Pole making an anti-Ukrainian remark in an article that would be "sensitive" to Ukrainians, while posing as a Pole). Spent some time in the PRL, and know that game.

You say "Pilsudski himself stated that he was Lithuanian... Not disputing this, but what is the source for that, please? Dr. Dan 00:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Dan, the "ad nauseam" remark was simply an explanation on why I don't have enough patience to repeat all of the arguments and replied in short. It was not meant to offend anyone, believe me.

As to Piłsudski claiming he was Lithuanian, there's a lot of such remarks in his works (read many of them, though not all as he was quite a fertile journalist prior to 1914). Once he said that "Lithuanian is the best version of a Pole", on other occasion he stated that "Poland is like a donut - empty in the middle and sweet along the rims" and was generally known for such cutting remarks. Imagine the faces of the Dmowski's nationalists when Piłsudski stated he's Lithuanian in the Polish Sejm... BTW, his Polish "Lithuanianess" was one of many serious problems the nationalists had with Piłsudski and many of them hated him for that ([4], for instance).

Anyway, barely any of his memoirs and collected works were translated to English, but you might want to check this and this. Almost any biographical note mentions he was Polish-Lithuanian (much like Czesław Miłosz, Adam Mickiewicz and many, many more people. Halibutt 13:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I consider you highly intelligent, and a gentleman. When, and if I get "huffy", please do not take offense. None is meant. As you know, I'm a newer participant in Wikipedia, and I am not always aware of what has been discussed, or "resolved" in the past. I can imagine the frustration in sometimes having to have to recapitulate some of this information. Keep in mind that someone may be reading an article about "cabbages and kings", for the first time in their life, today. None of us should take for granted what the other knows, or does not know. If you knew me better, you would know that Nothing, and I mean Nothing, is more important to me than fairness, and a lack of bias, in generally all aspects of life. In the world we live in, it ain't easy!. The last place I want to see it, is in what I think is a great project, namely Wikipedia. I look forward to working together in the future to make our contributions less argumentative. In fact, I have lots I want to add to, and edit, that is far from this part of the world. There are still some aspects of POV pushing and propaganda, that I have to resolve, before I leave this area. I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers. I'm curious if you agree, that lots of what I perceive to be excessive bias and manipulation of history to have some merit? And I'm not referring to the names of towns and villages in Polish, either. In any case, I'm sure we'll be talking. Dr. Dan 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC) p.s. I really never heard of Stefan Rowecki, until I read the article a day or so ago.

Pictures

Some - from the time of PSW war - are certainly PD. Do we nee them? Article is in French, but I am pretty sure I can translate the captions :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Prokonsul, the pictures look great. I like that the French used both names, Wilno/Vilnius, in the appropriate caption. Dr. Dan 01:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep, it's good to do so on the first use of such names in the article (but never in the article title - it looks horrible then, at least for me). Let me know which pics captions I should translate and add to the article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)