Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Zoo TV Tour/archive1

Zoo TV Tour

Zoo TV Tour (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Zoo TV Tour/archive1

Nominator(s): Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe the article, after much work by the WikiProject U2, meets the Featured Article criteria. The article is about one of the most well-covered and documented tours in popular music. The tour represents part of U2's reinvention in the 1990s, something I consider an extremely interesting subject, and the article focuses on the band during one of their peaks in commercial popularity. I believe the article is comprehensive, well organized, and well written in covering such a detailed topic. It would make a suitable companion to the Achtung Baby article that reached FA status last year. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Source comments - preliminary, I'll likely add more later

• Newspaper and magazine citations that don't include weblinks should include page numbers
• Be consistent in whether you provide publishers for newspapers/magazines
• Ref 24 and similar: what type of source is this?
• Ref 60: page(s)?
• What makes this a reliable source? This? This?
• Retrieval dates are not required for courtesy links to print-based sources, but if you want to include them you must be consistent in doing so
• In general, reference formatting needs to be more consistent. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:20, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

• Page numbers aren't available for every magazine/newspaper article. Many of the articles were obtained from a U2 fan site that reprints the articles without page numbers. Aside from their availability from this fan site (which may or not pose copyright issues if cited in the article), I'm willing to bet many of the publications have been out of print for so long that no archival system would have the articles or their page numbers referenced.
• Isn't the policy that a publisher should be provided for lesser-known publications? That was my impression. Are there any newspapers/magazines you would consider lesser-known that need the publishers added?
• Ref 24 and similar references are short documentaries that appear as bonus features on the Zoo TV: Live from Sydney DVD (see that entry in the Bibliography)
• Ref 60 - there's no specific page that needs to be cited, the reference is merely to the book as a whole to point out it exists as a record of BP Fallon's time on Zoo TV.
• U2Wanderer and Men-Access have been removed. Our project has always thought U2Gigs to be reliable - U2 themselves ascertained the validity of the website by citing it in the liner notes of the Dutch version of their 2009 album No Line on the Horizon.
• Retrieval dates should have been added to every reference with a external link.

That's it for now. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 01:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

More sourcing stuff:

• Why no page numbers for Fallon?
• Most of the articles without page numbers are from the 1990s and early 2000s, so I'm reasonably sure that page numbers are obtainable. For example, page number for Dalton 2004 is 52.
• Be consistent in how you notate multiple authors and how you punctuate editors
• I'm not American, so to me a lot of these publications are "lesser-known". Keep in mind you've got an international audience here. That being said, I would prefer that formatting be consistent rather than giving every possible piece of information.
• Is there a way to make the DVD references clearer?
• Do you have a wiki discussion link for U2Gigs? FAC or RSN would be best, although in-project discussion might work
• Volume/issue number for ref 137 and similar? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

My responses to the above:

• As I mentioned above, the Fallon reference is not to any part of his book, but rather to the book as a whole, just to indicate that the book exists as a record of Fallon's time on the Zoo TV Tour.
• Where'd you get the page number for the Dalton reference? I've tried to get all the page numbers possible, and have been limited by the fact that I don't have access to any archival systems that would have this information. I'll have to ask fellow members of the U2 WikiProject if they can assist. If the page numbers cannot be obtained, would it be acceptable to remove them from all the references for the sake of consistency?
• Consistent author/editor formatting should be addressed now.
• I've added publishers where applicable - please let me know if this is satisfactory.
• I've added "(DVD documentary)" in between the name of the documentary and the name of the DVD.
• A past discussion from the 1st FAC to No Line on the Horizon might help explain why we believe U2Gigs to be reliable.
• I don't have a volume/issue number for that article, and anything else that is missing an issue/volume number is something I could not obtain without access to some archival database. As I mentioned, I'm asking that other members of the U2 WikiProject that may be able to access a database to assist.

That's it for now. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 07:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I just Googled the reference to get the page number; you can try that for a few of them, see how far you can get. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what keywords you used to search to get the page number for Dalton, as I was unable to do it. In any case, I got some information back from fellow U2 WikiProject members that I've added to the article. For a few articles, the archived versions provided the start page and the amount of pages in the article, but that doesn't get me to the range, as magazines frequently complete their stories later in the publications or can have advertisements interrupting the article. In those situations, is it OK, if I just indicate the page numbers as, for example, "40+", to indicate the article starts on page 40 and features multiple pages after that? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess that might work if you really can't find the correct page ranges. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

• General Comment. While the article is quite good and very detailed, I'm unsure if the subject matter lends itself to FAC's 'completeness' idea without getting pretty far off the topic of the tour and into the bands development before (during the recording of Auchtung, Baby) and after/unrelated cotemporanious time. If others feel the article meets the technical criteria, I certainly do not oppose FA. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Support. I think this is a decent article as it stands, but given that Zoo TV is one of the most creative/written about/'important' concert tours of all time, some things should be addressed before it achieves FA status:

• Some lesser-known links need to be repeated later in the article when they occur again, per WP:REPEATLINK. No one should have to hunt several sections backwards in the article to find the link for Mark Pellington, David Wojnarowicz, or Steel Wheels Tour, for example. On the other hand, common (in this context) names such as Bono and the Edge only need to be linked once.
• The presence of several Zoo TV characters (such as MacPhisto) and scenes in the 1995 "Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me" video needs to be restored to the article. Per Cogan pp 192–193, this was a key, lasting indication that crystallized the importance of Zoo TV.
• U2's Vertigo Tour homage to (or reprise of) Zoo TV needs to be restored to the Legacy section, where it was for a long time. Again, this aptly illustrates the lasting effect of Zoo TV's imaging of some of the Achtung Baby songs.
• The episode where a fan climbed onstage in order to philosophically question MacPhisto and Bono announced to the audience that the situation was straight out of C. S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters needs to be restored to the article. As sourced by Scharen p. 197, this illustrates some of the literary themes running through the tour. The episode was previous removed by an editor who said "What are the Screwtape Letters?", but in fact this work is not obscure and a theatrical adaptation just had a nine-month run on Broadway.
• One of the things lost in the article is the distinction of what Bono and the group members were saying at the time of the tour about their fame and adopted personas and so forth versus what they have said in retrospect. Bono's Zoo Radio reference to himself as "licensed to be an egomaniac" should be restored to the article as well as his USA Today interview quote as the tour began that unlike the U2 of the 1980s, he had no intention of resisting the overload of fame on the Zoo TV Tour: "Oh, but it's fun to be carried away by the hype. Where would you be without the hype?... You can't pretend all the promotion and all the fanfare is not happening." In other words, it's important to convey that in the publicity accompanying the tour, in addition to the show itself, the band were explicitly reversing their audiences' previous conceptions of them.
• I think Bono's on-stage statement about U2's debt to Lou Reed (something like "Every U2 song is a rip-off of Lou Reed") needs to be restored to the article. The point is that the inclusion of "Satellite of Love" was more meaningful to the band than just a clever allusion to the TV theme.
• I think the importance of the tour's presentation to "One"'s increasing popularity at the time needs to be brought out better, although I don't have a ready-made source or text for this.
• The statement "During the first week of the tour, media outlets reported that the words shown included "Bomb Japan Now", which the band denied.[68]" is kind of unsatisfying and jarring to the flow of that paragraph. Was it there or not? If no one knows for sure, so be it, but maybe the sentence should be in parentheses.
• This is an unattributed quote: "... while others misinterpreted the tour's mocking excess, thinking "that U2 had 'lost it' and that Bono had become an egomaniac" ". The article used to say that this was VH1's Legends series' assessment of fan reaction. Why was the attribution removed?
• The last sentence in the lead, "Critics have called it one of the most memorable tours in rock history.", is too limiting. It's not just critics who think this. The topic sentence in the Legacy section is better: "The Zoo TV Tour is regarded as one of the most memorable tours in rock history." I think one or two of the quotes that follow that should be duplicated into the lead as well, to give substance to the statement.
• I'd give some thought to bolding "Outside Broadcast", "Zooropa", and "Zoomerang/New Zooland" in the lead, as alternate names for the tour (see the prominence of the name in the infobox poster, for example) and I think some of them are redirect targets.

There are some other aspects of the article that I wish were a little different, but the ones above are the most important. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

In response to your concerns:

• Underlinking for some subjects fixed.
• "Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me" video concern resolved.
• The Zoo TV reprise on the Vertigo Tour was something that was in the article for a while, but I could never find any reference that explicitly mentioned the segment of the shows as being a homage to Zoo TV. I don't know that it is essential, though, because many of the songs from the Zoo TV era have maintained similar live presentations throughout their live history and not just on the Vertigo Tour.
• I've mentioned the Screwtape Letters comparison Bono makes in the "MacPhisto" section, although with a bit of different wording and using Flanagan as the reference.
• "egomaniac" quote added to "The Fly" section, "hype" quote added to the "Fan reaction" section.
• Lou Reed details added.
• I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at for the supposed relationship between "One" and Zoo TV - until a reference is found for what you're saying, I can't see it being added.
• "Bomb Japan Now" statement clarified.
• VH1 Legends quote attributed.
• "most memorable" statement in lead fixed.
• Leg names bolded.

Let me know if there is anything that didn't address your concerns. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 01:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for these additions. I've made a few changes related to them in the article as you have seen. Will see what I can come up regarding for the Vertigo Tour reprise and "One". Wasted Time R (talk) 03:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

FYI I've scanned in four more of my photos from the Veterans Stadium show. File:Zoo TV Tour 1992-09-03 Veterans Stadium Preshow.jpg shows the stage before the show, although I kind of like the atmospherics of the Lisbon one you put in better. File:Zoo TV Tour 1992-09-03 Veterans Stadium pic c.jpg (not sure which song) and File:Zoo TV Tour 1992-09-03 Veterans Stadium pic d.jpg ("One" I think) are from early in the show and File:Zoo TV Tour 1992-09-03 Veterans Stadium pic f.jpg ("Streets") is from late in the show. I added one of them to the article but see what you think about which ones if any should be used. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:56, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "One", it was released as a single at the same time the tour began, and I believe the tour helped "One" shift from being perceived as an attractive but somewhat bitter, melanchony ballad to also being seen as an anthem and taking on the additional meanings and connotations it has today (the ONE campaign, etc). If you look at early videos from the tour or at the photo I put up, you can see a few fans with lighters on during the song; if you look at the Sydney video near the end of the tour, they are everywhere (and now mobile phones in tours hence). Part of this evolution was just the growing impact of the song, but I think part was also the effectiveness of the tour's visual/emotional/musical/communal presentation of the song (the words, the video, the stills, the association with David Wojnarowicz who died during the tour, the popular "Hear Us Coming" coda emerging midway through the tour, etc). "One" is one of the most popular songs ever and I think this article should try to say a little more about its role during the tour. Unfortunately I haven't found much in the way of sources yet to support these points ... Wasted Time R (talk) 17:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I still haven't found what I'm looking for, so to speak (fan sites talk about "Hear Us Coming" a lot, but professional writers seem oblivious to it), so my "One" comment is best put aside for another time. I see you're agreeable to a couple of the photos, and all my other concerns have been resolved, so I am now supporting this article for FA status. If ever a concert tour merited an FA-level treatment, it is Zoo TV. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for all your efforts (and the photos, too!). It is great to see you contributing again after the disagreements we had a while back. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 04:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Quick comments Why the references in the lead? Review for overlinking: arenas, stadiums, radio shows, mass media, cable television, crank calls, pop culture, highways throughout the article. The Leg 4 table: overlinking of band names.—indopug (talk) 09:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

References in the lead were removed (they had been there for potentially contentious statements). Everything you mentioned for overlinking, aside from crank calls (which I thought was a relevant link to have and might not be familiar to all) was removed. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 01:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Image review

• File:U2ZooTVTour.jpg is missing copyright information
• US does not have freedom of panorama for 3D works, so the painted cars are not correctly licensed and may have to be removed
• File:U2_at_Cardiff_Arms_Park.jpg is missing copyright information, and a ticket is not a poster. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The ticket and poster images have had the copyright/free-use rationales tweaked, so please check again if you will. As for the image of the Trabants from the Rock and Roll HOF, I didn't think there was an issue with this, as it passed review during the 2nd Achtung Baby FAC. The US view on freedom of panorama excludes artwork in public places, but the Trabants served a functional purpose on the tour, as they were part of the stage's lighting system, so that elevates them above mere art. Also, can the painters really claim that by painting the cars, they have manipulated them enough to own copyrights over the cars' depictions, when without the paint jobs, the cars are likely fair game for being photographed? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

"Copyright does not protect the mechanical or utilitarian aspects of such works of craftsmanship. Copyright may, however, protect any pictorial, graphic, or sculptural authorship that can be identified separately from the utilitarian aspects of an object". Nikkimaria (talk) 20:44, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I've removed the image of the Trabant taken in the US. In its place, I'm now using the Trabant image that was taken in Germany, where there is freedom of panorama. Can you please recheck the other 2 images you mentioned, as well as the others yet to be reviewed? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 12:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)