Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Third Summers brother

Third Summers brother

Third Summers brother (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Delete - not a notable concept. There are no reliable third-party sources that include significant coverage of this (currently) non-existent, theoretical, character. The only sources currently cited are an unreliable fansite and a former forum that no longer exists, so that the little possibly factual information about this character theory is unverifiable. No Google results other than additional fansites. Great swaths of the article are original research. I realize that fans of the genre like to have every facet covered in complete detail but this material is suited for an X-Men wiki, not Wikipedia. It doesn't begin to approach meeting inclusion standards. Harley Hudson (talk) 20:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

• Keep, some sources can be found such as previews, reviews and interviews. The term "third Summers brother" is used in them. Other sources could certainly be found with only "Summers brother" and be added to complete the sources. The creation concept is interesting, the idea of an other brother is suggested by an author and various artists use it. In an universe like Marvel, the processus of writing a new story and take into account all that has been written before is quite difficult. In this article, we can see the insertion of new characters to answer an enigma launched by a previous author and in the same time the perilous exercice to insert them in the continuity currently in existence.--Crazy runner (talk) 15:02, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• All of the in-universe interest in or difficulty around the topic is not relevant to whether there are independent reliable sources that significantly cover the topic (as opposed to simply using the term). If you could offer some examples of such sources that would be appreciated since all I've seen are blogs and fansites which do not meet the standard for sources. Harley Hudson (talk) 16:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I have already added some sources which use the term "third Summers brother". If the term is used in interviews and reviews (ex Comic Book Resources), it gives notability to the concept of an additional brother. Any source about a new character that could be a Summers brother can be added to the article. If you want a source which makes a review of the possible third summers brother, read this one [1].--Crazy runner (talk) 21:49, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that perhaps you are not understanding the notability guideline. There need to be multiple independent reliable sources that are significantly about the subject of the article. If the sources only "use" the term then they are not offering significant coverage of the subject. If the sources are not reliable, in that they are fansites and blogs, then they don't meet the standard. I would not argue the point that there are sites on the Internet that make mention of this character concept. But those mentions do not rise to the level of significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources that Wikipedia expects for its articles. The citations that you're offering are fansites and blogs for the most part and even if they weren't their coverage of the concept "third Summers brother" is limited to a sentence or two, and in some cases just a single sentence. Take for example this review of a collection from GeeksofDoom (an unreliable blog to begin with) which addresses the concept of "third Summers brother" in a sentence and a half. Or this chat transcript (which has verifiability issues) which contains a single question about the concept out of some 50 questions asked. And the rest of the various cites currently in the article and elsewhere are all more of the same. If there were truly reliable sources that did actually cover this concept in a significant fashion then these cites might serve possibly to fill in some blanks but to serve as indicators of notability they are simply not sufficient. Harley Hudson (talk) 22:16, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

A book is used as a source for the meeting between Sinister and Scott Summers. Comic Book Resources presents the concept of the third brother and it is well developped. In an interview with IGN, editor Nick Lowe explains that the mention of the third summers brother allows to boost the sales of Deadly Genesis. They are sources and good ones. They are the main sources and the others are only filling the blanks and you can read in a lot of them the importance of the "third summers brother". And I do not like "The citations that you're offering are fansites and blogs for the most part". Most part come from CBR, IGN and ComicsAlliance.--Crazy runner (talk) 14:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The book cites a single page out of a 186 page book and it is used to source dialogue from the comic book. This CBR reference includes two sentences about the concept. This CBR reference is an article about comics "urban legends" and offers limited coverage of the concept. This CBR source contains the single sentence "Who is the third Summers brother and what happened to him?" This blog source's coverage of the concept is a whopping eight words: "Originally intended to be the Third Summers Brother". These sources, unreliable as they are, establish that the character concept exists. No one is disputing that the concept exists. However, the concept is not supported by significant sources. Significant sources is not "it's mentioned on one page in a book" or "a blogger wrote a couple of sentences about it" or "I'm a fan and this is really important." Harley Hudson (talk) 14:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

At your sentence "offers limited coverage of the concept", I answer it is your opinion not mine. Is Adam-X notable ? Is Vulcan notable ? Have they been named the third summers brother during an interview or a review ? Have they been link to the story of Fabian Nicieza ? The answers are yes to all. Before saying "I'm a fan and this is really important.", you should read the interview, it is written something like "us editors use this concept to boost our sales". Some sources provide by only few sentences in an interview or in the beginning of a review the importance of the concept. Some sources provide by long paragraphs enought coverage to justify nearly all the sentences of the Wikipedia article. To "These sources, unreliable as they are", I answer that CBR receives many Awards, Comic Book Legends Revealed is a section of CBR that is published in books, IGN is widely used as a source on wikipedia and ComicsAlliance was nominated to the Eisner Awards.--Crazy runner (talk) 19:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, funny. If it is something not notable why is there someone who has decided to make a book about the subject ? [2]. Too bad that they used some pages of wikipedia.--Crazy runner (talk) 19:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Are Adam X and Vulcan notable? I have no idea. The question is irrelevant to whether this article meets Wikipedia's guidelines or not. The book you cite is not a reliable source exactly because it uses Wikipedia content. Harley Hudson (talk) 23:53, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I know about the book that is exactly what I have said. For information, on wikipedia, there are pages about codenames, nicknames shared by notables comic characters. Some of them are used only as a disambiguation page, others develop more if there is a link between them. The sources prove that "third summers brother" as been used by artists, editors to qualify these characters that are notables. It gives a notability to it. As the sources prove that the denomination has been linked to the story written by Fabian Nicieza, it is normal that the article presents the story and different characters that fall under this denomination. Anyway, we are going nowhere, two opposite points of view. You think that is not notable and you qualify CBR, IGN and ComicsAlliance as unreliable. In some sources, you see a couple of sentences when I see paragraphs to justify the wikipedia article. You see a big Fan or Blogger saying "this is important" when I see an Editor (he is certainly a big fan but it is irrelevant). We certainly need other opinions on the subject. To finish on a good point, we are only agree that some minor sources are only here to fill the blanks.--Crazy runner (talk) 05:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

All of these sources are minor, because that's what one or two sentence sources are, minor. The sources establish that this character concept exists but existence is not notability. That other pages exist on Wikipedia is irrelevant, since each article needs to have independent reliable sources that significantly cover the subject. "Some comics writers use 'third Summers brother'" does not take the concept into notability and any notability that characters that may have been bootstrapped under the concept have doesn't confer any notability on the concept. Harley Hudson (talk) 06:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I can read paragraphs with illustrations in this source [3] not one or two sentences. In my opinion, the denomination has a notability because it is used to qualify notable characters and it is used by artists and editors. This denomination is coming from the concept. Do you want a disambiguation page without explaining the links between the denomination and the characters ? When the concept is used to boost sales, I find it quite notable. The discussion is not progressing. At the beginning, the sources were coming from fansites and blogs, I give sources used on wikipedia that are reliables, sites with awards, you find them unreliables. At the beginning, it was a codename used by fans, I give sources that show artists and editors using this denomination, you reject it. At the beginning, it was just fans which find it important, I give a source which shows that it has been used to promote a series, you reject it. We certainly need other opinions on the subject.--Crazy runner (talk) 09:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

"Marvel uses it to sell books" doesn't make the concept notable. "In this issue, an X-Man dies!" has been used to boost sales for any number of individual issues and storylines. Does that make "Dead X-Man" a notable concept for an article? No. Harley Hudson (talk) 16:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the article Comic book death or List of dead comic book characters should not exist ?--Crazy runner (talk) 17:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm suggesting that being used as the basis for a marketing push for a story arc does not serve as an underpinning for a legitimate Wikipedia article. Harley Hudson (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

A comic book death of a particular character can be described in the character article that has died and can be put in relation with the article that explains the concept of a comic book death. I have got the impression in your last comment that you are concentring the attention on a single argument. If it was the only one, no problem I will be agree with you but it is not the case. If there were only two characters, the information could be included in Vulcan, the character most known as the third brother but it is not the case. If the characters were not notable, there would not have been an article about this concept but it is not the case. If I am reading well the sources, multiple notable characters were used to answer a question that is considered as an important question created in the main Marvel continuity. If I am reading well the sources, the term "third summers brother" is used to qualify this concept by artists and editors and used in relation with the notable characters presented in this article. If I am reading well the sources, it has been used to improve the sales of a notable series. Are there reliable sources which covered the essential information of the article ? (some with paragraphs about the subject, others with a few lines to fill the blanks) Yes, so it works for me. --Crazy runner (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

• (outdent) The notability of characters who were at one time identified as or speculated as possibly being the fulfillment of this theoretical character concept has no bearing on whether the concept itself is supported by independent reliable sources that significantly cover the concept. "Here's a sentence that uses the term" and "here's a paragraph with a picture of the panel where Sinister says 'third brother'" and "here's two sentences in an interview" are trivial passing mentions of the sort specifically excluded by WP:GNG as contributing to a subject's notability. And most of the proffered sources are not about the concept "third Summers brother" but are instead about characters who were at some point or another speculated to be the "third Summers brother" or who were put forward as being a Summers brother but not the third brother to which the concept refers. The article itself ironically says it best. It was a throwaway line in a comic book that caught fan attention so a few Marvel writers played with the concept for a couple of characters. And that's all it is. Harley Hudson (talk) 22:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

You should read the article and the sources. The concept "third Summers brother" refers to another member of the Summers family, it has never been proved that there are only three brothers. So this article is not about the third Summers brother. The concept is commonly called "third Summers brother". Some sources present the concept and the different characters created to answer this problematic. Some sources are only passing mentions, used to fill the blanks. The sources show that the term is used by reliable sources, artists, editors to demonstrate the links between these notable characters and the work done by artists to answer the concept of another member of the Summers family. One of the character has been chosen to be the third Summers brother in the main continuity, others have been speculated due to the plot in main continuity and linked in alternate continuities, others have been speculated and the writer could not finish his job. Are these characters are notables ? Are the readers have read the notable comic books, series in which the writers try to answer the concept of the third brother ? When the Summers link was not proven by the plot, has it been verify during interviews by quote from the writers themselves ? Is the denomination has been used to boost some sales ? Yes to all. About the sources, at the maximum, you see only one paragraph when some sources contain more than that. The sources are used to verify most of the material in the article, the majority of them are reliables. I didn't realise that the wikipedia article was made of only one paragraph, two sentences and a picture. When a writer says that he tried to answer the concept of another Summers in his story, it is not anymore a speculation, it is a fact.--Crazy runner (talk) 23:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Um...I have read the article and the so-called sources. I really don't understand where the disconnect is for you between "used in a source" and "significant coverage". All kinds of things are used in sources; that mere mention doesn't contribute to notability. I also don't understand where the disconnect is for you between the notability of an individual character that may or may not have been suggested as a possible brother and the concept "third Summers brother" itself. The notability of the character Vulcan means nothing toward the notability of the concept "third Summers brother". The notability of the character Adam X means nothing toward the notability of the concept. Fan speculation means nothing toward the notability of the concept. In-universe speculation means nothing toward the notability of the concept. Harley Hudson (talk) 00:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, the notability of the series and the characters which tried to answer the concept is important otherwise what it is the interest to write an article if nearly no one has read one of the plot presented in the article. During an interview when a writer says that he tried to answer the concept of another Summers in his story, it is not anymore a speculation, it is a fact. Can you find reviews to justify the plots ? Can you find sources to justify that some characters have been intended to be another Summers brother ? Have you got sources that discuss most of the wikipedia article to justify that you are not creating an original work ? For me, it is a yes. The concept is linked to notable plots, artists and characters. The sources described it as an important question for the readers. The notability is proven by the sources. Most of the article is referenced by reliable sources. For me, it is always a Keep.--Crazy runner (talk) 01:16, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

As I have already told you, we certainly need other opinions on the subject because you have your opinion, you see something, I have my opinion and I see something else.--Crazy runner (talk) 01:25, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

CBR and UXN, listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/Marvel Comics work group#Resources, are used as the two main sources of the article. They proved that it is not an original work grouping plots, reviews and interviews.--Crazy runner (talk) 01:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Just for information, before this deletion talk, there were talks about a merging of this article with Vulcan Talk:Vulcan (Marvel Comics)#i propose a merge and Talk:Vulcan (Marvel Comics)#Second Merge Proposal with the conclusion of non merging.--Crazy runner (talk) 11:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

• Delete There is no evidence that the topic itself, third Summers brother, is covered in reliable third-party sources or that it is a notable plot point. There are only trivial mentions at best and, per the general notability guideline, significant coverage is more than a trivial mention. The references used within the article barely mention the third Summers brother and none explain its relevance as a plot point. The one source that covers in detail the topic is an unofficial fansite, same as the external links. With no real-world context about why the plot point is relevant outside of the X-Men continuity, the article is mostly a plot-only description of a fictional work that does not meet general notability guideline and should not be kept in Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a fansite. Jfgslo (talk) 22:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

• CBR covers in detail the topic and it is not a fansite.--Crazy runner (talk) 06:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Of the the references used within the article, only one touches the topic, while the others, a preview and interviews with Yost and Nicieza, are trivial mentions that barely talk about it and do not show how is the topic notable from a real-world perspective. And the one reference that talks about, only recounts the history behind the concept but does not give analysis or commentary about the importance of the plot point itself, not even from the X-Men continuity point of view. The CBR references do not offer real-world context or sourced analysis for the fictional plot point and they do not represent significant coverage because it is only one source. CBR may be reliable but the references used do not show how the third summer brother is a notable plot point. Jfgslo (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Keep, coverage in secondary sources justifies retaining. Also worthwhile to give interested parties opportunity to improve upon the sourcing and expand relevant material, perhaps to revisit quality later. -- Cirt (talk) 06:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Specifically which secondary sources? The fansites? The self-published blogs? The ones that mention the concept in single sentences and which contain no substantive information? Harley Hudson (talk) 11:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• KEEP: I agree with Crazy runner in his arguments to keep the article. The key point is that the article is about a concept and not a specific person. It is called "Third Summers brother" because a third brother was not introduced until recently, and once he was introduced it made no sense to change it to "Additional Summers brothers" because the original term had been around for so long. Furthermore, Crazy runner has done an amazing job since the article was nominated for deletion to add appropriate references to the article. Before he added those references the argument was weak to delete the article, but there is no basis for deletion with those references now included. Spidey104 13:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• The basis for deletion remains the same, that there are no independent reliable sources that significantly cover this subject. A one-sentence mention on a blog is not significant reliable coverage. A couple of paragraphs in a longer general article are not significant coverage. Whether the article is about a specific character or the general concept makes no difference. Harley Hudson (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• KEEP I also agree with Crazy runner.
• In direct response to Harley's most recent comment: You ask for reliable references. Crazy runner provided reliable references. You now claim they are not reliable enough. The next step would be to delete at least half of the articles on Wikipedia based on your hyper-specific definition of reliable.
• If the arguments for deletion win out over the arguments against deletion then the information in the article should be merged rather than lost. Yes, I realize there have been merge discussions before that ended in consensus to not merge, but those were conducted under the natural assumption that both articles would continue to exist. I think all editors that were against the merge before would not be for the merge instead of losing the article's information completely. Vulcan would be the best location for this merge, but obviously I think keeping it as a separate article would be better. Kurt Parker (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Please do not distort my position. What I have said all along is two-fold: that many of the sources offered are not reliable per Wikipedia's guidelines; and that regardless of the reliability of the offered sources their coverage of this concept does not constitute significant coverage. My "hyper-specific definition of reliable" is exactly the same as Wikipedia's. My definition of significant coverage is exactly the same as Wikipedia's. Single-sentence mentions on blogs are neither reliable nor significant. Not every single line of dialogue in a comic book needs its own article, regardless of how many comics fans think that they should. Harley Hudson (talk) 16:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Delete I'm sorry, this reads as either WP:OR or WP:SYNTH to present a fan based theory to explain an in story plot hole/conflict. The references provided are problematic and don't really show notability.
  • Ultimate X-Men is only used to establish the Cyclops and Havok are related.
  • "X-POSITION Week 22" (CBR) is something that in the grey area of reliability regarding secondary sources for comics, but it mentions this topic in passing, at best.
  • "The Most Bizarre Superpowers In Comics" (ComicsAlliance) is also in that area, but it doesn't fully support what it is attached to as a reference. It is another "in passing" reference to the "theory"
  • "THIRD SUMMERS BROTHER" (UncannyXmen.Net) is not a reliable source under Wikipedia guidelines.
  • "Comic Book Legends Revealed #217" (CBR) is about the best source listed, but it deals with a single character, not the entire theory.
  • "CBR Chat Transcript: Fabian Nicieza" is a non-reference.
  • "Marvel Previews for 5/10: "X-Men: Deadly Genesis" #6, "Annihilation: Super-Skrull" #2 & More" is a Marvel solicit, not a reliable source for this.
  • "Comic Review: Uncanny X-Men: Rise and Fall of the Shi’ar Empire" (Geeks of Doom) is questionable under Wikipedia guidelines and provides only a passing mention of the theory.
  • "X-Men: Second Coming Damage Report - Act 2" (IGN) Would be a good source but provides nothing.

So we are left with a non-notable topic and an article made up of unsourced theorizing and a spattering od plot and at least one unattributed quote. There is nothing here worth keeping. - J Greb (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

"Comic Book Legends Revealed #217" A single character really ?:

"The third Summers Brother was originally going to be Adam X The X-Treme!"

"A few years back, Ed Brubaker revealed in the pages of X-Men: Deadly Genesis that the third Summers brother was this fellow named Vulcan, who was the son of Christopher and Kate Summers (he was torn from the womb and incubated by the Shi’ar)."

"Chris Claremont gave HIS take on who the third Summers brother should be when he revealed in his alternate future series, X-Men: The End, that Gambit was the third brother. Of course, though, that was an alternate reality."

"Robert Weinberg was going to reveal that Apocalypse was actually the third Summers Brother!"

85.171.171.184 (talk) 23:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Try to remember that finding good sources is problematic as the title of the article. It could be "Additional Summers Brother", "Summers Brother". Crazy runner seems to have concentrate on the use of "Third Summers Brother" in interviews to give importance to the concept and show that is more than a fan theory. I have a question for all of you. Have you watched the pages of Template:X-Men ? Except for the main characters, have you got reliable sources about the article subject and only the article subject ? Most of the time, there are only some sentences in reviews and interviews. It seems to be the same configuration for "Third Summers Brother". What proves the notablility of these characters ??? Notability of the series, the authors, the number of appearances ??? I defy you to prove only one reliable source about the character for each one of the characters in Template:X-Men. Here, reviews and interviews can be found and you have one ref that covers all the essential information of this article. If it is not enought, then you will have a lot of problem to stop future deletion processes about comics.85.171.171.184 (talk) 23:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• If reliable sources don't exist for other articles related to the X-Men then they should be deleted as well. The non-notability of other subjects doesn't mean that this one should be kept. Sources don't have to be only about the subject of the article but they do need to include significant coverage of it. Harley Hudson (talk) 00:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

The point is the comics project seems to act differently. Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia but it is also made of popular culture. There is coverage: the comic books, the interviews, the reviews, the blogs even in another langage [4]. Coverage does not mean coverage of reliable sources which present all the subject. Each part of the subject, character linked to the plot with Sinister, can be find in a source. And more than one source have presented all the subject with all characters but only one reliable has been found for the moment. Definetely not WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. Except for a marvel encyclopedia which is a primary source, where will you find secondary reliable source about only one character which is not a main one ? You will only find trivial mentions. 85.170.153.15 (talk) 06:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)