Talk:Five-Percent Nation

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Recent expansion

I will be updating the article main space shortly with sourcing for all that I am adding, please be patient. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

PoV

I removed the PoV tag, please place any pov based issues here for discussion. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 20:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing is "POV." All that is necessary is an explanation of 5% doctrine. No promotion of 5% is acceptable. I'd put a "racism" tag on it, as well as "pseudohistory" and "fascism." That's my "POV." JBDay 02:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Only one online source?

There's only one online source...and it's mostly ads. Nice. Deathwish238 09:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

A book would probably be your best way to get a look at the situation of the Nation of Gods and Earths. I too was surprised by the lack of online sources. However I feel some of the books cited are very good in their examination. I will attempt to expand further depending on how recent events unfold. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the reason for lack of online information on the Nation of Gods and Earths, is that the publication of those lessons to the internet is said to be taboo. Reasons behind this is that some Gods believe that a person seeking lessons should have to put forth the effort to find a mentor to learn from. A boastful trait of among members of the Nation is to be able to trace his lineage in the nation back to the Father or one of the First 9 born, thereby validating the correctness of his teachings. Publishing the degrees online would spawn an unnecessary number of phonies giving out innacurate or disinformation due to ingenuine intrest in the group and enable people to cause harm or confusion to innocent people honestly seeking enlightenment. That is the reason why the truly best way to find out about the NGE, is to go to a gathering or, if physically possible, visit Allah's School in Mecca. --MaKebA 01:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

There is not a lack of information about the 5% Nation online. The problem here is the article is named: "The Nation of Gods and Earths" when this is the name of an organization within the 5% Nation of Islam. There is no proof that Clarence 13 X Smith named the group this. This name came up long after he was murdered. The greatest sites to use as references are theblackgod.com[1] and allahteam.com[2] respectively. They have a host of articles on that site that one could use to make this less of an opinionated entry.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, "'The Nation of Gods and Earths'...is the name of an organization within the 5% Nation of Islam" is a position argued chiefly by the Allah Team, a group that openly disagrees with the NGE at just about every turn. The Allah Team cannot consider itself an innocently objective group, as most of the positions they take are matters of dispute. That aside, when it comes to the public at large, the terms "Nation Of Gods And Earths" and "5% Nation" refer to the same body of people.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Kuahmel you seem to think you know the position of the Allah Team and you do not. It is pretty difficult to find positive brothers and sisters in the NGE so the Allah Team is a breath of fresh air and you total discredit them as being Gods and Earths. Do you think they have a negative agenda or something? I think they fully represent the Nation of Gods and Earths. If they do not then you may as well help to get the NGE leader like the churches and mosques of our day have! --HaelBenQodesh (talk) 18:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Your personal feelings about the NGE and the Allah Team are irrelevant here. The bottom line is Allah Team publications are not a reliable source for any information regarding the Nation of Gods and Earths, as they are about putting a political spin on the facts, similar to if one was reading the Weekly Standard or The Nation. The Allah Team only represent their own group's position and that's it.Kuahmel (talk) 20:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Explaining edits

Hello. Just letting you all know I changed some of the occurrences of the word "Allah" to the name Clarence as, outside of the sect, he was still being referred to as Clarence and not "Allah." Now, I may be wrong about this, and maybe he legally changed his name to Allah and people used that to refer to him even outside the sect, and if that is the case, feel free to revert my edits as needed. The only other edit I made was what seems to be a spelling error. I changed "adapt" to "adopt" in the line "he adopted the name Allah." Again, if I am wrong here and it should in fact say "he adapted the name Allah (as in adapted it to his own preference)", then again, please feel free to revert my edits as you see fit. It appears in the history that I made three edits but really it was just one....that I happened to do in three sections. lol. Either way, yeah. Just letting you know. Take care all! (^_^) --Ksskimaan 01:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

You got kinda carried away. The two schools in New York City are genuinely referred to as "Allah Schools." This is clearly marked on both buildings. I made the appropriate edits.Kuahmel (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In the part talking about Hip-Hop artists who are active Five Percenters, I have taken out the names Wyclef Jean, Erykah Badu, JusT, Thizz-N-Livin, and Kingcutie. Badu, for example, has publicly stated she is not a part of the NGE. And there is no searchable record of any of the latter three, making it possible it could be simply some rappers attempting to promote themselves on Wikipedia. Besides, the names left behind are more than enough for the reader to get the idea that many rappers speak 5% ideas.Kuahmel (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: This is a frequently edited article, drastically altered from previous years. With the edit done at this date, I've tried to clean up and reflect more accurately, clearly, and in different words what the Five Percent Nation is all about. For example with the name, I've left the references of "Clarence (13X/Smith)" where appropriate, but changed most of those further down the timeline to "Allah" or "The Father." This was to show that he was noways calling himself or referred to by most anyone else as "Clarence 13X" when he cut ties to the Nation of Islam. This was the most pragmatic and objective way to handle it, though people who feel some kinda way about him or the Nation will have issues. I feel that unless a better compromise is agreed upon, this is how it should be presented.Kuahmel (talk) 08:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

What happened to...?

I really think the section that explains the difference between the NGE and traditional Islam should be restored. Also, there should be some reference to the acceptance and membership white Five Percenters such as Barkim. Peace. (MuzikJunky 06:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC))

It needs a source for the comparison or it is just original research which is not permitted. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed the Five Percent Buddhist Nation Link

The youtube video it pointed to is no longer available.

• Five Percent Buddhist Nation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.212.105.219 (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

OR

Can someone explain the OR violation here? I get why the one section is OR (comparing 5% to mainstream Islam; no sources and it looks like an original essay), but most of the rest of the article seems pretty consistent with what is published about these folks. csloat (talk) 05:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Origin of Five-Percent title Section

What does it mean to "punitively liberate?" Is this a term used by the organization itself? This would seem to mean that the organization "sets people free while punishing them," or "punishes them by setting them free." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.192.211 (talk) 20:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, this terminology confused me as well. 66.15.222.160 (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Not a single Five Percenter I've ever known or any writing I've come across has used such a term. Where it could have possibly come from is beyond me.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Minor Problem

Uh, per the presidential unit citation page, only military units are eligible for the presidential unit citation. Mr. Smith couldn't have received it, though he could have belonged to a unit that received it. 216.98.233.245 (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Islamic?

How is the Nation of Gods and Earths Islamic when Islam is strictly monotheistic? So there couldn't be an Islamic sect concerning gods?

Because the 5% adhere to Islam. Gods refers to every righteous descendant of the Asiatic Blackman, but the Original Nation is Allah, as a whole. There is but one Allah in that sense, though we each form a part and thus, retain traits and characteristics and styles of the whole and can achieve that. Signed, Ruler Born Loony —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.183.88.100 (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Besides the wobbly terminology about "adhering to Islam," I'd agree with this statement.Kuahmel (talk)

No, the 5% do NOT adhere to Islam. They dont belive in the quran or in Muhammad the prophet of the islam. And "mainstream" muslims reject they as such. 5% are not really a relligion it is more a social movement and way of life. They have almost nothing to do with mainstream muslims. They are just 5%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.195.43.203 (talk) 19:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I deleted an entry to the article and added a needed citation

I took the opinion (wherein it states Clarence 13 X calling himself God is the same as Father, Divine) off because George Baker (Father, Divine) did not declare himself to be God, his followers did. Clarence 13 X did it himself. This is a great difference, otherwise that would would need two citations to be a fact and I have yet to see such. I added a citation from a non-5%er based site to provide less of a one sided opinion and view, and in that sense it should not be taken off.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I also deleted an entry. I stated that it was not hard to believe that the NYC police may have been involved in the death of Clarence 13X since they have a history of killing unarmed black men. The statement is an opinion. Also, the information that discusses the accusations surrounded his killing should have a citation.39aka94 (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

New external link added

While I do not see there being any official 5%er or Nation of Gods and Earths website (because they have no centralized leader or location) the Allah Team's main website should be included as the first of the links because it gives us the best scholar like views that are widely held by most Gods and Earths. The site is much less dogmatic than that of many 5%er websites. I have, also, yet to see the site crash like the site that was previously first.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As addressed above, the Nation of Gods and Earths has never taken a position of agreeing wholeheartedly with Allah Team claims.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

So in other words the Nation of Gods and Earths are monopolizing what constitutes a Five Percenter, as well as a God and an Earth? So the NGE is a dogmatic religion like any other religion. The Allah Team are the ONLY ONES who defend Father, Allah on a scholarly and historical level yet the link to their page is deleted? Why then have Method Man, RZA, and a host of other Five Percenters bought their historical books about Father, Allah? --HaelBenQodesh (talk) 18:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

What exactly is your interest here? This article is not about the Allah Team. If one doesn't exist already, start one yourself. Also, Wikipedia is not a general discussion soapbox, but a place to summarize reliable, accurate information about a topic.Kuahmel (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is the first link listed as an official website? There is no official website as there is no official leader. The last and first leader was Father, ALLAH so unless their group changed and they got a new leader this makes no sense. --HaelBenQodesh (talk) 18:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

At Best The Term: "Official Website" Should Be Removed Because There Is No "Official" Anything In Said Nation Of Gods And Earths.--AmenShabazz (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Racism

Hi, I'm not shure If I really understand the theories of the NGE the right way, but the way I understand them they seem to be very racist. Is every white man a devil or do I get it wrong? And if I get it right shouldn't that not be mentioned in the article?–Don-golione (talk) 12:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Officially the NGE is not race-based, but it seems that they de facto adhere to the NoI when it comes to the origins of humanity, etc. I'd imagine that since the NGE is rather decentralized, each gathering has its own views, some subscribing to the NoI line and others to alternative or mainstream views. There are white people in some NGE groups. --Mrdie (talk) 01:40, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't really answer the question. I'm sure there were black slaves who accepted being slaves and didn't try to escape to the north... The question was, are whites included in the gods crap? I understand that it might be decentralised, but interestingly enough, that's not mentioned in the text at all.

OH BTW, seems all great religions spawned in harlem during the sixties by former military personell. lol

213.141.89.20 (talk) 05:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The NGE states that they are "not anti-white or pro-black but anti-devilishment and pro-righteousness". Their ideology at best could be labeled "racial" as in much of their beliefs are race based or race conscious but not necessarily racist in that they don't hate other races. They also state something to the effect that all races have equal potential or something like that. But their non-racist stance is hard to reconcile with some of their teachings such as the black man being "god" and that white people were created by an evil black scientist. One of the original members and personal friend of Clarence 13x (the founder) was white. They have also often as an organization worked with whites. Many popular rappers are 5%ers and work with and are friends with white people. I have known of individual members who were outright racist but generally speaking, aside from some of their more controversial racial beliefs, they can hardly be considered a "hate group" in the vein of Neo-Nazis or the KKK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.196.231 (talk) 05:31, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

The 5% nation does teach that the Black man is God and the White man is the devil. This article is carefully avoiding that topic. Where are the "Caves of Western Asia now know as Europe?". Why did Wu-Tang clan on their first album say "Chase those devils back to the Caucus mountains?". The story that "Yacoub grafted the white man from 7 shades of black, and chased him across the hot arabian desert because the devils nature was wicked and weak, and later Musa went to civilize the savage" is a paraphrase from the "120," which one of their "lessons" or teahcings. Personally I don't care if they teach that or believe that, but report things as they are. This article is not an accurate reflection of this groups teachings. 74.101.163.144 (talk) 18:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you have a reliable source, cite it and write the edit accordingly. It's not like the article is here to defend or advocate for the 5% Nation. As much as I see this page edited and the 5%'s many detractors put in their 2 cents, I don't see anything "carefully avoided" in the article so much as I see people constantly trying to write about their favorite 90s rappers.Kuahmel (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Supreme Mathematics and Supreme Alphabet

Both the Math and Alphabet have many conflicting versions within the Nation, where some numbers and letters have different principles attached to them from other versions. Hence, to post exhaustive lists of any one version as the gospel source makes no sense. Besides, it's generally OR as there is no reliable source in existence, and in many cases people who post them don't even spell a lot of them correctly. This is why I scrubbed off both full listings in favor of examples. People reading this article can still get the point. Without protesting too much, I think this is the way both should stay.Kuahmel (talk) 03:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

So You Are Conceding That There Is No Official ANYTHING In The Nation Of Gods And Earths, Correct? --AmenShabazz (talk) 21:20, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I will concede that I question your agenda in saying such things. (Personal axe to grind, maybe?) Maybe you're better served taking that up on a site where Gods and Earths congregate. For the record, they're official enough to have plenty of readily available material written on them.Kuahmel (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

This is some really sad shit :( 72.228.177.92 (talk) 00:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

In Popular Culture

Shouldn't it also be noted that Lord Jamar is an actual Five Percenter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.196.231 (talk) 05:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I Think It Should Be Noted That He Is REALLY A Member Of The Nation Of Gods And Earths. --AmenShabazz (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

"Blackman"

The first time this phrase is used it hyperlinks to an article about Vikings; later in the article it seems to refer to people with dark skin, 'black' people. Which is it? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

In regard to the introduction to the Nation of Gods and Earths I can only say that the NOGE does not want to be introduced to the world so unjustly. The fact of the matter is that the NOGE has been under literary attack by those who would seek to mis define the NOGE for thier own reasons. If the NOGE did not have someone aware that others were seeking to for reference and defining purposes submit unfounded statements about them when this was originally submitted to you before; we do now. The NOGE should not continue to be defamed or character assassinated via wikipedia because some editors submitted these defaming submissions in 2003. The NOGE is objective and like any other human being nation, people, religion, culture has the right to be self defined. At the moment wikipedia is denying us that right, in favor of a most hurtful and incorrect alternative. My submission was an actual definiton of who and what the NOGE is. The introduction you support is clearly not. As a young Nation 46 years old the NOGE has finnaly come to terms with the fact that if we dont speak for ourselves others will attempt to speak for us. I only sought to correct the incorrect statements that people globally will mistakenly accept as fact because wikipedia said so. this is fundamentally unfair to the NOGE and to wikipedia. Perhaps you did not know that the definition of the NOGE you currently support is actually slanderous before but you do now. i can prove everything i am saying to now because this is my job to objectivly and truthfully define the NOGE````