Talk:Ptolemy XII Auletes

The Illegitimate Heir

Hi, my name is Walid Osama. I wanted to start a particular discussion which revolves around the topic of King Ptolemy XII's illegitimacy. As you all know, he was believed to be the son of a concubine, and ascended to the throne when no lawful heir was available. I am surprised at how profound this point must be, as this means the last family of pharoahs were unlawfully crowned. I want to know what you all feel about this.

--Walid Osama 22:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)Walid Osama

Well, if you do indeed believe this, that's great. However, for Wikipedia's sake, you are going to need a reference so it is legitimate and not a view of yourself or group of people with no reasonable proof. Walid Osama, use the following format "==Header==" (ex. ==The Illegitimate Heir==") rather than your previous style when creating new talking points on the Talk page. And please sign all posts with the four tildes. Also, ptolemyxll, when replying to a comment, do not create a new section. Use the ":" key to indent and reply. Happy to help you if you need it. Daniel Musto (talk) 12:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This belif is compeltly false.

Also he had only 2 children by Cleopatra V, Cleopatra VI is Cleopatra V.

The illegitimacy of Ptolemy XII is commented on in the literature. Dodson and Hilton mention that Pompeius Trogus referred to the king as a "bastard". Furthermore Pausanias mentions that Berenice III (his sister) was the only legitimate child.

For as far as Cleopatra V vs Cleopatra VI goes: that identification is a theory not a fact. The numbering of the Cleopatras in the literature is not stable. But according to Dodson and Hilton again, Ptolemy XII had 5 children: Berenice IV, Cleopatra VII, Ptolemy XIII, Ptolemy XIV and Arsinoe IV. And the mother of some of the children is thought to be Cleopatra VI. --AnnekeBart (talk) 15:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

ptolemyxll

i can not belive that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.205.85 (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Mother was an Egyptian woman?

There is no mention anywhere that the mother of Ptolemy XII was an Egyptian woman. That is a speculation by some modern authors. The fact that the Ptolemies were well known to inbreed with one another makes it highly unlikely that his mother was an Egyptian woman. For the Ptolemies incest was a dynastic signature which highlighted their singularity and above all, their power.

They also followed the matrilinear nature of succession, a system in which one belongs to one's mother's lineage; inheritance of property or titles was through the female line. If the mother of Ptolemy XII was not of Macedonian royal blood he wouldn't have been seen as having sufficient standing within the royal households be recognized as Ptolemy IX's heir.

As for the claim of 'bastard', the term wasn't used in the sense it is used today. The accusations of bastardy are very common in dynastic disputes of the Hellenistic period, one of the most common circumstance involves disputes over the succession between sons of different Ptolemaic mothers(i.e. ethnic Greek-Macedonian Princesses & Queens); Ogden christens these "amphimetric" disputes and argues that the Ptolemies resolve this problem through the institution of incestuous marriage, but in time, as different Ptolemaic princesses married multiple Ptolemaic kings, the problem essentially became resurrected through disputes between the families of different Ptolemaic sisters. This situation is unique amongst Ptolemaic heirs. While officially a son of Cleopatra Selene, the age data for other such princes suggests that Ptolemy XII was in fact the son of Cleopatra IV, sister of Ptolemy IX, born to Ptolemy IX before his accession. The decision by Cleopatra III to force a divorce between Ptolemy IX and Cleopatra IV (Justin 39.3 ~) is why he is known as the 'Bastard'. Cleopatra Selene later married Ptolemy X, and became the mother of Ptolemy XI. In these circumstances, there was a strong incentive for the partisans of Ptolemy X, including Cleopatra Selene to impugn the legitimacy of Ptolemy XII. [~Genealogy of the Ptolemaic House]

The Ptolemies believed that the "sister-born" was a prerequisite of legitimacy and for a Ptolemaic princess to be a recognized sister she must also have been a queen. The biological mother of Ptolemy XII had to have been in a relationship with Ptolemy IX and she also had to have had held sufficient standing within the royalty households for her son to be recognized as Ptolemy IX's heir. The only one who fits this is Cleopatra IV on all accounts:

Cleopatra IV was married to Ptolemy IX and with him in Cyprus when Ptolemy XII was born.

In ca 115 BC their mother Cleopatra III forced Cleopatra IV and Ptolemy IX to divorce, replacing Cleopatra IV with her sister Cleopatra Selene

Since Ptolemy XII was born to Ptolemy IX before his accession and before his mother Cleopatra IV was an official recognized Queens not mention the forced divorced by his grandmother is how the term 'bastard' was forced upon him.

The term doesn't necessarily mean his mother was of Egyptian origins since if she was not from the Ptolemaic bloodline, i.e. an illegitimate off spring of a 'foreigner', would not have held a high enough status to became a Ptolemy King or Queen of the Dynasty. (Angar432 (talk) 21:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)).

References

I noticed that this article doesn't have footnote references of any kind. Something that should be fixed, but I don't know how to flag this article! Iprocomp (talk) 06:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)