Talk:Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin in Paris

How often was Ben in Paris. And it was not just for business, I have heard. Why isn't somebody making a movie about this? Osterluzei (talk) 06:00, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

"in the church" or "as a minister"

As somebody saw fit to challenge my substitution of "as a minister" for "in the church," I will explain why I think my choice of words is more appropriate.
First of all, "in the church" suggests a unified entity such as the Catholic Church, as opposed to the colonial collection of autonomous Congregational churches (plural) to which the Franklin family belonged during Benjamin's childhood. Secondly, using the word "ministry" or "minister" is consistent with common usage. An example from a review of Walter Isaacson's biography of Franklin[1]: "Franklin received some formal education at Boston Latin School, to prepare him for the ministry." Finally, to quote from James Srodes' Franklin: The Essential Founding Father (p. 17) explaining why Franklin's father took him out of Latin School: "Franklin later told his own son, William, that he suspected his father had changed his mind after taking a hard look at the clergyman's penurious life." --Other Choices (talk) 02:52, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact that we disagree is moot. "The church" can have many suggested meanings, not necessarily a unified entity such as the Catholic C., the Romanized C., the Christian C., etc. When one says, "I went to church today," a stranger has no way of knowing which church is meant. And "minister" is but one of many jobs in the church. I suppose that "minister" or even "senior minister" might be what Ben's parents had in mind, but we have no way of knowing. We only know what the cited references tell us. For example, in the Early life section there is a cited reference for the quote, "his parents talked of the church as a career", which is here. The quote is found on page vi. In light of this, and of the fact that I abhor edit wars, it is sincerely hoped that you will self-revert as soon as practicable.  — Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  05:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, you have an indisputable source for your point of view; so I self-reverted to keep the peace. I still think that "as a minister" is more precise, but it's a minor point, definitely not worth fighting over.--Other Choices (talk) 06:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, and sincerely, no "fight" was intended. Cite a reliable source, and a claim is then justified. Best to you!  — Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  08:25, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

"The Longer I Live" Reference in Const. Convention

I have an original reference for the I longer I live quotation from the Journals of the Continental Congress in Library of congress.gov. Could I substitute it? Also, what about giving a condensed version of the quote in the Const. Convention section? Or moving it? Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 05:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

If your reference to the congressional journal includes a link to the actual text, I don't see any problem with making that substitution. Regarding condensing the "longer I live" quote, it's currently in the section about his personal beliefs, and personally I think it belongs there. Perhaps it could be condensed, but it might be difficult to get agreement on what to remove and what to keep. I think we could remove the following sentence: "And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?"--Other Choices (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me if I add to any controversy, but I feel that sentence is a crucial part of the entire quote. I think that by not approving Ben's proposal, the other FFs were merely showing a desire that church and state be separate. Leave prayers for church and "closet", and affairs of state to the gov't. It was another case of choosing the eagle over the turkey. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  06:58, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Here is the reference: Farrand, Max, ed. The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787. 4 vols. New Haven: Yale UP, 1911. Library of Congress: Farrand’s Records. Lib. of Cong., n.d. Web. 27 Dec. 2010. <http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwfr.html>. Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 06:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Here is the quotation:

Mr. President

The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other—our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancienthistory for models of Government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.--Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth—that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service—

The reference is weird, but its Farrand, vol. 1, pp. 450-2, found online at the Library of Congress. Shall we change it?Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 03:41, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore [from the same source],

Mr. Sharman seconded the motion.

Mr. Hamilton & several others expressed their apprehensions that however proper such a resolution might have been at the beginning of the convention, it might at this late day, 1. bring on it some disagreeable animadversions. & 2. lead the public to believe that the embarrassments and dissentions within the convention, had suggested this measure. It was answered by Docr. F. Mr. Sherman & others, that the past omission of a duty could not justify a further omission—that the rejection of such a proposition would expose the Convention to more unpleasant animadversions than the adoption of it: and that the alarm out of doors that might be excited for the state of things within. would at least be as likely to do good as ill.

Mr. Williamson, observed that the true cause of the omission could not be mistaken. The Convention had no funds.

Mr. Randolph proposed in order to give a favorable aspect to ye. measure, that a sermon be preached at the request of the convention on 4th of July, the anniversary of Independence,—& thenceforward prayers be used in ye Convention every morning. Dr. Frankn. 2ded. this motion After several unsuccessful attempts for silently postponing the matter by adjourng. the adjournment was at length carried, without any vote on the motion. [Note: In the Franklin MS. the following note is added:—"The Convention, except three or four persons, thought Prayers unnecessary."]

So it was rejected, maybe we could add this information in the footnote at the end. --Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 03:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The Pilgirms were not Puritans

The article says "Ben Franklin's mother, Abiah Folger, was born into a Puritan family that was among the first Pilgrims to flee to Massachusetts". However, the Pilgrims were separatists, not Puritans. The Puritans settled north of Plymouth in the Salem/Boston area. So, if someone could research and update this to either remove "Pilgrims" or changed "Puritan" to "separatist", that would make the article more accurate. (It's like the difference between Fundamentalist Christian and a progressive Christian church). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.65.18 (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Pilgrims were separatists because they wanted to separate from the Anglican Church. They moved from Scrooby, Northhamshire, England to Leyden, Holland. Then, with the lack of work there and the increase of immoral practices among the youth because of the Dutch influence (such as bundling—the act of being in bed together while clothed), they immigrated to the New World in 1620.
The Puritans, however, only wanted to purify the Church of England from its Catholic-like ritual, not necessarily separate. But the Puritans did end up coming to the New World in 1630, ten years later. Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 04:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Franklin's mother's mother was allegedly born on Nantucket (present-day Massachusetts) in 1620, per http://www.genealogy.com/famousfolks/benjaminf/d0/i0000023.htm#i23 . However, this is inaccurate, per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Morrill . In any case, Franklin's ancestors were not associated with the Separatist congregation at Plymouth Colony.--Other Choices (talk) 02:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see an inaccuracy or contradiction; both sources state that Mary Morill was born in Nantucket. To say that Abiah Folger was born into a Puritan family (or, at least, grew up in a Puritan community) is not unreasonable at all, given that she was born in 1667 in Suffolk, Massachusetts. Massachusetts was where many (if not all) American Puritans resided. I recall reading a Franklin anthology that stated that he disagreed with his parent's Calvinist beliefs, and my U.S. history teacher told us that he was born into a Quaker family. However, we cannot state these claims without sources. Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 05:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

And besides, the Pilgrims who fled could have held to Puritanism. Thus the sentence indicates the the Pilgrims' separatist origins, yet that they "merged" into Puritan beliefs. I don't know if they remained distinct in America or not. It seems that the two groups merged by the 1700s. Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 05:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

If the other facts stated are correct, the problem is calling her a Pilgrim. If her family sailed for Boston in 1635, and settled there, they were not Pilgrims, who were in Plymouth colony, not Massachusetts Bay. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

The above-linked wikipedia article does NOT state that Mary Morrill was born in Nantucket. Rather, it states that "Mary came to the New World as an indentured servant," which means that she was at least a teenager when she came to America. There were no (known) white people on Nantucket in 1620. Regarding the Separatists and the Puritans in early New England; the Puritans were quiet, "de facto" separatists (that's why they came to America), and ministers often moved back and forth between congregations in both colonies.--Other Choices (talk) 23:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

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