Talk:Chola dynasty

Template:Wikiproject History of India Can anyone help by writing just a few lines about each of the kings
- Kishore 06:05, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Hey kishore,

 Better read the "Ponien selvan" By kalki..It explains about each ruler superbly.

Yogananth

• Thanks Yogananth. I was more concerned to improve the article. If you have read "ponien Selvan" and/or have a fair idea abour Cholas, you can help improving the article.

Kishore 15:02, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Etymology of kallaNai is so out of place here. I am going to move it a new article on kallaNai. --Sivaraj 03:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Only three Dynasties?

I'm guessing that what people mean by the 'three dynasties' ruling over Tamilnadu are the Cholas, Pandyas, and Pallavas, i.e. not Cheras which were based in Kerala. But if people know that Cheras also ruled in Tamilnadu at some point, let's give them a mention in that connection. QuartierLatin1968 21:46, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Kerala is a separate political entity only after Independence. Before that the whole region (Tamil Nadu + Kerala) was ruled by different monarchies at various points in time and no distinction was made with respect to [present day] Kerala. AFIK, Tamil tradition mentions Cheras as part of the "three dynasties". A more convincing fact is that Ilango who authored the Tamil epic Cilappatikaram was a prince from the Chera dynasty. -- Sundar 04:51, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, right, of course. That does make sense. I put a link to the Pallavas at their first mention of the article instead. (PS: I've also been trying to sort out the Roman numerals in this article – "Rajaraja Chola-I"? "Henry-VIII"? It looks quite odd. So I'm afraid you inadvertently reverted my Roman numeral fixes as well! No worries though, I've set it back again.) QuartierLatin1968 18:18, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oops! I'm sorry. It was unintentional. -- Sundar 04:13, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

expand on the empire building in southeast asia?

Can anyone expand on the campaigns and cultural fussion on that part -- Dangerous-Boy

Make a map

Someone should make a map like in the Chinese dynasties. --Dangerous-Boy 07:33, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I added a map, overview, images, plus references from my Chola Empire page

Hey guys, I added a IMPERIAL MAP and overview plus references from my Chola Empire wikipedia page which I created. Plus other images referenced with sources, did some minor reorganizing of content here too so that there's no repeating of info. Let me know what you guys think. I think it better reflects the glory of the Chola empire and their military and cultural exploits. Enjoy,

Chola 02:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Nice work. Make sure you tag your map or might get deleted. --Dangerous-Boy 08:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey DangerousBoy, How do I tag the map? I entered the following after adding it: This image was found at Encyclopedie Enligne: http://www.encyclopedie-enligne.com/Images/c/carte_chola.png The original page where this image was found is: http://www.encyclopedie-enligne.com/c/ch/chola.html Was this done correctly or is this not considered a tag, please check it out and give me feedback, i'd like to keep adding to this page :). Thanks!

Chola 19:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You can choose an image copyright tag from here: Wikipedia:Image copyright tags --Dangerous-Boy 22:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I added the tags. Thanks. Chola 23:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Capitals

I added Poompuhar and Pazhaiarai as capitals. Sources being Tamil literature and general history... shash 06:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for taking interest Shash. I reverted the edit, however, because I want to maintain encyclopedic standards. I don't think all details and comments about the Cholas should be added, only the most important and relevant facts in an easy to read manner. Most of the Empire pages on Wikipedia are designed with an aesthetic sensibility to promote understanding of that particular empire and culture to the global internet community. Thus, it's important to keep the information fresh and easily readable with only the most important information. The problem with most of the articles on Tamil empires is that they focus far too much on the Early Dynasties, mention many small details from early history and thus make readers lose interest before reading the real contributions and accomplishments of those civilizations. We need to start promoting knowledge of the big achievements so those outside the Tamil community can better appreciate our civilization. A new effort should be made to promote understanding of Tamil Empires just as the Ottoman and other Empire pages have done Turkish Civilization. Thanks again.

-- Chola 18:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

rename to chola dynasty?

?--Dangerous-Boy 11:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

-Kumar, no point renaming it "chola dynasty" since a dynasty is only a ruling family. This page seems to be more about the "chola empire", thus focusing more on its collective Imperial contributions as opposed to specific individuals who ruled the empire.

Merging Chola Empire with Cholas

Venu62 08:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote the Cholas article changing the sectiosn on the Early Cholas and added a map of the Chola empire. I intend to expand this article ti add the social and political contributions of Cholas. I also intend to contribute articles on the various Chola kings. I would like to suggest that the article on Chola empire be merged into the Chola article in order to avoid duplication.

Hi there, my nickname on Wikipedia is Chola, I'm the one who created the "Chola_Empire" page. I'm fine with merging the two pages. I hope you add a nice image of the Thanjavur Big Temple to the Chola page though, I don't know why the other image was removed, as it's an important contribution of the Chola Empire. Perhaps more info on the Chola military exploits and less Dynastic information would make it qualitatively better, as the original purpose of the Chola Empire page and the various edits I made to the Chola page was so that people outside the Tamil cultural sphere can get better acquainted with the Chola Empires greatness. This, without giving them too many small details at the beginning which may distract from their main contributions (military conquest, architecture, arts, cultural fusion with South East Asia). Cheers. Chola

Hi Chola, Thank you for your note. The image of the Tanjore temple was removed for lack of space on the page. I do intend inserting it back when I add more text to this page. I am currently writing about the contributions of Cholas in the areas of government, art, literature, architecture etc to the lead article on Cholas. This will give a rounded picture to the non-Indian reader. Also I was consious of fact that Wikipedia is a reference document which will be a third level source. We need to be as complete as possible.

Venu62 19:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

early cholas lineage

some one changed the actual lineage from the Purananuru which clearly states who is who and who is the son of who, kindly revert back to he original order given by me.

dates of Sibi, sembiyan , kantaman and Musugunthan are related to the dating of Ramayana time , may be around 1500-1100 B.C.E.

Senthilkumaras 17:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the Chola lineage. This is an article about the history of Cholas. If we want to maintain the information authentic, i.e. supported by the conventional dating evidence, then I don't think using Purananuru and Ramayana as authentic historical document is acceptable. You seem to consider Ramayana as a historical document. I don't. Can you please refer me to the evidence of the exact date of Ramayana? Venu62 19:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I am telling that Purananuru gives the lineage not the exact dates. example too many blunders in your list like, Killivalavan , rasasuya narkilli , kochenkanaan all are misplaced

Purananuru clearly says with the help of the original porulurai if one reads it carefully, killivalavan is son of nalankilli, nalankilli is cousin of cenkuttuvan,

rasasuya narkilli is son of killivalavan,

kocenkaanaan is the last known bigtime chola king , as poet singing on him doesnot come to be in other poet's or king's time, he is later than 200 c.e.

also 250 c.e is the end of big kingdoms in Tamilnadu, after whihc Kalabras spread and dark age starts, extends till 500 c.e.

Senthilkumaras 16:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

My point is if we want to keep Wikipedia an authentic source of information, we need to separate accepted fact from unconfirmed, undatable information. With all due respect to you I don't consider Purananuru and Ramayana as authentic historical sources. They are rather cultural icons preserving a collective memory of a people. They cannot taken as authentic historic source. See Kings of the Britons. This article clearly separates the legendary genealogy of the Kings of Briton from the historical ones. May be you would like to create an article like this detailing the Purananuru list.

Venu62 19:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou sir for differentiating later records of legends [like historia regum brittanica ], and other kingslist of ABriton, from the original datable authentic kinglists.

I also quote for others like me the salient features:

"Various lists of the kings survive, although none of the originals. The Welsh Chronicles supply another source for early British kings. Regardless of the source, no list of the kings has a high level of historic fact and, while they generally are similar to each other, no two lists are exactly the same. Modern historians consider these lists not as historically reliable sources but as comprehensive conglomerations of various Celtic rulers, Celtic warlords, mythical heroes, and, more obviously, Roman Emperors.The history of Geoffrey is rough and unreliable but forms the basis for much English lore and literature. Modern historians have regarded the Historia as a work of fiction with some truth mixed in. John Morris in The Age of Arthur calls it a deliberate spoof. .

But what I wanted to point is there are 20-25 kings names in each of Pandya , Chera and Chola in the later Cangam works. do yo say Cangam works on kings and incidents were all fiction, and those kings names were all cooked up in more later times? yes the exact period of kings are undatable, but neither are the Bible lineage of Noah, Abraham, Joshua upto Jesus[for sure 4 b.c.] datable, they are easily legends only, There were no archaeological stone tablets in Israel to date their genealogy for sure, they rely on the Bible only which was compiled like Purananuru only in 4th century c.e. by the Church.

Or for that matter the Sumerian kinglist [which it is posted in wikipedia also as example:"ruling for 180 years etc and so on"] [which gives kingslist from 3300 b.c.e. ? with each of the earliest kings ruling for 200-1600 years?] you and many provide was actually from stone tablets dated at 1000 b.c.e. only, clearly mentioning that those were only recollected kingslists of the past which were lost in the flood or copied from remaining records.

Afterall each Purananuru poets sang those poems on the donating kings just thanking them or praising their might in order to get money and prizes THE N AND THERE , not written 1000's of years later like other aboe mentioned works ,

so the names of these 60 odd kings are real, atleast,

the poets also many times mention who is the father and son of which king in most cases [except they d on't give you any dates as numbers.]

kindly consider each of these points and PLEASE answer each one of them.

Probably the only minus point was that those days Tamils didnotknow to record or boast on STONE TABLETS, only poor palm leaves script MUCH LIKE BIBLE, VEDAS, CHINESE CHRONOLOGICAL RECORDS,.. ETC - which are very much accepted for genealogy atleast for kingslist , leave alone the dates they generously provide!!!!

In any case how do one say a record is authentic - just archaeo /epigraphy, does palmleaves script has no value ,

and historians who declare one authentic are westerners only. how can they do when they not even know that Purananuru was a praising work for living money by poets on the kings Then and THERE. Will they accept if an Indian scholar date or declare whether the authencity of Bible or Greek/ Roman records are true or just cooked up?

Senthilkumaras 16:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

---

I assume the above note was from Senthilkumar. My response is as follows:

When we write about our own culture we let feelings of Nationalism cloud our objectivity. I recommend that you read the article on Historical method.

No serious historian accepts as fact the dates and genealogy given in in the old and the new Testaments, etc. There is no independent proof that such a man as Jesus existed. He was not an accepted historical figure. The same goes for the Sumerian king list etc. Sumerian and Assyrian King Lists are listed under mythology rather than true history.

When you write an article under 'History', you must write authentic verifiable information, and should not insert legends and myths as historic fact. Otherwise you are indulging in Pseudohistory and Nationalistic propaganda.

Even true blue Indian historians do not take the early king list from the Purananuru as historically acceptable document, even for the reasons of there being not enough information other than a few names. It is not even certain in some cases whether they are kings themselves or those belonging to the ruling clan.

If one wants to push one's Nationalistic agenda, Wikipedia is not the place for it. You seem to have a problem with the so called 'Western Historians'. It is unfortunate but irrelevant. All the pioneering work done in documenting Indian History was done by the Westerners.

Venu62 19:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

thankyou Venu62 for clarifying, henceforth we shall call all kings of these scripts(Bible, sumerian kinglist, Chinese kinglists, Purananuru, Aryan Manu/ Bharata, Ikshwaku lists) without archaeological records as mythical legends only. but Jesus the latest of all these genealogies will be controversial atleast . Senthilkumaras 16:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Ramayana reference

http://www.sanmarga.org/resources/books/dws/dws_r6_timeline.html

Traditionally historians date Ramayana to 1000 -1050 b.c.e.

But much earlier date to 4039 b.c.e.-4019 b.c.e. given now by astronomic record evidence as shown in the site publication by renowned historians and scientists similar to the astronomical records and dating of the Rig Veda.

Senthilkumaras 16:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Historians don't give that date - pseudohistorians do. I can refer you to a hundred sites that argue that the world was created sometime during the evening of June 26th 4004 BC. Which one does one believe? That is why we have the science of archealogy and epigraphy.

Venu62 19:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Venu, I'd like to congratulate you and everyone else on providing a detailed and interesting factual record here. I wish some of the older details (of the Medieval Cholas) such as the Aquaduct, navy and military exploits were kept here, since to me they signify the true glory of the Chola empire. I originally wanted to keep the pages for promoting an understanding of Chola accomplishments to the mainstream community, but find your interesting factual information just as honourable. I was hoping we could keep a compromise, whereby the first 2 paragraphs of this site are kept as is (since they explain a general overview of the Medieval Chola accomplishments) and allow the rest of the page to be edited as new data arrives. We need a brief overview in the first 2 paragraphs to capture the imagination of readers not familiar with the Cholas who may otherwise think they were a minor local entity (and not an international imperial power, which they were). Thanks Chola 10 February.

Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps it's better to maintain the "Chola Empire" page seperately. This is because the "Cholas" page seems to be more about the Chola dynasty with an overemphasis on the Early history, while the "Chola Empire" page is more about the Medieval Cholas and their military and cultural exploits (during a specific time frame). Perhaps with better inter-linking of the 2 pages we can have a good synergy. Good luck. Chola 10 February

Vengi Cholas

The text under the Vengi Chola heading needs to be rewritten for style and formatting.

"Vengi kings were ancient Tamil line that existed since last Sangam period . Vengi always was the face of Tamil kingdoms on the southern banks of Lower Godavari river and bordered the Kalinga kingdom . "

- The above statement needs some supporting reference.

"The Satavahanas or the Andhra dynasty ruled for four hundred years since the post-Asoka period , during which they had marital relationship with Karikala Chola I ."

- The above statement needs some supporting reference.

"Rajaraja Chola's daughter fell in love with Vengi prince Vimaladitan and was married to him . Similarly Rajendra Chola's daughter was married to Rasanarendran, whose son Vengi Rajendra II Kulothungan had to take the Chola crown in 1070 C.E. as after VeeraRajendra's death there was no male scions left in the royal family( as a result of too many battles with Chalukyas )."

- The above statement needs some supporting reference.

Venu62 00:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

References from  ;

VeeraSozhiyam ,

"Tennaattu Porkalangal"-Ka.Appatturaiyaar [1945] , Nandan publications, 2002, 1st edition ,

Satavahanas for their reign period .

203.101.36.213 11:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Senthil Kumar

I was after references supporting the statement :"Vengi kings were ancient Tamil line that existed since last Sangam period... " Where is the proof that they spoke Tamil? Are there any inscriptions left by them in Tamil? Where is the evidence that Vengi Chalukyas and their predecessors were of Tamil extraction?

Where is the evidence for marital relationships between Satavahanas and Karikala I? Any inscriptions to prove this?

Where is the evidence for the statement : ""Rajaraja Chola's daughter fell in love with Vengi prince Vimaladitan and was married to him ..." It may be true that Rajaraja's daughter married the Vengi prince. But where is the evidence that they 'fell in love'?

We should try and keep this an article about known history, not introduce fiction.

Venu62 01:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

same sources above and also from wiki:Rajaraja Chola page and its references.

I accept Satavahana marital was a llegend as it is said. Vengi(Velaavi,Velaata Cholas) and Vengadam are mentioned as northern countries of ancient TamilNadu in Purananuru; their ancient kings may be undated and legendary, but ancient vengi existed , Senthilkumaras 17:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I neverdisputed the existence of Vengi. If you agree with my argument of keeping the text to within the rules of documenting history, please copyedit the Vengi Chola section.

Venu62 19:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Changing Chola to Cholan?

To ManimaranSyndey

When you make a change to Cholan from Chola, please make sure you don't break any existing link. By the way what is the point in your change anyway? All you have done is make a number of links point to nothing. Please read the help articles about article writing in Wiki before changing any text.

Venu62 19:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism?

To the person (212.64.52.209)who removed chunks of information from the article. I am putting the information back into the article as I can't understand why this was removed. Please identify yourself and offer reasons for removal.

Venu62 22:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Spelling Mistake

In the section "The Name Chola", Sembiyan in tamil was written as செம்பியன். I have changed it to ெசம்பியன். When I made the change, I did not realise there was an option called minor edit, does it really matter?

Update: Sorry, I was viewing the page on Mozilla, the text looks fine as it is on IE, so I've changed it back. Apologies to everyone.

128.6.236.246 04:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I made a couple minor edits. I changed the "gopura" to "vimana" under the temple image. That is an image of the temple tower (vimana), and not the temple gopura (ornate gateway). Excellent image by the way! Whoever has been busy adding info, keep up the good work!! [[[User:Chola|Chola]]] 8 March 2006