Talk:Singapore/Archive 7: Difference between revisions
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==Maps is unusable== |
== Maps is unusable == |
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Singapore is a green circle? |
Singapore is a green circle? |
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==Demographics Clarification== |
== Demographics Clarification == |
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"Approximately 42% of the population in Singapore are foreigners and foreigners make up 50% of the service sector" |
"Approximately 42% of the population in Singapore are foreigners and foreigners make up 50% of the service sector" |
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"It has a diverse population of close to 5 million people made up of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Asians of various descents, and Caucasians." |
"It has a diverse population of close to 5 million people made up of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Asians of various descents, and Caucasians." |
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Surely Chinese, Malays and Indians are Asians? Also, shouldn't the statement reflect the fact the vast majority of people in Singapore are Chinese, and the rest are minorities? And what about Eurasians - are they Asians of various descents, or are they Europeans of various descents? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/219.78.87.74|219.78.87.74]] ([[User talk:219.78.87.74|talk]]) 14:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Surely Chinese, Malays and Indians are Asians? Also, shouldn't the statement reflect the fact the vast majority of people in Singapore are Chinese, and the rest are minorities? And what about Eurasians - are they Asians of various descents, or are they Europeans of various descents? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/219.78.87.74|219.78.87.74]] ([[User talk:219.78.87.74|talk]]) 14:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Languages == |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Singapore&action=historysubmit&diff=414790241&oldid=414756006 What the aussie gentlemen wrote was quite detached from factual reality and a a lot of his text don't match the sources quoted.] |
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Bull. The information was in-line with the sources, to the full possible extent I could make it. Now the information has been replaced by sources such as [http://comesingapore.com/travel-guide/article/105/national-languages http://comesingapore.com/travel-guide/article/105/national-languages], with information that is actually not in the sources presented. Eg. "English is the main language in Singapore" is referenced to [http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg/pragp3.doc this word doc], which does not have the phrase "main language" in it at any point whatsoever. Additionally, continued reference to perceived nationality is completely unwarranted and unrelated. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:08, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Similar problem in education revert. Now the article says that "there are four major subjects" and the source in no way supports that. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:25, 19 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:* Chipmunk, |
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1. "http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg/pragp3.doc" does mention that English is the dominant language in Singapore. Besides does Eng is the main lang really requires a source?.. |
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2. What is perceived nationality? |
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3. The exact words are "there are 4 standard subjects", not "major subjects" like what you wrote. And the source "http://www.moe.gov.sg/education/primary/curriculum/" does support it. Read the box in the bottom right of the chart. |
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The original Edu section was much clearer...now you have written it to sound like a brief promotional advertorial with no details whatsoever... |
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Sg is extremely confusing when it comes to languages with many sources saying different things, i dnt think a foreigner can easily understand these things unless u grow up + live here for a long period of time. You have taken a little bit from here and a little bit from there to present an inaccurate picture of things. It is easy to find sources stating that Chinese is lingua franca or English is lingua franca or malay is the national language and then choose the version you like and warp things totally out of reality. Your edits make Spore sound like Msia frankly... |
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Some of the issues with your edits are: |
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Languages section.. |
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1. English is the lingua franca of Singapore, with the other languages all experiencing wide usage within their ethnic groups. |
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There is no source for this... And it is not true anyway...since Singapore Indians use English > Tamil. Many Chinese don't use Chinese at home. The Eurasians mostly use English as well. |
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2. Singaporean Mandarin is generally spoken as the lingua franca among the Chinese community in Singapore. *source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11468401 |
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The source does not mention Mandarin as lingua franca amongst Chi community at all not sure where that came from. |
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And this is not true. There are many Eng speaking Chinese who spk Eng to each other how can their lingua franca be chinese? since sg's working lang and edu lang are eng, chinese students and workers mostly use eng at work and in sch as well... to say mandarin is lingua franca would veri wrong indeed |
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3. Bahasa Melayu Pasar, or Bazaar Malay (a pidginised variety of Malay) used to be the lingua france spoken by all races before Singapore's independence and the switch to English in 1965. *source: http://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/singlish.html |
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The source does not mention any switch of language. In fact, the source says that "English became widely spoken, alongside Singapore's many other languages. Since Singapore became an independent Republic in 1965, the use of English has increased still further." |
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Both Eng and Malay were lingua francas before 1965 and the used of Eng increased afterwards...sg did not switch from malay to eng..like eng wasn't spoken at all prior to 1965.. |
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4. About two-thirds of the of the Indian population in Singapore are Tamil speakers from the India's southeastern state of Tamil Nadu. |
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How can Singaporean Indians be from Tamil Nadu when most haven't been to India? They have ancestry from that area..they are not from that area.. |
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5. Even though only Tamil has official status, there have been no attempts to discourage the use or spread of other Indian languages. |
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Look at the census...in reality, most indians speak eng or tamil or malay. very few speak other indian languages.. |
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6. Other Chinese languages, officially known in Singapore as dialects, also have a presence in Singapore although they are usually spoken only at home. ***source: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/ghsr1/chap2.pdf |
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The source does not mention that at all...and it is not exactly true as well that these dialects are usually spoken at home.. |
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ps:There is also no mention that Malay is national lang for historical reasons and basically is only symbolic..most sporeans dont even speak malay...this is impt to point out.. |
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pps: the way you write make it sound overall that malay is sg's main language and every ethnic group speak their own languages, with no one speaking english except when communicating with another ethnic group.. since u are aussie living in msia, i can see where that came from... |
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I quote your source from Gupta (*source: http://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/singlish.html): Since Singapore became an independent Republic in 1965, the use of English has increased still further. For many Singaporeans, English is the main language. Many families speak English at home and it is one of the the first languages learnt by about half of the current pre-school children. ''Well over half of the population born since 1965 are native speakers of English, and the proportion of native speakers of English is still rising.'' |
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ppps: there is also no mention of chinese being the main home language...and the various chinese dialects..which is impt as well as they are widely used... |
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Defence.. |
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1. The armed forces train on offshore islands, typically restricted to civilian access. *source: http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-11917.html |
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Even though u have a source, not all sources are accurate. Any sg male who has been through conscription knows that the army does a lot of training on mainland sg as well. More explosive ones are on the islands but probably 70% are on mainland sg...another one of the thing u write that is simply not quite true..... |
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Ending.. |
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I thought the edited language section I did after yours had solid sources. Maybe one or two sources like that ones u pointed out for Eng being the main language could be replaced with better sources.. that's about it. |
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Maybe we need 2 edit a little on the edu and armed forces as well now u've changed it. |
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Cheers, |
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[[User:Smilingfrog|Smilingfrog]] ([[User talk:Smilingfrog|talk]]) 08:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:1. The way you wrote it sounded strange, and I think we'd have to define whatever main language meant. Dominant language would be clearer. |
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:3. I took it from the circle, but I will change that now, that's fine. The original education section was too long, I cut it and sourced it. It's meant to be brief. |
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:Language section: |
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:1. The source was the one cited, the literacy and language paper. Page 2 covers the relevant information, English is lingua franca, and although Indians use English more than Tamil, Tamil is still 51%. |
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:2. The BBC source implies it, discussing how mandarin went on the rise after the Speak Mandarin Campaign. Their are other sources that document the strong use of Mandarin, such as [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/27/opinion/27iht-edbowring.html?_r=1 the NY Times] "Since the late 1970s, Singaporean Chinese have been required to learn Mandarin and encouraged to use it at home in place of the dialects which used to divide them...the replacement of dialects with standard Mandarin". |
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:3. That can be reworded, I'll alter it to a shift after independence. |
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:4. Ancestry, will note. |
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:5. Perhaps they don't, but it's an important note that only in Indian languages are dialects allowed to be used for tests and such. |
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:6. The usually there doesn't mean that most people at home speak those languages, but that those languages are pretty much just spoken at home. |
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:ps. Find a source that says it is ''only'' symbolic. |
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:pps. I'm not an aussie living in malaysia. And I'm not sure how such perceived subtleties can be fixed. It says at the start of the section English is the lingua franca. Would the addition of home language statistics suffice? |
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:ppps. I'm fine with statistics being added to the end of the Chinese paragraph. |
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:Defence |
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:Subtleties in writing. I'll fix it. Feel free to add sourced information from this section, I pretty much took it from scratch, as the previous writing had only one source. |
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:I'll make the easy changes and fixes I can. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 10:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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1. Main language simply means the most commonly used language in SG. The language of the schools, govt, businesses, addresses... everything basically. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Smilingfrog|Smilingfrog]] ([[User talk:Smilingfrog|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Smilingfrog|contribs]]) 12:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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1 Uhh..that is for 2005. For 2010, if u see my updated version, it shows that 41.6% of Singaporean Indians speak English as their home language and 36.7% speak Tamil as their home language. Source: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/c2010sr1/findings.pdf For the Chi and Eurasian, many speak Eng at home as well...it is simply quite incorrect. |
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2 The BBC article was written in a different context...the article basically talks about more people learning Chinese in SG. How did it get written in the wiki as Chinese is the sole lingua franca amongst SG Chi. |
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5 Yeah maybe that should be written in the edu segment and not language? In reality most SG Indians study Tamil and speak Tamil. 2010 Census shows only 14% of Indians speak a lang other than Malay/Tamil/Eng. And this is why I thought we should add the chinese dialects and the fact that Chi is most common home language to Chi section, after all, that is even more impt? |
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6. The source "http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/ghsr1/chap2.pdf" does not state that Chi Dialects are usually just spoken at home...and it is not true at all because many - mostly older or less educated - do speak it outside their homes. Just ask any sporean that... |
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PS I did provide the "comesg" website as a source but u removed it. I will try to find better sources. There are actually quite a few but they are books and harder to referenced so I used the website haha. But yeah Malay is national lang due to symbolic and historical reasons and most ppl don't speak malay these days..any sporean shld know that..I think it is quite impt to make this distinction and inform the readers that eng is the main lang so the readers don't think that the main lang in sg is malay? |
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ppps yeah there are many of these phrases/subtleties u used that come across as quite weird. Just 2 for example as it is quite tedious to pt out each phrase. "Other Chinese languages, officially known in Singapore as dialects" I don't think the govt "officially" call them dialects....they are just dialects...and "Pre-university education takes place over two to three years at senior schools called Junior Colleges, and is the final course needed for a School Graduation certificate." It sounded as if the "School Graduation certificate" is the main cert received but in reality it is just a testimonial thingy. The main cert received at the end of JC is the A level certificate which strangely not mentioned at all. etc. |
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***I thought u are an Aussie in Msia? No offense but it is quite hard to understand the lang situation/edu system in sg just by surfing the net or visiting as a tourist. I don't mean any malice at all but the entire language thing just sounded very detached from reality to me and I thought it is possibly because u are non local. It sounded like Sg has become a Malay speaking country, very few people speak Eng and the Sg Chi speak only Chi to each other all the time. |
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Maybe I will give it a brushover and you tell me what you think? I am cool as long as it does not sound a little too weird and detached from reality like it is now. |
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Cheers |
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[[User:Smilingfrog|Smilingfrog]] ([[User talk:Smilingfrog|talk]]) 12:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:1. Strangely, that document gives a lower stat than 51% even in 2000. Perhaps it can be stated in the Tamil paragraph that Tamil usage has been decreasing in the home, as it is replaced by English? There's space, it's the shortest paragraph. Would that be correct? |
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:2. We can replace with the NYtimes one. It's not exactly disputed that Mandarin has become the prevalent Chinese dialect is it? |
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:5. There's a lot of Chinese dialects, it'd be bad prose to just list them. I think Hokkien could be mentioned, due to its historical status. I think whether or not the languages are prevalent, it's notable that other's are allowed. Just as in 1, the figures could be added. |
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:6. By at home I meant in completely unofficial contexts and not much in business. There's plenty of sources saying that Mandarin is the language of the youth now, for example. The education thing is true, probably as schools only teach Mandarin now. |
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:PS Books are easily referenced, check out [[WP:CT]] to see how. Saying that it is "symbolic" is good, but it's saying it is "only symbolic" that comes across strangely. I doubt people reading this would see Malay as the main language, as it starts the section by saying English is. |
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:PPPS Whether they are languages or dialects is not solid in linguistics, and the distinction between the two is blurred. I assume the next paragraph covering the tests would suffice for that? |
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:*Whatever my nationality is and my location is shouldn't affect this at all. I'll reword the lingua franca sentence to better make the distinction. I think we associate different tones and connotations to the writing. I highly doubt Singapore is a Malay speaking country. I'm fine with rewords and the like, just as long as it's not too detailed or unsourced. I'll give it a shot myself, then you can see how it looks. Please add in the percentage speakers I mentioned above if you feel that would be a good solution. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 12:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:Gone through it and tried to fix the major issues you have raised. Any information that seems lacking? [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 14:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Hello, I don't think it is bad prose to add all the dialects, after all, there are only 3-4 main Chinese dialects spoken in SG. And Mandarin really isn't the language of the youths but the older generations, as the youths tend to use English as their first language more often these days. Mandarin is simply replacing other Chinese dialects as their second language. |
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Oh yes, not sure if you know this but Chinese dialects (Mandarin vs Cantonese) are very different from Eng dialects (Am vs Brit). It is impossible for one dialect speaker to understand another dialect speaker that is why I felt it is impt to point out all the different Chi dialects spoken in SG. As they have a very sizeable group. |
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As for whether Mandarin is a dialect or language, this article is probably not interested in it. We can write it as Chinese dialect or Chinese language, as long as it is uniformly used throughout, it should be ok. In SG's case, dialect would probably be more appropriate. |
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I think we should not write " About two-thirds of the of the Indian population in Singapore are Tamil speakers, with their families coming from India's southeastern state of Tamil Nadu" because SG Indians and their families are born and raised in SG, they and their families are definitely not from India but from SG. Maybe I will rephrase it as they have ancestry from the SEtern state of Tamil Nadu. |
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I also think we should not write "Chinese is the designated mother tongue of Chinese Singaporean" or "Malay is the mother tongue of Malay Singaporean" as the term Mother Tongue is really a misnomer in SG's case, just like the term "national language", and confuses people. MT is normally used to refer to the first language internationally but in SG's case, it refers to the 2nd language. MT is only used in the education system and even then it describes the second language in schools not the first. In reality, Chinese Singaporeans have different "MTs". Many have Chinese or Eng as their MT, others have Hokkien/Cantonese etc. |
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Maybe I will just write the percentage of language speakers like u suggest and take out the "MTs" as that would be more accurate. |
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And maybe we can do away with this sentence "Even though Tamil is the official language, the lesser-used Indian languages are still allowed to be used in situations such as school tests". The reality is other Indian languages are ONLY allowed to be officially used in school and ONLY in the MT language paper....it is quite pointless mentioning such a thing really. Might as well write other Indian dialects such as XXX and XXX are also taught in schools and spoken by a few SG Indians. |
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Plus maybe do away with "Baba Malay, a variety of Malay Creole influenced by Hokkien and Bazaar Malay, is still spoken today by around 10,000 Peranakans in Singapore"? I have read the source but the UK source does not state any date for this information. Frankly this is quite insignificant isn't it? 10K/5million? There are prolly more Korean and Jap speakers in SG than that. My family is Pernakan myself. I haven't seen any true traditional Peranakans (Chinese wearing Malay/Chinese traditional dresses at home, speaking Baba Malay all the time) in Singapore. FYI the term Perankan simply means local born Chinese and most SG Chinese today are Perankans. Traditional P is a very fringe group, very small in size in SG and probably not worth making a distinction. |
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And maybe we should just label Eng as the main language of the entire country as that is clearer. The lingua franca of the people within the country sometimes varies according to their own first languages as well. Malay as the national language should also be highlighted as symbolic and that most Sporeans are not educated in it and don't speak it. I will try to find the sources. |
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Cheers, |
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[[User:Smilingfrog|Smilingfrog]] ([[User talk:Smilingfrog|talk]]) 15:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:Depends how it is written I suppose. Main 3 or 4 sounds good. From everything I've read and people I've met the older generations still use traditional dialects. Either way, Mandarin is pushing out the others, which is the point. We'll try to stick with dialect then. |
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:I'll just scrap the origins then, say they speak Tamil. Mother tongue has an official definition, which I fully understand. It sounds like it's important enough to be mentioned, perhaps saying "English is the primary language, with the other three officially designated as the "Mother Tongue" of their respective nationality." |
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:I think some form of the sentence should stay, it's unique that other dialects are allowed at all. Chinese and Malay dialects have all been phased out in educational and official situations. |
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:That sentence is meant to show that the historical lingua franca (Bazaar Malay) had now been reduced down to a mere 10,000 people. It's not about naming a language for the sake of it. |
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:I don't see how the point English is the "main language" is not made already. The first paragraph contains "English is the lingua franca of Singapore, spoken by a majority of the population, with the other languages used less often and mostly within their ethnic groups. Members of each ethnic group generally speak either English or their native language at home, with usage of English on the rise." That says not only that English is the main/dominant/most used language, but that its usage is increasing. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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Ummm ok. My point is to write Eng as the main language and not lingua franca because lingua franca is the language used to communicate when ppl have different first languages. But in SG's case, many ppl have Eng as their first lang. |
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Another clarification is that lingua franca of pre-independence SG, the "Bazaar Malay" you talk about is simply just simple broken Malay. Today, Malay is still the national language. The one with 10,000 speakers left, "Baba Malay" of the Peranakans, is a different language, it is a creole of Hokkien and Malay, it certainly wasn't a lingua franca back then as it was only spoken by the Peranakan Chinese. Actually "Baba Malay" is basically broken Malay as well with some Hokkien words thrown in here and there. I speak a little "Baba Malay" and fluent Malay myself. They are all basically the same language - Malay. |
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Hokkien (lesser extent) and English were also lingua francas pre-indepence, maybe they should be mentioned as well. |
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Another clarification is Mandarin is not pushing out English as English is gaining ground, it is only pushing out the other Chinese dialects. The informal sector in SG has a lot of first language Chinese speakers as there are many Msian Chinese and + Mainland Chinese + Chi speaking Sporeans working in it. |
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Yep we can keep that then. |
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And the Indians are not 2/3 Tamil speaking...I don't know what the percentages are but what the source says is that 2/3 of them have ancestry from the Tamil speaking part of SE India. That does not mean that 2/3 of Spore Indians today are literate in Tamil and Tamil speaking. |
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Ok cool then. |
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Regards, |
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[[User:Smilingfrog|Smilingfrog]] ([[User talk:Smilingfrog|talk]]) 16:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:Right then, I explicitly stated main language, and clarified that meant it was spoken by a majority of the population. |
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:Peranakan deleted. |
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:English's gaining of ground is noted. |
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:Statement removed. |
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:There is now one introductory paragraph, one dealing with English and Mandarin, and one covering Malay and Tamil. Any information that seems to be lacking? [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:05, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:Response to [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Singapore&action=historysubmit&diff=414965812&oldid=414964930 this change], Hokkien I'm fine with mentioning as a previous lingua franca, English is already mentioned. I'll try dig up a source later. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|Chipmunkdavis]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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"English is the main language, spoken by a majority of the population" -> This is true for the 3 million citizens but the entire population of 5 million (2 million foreigners mostly with Chinese as their first language) I am not sure. Chinese could possibly have the most number of speakers (1st + 2nd language included). Maybe just Eng is the main language will do. |
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"Bahasa Melayu Pasar, or Bazaar Malay (a pidginised variety of Malay) was the lingua france spoken by all races before English began to eclipse it" -> Maybe there is no need to write Bazaar Malay but just Malay as Bazaar Malay is just simple Malay. Many Sporeans then also spoke fluent Malay. In fact, just to confuse you further, many Sporean Chinese/Indians took up Malay as their "Mother Tongue" language in sch back then till the 1980s. Yeah it is confusing.. |
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"Members of each ethnic group generally speak either English or their native language at home, with usage of English on the rise." -> The use of native language is quite confusing as being Sporeans, Eng is a native lang for many. If talking about ancestral lang, even the Chinese have many "ancestral langs" depending on where their ancestors were from - Mandarin (beijing), Hokkien (Fujian), Cantonese(GZ), Hakka(GZ area), Hainan(Hainan Island) etc. Mandarin is not even the ancestral language for 99% of SG Chinese. An mentioned previously, many Sporean Chinese/Indians also took up Malay as their "Mother Tongue" language in sch back then till the 1980s. |
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Maybe I will just edit the lang and defence section slightly later. |
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Cheers, |
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[[User:Smilingfrog|Smilingfrog]] ([[User talk:Smilingfrog|talk]]) 16:48, 20 February 2011 (UTC) |
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== Etymology == |
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{{Discussion top|Closed per [[WP:FORUM|wrong number]].}} |
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As per my research in Tamil sound origin, The word "Singa" in Singapore need not refer to the lion only. |
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The word Singam in Tamil is Si+n+akam, meaning "Never leaves out what enters + its + inside" literally meaning something |
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fixed firmly and cannot move or escape out. |
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so it can refer '''the Lion''' or '''Some place which is so attractive''', '''Some place from which one cant escape etc'''. |
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This may be useful for some who wants more on the name of Singapore or Singam. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Malarmisai|Malarmisai]] ([[User talk:Malarmisai|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Malarmisai|contribs]]) 16:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:*@Malarmisai: My suggestion for you is to go to the correct article page (→ [[Names of Singapore]] ←) to discuss it, where you will find more detailed explanations to you by learned scholars of this particular subject, which we have discussed here to no avail. Best. --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 20:45, 3 April 2011 (UTC) |
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{{Discussion bottom}} |
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== Use of International TLDs in the article == |
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{{Discussion top|Closed per [[WP:Consensus|no clear consensus]] & [[WP:FORUM]].}} |
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A user reverted my re-addition of the International TLDs to this page. Here are some points for its retention: |
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#While it may not be an English language TLD, it is still an official TLD of the respected nation |
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#These TLDs are used on other pages and not contested there, for e.g. [[PRC|China]] and [[Russia]]. Therefore, whether these International TLDs are or not to be used has to be a Wiki-wide policy. |
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--[[User:RaviC|RaviC]] ([[User talk:RaviC|talk]]) 20:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:*'''@RaviC:''' Not everything on Wikipedia is policy, read [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English]] for instance, Singapore uses [[British English]]. Hence, when someone not familar with Singapore comes here to edit but uses American spelling instead, the likelihood of her/him being corrected by any of us here is higher than striking 4D. Again, I just want to state that my rationale for reverting your edit is in the relevancy of it. I mean, who would dwell into those details when we're using English primarily here, right? Moreover, both '''.新加坡''' and '''.சிங்கப்பூர்''' are redirected to [[.sg]], thus rendering the former two redundant and extraneous. May be one might ask "does it help improve the article?", or "does it add value to the article?"; if the answers are "no", let's leave it at that and move on. Thoughts, anyone? --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 20:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::*I disagree, as, these two TLDs will eventually have their own respective articles. I'm not sure if you are aware, but International TLDs are a new issuing, and therefore not all International TLDs will (yet) have articles. --[[User:RaviC|RaviC]] ([[User talk:RaviC|talk]]) 21:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::*BTW, thanks for the welcome, but I've been here since 2006! --[[User:RaviC|RaviC]] ([[User talk:RaviC|talk]]) 22:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::*FYI, I hate to burst your bubble but what I'm about to tell you is nothing further from the truth, those two TLDs will ''never'' get their own article pages on <u>'''English Wikipedia'''</u> so long as the primary English version (→ .sg ←) is up and running. One thing though, you may have registered since 2006, correct me if I got this wrong but I find your idea and perception of how Wikipedia works is definitely lacking. Hence, I would invite you to click on the Welcome section I've provided on your talk page to familarise yourself or you might find yourself continually banging against the walls around here. Best. --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 22:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::*BTW, let me put forward this notion since you've skirted my questions to you... your input here really does not help to improve the article page nor does it add any more values than it already has. Best and out. --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 22:10, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::You may have made some fair points, but attempting to insult my intellect was uncalled for. '''You personally asked me to provide my input on my talk page, and now are saying that I have no right to give it?''' I present to you a selection of articles which you can promptly nominate for deletion: [[.рф]], [[مصر.]], [[.AlSaudiah|السعودية.]], [[.срб]], [[.укр]]. Cheers. --[[User:RaviC|RaviC]] ([[User talk:RaviC|talk]]) 22:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::*Not when about half of your input examples are redirects, I rest my case. Adieu~! --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 22:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Apart from the Saudi one, which are redirects? --[[User:RaviC|RaviC]] ([[User talk:RaviC|talk]]) 22:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::*[[Masr (domain name)]] (for "مصر.") and '''.新加坡''' plus '''.சிங்கப்பூர்''' for [[.sg]]. BTW, I've always been referring to your '''inputs''' (not referring to your discussion) so don't misconstrue my meaning by thinking that I'm directing it personally towards you, which I'm not. Please read carefully [[WP:Don't assume|before you assume things]]. --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 22:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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*I'm postponing my input in this article until other editors also contribute - this argument is leading nowhere. --[[User:RaviC|RaviC]] ([[User talk:RaviC|talk]]) 22:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:*Another thing, those extraneous article pages (per your input examples to me), with majority or part of the contents duplicating those from the country's main TLD page, will sooner or later be nominated for [[WP:Merging|merging into the main article page]] by either an experienced editor (I would have done it but that would become a little bit sticky since COI comes to mind) or by a patrolling Administrator. My experience in dealing with such duplicate article is suffice to let you know that this is the usual process, something which you can't stop. And if you doubt me, go approach an Administrator and ask her/him to give you a frank assessment of what I just told you. That much I can say and tell. --<small>[[User:Dave1185|<font face="Rage Italic" size="4" style="color:#000000;color:green"><i>Dave</i></font>]] <sup><span style="font-family:Italic;color:black">[[user_talk:Dave1185|♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®]]</span></sup></small> 22:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::Although International TLDs are implemented and are official, just how commonly are they used? How many sites are out there that specifically are linked to via a URL that has an international TLD in it, in comparison to a URL that ends in say .sg? --<span style="border:1px solid yellow;padding:1px;">[[User:benlisquare|<font style="color:#FFFF00;background:red;">''' 李博杰 '''</font>]]</span> | <small>—[[User talk:benlisquare|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|contribs]] [[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|email]]</small> 06:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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*Since they're officially recognized, they should be included in the infobox and what have you, as on other articles. ''Whether they should be linked'' or their articles should be merged/redirected is a separate issue entirely. --[[User:Cybercobra|<b><font color="3773A5">Cyber</font></b><font color="FFB521">cobra</font>]] [[User talk:Cybercobra|(talk)]] 09:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC) |
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{{Discussion bottom}} |
Revision as of 15:07, 10 June 2011
This is an archive of past discussions about Singapore. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Maps is unusable
Singapore is a green circle?
Demographics Clarification
"Approximately 42% of the population in Singapore are foreigners and foreigners make up 50% of the service sector" By "foreigners" do you mean someone who has immigrated to Singapore (foreign born, holds citizenship)-- a better word for this would be "immigrant" ; or do you mean someone from a foreign country who is a non-citizen temporary worker? Feldercarb (talk) 13:11, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I think this is (as far as I can determine), a statement about the percentage of non-citizens in the total resident population. Maybe it should be amended for clarity? Brythain (talk) 08:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
"It has a diverse population of close to 5 million people made up of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Asians of various descents, and Caucasians." Surely Chinese, Malays and Indians are Asians? Also, shouldn't the statement reflect the fact the vast majority of people in Singapore are Chinese, and the rest are minorities? And what about Eurasians - are they Asians of various descents, or are they Europeans of various descents? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.78.87.74 (talk) 14:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Languages
Bull. The information was in-line with the sources, to the full possible extent I could make it. Now the information has been replaced by sources such as http://comesingapore.com/travel-guide/article/105/national-languages, with information that is actually not in the sources presented. Eg. "English is the main language in Singapore" is referenced to this word doc, which does not have the phrase "main language" in it at any point whatsoever. Additionally, continued reference to perceived nationality is completely unwarranted and unrelated. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Similar problem in education revert. Now the article says that "there are four major subjects" and the source in no way supports that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:25, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Chipmunk,
1. "http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg/pragp3.doc" does mention that English is the dominant language in Singapore. Besides does Eng is the main lang really requires a source?..
2. What is perceived nationality?
3. The exact words are "there are 4 standard subjects", not "major subjects" like what you wrote. And the source "http://www.moe.gov.sg/education/primary/curriculum/" does support it. Read the box in the bottom right of the chart.
The original Edu section was much clearer...now you have written it to sound like a brief promotional advertorial with no details whatsoever...
Sg is extremely confusing when it comes to languages with many sources saying different things, i dnt think a foreigner can easily understand these things unless u grow up + live here for a long period of time. You have taken a little bit from here and a little bit from there to present an inaccurate picture of things. It is easy to find sources stating that Chinese is lingua franca or English is lingua franca or malay is the national language and then choose the version you like and warp things totally out of reality. Your edits make Spore sound like Msia frankly...
Some of the issues with your edits are:
Languages section..
1. English is the lingua franca of Singapore, with the other languages all experiencing wide usage within their ethnic groups.
There is no source for this... And it is not true anyway...since Singapore Indians use English > Tamil. Many Chinese don't use Chinese at home. The Eurasians mostly use English as well.
2. Singaporean Mandarin is generally spoken as the lingua franca among the Chinese community in Singapore. *source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11468401
The source does not mention Mandarin as lingua franca amongst Chi community at all not sure where that came from.
And this is not true. There are many Eng speaking Chinese who spk Eng to each other how can their lingua franca be chinese? since sg's working lang and edu lang are eng, chinese students and workers mostly use eng at work and in sch as well... to say mandarin is lingua franca would veri wrong indeed
3. Bahasa Melayu Pasar, or Bazaar Malay (a pidginised variety of Malay) used to be the lingua france spoken by all races before Singapore's independence and the switch to English in 1965. *source: http://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/singlish.html
The source does not mention any switch of language. In fact, the source says that "English became widely spoken, alongside Singapore's many other languages. Since Singapore became an independent Republic in 1965, the use of English has increased still further."
Both Eng and Malay were lingua francas before 1965 and the used of Eng increased afterwards...sg did not switch from malay to eng..like eng wasn't spoken at all prior to 1965..
4. About two-thirds of the of the Indian population in Singapore are Tamil speakers from the India's southeastern state of Tamil Nadu.
How can Singaporean Indians be from Tamil Nadu when most haven't been to India? They have ancestry from that area..they are not from that area..
5. Even though only Tamil has official status, there have been no attempts to discourage the use or spread of other Indian languages.
Look at the census...in reality, most indians speak eng or tamil or malay. very few speak other indian languages..
6. Other Chinese languages, officially known in Singapore as dialects, also have a presence in Singapore although they are usually spoken only at home. ***source: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/ghsr1/chap2.pdf
The source does not mention that at all...and it is not exactly true as well that these dialects are usually spoken at home..
ps:There is also no mention that Malay is national lang for historical reasons and basically is only symbolic..most sporeans dont even speak malay...this is impt to point out..
pps: the way you write make it sound overall that malay is sg's main language and every ethnic group speak their own languages, with no one speaking english except when communicating with another ethnic group.. since u are aussie living in msia, i can see where that came from...
I quote your source from Gupta (*source: http://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/singlish.html): Since Singapore became an independent Republic in 1965, the use of English has increased still further. For many Singaporeans, English is the main language. Many families speak English at home and it is one of the the first languages learnt by about half of the current pre-school children. Well over half of the population born since 1965 are native speakers of English, and the proportion of native speakers of English is still rising.
ppps: there is also no mention of chinese being the main home language...and the various chinese dialects..which is impt as well as they are widely used...
Defence..
1. The armed forces train on offshore islands, typically restricted to civilian access. *source: http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-11917.html
Even though u have a source, not all sources are accurate. Any sg male who has been through conscription knows that the army does a lot of training on mainland sg as well. More explosive ones are on the islands but probably 70% are on mainland sg...another one of the thing u write that is simply not quite true.....
Ending..
I thought the edited language section I did after yours had solid sources. Maybe one or two sources like that ones u pointed out for Eng being the main language could be replaced with better sources.. that's about it.
Maybe we need 2 edit a little on the edu and armed forces as well now u've changed it.
Cheers, Smilingfrog (talk) 08:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- 1. The way you wrote it sounded strange, and I think we'd have to define whatever main language meant. Dominant language would be clearer.
- 3. I took it from the circle, but I will change that now, that's fine. The original education section was too long, I cut it and sourced it. It's meant to be brief.
- Language section:
- 1. The source was the one cited, the literacy and language paper. Page 2 covers the relevant information, English is lingua franca, and although Indians use English more than Tamil, Tamil is still 51%.
- 2. The BBC source implies it, discussing how mandarin went on the rise after the Speak Mandarin Campaign. Their are other sources that document the strong use of Mandarin, such as the NY Times "Since the late 1970s, Singaporean Chinese have been required to learn Mandarin and encouraged to use it at home in place of the dialects which used to divide them...the replacement of dialects with standard Mandarin".
- 3. That can be reworded, I'll alter it to a shift after independence.
- 4. Ancestry, will note.
- 5. Perhaps they don't, but it's an important note that only in Indian languages are dialects allowed to be used for tests and such.
- 6. The usually there doesn't mean that most people at home speak those languages, but that those languages are pretty much just spoken at home.
- ps. Find a source that says it is only symbolic.
- pps. I'm not an aussie living in malaysia. And I'm not sure how such perceived subtleties can be fixed. It says at the start of the section English is the lingua franca. Would the addition of home language statistics suffice?
- ppps. I'm fine with statistics being added to the end of the Chinese paragraph.
- Defence
- Subtleties in writing. I'll fix it. Feel free to add sourced information from this section, I pretty much took it from scratch, as the previous writing had only one source.
- I'll make the easy changes and fixes I can. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
1. Main language simply means the most commonly used language in SG. The language of the schools, govt, businesses, addresses... everything basically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smilingfrog (talk • contribs) 12:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
1 Uhh..that is for 2005. For 2010, if u see my updated version, it shows that 41.6% of Singaporean Indians speak English as their home language and 36.7% speak Tamil as their home language. Source: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/c2010sr1/findings.pdf For the Chi and Eurasian, many speak Eng at home as well...it is simply quite incorrect.
2 The BBC article was written in a different context...the article basically talks about more people learning Chinese in SG. How did it get written in the wiki as Chinese is the sole lingua franca amongst SG Chi.
5 Yeah maybe that should be written in the edu segment and not language? In reality most SG Indians study Tamil and speak Tamil. 2010 Census shows only 14% of Indians speak a lang other than Malay/Tamil/Eng. And this is why I thought we should add the chinese dialects and the fact that Chi is most common home language to Chi section, after all, that is even more impt?
6. The source "http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/ghsr1/chap2.pdf" does not state that Chi Dialects are usually just spoken at home...and it is not true at all because many - mostly older or less educated - do speak it outside their homes. Just ask any sporean that...
PS I did provide the "comesg" website as a source but u removed it. I will try to find better sources. There are actually quite a few but they are books and harder to referenced so I used the website haha. But yeah Malay is national lang due to symbolic and historical reasons and most ppl don't speak malay these days..any sporean shld know that..I think it is quite impt to make this distinction and inform the readers that eng is the main lang so the readers don't think that the main lang in sg is malay?
ppps yeah there are many of these phrases/subtleties u used that come across as quite weird. Just 2 for example as it is quite tedious to pt out each phrase. "Other Chinese languages, officially known in Singapore as dialects" I don't think the govt "officially" call them dialects....they are just dialects...and "Pre-university education takes place over two to three years at senior schools called Junior Colleges, and is the final course needed for a School Graduation certificate." It sounded as if the "School Graduation certificate" is the main cert received but in reality it is just a testimonial thingy. The main cert received at the end of JC is the A level certificate which strangely not mentioned at all. etc.
- I thought u are an Aussie in Msia? No offense but it is quite hard to understand the lang situation/edu system in sg just by surfing the net or visiting as a tourist. I don't mean any malice at all but the entire language thing just sounded very detached from reality to me and I thought it is possibly because u are non local. It sounded like Sg has become a Malay speaking country, very few people speak Eng and the Sg Chi speak only Chi to each other all the time.
Maybe I will give it a brushover and you tell me what you think? I am cool as long as it does not sound a little too weird and detached from reality like it is now.
Cheers Smilingfrog (talk) 12:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- 1. Strangely, that document gives a lower stat than 51% even in 2000. Perhaps it can be stated in the Tamil paragraph that Tamil usage has been decreasing in the home, as it is replaced by English? There's space, it's the shortest paragraph. Would that be correct?
- 2. We can replace with the NYtimes one. It's not exactly disputed that Mandarin has become the prevalent Chinese dialect is it?
- 5. There's a lot of Chinese dialects, it'd be bad prose to just list them. I think Hokkien could be mentioned, due to its historical status. I think whether or not the languages are prevalent, it's notable that other's are allowed. Just as in 1, the figures could be added.
- 6. By at home I meant in completely unofficial contexts and not much in business. There's plenty of sources saying that Mandarin is the language of the youth now, for example. The education thing is true, probably as schools only teach Mandarin now.
- PS Books are easily referenced, check out WP:CT to see how. Saying that it is "symbolic" is good, but it's saying it is "only symbolic" that comes across strangely. I doubt people reading this would see Malay as the main language, as it starts the section by saying English is.
- PPPS Whether they are languages or dialects is not solid in linguistics, and the distinction between the two is blurred. I assume the next paragraph covering the tests would suffice for that?
- Whatever my nationality is and my location is shouldn't affect this at all. I'll reword the lingua franca sentence to better make the distinction. I think we associate different tones and connotations to the writing. I highly doubt Singapore is a Malay speaking country. I'm fine with rewords and the like, just as long as it's not too detailed or unsourced. I'll give it a shot myself, then you can see how it looks. Please add in the percentage speakers I mentioned above if you feel that would be a good solution. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- Gone through it and tried to fix the major issues you have raised. Any information that seems lacking? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I don't think it is bad prose to add all the dialects, after all, there are only 3-4 main Chinese dialects spoken in SG. And Mandarin really isn't the language of the youths but the older generations, as the youths tend to use English as their first language more often these days. Mandarin is simply replacing other Chinese dialects as their second language.
Oh yes, not sure if you know this but Chinese dialects (Mandarin vs Cantonese) are very different from Eng dialects (Am vs Brit). It is impossible for one dialect speaker to understand another dialect speaker that is why I felt it is impt to point out all the different Chi dialects spoken in SG. As they have a very sizeable group.
As for whether Mandarin is a dialect or language, this article is probably not interested in it. We can write it as Chinese dialect or Chinese language, as long as it is uniformly used throughout, it should be ok. In SG's case, dialect would probably be more appropriate.
I think we should not write " About two-thirds of the of the Indian population in Singapore are Tamil speakers, with their families coming from India's southeastern state of Tamil Nadu" because SG Indians and their families are born and raised in SG, they and their families are definitely not from India but from SG. Maybe I will rephrase it as they have ancestry from the SEtern state of Tamil Nadu.
I also think we should not write "Chinese is the designated mother tongue of Chinese Singaporean" or "Malay is the mother tongue of Malay Singaporean" as the term Mother Tongue is really a misnomer in SG's case, just like the term "national language", and confuses people. MT is normally used to refer to the first language internationally but in SG's case, it refers to the 2nd language. MT is only used in the education system and even then it describes the second language in schools not the first. In reality, Chinese Singaporeans have different "MTs". Many have Chinese or Eng as their MT, others have Hokkien/Cantonese etc.
Maybe I will just write the percentage of language speakers like u suggest and take out the "MTs" as that would be more accurate.
And maybe we can do away with this sentence "Even though Tamil is the official language, the lesser-used Indian languages are still allowed to be used in situations such as school tests". The reality is other Indian languages are ONLY allowed to be officially used in school and ONLY in the MT language paper....it is quite pointless mentioning such a thing really. Might as well write other Indian dialects such as XXX and XXX are also taught in schools and spoken by a few SG Indians.
Plus maybe do away with "Baba Malay, a variety of Malay Creole influenced by Hokkien and Bazaar Malay, is still spoken today by around 10,000 Peranakans in Singapore"? I have read the source but the UK source does not state any date for this information. Frankly this is quite insignificant isn't it? 10K/5million? There are prolly more Korean and Jap speakers in SG than that. My family is Pernakan myself. I haven't seen any true traditional Peranakans (Chinese wearing Malay/Chinese traditional dresses at home, speaking Baba Malay all the time) in Singapore. FYI the term Perankan simply means local born Chinese and most SG Chinese today are Perankans. Traditional P is a very fringe group, very small in size in SG and probably not worth making a distinction.
And maybe we should just label Eng as the main language of the entire country as that is clearer. The lingua franca of the people within the country sometimes varies according to their own first languages as well. Malay as the national language should also be highlighted as symbolic and that most Sporeans are not educated in it and don't speak it. I will try to find the sources.
Cheers, Smilingfrog (talk) 15:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- Depends how it is written I suppose. Main 3 or 4 sounds good. From everything I've read and people I've met the older generations still use traditional dialects. Either way, Mandarin is pushing out the others, which is the point. We'll try to stick with dialect then.
- I'll just scrap the origins then, say they speak Tamil. Mother tongue has an official definition, which I fully understand. It sounds like it's important enough to be mentioned, perhaps saying "English is the primary language, with the other three officially designated as the "Mother Tongue" of their respective nationality."
- I think some form of the sentence should stay, it's unique that other dialects are allowed at all. Chinese and Malay dialects have all been phased out in educational and official situations.
- That sentence is meant to show that the historical lingua franca (Bazaar Malay) had now been reduced down to a mere 10,000 people. It's not about naming a language for the sake of it.
- I don't see how the point English is the "main language" is not made already. The first paragraph contains "English is the lingua franca of Singapore, spoken by a majority of the population, with the other languages used less often and mostly within their ethnic groups. Members of each ethnic group generally speak either English or their native language at home, with usage of English on the rise." That says not only that English is the main/dominant/most used language, but that its usage is increasing. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Ummm ok. My point is to write Eng as the main language and not lingua franca because lingua franca is the language used to communicate when ppl have different first languages. But in SG's case, many ppl have Eng as their first lang.
Another clarification is that lingua franca of pre-independence SG, the "Bazaar Malay" you talk about is simply just simple broken Malay. Today, Malay is still the national language. The one with 10,000 speakers left, "Baba Malay" of the Peranakans, is a different language, it is a creole of Hokkien and Malay, it certainly wasn't a lingua franca back then as it was only spoken by the Peranakan Chinese. Actually "Baba Malay" is basically broken Malay as well with some Hokkien words thrown in here and there. I speak a little "Baba Malay" and fluent Malay myself. They are all basically the same language - Malay.
Hokkien (lesser extent) and English were also lingua francas pre-indepence, maybe they should be mentioned as well.
Another clarification is Mandarin is not pushing out English as English is gaining ground, it is only pushing out the other Chinese dialects. The informal sector in SG has a lot of first language Chinese speakers as there are many Msian Chinese and + Mainland Chinese + Chi speaking Sporeans working in it.
Yep we can keep that then.
And the Indians are not 2/3 Tamil speaking...I don't know what the percentages are but what the source says is that 2/3 of them have ancestry from the Tamil speaking part of SE India. That does not mean that 2/3 of Spore Indians today are literate in Tamil and Tamil speaking.
Ok cool then.
Regards, Smilingfrog (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- Right then, I explicitly stated main language, and clarified that meant it was spoken by a majority of the population.
- Peranakan deleted.
- English's gaining of ground is noted.
- Statement removed.
- There is now one introductory paragraph, one dealing with English and Mandarin, and one covering Malay and Tamil. Any information that seems to be lacking? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
- Response to this change, Hokkien I'm fine with mentioning as a previous lingua franca, English is already mentioned. I'll try dig up a source later. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
"English is the main language, spoken by a majority of the population" -> This is true for the 3 million citizens but the entire population of 5 million (2 million foreigners mostly with Chinese as their first language) I am not sure. Chinese could possibly have the most number of speakers (1st + 2nd language included). Maybe just Eng is the main language will do.
"Bahasa Melayu Pasar, or Bazaar Malay (a pidginised variety of Malay) was the lingua france spoken by all races before English began to eclipse it" -> Maybe there is no need to write Bazaar Malay but just Malay as Bazaar Malay is just simple Malay. Many Sporeans then also spoke fluent Malay. In fact, just to confuse you further, many Sporean Chinese/Indians took up Malay as their "Mother Tongue" language in sch back then till the 1980s. Yeah it is confusing..
"Members of each ethnic group generally speak either English or their native language at home, with usage of English on the rise." -> The use of native language is quite confusing as being Sporeans, Eng is a native lang for many. If talking about ancestral lang, even the Chinese have many "ancestral langs" depending on where their ancestors were from - Mandarin (beijing), Hokkien (Fujian), Cantonese(GZ), Hakka(GZ area), Hainan(Hainan Island) etc. Mandarin is not even the ancestral language for 99% of SG Chinese. An mentioned previously, many Sporean Chinese/Indians also took up Malay as their "Mother Tongue" language in sch back then till the 1980s.
Maybe I will just edit the lang and defence section slightly later.
Cheers, Smilingfrog (talk) 16:48, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Etymology
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Closed per wrong number.
As per my research in Tamil sound origin, The word "Singa" in Singapore need not refer to the lion only. The word Singam in Tamil is Si+n+akam, meaning "Never leaves out what enters + its + inside" literally meaning something fixed firmly and cannot move or escape out. so it can refer the Lion or Some place which is so attractive, Some place from which one cant escape etc. This may be useful for some who wants more on the name of Singapore or Singam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malarmisai (talk • contribs) 16:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
- @Malarmisai: My suggestion for you is to go to the correct article page (→ Names of Singapore ←) to discuss it, where you will find more detailed explanations to you by learned scholars of this particular subject, which we have discussed here to no avail. Best. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 20:45, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Use of International TLDs in the article
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Closed per no clear consensus & WP:FORUM.
A user reverted my re-addition of the International TLDs to this page. Here are some points for its retention:
- While it may not be an English language TLD, it is still an official TLD of the respected nation
- These TLDs are used on other pages and not contested there, for e.g. China and Russia. Therefore, whether these International TLDs are or not to be used has to be a Wiki-wide policy.
--RaviC (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- @RaviC: Not everything on Wikipedia is policy, read Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English for instance, Singapore uses British English. Hence, when someone not familar with Singapore comes here to edit but uses American spelling instead, the likelihood of her/him being corrected by any of us here is higher than striking 4D. Again, I just want to state that my rationale for reverting your edit is in the relevancy of it. I mean, who would dwell into those details when we're using English primarily here, right? Moreover, both .新加坡 and .சிங்கப்பூர் are redirected to .sg, thus rendering the former two redundant and extraneous. May be one might ask "does it help improve the article?", or "does it add value to the article?"; if the answers are "no", let's leave it at that and move on. Thoughts, anyone? --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 20:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree, as, these two TLDs will eventually have their own respective articles. I'm not sure if you are aware, but International TLDs are a new issuing, and therefore not all International TLDs will (yet) have articles. --RaviC (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- BTW, thanks for the welcome, but I've been here since 2006! --RaviC (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- FYI, I hate to burst your bubble but what I'm about to tell you is nothing further from the truth, those two TLDs will never get their own article pages on English Wikipedia so long as the primary English version (→ .sg ←) is up and running. One thing though, you may have registered since 2006, correct me if I got this wrong but I find your idea and perception of how Wikipedia works is definitely lacking. Hence, I would invite you to click on the Welcome section I've provided on your talk page to familarise yourself or you might find yourself continually banging against the walls around here. Best. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 22:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- BTW, let me put forward this notion since you've skirted my questions to you... your input here really does not help to improve the article page nor does it add any more values than it already has. Best and out. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 22:10, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- You may have made some fair points, but attempting to insult my intellect was uncalled for. You personally asked me to provide my input on my talk page, and now are saying that I have no right to give it? I present to you a selection of articles which you can promptly nominate for deletion: .рф, مصر., السعودية., .срб, .укр. Cheers. --RaviC (talk) 22:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Not when about half of your input examples are redirects, I rest my case. Adieu~! --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 22:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apart from the Saudi one, which are redirects? --RaviC (talk) 22:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Masr (domain name) (for "مصر.") and .新加坡 plus .சிங்கப்பூர் for .sg. BTW, I've always been referring to your inputs (not referring to your discussion) so don't misconstrue my meaning by thinking that I'm directing it personally towards you, which I'm not. Please read carefully before you assume things. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 22:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apart from the Saudi one, which are redirects? --RaviC (talk) 22:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm postponing my input in this article until other editors also contribute - this argument is leading nowhere. --RaviC (talk) 22:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Another thing, those extraneous article pages (per your input examples to me), with majority or part of the contents duplicating those from the country's main TLD page, will sooner or later be nominated for merging into the main article page by either an experienced editor (I would have done it but that would become a little bit sticky since COI comes to mind) or by a patrolling Administrator. My experience in dealing with such duplicate article is suffice to let you know that this is the usual process, something which you can't stop. And if you doubt me, go approach an Administrator and ask her/him to give you a frank assessment of what I just told you. That much I can say and tell. --Dave ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 22:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Although International TLDs are implemented and are official, just how commonly are they used? How many sites are out there that specifically are linked to via a URL that has an international TLD in it, in comparison to a URL that ends in say .sg? -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 06:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Since they're officially recognized, they should be included in the infobox and what have you, as on other articles. Whether they should be linked or their articles should be merged/redirected is a separate issue entirely. --Cybercobra (talk) 09:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)