Talk:Northeastern University – London/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

University of London - International Programme

According to Binda Rai,Head of Corporate Affairs and Communication of University of London International Programmes; no agreement was ever made to award University of London Degrees and or give the NCH affiliation status to the NCH (which under the International Programme, it cannot). http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/media/press_releases/new_college_humanities.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elcor101 (talk • contribs) 08:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Syllabus

NB: would whoever is taking down the following, verifiable information, please stop doing so: if the NCH is not proud to be offering the UoLIP History syllabus written by staff at Royal Holloway, it would be simpler to say so, rather than removing this accurate information.

The stated aim is to offer high-quality education to rival that of Oxford and Cambridge, yet it seems to be offering units via the University of London International Programmes (UoLIP). This is obvious when comparing the NCH History programme (http://www.nchum.org/courses/history) with that of UoLIP (http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/holloway/history/syllabus.shtml).

Both, for instance, reference 'Modern Times: International Economic History c.1901-1990'. This is in fact an old Royal Holloway course, which presently runs as two half units on the RHUL campus in Egham (HS2006: Globalisation Capital and HS2209: International Economic Relations - http://www.rhul.ac.uk/history/documents/pdf/grouponecourses2011-2012.pdf). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Bob Aardvark (talk • contribs)

I can't find any secondary sources, let alone ones that meet Wikipedia's sourcing requirements, that support this claim. As there are no secondary sources, the claim is not going to be included in the article, as there is a policy aginst original research of this kind. Nevard (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The history syllabus published by NCH on their own website (http://www.nchum.org/courses/history) is identical to that of the University of London International Programme, which is a course led by Royal Holloway (http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/holloway/history/syllabus.shtml). The NCH history course (especially exams) is therefore identical to that studied by Royal Holloway students on the Egham campus (http://www.rhul.ac.uk/history/prospectivestudents/undergraduate/historydepartmentcourseunits.aspx), who pay £9,000 fees. This is patently evident from the websites of both organisations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.111.43 (talk) 11:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

If it's relevant, a media organisation might cover it, and then it could be mentioned here. Until then, no. Nevard (talk) 11:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

That's just how it works in this case. They are teaching LU degrees from the same syllabus, but with their own lecturers. Other colleges write part of their own syllabus and have that verified. It is for students to decide whether touching Prof Grayling's cloak and the rest is worth 9k a year :-). That's from London International on the phone. The MSM haven't mentioned it yet, so Wikipedia isn't allowed to believe that it is real :-) That's also just how it works, and is an issue with Wikipedia definitions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Wardman 86.152.37.47 (talk) 13:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

This is suppression of information in the public domaine. It can be substantiated by comparison, and through the webpages of both the UoLIP and NCH, and cross referencing at RHUL (see http://personal.rhul.ac.uk/uhra/030/Courses.html, when we used to teach Modern Times face-toface). However, I am the programme director of the UoLIP BA in History, and WROTE both Modern Times, Globaling Capital and International Economic Relations, and teach them both at RHUL and for the UoLIP.

Just check: http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/holloway/history/academic.shtml

BA History Academic leadership

Founded in 1885, Royal Holloway is the third largest multidisciplinary College in the University and one of only a few colleges nationally which is allowed to use the ‘Royal’ title. The College enjoys an international reputation for the highest quality teaching and research across the sciences, arts and humanities.

The Department of History, the largest History department in the University of London, is rated in the top national assessment category for teaching and is recognised as world-leading in its research. Further details can be found on the Department of History website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Bob Aardvark (talk • contribs) 13:13, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

This appears to be suppression of information in the public domaine. It can be substantiated by comparison, and through the webpages of both the UoLIP and NCH, and cross referencing at RHUL (see http://personal.rhul.ac.uk/uhra/030/Courses.html, when we used to teach Modern Times face-to-face). However, I am the programme director of the UoLIP BA in History, and WROTE both Modern Times, Globalizing Capital and International Economic Relations, and teach them both at RHUL and for the UoLIP.

Just check: http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/holloway/history/academic.shtml

BA History Academic leadership

Founded in 1885, Royal Holloway is the third largest multidisciplinary College in the University and one of only a few colleges nationally which is allowed to use the ‘Royal’ title. The College enjoys an international reputation for the highest quality teaching and research across the sciences, arts and humanities.

The Department of History, the largest History department in the University of London, is rated in the top national assessment category for teaching and is recognised as world-leading in its research. Further details can be found on the Department of History website.

Dr Bob Aardvark (talk) 13:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

If you're the program director of the UoLIP, you may have a conflict of interest adding that material to this article, and regardless of that you ought not to be edit warring with different accounts. You're adding what we call original research, specifically this kind, which is a policy violation. Before that material can be added to the article, you would have to find a reliable secondary source that makes those points about the New College of the Humanities. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 17:50, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear SlimVirgin: I appreciate the explanation. Perhaps I erred by not referening the multitude of course with identical titles for both the UoLIP, RHUL & NCH, which are the RHUL course written for the UoLIP, and for which the NCH will be providing 'additional tutition'. Nevertheless, the broadsheet media in the UK are now reporting this in a verifiable, consistent and relevant way, so we'll just let this story unwind in good order. I understand the page has now been locked until 20 June: while it won't be me - and I have only edited this under my usual non de plume - we'll see the truth of the syllabus coming from Goldsmiths (English Lit), Birkbeck (Philosophy) and RHUL (History), amongst others, come out. Rare that I make additions to Wikipedia, and I will take the editing comments onboard for next time. Dr Bob Aardvark (talk) 03:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The fact that New College of the Humanities is teaching from the University of London International Syllabus in History, English, and Philosophy - courses originated by Royal Holloway, Goldsmiths, and Birkbeck (respectively), is now being reported by the Guardian. This is a reliable secondary source for the "primary research" that has been claimed above: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/06/ac-grayling-private-university-syllabus AC Graying is quoted as justifying this through the value add of additional course material, which comprises the separate diploma: "We offer University of London international programme degrees, so that is the syllabus we are preparing the students for. It is reductive to describe it as repackaging … There is a quarter more content, contact with some rather distinguished people, and preparation for professional life." — Preceding unsigned comment added by SouthLDN (talk • contribs) 19:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree. This article is quickly developing and its unacceptable for there to be too much editing of reported fact. As long as citations are clear it is important that any controversial aspects about the new college are reported on.Totallycrazyman (talk) 00:38, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Check this out... http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/media/press_releases/new_college_humanities.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.142.89 (talk) 00:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

Bloomsbury, London, England, United Kingdom -- the Milky Way, the Universe? :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 08:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure If there were Galaxy and Infinity fields. Who's to say that everyone knows where London is? Baltimore? Kinshasa? If the fields are there, I'm all for using them. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The first sentence says this is a new British university in London, so there's need to over-egg the pudding. Also see WP:OVERLINK. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 08:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Linking The infobox comes first when you're editing the page, so if anything, you shouldn't mention that it's British in the text. But really, an infobox's purpose is to capitulate information in the article. The infobox should contain information that is present in the body of the article as that is its purpose. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I've left London, England, but I had to remove United Kingdom because it looked a bit odd. The country (not the state) is England, and in terms of the university system there is a difference between England and Scotland so that's the parameter that would matter more than UK. I also removed British from the first sentence as you suggested. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 18:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources

To add I don't think I'm going to be editing this page, but other users might find this valuable: http://www.metafilter.com/104270/Oh-the-humanity . —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:57, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Justin. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 23:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Editing policy

Concerned that Nevard is editing far too much content off the main page by being restrictive in terms of the sources he calls legitimate. Reasons for removing sourced information should always refer to either a wiki policy or an alternative source and should not be removed due to individual preference. As such, the recently removed Blogspot source was unacceptable as it contained relevant information from an official organisation (Education Activist Network).Totallycrazyman (talk) 01:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

And where are the reliable sources discussing the comments of the EAN/socialist workers party/whatever on the New College of the Humanities? Anyone can set up an organisation and have an official website for that organisation. Nevard (talk) 02:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

ffs so much heated discussion from people with little knowledge but strong beliefs

For many years it has been possible for to gain a degree from the UoL as an external candidate. This means you take their exams, get your papers marked by their examiners, and get a certificate from the UoL. The entry requirements are very, very low, because there isn't a real limit on student numbers. The cost is something like 9k a year, I forget the exact price, and this does not include any teaching or tutorials. Instead you get given reading lists and access to some sort of online forum thing. Essentially, it is a money-making enterprise for the UoL which competes with the Open University to provide open-to-all distance-learning degrees in the UK. Course materials consist of normal university textbook reading lists, which you buy for yourself, just like almost any other humanities course at a university in the UK.

Other institutions teaching to this syllabus is entirely normal and legal and legit. Where confusion has arisen - most likely due to false marketing by the NCH, though poor journalism may also be to blame - is that in the initial raft of articles on the NCH the British national press all described it as a brand new university offering its own degrees. This has now back-fired on the NCH because the newspapers are now reporting that the NCH has scandalously "plagerised" the UoL syllabuses and course materials, and that it isn't an accredited university and is therefore a scam. This is hyperbolic reporting designed to sell newspapers - the NCH may well be guilty of underhand marketing, but teaching to the UoL external program is entirely legit. And as for course materials, almost all universities in the UK now provide reading lists of textbooks rather than providing their own special course materials (partly because a textbook with thousands of hours work put into is usually going to be better than course notes, and partly because it allows students to learn to deal for themselves with conflicting viewpoints and arguments, rather than having conclusions spoon fed to them).

As it happens I dislike almost all the academics involved and wouldn't go to the NCH if you paid me, but some of the commentary on the NCH now appearing is wildly inaccurate. Juichirotanizaki (talk) 05:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your latter point about accuracy. People seem to have misunderstood what's being said, though NCH is partly to blame, I think, because their website is a little unclear. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

well-sourced concerns about this venture

There are well-sourced concerns about this venture. For example these points have been deleted:

• The CEO Jeremy Gibbs was previously chairman of Futuretalk plc which became insolvent in 2010 and is currently Deputy Chairman of Scientific Digital Imaging plc a loss-making AIM-listed company
• There have also been allegations that the new institution is a form of profiteering in the context of public sector university cuts. and questions about the veracity of some of the financial claims

Can anyone give a valid policy-based reason why these points should not be restored to the article? NBeale (talk) 06:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Normally there needs to be a good reason to include text. Articles are not really a place for lists of claimed defects. That kind of material is more suitable for a blog. Johnuniq (talk) 07:21, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree about the Gibbs sentence. But there's nothing wrong with the Independent and Guardian articles (though text drawing on them might have to stick closer to what is said and avoid words like "profiteering" if it isn't used). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

UoL International Programmes and NCH

According to UoL Press Release

http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/media/press_releases/new_college_humanities.shtml

there is no special arrangement between UoL and NCH whatsoever. Students apply for UoL International Programme courses INDIVIDUALLY and enjoy relevant benefits (access ro online resources and facilities)independently of whether they are at the same time registered with NCH or not.

The following line should be removed or edited from the introductory section of the article as it is based on NCH dodgy marketing and does not accurately reflect the situation:

"The college will use the University of London's student and teaching facilities, including its library, students' union, and halls of residence.[5]"

Please, read the UoL press release; it makes everything clear. NCH is a private institution that prepares students to sit UoL External System exams. This should be clear in wiki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.34.178 (talk) 10:05, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I have removed it, per WP:SELFPUB, in consideration of this press release which seems to show some contradiction with what the institution itself is claiming. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Location

The most obvious question, and one that has to be addressed in the lead, is "where is it?" I've therefore retained for now the sentence: "The college will use the University of London's student and teaching facilities," which is what Grayling said. I think he means by this that, as students registered for University of London degrees, NCH's students will use those facilities, as any other students registered for those degrees do. But I'm not certain this is what's meant, so I've emailed the college for clarification. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:17, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is what's meant, per this press release:

"No agreement has been concluded as yet regarding access to the Senate House Libraries by NCH students, but financial terms exist for the payment of fees for access by any students of University of London International Programmes and this would, of course, apply to students of NCH. The position is similar for the University of London Union, and it should be noted that all students of the University of London International Programmes are eligible for associate membership for a payment of £20 per annum, but are not eligible to compete competitively in University sports teams."

SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:21, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

[copied from SV talk]

Re this: how is "David Latchman, the master of Birkbeck College, announced on June 6 that A.G. Grayling had resigned his position there, and added that there was no agreement between Birkbeck and NCH to share facilities" not to be found here? And why restore something I deleted without participating in the extant discussion about it? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:24, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I can see it's in the source and didn't say otherwise; it's also still in the article, though not entirely relevant now. Could you elaborate? SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Forget the first part -- I thought it was part of your "rmvd some material not in the sources", and I see now that you moved it. In the same edit you restored a passage I had deleted in the preceding edit, as per discussion in the section directly above, without participating (yourself) in that discussion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, the material not in a source wasn't that. The sentence I restored about using the University of London's facilities is needed because otherwise we wouldn't be saying in the lead where it is. I posted above by way of explanation. Apologies for the confusion. It's clarified now because the University of London has confirmed what NCH said, though the university made it quite a bit clearer than NCH did. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

One problem here is that the new editors posting on this talk page (who say or imply that they work in academia, though it might just be one person) have misunderstood what NCH and the University of London are saying. Other people seem to be communicating that misunderstanding to newspapers. So this is one of those cases where primary sources are valuable (so long as there are no SYN violations), and secondary sources should be chosen carefully to avoid spreading the confusion. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

University

All the sources are calling this a private university (Times Higher Education, Guardian, BBC, Telegraph, etc), so we should follow suit. The Privy Council argument is irrelevant to how ordinary words are used; they regulate only how the word is used in titles in the UK (whether something can call itself University of X), and they're luckily not in charge of how Wikipedia uses it. We should simply follow the sources. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 10:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I've followed Times Higher Education in calling it a private university college. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Times Higher Ed calling it a 'university college' is just as inaccurate as sources calling it a 'university'. Both terms are legally-protected in the UK, so cannot be used without Privy Council approval.

The Privy Council argument is entirely relevant here. Common descriptions are normally fine on Wikipedia, but this is an area where the common usage is incorrect. The correct usage therefore takes president. This article cannot describe the NCH as a 'university' or 'university college', as it is not either.

I have therefore changed the article to read 'higher education college', which acknowledges that the NCH is in the same sector as universities. - Green Tentacle (talk) 22:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

As per edit summary -- we're not obligated to follow UK law, instead follow the sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The article for tsunami is there and not at 'tidal wave', despite the latter being a more common term used to refer to it. On Wikipedia, accuracy ALWAYS goes before common terms. - Green Tentacle (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

We go by the sources here. If the Times Higher Education is calling it a university college, there's no reason for us not to follow suit. What the privy council says about how words are used in titles in the UK does not change how English speakers around the world use language. :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 23:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Clearly (as you are all having this debate) this is a contentious term. The BBC have run an article on the debate about this term that even quotes a government spokesperson saying ""New College for the Humanities is not currently a university college. The college has not yet applied to use this title," said a Bis spokesman." Regardless of the truth, I think it is clearly most valid to use to least disputed term (in this case collage) and it should be changed immediately. User:Heathcoteheat —Preceding undated comment added 11:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC).

We have a big problem on this talk page with people not reading the sources they cite. That source [1] and all the others say it may not use the word university in its title. But it may refer to itself as a university college, as may other sources, clearly. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 13:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

A. C. Grayling

The new college will probably be using Grayling's 2002 work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.8.149 (talk) 11:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Grayling has written books with titles like "Wittgenstein" and "Russell". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.105.19 (talk) 09:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

mention of "University of London degree"

In the introductory section it is currently mentioned: 'Students registering with NCH will register for a University of London degree, and will use the University of London's student and teaching facilities.[5]'

This is vague. Students registering with NCH will be individually and independently registered with London International Programmes (ex 'External System'). I propose the use of a clear discription like the one already found under the 'College structure' section, viz. 'NCH students will register for University of London degrees under the University of London International Programmes'. There has been some confusion about the relation between UoL International Programmes and NCH, especially in the media. The wiki article should be totally clear about that.

UoL IP has been offering courses for 150 years. Students register individually and independently. They only pay for registration and examinations. If they pass the exams they get a UoL IP degree (equivalent but not the same with internal degrees). How you study is up to you. You may study alone, you may consult your dad's cousin, the sage on the mountain, or attend an institution, private or not. These institutions only help you prepare for the UoL exams and have nothing to do with UoL whatsoever. NCH is such a preparation centre offering additonal coursework that has nothing to do with, and contributes not towards, the UoL degree.

Furthermore, under 'Courses' section we find 'the Guardian writes that the same degree courses are available from Birkbeck, Goldsmiths, and Royal Holloway colleges for ₤9,000 or less;' Well, the Guardian is wrong. They have in mind Internal Uol Courses. Uol International degrees cost roughly 3.000GBP IN TOTAL for a BA(check fee sections of their official website).

The wiki article should make clear to prospective students that : Students registering with NCH will have to be individually and independently registered with London International Programmes. Registration with NCH and succesful completion of NCH courses is neither necessary nor sufficient (i.e. it is irrelevant) to obtaining a UoL degree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.34.178 (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

misleading info about NCH 'affiliation'with UoL

At the table beneath the photograph it reads "Affiliations: University of London degrees[1]"

This is false information. First of all there is no institution that goes by the title "University of London degrees". Secondly, UoL press release (http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/media/press_releases/new_college_humanities.shtml) states clearly:

'...Independent Teaching Instuitions vary considerably in their scale and fees, this partly reflecting the level of local costs. The University of London International Programmes has a process for providing and re-confirming recognition to selected Independent Teaching Institutions around the world, the purposes being to indicate where good-quality support may be obtained and to facilitate co-operation to continuously improve the student experience. This does not preclude any institution from deciding to teach University of London International Programmes curricula and examinations without seeking recognition.The University is aware of the intention of the New College of the Humanities (NCH) to provide tuition to students of the University of London International Programmes. There is no formal agreement between the University of London and the NCH concerning academic matters. As with any other Independent Teaching Institution, a dialogue will be maintained about when to apply for recognition under the Institutions Policy Framework, but normally a track record is required. To avoid any confusion, it should be made clear that NCH is not, and will not be, a part of the University of London. Meanwhile it is legitimate for NCH, as an entirely independent institution, to provide tuition to students of University of London International Programmes as other institutions in London and around the world do. These students’ applications for registration for degrees would be made individually with the University of London International Programmes.

Therefore, it is clear that the '"Affiliations: University of London degrees[1]"' is misleading and has to be removed 85.73.34.178 (talk) 13:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

It makes the information you want to impart easier to follow if you post it once, and keep it in the same section if it's about the same material. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 13:24, 7 June 2011 (UTC)