Talk:Nightwing

Skills/Abilities

In the DC ENCYLOCPEDIA it's clearly stated "Nightwing's Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only to Batman" Which is a huge compliment since Dick, agewise is even younger than Bruce was in Year One when he first donnned the cape and cowl!! I'd say Nightwing is equal to Dardevil in Martial Arts abilities which is why he's just a notch below Bruce. Dick is still in the top five Martial Artists in the entire DC universe.

If you disagree then give feats/examples?

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No disagreement with the exact wording ("Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only") since it could be taken to mean that he is second place in that combination of skills. That exact sentence should stay. However, unless I am missing an event, Nightwing has never beaten or tied with any of the top contenders for the #1 position. In fact, Nightwing was defeated by a martial artist that was in turn defeated by Connor Hawke. And Connor Hawke has been defeated by Lady Shiva and Constantine Drakon. And Lady Shiva has been taken out by Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain (although Shiva's beaten them both at times). Nightwing is one of the best in the world, but I've yet to see anything in the comics to validate calling him a contender for the top position.

I don't think that Dick Grayson is among the top 5 martial artist in the DCU, because we have Shiva, Cassandra Cain (who is dead, but may be returning), Batman, Constantine Drakon, Connor Hawke, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger. Is pretty sure that Nightwing is among the top 10, but no way he is one of the five greatest.

--Kidfried 03:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Dick is clearly the world's greatest acrobat, and might very well be in the top 5 martial artists some day. But he's been shown too often (even in his own book) losing to or struggling with martial artists that aren't in the top 5. He's maybe in the second tier, with the likes of Wildcat (nothing to be sneezed at), but he's not, as someone said, a "contender" for the number one position just yet. D1Puck1T 09:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

SORRY PUCK BUT NO ONE EVER SAID DICK WAS NUMBER ONE!! But he is clearly listed as being "second only to Batman" and a "master detective and martial artist" and been trained in all the mentioned combat discplines. No need to mention in skills/abilities about the battles he's lost and won because thats not what an encylopia is supposed to do. Just read anyother hero bio.

Also, what your problem is your going by low end showings and not HIGH end showings where he's proven more than a match for a meta like Slade and pinned Shiva down in one of his earliest appearences. colossus34 09:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't want this to become a fanboy argument about who is the best fighter in the world. Wikipedia is not a message board. The problem I have with seeing him listed as "number two" is that to be number two you're a contender for number one. And I've never seen anything to make me think he is. I have seen him being taken out with one kick from a distracted Lady Shiva. But like you said, you can't just go by his worst day. But you can't ignore it either.

Is there a compromise we could put in? Mention what the DC Encyclopedia states, but say there's debate to its validity due to his losses in the books?D1Puck1T 17:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this shouldn't be a fanboy argument, lets just state what DC has him listed as, "second to batman in Detective and martial arts skills" which implies that he's just a notch below Bats(who himself is below Shiva, Cassandra, Dragon etc) therfore Dick is obviously not a contender for number #1, since its not stated.

Also, theres no contraversy to mention because what happens in every single issue of a comic is often at odds, depending on the writer. One issue Batman is stalemating Shiva and the next issue he has a tough time in hand to hand combat against Two-Face or Riddler. Still, we accept that Batman is a great fighter but just "jobbing" to his villians. Its not something that needs to be mentioned in every single superheros bio. colossus34 18:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"Second to Batman" sounds like a perfect compromise to me. And I agree that nobody should be judged by how they did on their worst day. We've seen Catwoman take out Black Mask in one page, but Batman ends up stuggling with the guy. Whatever. Power levels are going to vary with the writer's needs; that's comics for you. I'm just saying that no writer I know of has ever shown him holding his own against Richard Dragon, Batgirl, Shiva, or Bronze Tiger, so it seems a bit premature to be saying "second only to Batman" (especially with ongoing debate as to how well Batman matches up to those fighters). But "Second to Batman" is a nice way to address all that without making the article messy.D1Puck1T 23:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Move to "Dick Grayson"?

Should we move this article to "Dick Grayson" and make "Nightwing" a redirect? There are plenty of reasons to do it: 1 - This article is an extensive biography of Dick in all of his crime fighting secret identities, not just Nightwing, and we have no way of knowing for sure if Dick will still be Nightwing after "One Year Later...". 2 - It seems odd to discuss Burt Ward, Chris O'Donnell, Earth-Two Dick Grayson and All-Star Dick Grayson in an article titled "Nightwing", since none of them ever wore Nightwing's costume. 3 - "Dick Grayson" is a more universal title, which covers all facets of his life, and is a name known by virtually anyone with decent amount of Batman knowledge, even more than "Nightwing". If you hadn't picked up a comic book for 25 years, you wouldn't know who Nightwing is, but sure as hell you'd know who Dick is.

I think Nightwing should remain a redirect for the time being, and everything about Superman's brief Pre-Crisis stint as Nightwing should remain here for context, but if there's a new Nigthtwing after "One Year Later...", it might be necessary to make "Nightwing" (much like "Robin") a brief article talking about the origins of the superhero identity (which in this case are Kryptonian), and directing to the articles about the different people who have fought crime under it at different times (Dick Grayson, the potential future Nightwing, and Superman in Pre-Crisis continuity). --Ace ETP 20:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

There doesn´t seem to be any negative response to my idea of change this article's name to "Dick Grayson" yet...I'll wait a few more days and if there's still none I'll try to change it myself, and make "Nightwing" a redirect (which will be hard as I've never done a redirect)... --Ace ETP 19:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, the persona of Nightwing is as much Dick Grayson's as Batman is Bruce Waynes. Is there a seperate page on the Batman persona and all who have doned the cape and cowl(Dick, Azreal, etc)? Of course not!!! And Superman's brief pre-crisis stint using the name is insignicant when you consider Dick created the persona of Nightwing as his own so even if someone steps into his shoes briefly after OYL(which I doubt) I think this your idea is premature.

Perhaps you're right, but I don't see why the guy slated to write the new Nightwing series after OYL is remaining tight-lipped about having someone else taking over the identity unless he actually plans to do so. --Ace ETP 18:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

An interview at Newsarama with the editor of the Outsiders has confirmed at least one Nightwing post-IC is Dick Grayson, though it also gives indication that there's another Nightwing. --User:driscolj 01:09, 17 Feburary 2006 (UTC)

The persona of Nightwing might be Dick Grayson's, but Dick Grayson is more than the Nightwing persona. Like Ace ETP said, it's kind of weird that the Burt Ward Robin is listed under "Nightwing". Having said that, I don't feel very strongly about it.

Incidentally, current indications seem to be that there'll be three Nightwings One Year Later: Dick, Jason (based on Dick) and Kara Zor-El (based on the pre-Crisis Kandor version). Daibhid C 23:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I vote for waiting. Obviously they want our heads to explode. Why don't we just wait and see what happens in OYL to decide. Frankly I think there should be a split in the Batman page, or at least a 'other Nightwings' section/page but we don't know what will happen yet. Either it'll all change and someone (Jason Todd?) will be Nightwing or nothing will change. -- Ipstenu 02:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Given the fact that the Outsiders features the Dick Grayson Nightwing, I'd say he'll be the permanent Nightwing. Interestingly enough, though, we now have confirmation that the second Nightwing OYL is Jason Todd:

[1] Wonder where they'll go with that.... --user:driscolj 02:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

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How come there's no mentioning about his relationship with Barbara Gordon or any of his love life? HoneyBee 11:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Appealing to youngsters.

According to Bob Kane in his autobiography, it wasn't DC Comics who thought Robin would help appeal to youngsters, it was Kane and it seems mostly Bill Finger. Kane states that his then boss Jack Liebowitz didn't want Robin in the book and though mothers would be upset at a chile fighting gangsters. He allowed Kane and Finger a shot to prove him wronng and said if it went bad they would remove Robin from the book. After the positive responce to The Boy Wonder Kane joked to his boss that they better get rid of him now and his boss agreed to let Robin stay.

FWIW, Bob Kane's been noted for taking considerable credit for the Batman line that isn't really his. Not that Robin didn't turn out well, but I suspect Kane takes more credit than is deserved. Ipstenu 18:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Pointer to Nite-Wing article

Could someone familiar with the Nite-Wing character do something with the Wiki article? I would post this in the discussion for said article, but no one would see it. (I'd do it myself but I am pretty ignorant of the character.) Korvac 16:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Apparently there is a stub at 'Nite-Wing' and a real article at 'Nite-wing'. Perhaps the real article should be migrated to the correct place? Korvac 13:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Like Korvac, I have a request for someone more knowledgable: In the 'Nightwing Begins' section, should it be mentioned that grayson turning to Superman for advice and a name would be a slap in the face to Batman (who has an ongoing rivalry with Superman)? badmonkey 12:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Images/condensed

I dont want to remove anything, but this article is getting really cluttered. Some of the images need to be removed. --DrBat 13:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think it looks great with all those images. Several people have done a really good job transforming this page from a mediocre description of a recycled Silver Age Superman alter-ego to a great biography of Dick Grayson. Removing the images would only detract from it. --Ace ETP 19:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Not all of them; just some. There are too many, and the article looks cluttered as a result. --DrBat 00:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's a bit too much, especially towards the more recent stuff. It seems more like a summary of events in recent issues than an an encyclopedic entry of Dick's life. I like the images though.

--Nelchael 13:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

IMAGES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!! What needs to happen is someone needs to summarize whole parts, mainly recent infitie crisis info and other recent stuff into clear, consice, taut paragraphs. But I actually think we need MORE IMAGES!

--Colossus34 13:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Trimming

Elements of this article require a good trim (I have made a start), Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedia not a sub for actually reading the comics. If the section here on infinite crisis is actually longer than that on the trimmed and editted infinite crisis page, then work needs to be do! :)

I removed the One year later bit - I don't see what purpose it serves at this time. Once we know what has occured it might be worth putting such a section in.

--Charlesknight 20:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Red X

Actually, now that I think of it, there is a point to be made about the Red X persona in the Teen Titans TV show. Regardless of whether or not that Robin is Grayson, he is the Robin that grows up to be Nightwing in that Universe, and Red X was a significant alias of his. A very brief passage might be acceptable in that light. D1Puck1T 22:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Red X would be more appropriate on the Robin page, but this could be argued both ways. Ugh. Robin (Teen Titans Animated)? I almost dread creating new pages about this, but a spin-off for the other Robins, makes this 'I don't belong to any continuity, neener!' Robin different. -- Ipstenu 16:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

This article is for the character of the comics, not for the one of the animated series - kidfried 21:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. This article is for Nightwing, period. There isn't a seperate page for the comics Superman and animated Superman, despite some notable differences in the two.

That said, the animated Robin is a unique problem since he seems to be a gestalt of every Robin - hence Tim Drake's bo staff and costume, but the Nightwing destiny and romance with Starfire. On the one hand it seems logical to discuss him on the Robin page. On the other hand, he's leading the classic Titans, grows up to become Nightwing, and dates Starfire, so it seems like he should be discussed here. This might be the one case where a seperate page just for an animated character might be called for, since he doesn't seem to fit either page "just right".D1Puck1T 00:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)