Talk:Helen of Troy

Helen v. Helen of Troy

I suggest the entry for this Helen be entitled Helen of Troy, which is how she is most commonly known. user:Deb

I agree. Ruakh 17:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Might be premature because we don't have enough other entries under "helen" to warrant a disambiguation page. Ellsworth 22:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

How is that a justification for not titling the article with the name by which nearly all readers will look for it and all writers will link to it? Regardless, there seem to be enough other Helens for disambiguation. --Tysto 05:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, should be Helen of Troy. --JW1805 (Talk) 05:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not entierly sure about this. In Classical literature, she is simply referred to as "Helen" and "Helen of Troy" is a common misnomer because she wasn't actually from Troy. Helen of Troy redirects here. That should be enough for readers who are searching for this article. The only thing that makes particular sense here would be a retitled to Helen (Greek mythology). CaveatLector ^{Talk Contrib} 17:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The title should reflect how she is commonly known, not how she was referred to in ancient literature. If I see an article titled 'Helen' I won't immediately know who it's about.81.65.84.133 (talk) 18:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that "Helen" should be a disambiguation. The article should be renamed per the manual of style. --Pstanton (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Origin of the Helen myth

I have removed the following paragraph, which as far as I can tell is not mainstream (or even not-so-mainstream) scholarship. Moreover, the language "was believed to be" doesn't tell us who initially believed her to be this.... --Macrakis 03:48, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Helen was believed to be initially the chief mother-goddess worshipped through the area, until the arrival of the Dodecatheon. Then, she was replaced by Zeus, and her role was demoted and 'survived' through mythology only to the most beautiful woman of the world.

Why was the painting removed? Fuelbottle | Talk

Origin of the Helen myth II

Hi, I remembered something from Robert Graves which might be worth noting as a possible origin of the helen myth (or at least her association with Troy). Graves suggested that 'suitors of Helen' were really 'those who were mindful of Hellespont', and that the oath which the Greek kings took was to support the rights of any member to navigate the Hellespont, despite the Trojans and their Asiatic allies. Graves goes on to say that "the Helen story comes, in fact, from the Ugarit epic Keret, in which Keret's lawful wife Huray is abducted to Udm". I can't vouch for its accuracy, but Graves is a pretty robust source so I thinks it's worth weaving in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.220.108 (talk) 20:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Dates

So the Trojan War started in 1194BC? Glad we cleared up centuries of scholarly debate there. Would be quite nice if someone could cite a source for this astonishing discovery.

If not, shall we just stick to saying that many scholars consider it to have taken place sometime between 1300 BC and 1200 BC, as the Trojan War article does? The timeline could be given in a "0: birth of Helen; +12 Helen abducted..." format.

sjcollier 11:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for the tone of that, I was having a bad day. My point still stands, though: this timeline is faintly absurd.

sjcollier 20:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The source is the timeline of Eratosthenes. As it already says in the Trojan War article. This is not a newfound discovery but the traditional date. User:Dimadick

Actually, 1194BC is only one of the traditional dates. But considering that we're talking about a mythological war which may or may not correspond to a historical war, why should this article bother to give the date at all? Furthermore, since this article is about a character in mythology, rather than a historical individual, why should we give a timeline? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The timeline is based on Mythical chronology of Greece, which I have put up on AfD. If, as seems likely, the chronology article is deleted, I will remove the timeline from the article. If it contains useful info that isn't elsewhere in the article, I'll put it in the appropriate spot, of course.

If anyone thinks the timeline should stay, this would be a good time to say so... --Akhilleus (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The timeline takes the year of the fall of Troy by Eratosthenes and the passage of years between events given by other ancient writers. Mythic does not mean timeless or undated. User:Dimadick

As I already noted, 1184BC is only one of the "traditional" dates of the fall of Troy. Why choose Eratosthenes? Why choose a date at all? As I already noted, the war is mythological, and its historicity is a matter of debate. Helen, too, is a mythical figure, and few classicists would say there was a real Helen. Giving her a timeline and precise dates implies that we can place her in actual history, which is misleading.

Furthermore, I see no citations for any of the dates, and it's clear that the timeline is synthesized from several different sources, which means it's original research. I'm taking it out--again. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Where do you find original research? Her age at abduction as twelve is given. The years preparing the war and the duration of the war is given. The years of wondering the sea with Menelaus is also given as eight which fits nicely with Aegysthus only reigning seven. Again I don't see why "mythological" makes it fiction without meaning. And Eratosthenes gives the date most widely used User:Dimadick

I don't see any citations in that section. I see no reason given to use Eratosthenes' date for the Trojan War. I see no source given for the length of the journey back from Troy.

More importantly, I see no source given that says the ancient Greeks thought that Telemachus visited Sparta in 1174 BC. I see no source given that says modern scholars think Telemachus visited Sparta in 1174 BC. It's a calculation that the editor who put together the timeline performed, and it's an original synthesis of several sources. To me, that's original research. More importantly, it's absurd--if you went to a classical scholar and said "hey, when did Telemachus visit Sparta? 1174 BC or 1150 BC?" you'd be told that the question is absurd--because Telemachus' visit to Sparta is not a historical event. Please stop putting the timeline back in. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Check again. That is ten years after the fall of Troy. And the Odyssey clearly claims it takes place ten years after the fall of Troy. "Classical scholars" are not particularly authoritive if they do not take into account textual references in favor of their own ideas. User:Dimadick

The Odyssey places its action ten years after the fall of Troy, obviously. But where in the Odyssey does it say that it happens in 1174 BC? Nowhere, clearly. So, whoever put together this timeline took two pieces of information--Eratosthenes' date and the idea that the Odyssey happens ten years after the fall of Troy, and combined them. This might seem like a straightforward calculation, but since the ancient Greeks gave many different dates for the Trojan War, it actually means that someone has chosen Eratosthenes' date as the correct date, in preference to these others, and then performed a set of original calculations to come up with the dates of Telemachus' visit, Helen's death, etc.

Also notice, since you mentioned textual references, that there doesn't seem to be any support for saying that Helen was twelve years old when Theseus abducted her--on the contrary, we can say she was 7, or 10, or somewhat older if you go with the variant that Iphigeneia is Helen's daughter. Giving a date for this event involves choosing one version as authoritative, and this again seems like original research.

None of this, of course, deals with the basic fact that it's silly to give calendar dates for a mythological figure. It implies that Helen actually lived and died, and I don't think you'll find too many classical scholars who agree with that. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Actualy the Twelve-year ageis also from the Greek Mythology series from the Academy of Athens but I am not sure what was their source. As with most mythological human figures, keep in mind that people believed them to be their historic ancestors and dismissing them as fictional is not clear cut. You have not also removed the dates but all references to the events mentioned on them. User:Dimadick

Are you talking about Kakridis' Hellenike Mythologia, or what? Also, what events do you think are missing from the article? As far as I can see, everything that was in the timeline is covered in the "Life of Helen" section, but maybe I missed something. 18:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I am talking about a six-volume edition by multiple scholars of the Academy of Athens, first published in the 1980s and reprinted ever since. Where are the events of her dramatic death at an old age by hanging? User:Dimadick

I'm guessing you mean Hellēnikē mythologia, Kakridis, Johannes Th., Christopoulos, Georgios A., Bastias, Iōannes K., Athens: Ekdotikē Athēnōn, 1986. v. 1. Eisagōgē sto mytho; v. 2. Hoi theoi; v. 3. Hoi hērōes, topikes paradoseis; v. 4. Hēraklēs, panellēnies ekstrateies; v. 5. Trōikos polemos. Kakridis, is, I guess, the editor of this series, rather than the author. Or do you mean something else entirely?

Who says Helen died by hanging? The Odyssey gives her immortality, and I've never seen an account of her dying in any fashion. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess you did not notice the following text of the timeline:

"Helen seeks refuge in Rhodes near Polyxo, widow of Tlepolemus, an old friend of hers. Tlepolemus was famously the first man to be killed during the Trojan War. In revenge for her husband's death, Polyxo orders her maidens to pretend to be the ghosts of the many dead seeking revenge on Helen. Helen commits suicide by hanging herself from a tree. After her death she is deified." Which is a variation of the account of Pausanias the geographer, (3.19.10.)

Our article on Pausanias provides an external link with a 1918 translation of his work. See the following text:

"The account of the Rhodians is different. They say that when Menelaus was dead, and Orestes still a wanderer, Helen was driven out by Nicostratus and Megapenthes and came to Rhodes, where she had a friend in Polyxo, the wife of Tlepolemus. For Polyxo, they say, was an Argive by descent, and when she was already married to Tlepolemus shared his flight to Rhodes. At the time she was queen of the island, having been left with an orphan boy. They say that this Polyxo desired to avenge the death of Tlepolemus on Helen, now that she had her in her power. So she sent against her when she was bathing handmaidens dressed up as Furies, who seized Helen and hanged her on a tree, and for this reason the Rhodians have a sanctuary of Helen of the Tree."

Which I thought was quite a popular legend. Curious you haven't heard of it. And for clarifications:

• Tlepolemus was a son of Heracles and Astyoche. Astyoche was a daughter of Phylas, King of Ephyra who was killed by Heracles.
• Nicostratus was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Pieris, an Aetolian slave.
• Megapenthes was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Tereis, no further origin mentioned. User:Dimadick

No, it's not a very popular story. Timothy Gantz doesn't mention it in Early Greek Myth, which is very comprehensive. But thanks for supplying the Pausanias reference; now that we have a source, I'll put the story into the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems clear-cut to me.

1. Eratosthenes' dates are not widely used. They are very rarely used, and I doubt if any scholars take them seriously.
2. In any case, unless Eratosthenes gives those dates against the name of Helen, to put the dates in this article is original research. You'd have to publish them first. Meanwhile, I think they should be taken out.

Andrew Dalby 20:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

They are the dates used by the publications of the Academy of Athens. What do you mean not taken seriously? User:Dimadick

Very few people believe that there was a ten-year war lasting from 1194-1184 BC, or that Troy fell on the 24th of April. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, after saying "I doubt if any scholars take them seriously", maybe I should have added (like Alice after she had hotly denied that a "treacle well" could exist) "There may be one."  :) Well, if this one scholar at Athens has actually published a timeline for Helen, I suppose we could cite his publication in a footnote. Otherwise, not. Andrew Dalby 16:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek pronuciation

What was Helen in Ancient Greek? 'Elen? 'Elene? 'Elena?

It was probably something like Helenee in Attic, and diferently in othere dialectsIkokki 16:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Helen's suitors

I have added a list of suitors, just like there is one at Penelope. I hope there is no objectionIkokki 16:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Is anyone sure about the (previous) etymology? Of her name supposedly being derived from the root *sel-. As you can see, the American Heritage Dictionary clearly says otherwise. Lemegeton 17:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary isn't a great source for Greek etymology. However, it is superior to no source at all, which is what the *sel- etymology has right now. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

still better than this thinkbabynames.com nonsense. Why do they bother to give etymologies if they cannot be bothered to look them up (sigh). dab (𒁳) 12:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone think that the explanation of her name could be so simple as meaning Helene, and there is no need to go futher searching for complex explanation that doesnt exist. Hellas (Ellas) mean 'El'(light) and 'las'(land). Land of the light. Perhaps Helen was simply a representation of the beauty of Hellas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perfman (talk • contribs) 06:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

the "timeline" section

I find the "timeline" section a bit odd. Surely we don't want to give the impression that we can give calendar dates for the life of a mythological figure. In addition, the article given as a reference for the dates, Mythical chronology of Greece, looks like a huge pile of original research to me. I'd like to take the "timeline" section out. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the timeline section. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I would find a timeline usefull, even though she is mythological. Fiction takes place along a timeline of the story, does it not? I would like to see what historical and mythological events coincide with Helen of Troy's life. 64.85.225.83 07:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)kahiki

Thank you for removing the "timeline", Akhilleus. I seem to remember that one of history's most over-rated figures spent a lot of time puzzling these detailed dates into his "universal history"— when he wasn't praising virginity or scribbling invective. Material to give the simple hallucinations. --Wetman 13:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sparing the life of Helen

In the version I learned of this myth, Menelaus spares the life of Helen at the request of Odysseus, to whom he owed a debt. I'll dig out my texts and see if I can verify it. 68.39.127.114 02:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

There been lots of vandalism recently... Ustimika 19:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if it's vandalism, but the section titled "Stereotype" is extremely poorly written. May I suggest that someone should review the section with a view to possible removal? 92.54.176.82 (talk) 12:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Citations

There are many sections and statements that have no citations at all. Can someone please cite their information? Thanks. 64.85.225.83 06:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)kahiki

expansion ideas

Helen created a lot of stereotypes about women which were fought against by feminists later on. Also, writers such as Yeats used her image to describe women who urge men to go to war, a common theme used by writers when working with the Helen image. This might be good for a future Helen expansion. Wrad 03:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Helen's Children?

I read somewhere that Helen had another kid. I think his name was Pleisthenes? I don't know, has anyone else heard that?

He is mentioned only in fragments from the Cypria where it is mentioned Helen took him with her to Cyprus. He might have had an expanded role in the lost epic but this is lost to us. Possible father was Menelaus who accompanied her in her journey to Cyprus.

Hesiod mentions another son of Menelaus and Helen, named Nicostratus. However Apollodorus names Nicostratus as a son of Menelaus by Pieris, an Aetolian slave.

The Cyprian Cycle also mentions four sons by Paris: Aganus, Corythus, Bunomus and Idaeus. However Corythus is mentioned elsewhere as childr of Paris and his first lover or wife Oenone. In fact his legend claims falling in love with stepmother Helen abd being killed by a jealous Paris. For the others practically nothing is known. User:Dimadick

Ambigouous

Does

Helen is the daughter of Zeus and Leda. Leda was loved by Zeus, who raped her in the guise of a swan. As a swan, Zeus fell into her arms for protection from a pursuing eagle.

mean

Helen is the daughter of Zeus and Leda. Leda was loved by Zeus, who raped her in the guise of a swan. As a swan, Zeus had fallen into her arms for protection from a pursuing eagle.

If so, I request permission to change it. --69.150.163.1 15:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Real

Wasn't it discovered that Helen of Sparta was actually a real woman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawk08210 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The Face that Launched a Thousand Ships

Isn't there an older reference to Helen having the face that launched a thousand ships? In Orestes, Euripides jokes that her face launched a thousand funerals. Well before Christopher Marlowe. Wkerney (talk) 10:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you know which passage of the Orestes says this? Unless you've read it in Greek, you're reading a translation, which may be departing from the original to make an allusion to Marlowe. I've never seen the phrase credited to anyone but Marlowe. --Akhilleus (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Small Typoes

I apologize if I'm doing this wrong, but the page is protected so I cannot fix them myself. Hopefully someone else can. In the Helen article, under the Cult section, there are two typos for worship(ped). They are: Isocrates writes that at Therapne Helen and Menelaus were worhipped as gods and Clader argues that, if indeed Helen was worhiped as a goddess.

That is all. 66.215.240.29 (talk) 00:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. Good spot. -Phil5329 (talk) 01:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Marriage to Menelaus

{{editsemiprotected}} Currently reads: "Following Tyndareus' death, Menelaus became king of Sparta because the only male heirs, Castor and Pollux, had died and ascended to Olympus."

This suggests patrilineal rulership, whereas it's generally assumed (see Hughes, and Wikipedia entry on matrilineage, as well as The Odyssey for the quest for Penelope's hand in marriage) that rulership was passed down the queen's side. It's also at variance with The Illiad, where Helen is unaware that Castor and Pollux have been killed before the war at Troy - she looks for them in the ranks of the Greek army but can't find them - which means she must have been queen of Sparta before Castor and Pollux's deaths. I would suggest that Menelaus only became king of Sparta by virtue of Helen ascending to the throne after Leda's death/abdication? Euripedes' Orestes also suggests that Tyndareus was alive at the time of Menelaus' return to Mycenae. See also the afterword on Tyndareus' Wikipedia entry.

Suggest either deleting it or replacing it with "After their marriage, Helen and Menelaus assumed the thrones of Sparta. It is unknown whether this was because of Leda's death or abdication from the throne." User:RobBuckley

 Done Welcome and thanks for the contribution. The question of matrilineage or patrilineage seems tangential to that section, so I replaced the existing text with the simple fact captured in your first sentence. Regards, Celestra (talk) 20:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It is definitely inaccurate and OR to say that "After their marriage, Helen and Menelaus assumed the thrones of Sparta". After their marriage Menelaus had the right to succeed Tyndareus, but this does not mean that he succeeded him immediately after their marriage. For more, on this succession, and the modern theories see Finkelberg, 68–69. Hughes' analysis is not so convincing, neither so scientific.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Readers in the US will probably have better luck accessing Finkelberg at [1]. Also, it's probably a good idea to remember that Helen and Menelaos are mythical characters, not historical figures, so the article does not need to get wrapped up in minutiae. Simply report that, according to the myths, Helen and Menelaos became rulers of Sparta after Tyndareos abdicated. --Akhilleus (talk) 12:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but it is interesting, because modern historians and researchers try to find out the rules of succession in pre-historic Greece, studying and analyzing the myths of the Heroic Era. Other books say that Menelaus succeeded Tyndareus after the Dioscuri were immortalized [2]. To me there is no consensus that in pre-historic Sparta the line of succession was based on matrilineage. Of course, my own research may be flawed, and I am open to other interpretations. But what Hughes says can't be the (only) criterion on this issue.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as the specific sentence is concerned, I definitely agree with Akhilleus' neutral proposal. This is after all what we only know from sure based on the mythological sources. Nothing else is sure; of course, if the Dioscuri were alive during the succession, this may be a strong argument in favor matrilineage. In any case, I think that the article should somehow deal with this issue, maybe in a footnote. Helen is a mythological person, but her myth touches various interesting themes and unanswered questions of history and pre-history.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I unfortunately I don't have access to this book, which seems to deal in detail with Tyndareus' succession. I might think about ordering it.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

_______________________________________________________________________________________ I'm not well versed on all of this but I did note one thing:

Tyndareus was afraid to select a husband for his daughter, or send any of the suitors away, for fear of offending them and giving grounds for a quarrel. Odysseus was one of the suitors, but had brought no gifts, because he believed he had little chance to win the contest. He thus promised to solve the problem, if Tyndareus in turn would support him in his courting of Penelope, the daughter of Icarius. Tyndareus readily agreed and Odysseus proposed that, before the decision was made, all the suitors should swear a most solemn oath to defend the chosen husband against whoever should quarrel with him. After the suitors had sworn not to retaliate, Menelaus was chosen to be Helen's husband.

" After the suitors had sworn not to retaliate."

THAT'S NOT what Odysseus suggested NOR what King Tyndareus had the "suitors... swear...". They swore to "...defend the chosen husband against..." everyone else.

Didn't a number of these "suitors" go to war with each other over the years? Any chance this "solemn oath" was involved? (Paleocon44 (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC))

IE *wel- doesn't have anything to do with *sel-

One of the first paragraphs is mixing *wel- and *sel- together relating Saranyu with Helene. WTF?!? Please change it. It's retarded and makes it obvious that you editors are more concerned with typing than reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.214.48 (talk) 09:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Civility is a good thing, and the use of the term "retarded" is clearly not civil, and arguably unneccesarily maligning of all sorts of people. I would also say it is juvenile.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

He's only maligning retards, like people who write gibberish like 'arguably unneccesarily [sic]'. Your comment belongs on his talk page, not here.81.65.84.133 (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Questions and comments

1. The introduction of this article says "was the daughter of Zeus and Leda (or Nemesis), daughter of King Tyndareus". This is contradictory.

The "Birth" section says "although her putative father was Tyndareus, she was actually Zeus' daughter".

I am confused now. Who is the father of Helen? I am thinking it's Zeus. If this is the case, the sentence in the introduction is wrong and should be fixed.

2. "Homer narrates that during a brief stop-over in the small island of Kranai, where, according to Iliad, the two lovers consummated their passion."

This sentence needs to be fixed.

3. "Nicostratus was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Pieris, an Aetolian slave. Megapenthes was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Tereis, no further origin."

I don't understand the relevance of the above information. I believe it should not even be part of the "Fate" section. All this is about Menelaus and not about Helen.

ICE77 (talk) 06:48, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

• Helen → Helen of Troy
• Helen (disambiguation) → Helen

– Classical mythology is not as dominant in Western culture as it once was, there could also be a Western systemic bias here. Unqualified references to "Helen" would not necessarily suggest her to most people these days. I am aware that strictly speaking she was not originally from Troy, but most people think of her as "Helen of Troy", which already redirects here. PatGallacher (talk) 14:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• • Considering "Helen" is a Western name, a Western bias is inevitable and unavoidable. There are no "Eastern" topics called by the name "Helen", are there? I'm neutral on the proposal, however, as I see no strongly compelling arguments in either direction. Powers ^T 20:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support. I would say that Helen of Troy is by far the most common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support.. Whether or not she actually is from Troy, that seems to be the name by which she is best known in English. •••Life of Riley (T–C) 01:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
• I support changing the name to Helen of Troy. Then readers would know from the title alone if they were at the right article or not. But this article is definitely primary topic for "Helen". It got 65708 page views in the last 30 days. The Bollywood actress got 16809. Nothing else is the same league. Kauffner (talk) 13:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)