Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anarchist stamp

Anarchist stamp

Anarchist stamp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Doesn't meet notability criteria. Mentioned in very few sources (the two listed on the page being an out of print book about stamps from the Spanish Civil War generally and another book containing "16 portraits of anarchist luminaries - Godwin, Stirner, Proudhon, Goldman, Berkman, Herbert Read, Durruti, Bakunin, Louise Michel, Zapata etc - together with an essay by Colin Ward on anarchism and stamps, and an afterword by Clifford Harper on his own personal connections to the postal service"). I couldn't find any reason why anarchist stamps are interesting in a way that is distinct from stamps generally, or even that an 'anarchist stamps' is considered a thing. AutomaticWriting 16:35, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philosophy-related deletion discussions. — I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 16:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Keep Not only does this article seem substantiated by multiple, reliable sources, the topic also seems notable in that it documents how anarchism emerged in a notable way that I think would surprise most people. On doing a book search, it seems that this term can be used very differently than the way described by the current article, specifically, as the impact of an anarchist movement. However, there are a number of other sources:

• The Guardian article providing a great deal of in-depth coverage about anarchist stamps and their creators
• Describes the tradition behind anarchist stamps
• provides some examples of such stamps from Spanish anarchy
• this book, mentioned by nom, specifically providing in-depth coverage of anarchist stamps
• this book from the Spanish Civil War mentioned by nom, which unfortunately, cannot be searched.

The Guardian article is clearly the strongest here, and with everything else, I think this makes for a keep. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 17:52, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

• Delete This article is really just the intersection of anarchism and stamp. Including the facts that some anarchists have collected stamps and that the US Post Office issued a stamp picturing famous author and philosopher Henry David Thoreau, whom someone thinks was an anarchist. The existence of any stamp that is itself anarchist in some way is not established. The Guardian article mentioned above is about an English artist who prints pictures of imaginary "post-revolutionary" stamps. They are not real stamps in any sense. Note also the the stamps from the Spanish Civil War seem to have been issued by the government, so hardly anarchist. Nor does the fact, mentioned by one source, that Russia (or the USSR) issued a stamp honoring Leo Tolstoy make that stamp anarchist. BigJim707 (talk) 20:14, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Whether they are "real stamps" or not shouldn't be an issue here. They are still discussed in-depth using the subject name, and whether they are real stamps or not doesn't refute the notability of the topic. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 20:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see that. The sources all seem to be about "anarchists and stamps" not "anarchist stamp." BigJim707 (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

See here for usage in The Guardian. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 20:40, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

It talked about an artist's "designs for anarchist stamps" not actual stamps.BigJim707 (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, whether these stamps have postal value not, that's not a valid reason to delete the article. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 17:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• Delete. Doesn't seem to be any more notable than "flower stamps" or "lighthouse stamps" or any other kind of stamps. Admittedly I don't have access to the book with its essay by Colin Ward, but I don't see that the lead of the article, which discusses why an anarchist stamp is ironic, is based on any source. Even so, one source would not establish "anarchist stamp" as a thing. (The RAForum link is not a suitable source, as a. it appears to be user-generated and so not reliable b. seems to rely on the Ward essay, rather than being independent.) Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree that RAForum is unsuitable as user-generated, as I can find no place to register for the website to add content. Also, we've established that The Guardian is not the only source.

• Comment This archived French website documenting anarchist work also contains several examples and descriptions of anarchist stamps (for the page translated from French to English, see here. In French, the word for stamp is "timbre." I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 23:53, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I'm just going to copy/paste my comment from the article talk page, as it, I believe, establishes a good case for deletion: "The generally accepted criterion for notability is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list." (WP:GNG) I don't think that standard has been met here. I would also point out that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Merely being "a subject" is not sufficient to establish why we need an article on that subject. Similarly Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed." AutomaticWriting 00:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I realize you have not yet seen the new changes to the article, but your argument about why this page should not be kept per WP:DIRECTORY and WP:INDISCRIMINATE are not especially appropriate here. No one here has made an argument that this article should be kept because WP should have everything in it. The article is sourced, its notability is asserted clearly in the following ways:

• Their historical, political use during the Spanish Civil War,
• their use in labor unions,
• the value of some anarchist stamps to stamp collectors, and
• the fact that stamps have been produced recently and are written about.

All of this information is backed up by third-party, independent sources (or primary sources as necessary, such as actual pictures). I again fail to see why this article should be deleted, especially given my clean-up of the page. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 04:48, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - This article is was all over the place: an original essay on Anarchists as stamp collectors, List of anarchists on postage stamps, and List of things that anarchists might like to collect. Out of bounds delete, close call, and delete on those three components, respectively. If that means I'm recommending delete here, so be it. One MIGHT be able to change this to the second-mentioned, chop the hell out of it, and provide enough documentation for a save. I'm not holding my breath. Carrite (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - I have cleaned up the page and have explained the definition of "anarchist stamp" using the sources available. I have also narrowed the scope of the article to information relevant to that definition. The information about anarchists as stamp collectors was obviously not relevant to the page and I have removed it. At this point, it would be difficult to call the current form of the article original research, as I've sourced everything appropriately. I've deleted list-like information (it wasn't sourced anyway). I am now advocating for a strong keep (that is, my recommendation has changed above,) with these new changes, because the article is no longer in a state of disrepair. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 04:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - Topical stamp collecting is a world unto itself and I'm not going to pass judgment here. I'll strike some of my snark in the wake of a real effort to address concerns raised at this AfD. Carrite (talk) 05:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete. I've been collecting stamps for forty years and have never heard the term. Don't just take my word for it – there's nothing in any of the major philatelic publications such as Stanley Gibbons, Scotts, Linn's etc. The article is largely original research, and the references do not support any of the claims. The creator seems to be renaming propaganda stamps (which is a widely accepted term).--Dmol (talk) 10:43, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete. I also have been collecting stamps for forty years and have attended numerous philatelic meetings and read huge amounts of philatelic literature and I have never heard this term. This is simply not a recognised class of stamp among philatelists and they ought to know. This is a made up subject IMHO and close to being a spoof because it amuses people to connect stamps (usually issued by governments) and anarchism which is anti-state. At best, this is a possible section within Cinderella stamps in the section for Propaganda stamps as has already been indicated. I have checked four dictionaries of philatelic terms, including the latest by Stanley Gibbons and this term does not appear. Alternatively I would support a rename to Anarchism on stamps which would be a perfectly proper topical stamp collecting article, but there is no such thing as an Anarchist stamp. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

  Agree with the two comments above, but as someone who never collects stamps and finds the whole thing a bit weird. I think to justify the existence of a separate article on Anarchist stamps, some evidence would have to be provided that Anarchist stamps are considered a category of stamps in philatelic circles. I would support the proposal to merge whatever information has been gathered here into other suitable articles on stamps. AutomaticWriting 12:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this is the point. If it is not a recognised type of stamp among philatelists (and it isn't) then the article simply can't stand in its present form. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:47, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• Delete: Along with the two others above, I'm another long time philatelist who has never heard of this topic. It is certainly not recognised as a collecting interest by the American Topical Association whose main interests are here. The article appear to be a mix of some WP:OR mixed with a little WP:SYN that combines some postage stamps that individually have anarchist connections under an umbrella title. Incidentally I know a collector who collects "umbrellas on stamps" but that does not justify an article for that interest. If we keep this one then we can easily create numerous stamps article based only on the content, but as a stand-alone article it is not notable. ww2censor (talk) 15:24, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
• Agree to move to something more appropriate. This isn't (entirely) appropriate for Cinderella stamps because some of the stamps were government-issued and had postage value. I agree that this is more appropriate for something like Stamps with anarchist themes or Stamps with anarchism. However, I disagree that the information is not backed up by sources. They are, and I put a lot of work into this and careful wording to ensure the article reflects what info the sources provide. If you're claiming this is WP:OR or WP:HOAX, you need to let me know what information is inaccurate. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 15:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete: grab-bag of loosely-related topics (stamps made by an anarchist in anticipation of a future government collapse, official government stamps that happen to feature an anarchist, stamps issued and used by a labour union, that happened to be anarcho-syndicalist, during the Spanish Civil War), brought together by blatant WP:Synthesis. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 16:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

The official government stamps were also designed by well-known anarchist Clifford Harper. The scope here is not loose at all, and there's a consistent theme of anarchists designing stamps about anarchists. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 16:50, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Except that Harper's stamps were "for post-revolutionary post" -- the "he made his personal contribution to the Royal Mail" bit is clearly tongue-in-cheek. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:12, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking over the article again, you are probably correct (I've also removed from the beginning that they were government-issued based on your insight). But, why is it wrong to include stamps made for that purpose? It still falls within the scope of this kind of topical stamp. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 17:42, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

That they would be considered a single "kind of topical stamp" is less than clear (portraits of anarchists versus anarchist slogans), and lacking a source -- the purported commonality appears more in the 'reason for stamp manufacture' -- and even there the differences are greater than the commonality (the mere shared political ideology) -- between the fanciful creation of stamps "for post-revolutionary post" and the pragmatic creation of stamps in the middle of a civil war, in order to keep some (presumably ad hoc) mail service running. This would be a little like lumping together Soviet-produced AK-47s together with some (communist) urban guerilla's home-made zip gun, and calling them Communist guns. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 18:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Can the articles author provide a sample of one of these stamps? Something official, stamps are produced by governments not by authors of books. A link would do. --User:Warrior777 (talk) 19:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

These are the best I can find on this archived French website that is currently cited one the article. Some (not all) appear to have postage value. Also, I am stepping out of this AfD as I've said what I've needed to, so I will not be responding to further argumentation. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 19:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment would it be fair to say that there's a consensus forming around the idea that at least some of the information in the article belongs on Wikipedia somewhere, but that it doesn't warrant a standalone article? If so, we should start discussing mergers. AutomaticWriting 20:11, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

• If merging is the new consensus, I'm allowing myself to rejoin the discussion. So far, proposed mergers have been to Cinderella stamps#Political and propaganda stamps. Another possibility is to briefly describe this under topical stamp collecting. I would prefer the former, as its description seems to best capture the content in the current article:

...the term propaganda stamp is usually used to mean unofficial stamps produced to promote a particular ideology, or to create confusion within an enemy state.

One concern is that this definition isn't sourced to anything, but examples are provided. Regardless, what do others think of these mergers? I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 20:27, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm surmising that that's the consensus, since most objections aren't to the inclusion of the information in Wikipedia per se, but rather to having a separate article.AutomaticWriting 22:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)