Talk:Guarana: Difference between revisions

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guaranine, and caffeine - old postings, new info

The taste of Guarana is distinctive and unique, and the main reason for its success in Brazil as a soft drink. The main ingredient of guarana is guaranine, which is chemically identical to caffeine.

A few questions:

1. Does "the main ingredient of guarana" mean the main ingredient of the berry guarana, or of the soft drink guarana? (if the former, what is an "ingredient" of a plant?)

It's the main ingredient of the berry.

2. Is the berry a stimulant?

Yes, it is.

3. Is the berry caffeinated?

Yes. It contains up to three times the amount of caffeine you would typically find in coffee beans.

4. Is the drink a stimulant?

Not necessarily. Orginal Brazilian guarana soft drinks contain up to 0.5% guaranine/caffeine, which is hardly enough to make a difference. Modern energy drinks however contain up to 100 mg per serving.

5. Is the drink caffeinated?

Yes.

6. what does "chemically identical" mean? if they're "identical", why do they have different names?

Caffeine is the official name; the name 'guaranine' was given to it by scientists before it became clear that both were identical. The name 'guaranine' survived mainly because it sounds more interesting than 'caffeine'. It's all about marketing.

Are you definetly sure that guaranine molecule is identical to this coffeine molecule? File:Caffeine1.png Can you post some proof of this?

The NIH and the ACS are sure. That's why their chem databases give it as equal to caffeine, mateine, etc. See, e.g., [1] Jclerman 01:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I ask this because there is the possibility that you have made your statement based on empirical formula, not on structural formula. The diffrence is that the first one allows atoms to place diffrently and still have the same kind of formula, this is called isomerism (?). For example the ch3 at the bottom left connected to that nitrogen might instead be connected to the one on top and the carbon nitrogen double bond woud be at bottom.

This would alter the connectivity of said methyl group in multiple ways, so the resulting substance would no longer be isomeric to caffeine. For example, this would introduce an additional CH3-N-C-N-CH3 connection (resulting in a total of two such connections) that was not previously there. In effect, caffeine is an achiral molecule, which means it does not have any isomers. By the way, there are no "proofs" in science, only evidence. Aragorn2 19:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What you seem to be describing is an enantiomer, which is only one possible kind of isomer. Moving atoms around, as described, is a form of isomerism, just not enantiomerism.

However, as to the original question of whether guaranine is identical to caffeine, the evidence is here, which shows the chemical structure of "guaranine," identical to that of caffeine above. Chuck 20:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of different brands quality in comparison with South American brands of Guarana; many of them tasting nothing like traditional Guarana. It would do a wise consumer well to purchase a South American brand of Guarana, preferably of Brazilian origin.

Now this sounds a bit like an ad, how about some neutrality? -- 84.157.139.125 13:46, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Done - MPF 09:34, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And lets not forget that there are basically two kinds of guaraná-drinks; the soda-flavored one, as the article mentioned, and also something called by the brazilians as "natural guarana", which is not gaseified, very sweet and look rather dark (as in a pop/coke/soda without gas) as opposed to the soft drink that has beer-like colors.LtDoc 17:12, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Effects

Sad no one put this is there before. It's not just normal caffeine. Guaranine (natural caffeine in guarana seeds)compared to other forms of artificially induced caffeines is proven to have a 2 and a half times stronger effect on the human body (250%) when in the same amounts. Obviously meaning, for someone drinking something with guaranine, another person would have to drink 250% of artificial caffeine just to keep up.

Needless to say. Drink Bawls. >_<

Could you provide a citation for that? I'll mark that part of the article "disputed" for now. Chuck 20:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With no source cited, and being unable to find a source for this claim myself, I'm deleting it. Chuck 23:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

guaranine is . . . ?

Please give a reference to this statement:

<< and a unique combination of slow-release caffeine, theophylline and theobromine collectively referred to as guaranine. >> Jclerman 01:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scroll up to see the structural formula. Jclerman 02:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since ChemId gives this [2] where guaranine is a synonym of caffeine it's warranted to edit that sentence in the article. Jclerman 01:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

more on composition, now from Dr.Duke's db

Dr. Duke's Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases

Chemicals in: Paullinia cupana KUNTH ex H.B.K. (Sapindaceae) -- Guarana

Chemicals (alpha order, concentration given*)

ADENINE Seed: DUKE1992A 
ASH Seed 14,200 ppm; DUKE1992A 
CAFFEINE Seed 25,000 - 76,000 ppm DUKE1992A 
CATECHUTANNIC-ACID Seed: DUKE1992A 
CHOLINE Seed: DUKE1992A 
D-CATECHIN Seed: DUKE1992A 
FAT Seed 30,000 ppm; DUKE1992A 
GUANINE Seed: DUKE1992A 
GUARANINE Seed: DUKE1992A 
HYPOXANTHINE Seed: DUKE1992A 
MUCILAGE Seed: DUKE1992A 
PROTEIN Seed 98,600 ppm; DUKE1992A 
RESIN Seed 70,000 ppm; DUKE1992A 
SAPONIN Seed: DUKE1992A 
STARCH Seed 50,000 - 60,000 ppm DUKE1992A 
TANNIN Seed 85,000 - 120,000 ppm DUKE1992A 
THEOBROMINE Seed 330 ppm; DUKE1992A 
THEOPHYLLINE Seed 570 ppm; DUKE1992A 
TIMBONINE Seed: DUKE1992A 
XANTHINE Seed: DUKE1992A

(*) ppm = parts per million
    tr = trace

Guaranine has always been a Mixture

The mixture of caffeine, theophylline, theobromine and fatty excipient found in Guarana was coined by the German botanist Theodore von Martius in the 1700s as guaranine. Specific chemical mixtures, like guaranine, are often identified as a single ingredient in foods and beverages. The crystalline substance discovered by Theodore von Martius was a mixture of caffeine, theophylline, theobromine and fatty excipient. He did not isolate caffeine, nor did he coin the term to mean another name for caffeine. Guaranine is a mixture. It always has been a mixture. It always will be a mixture. If Dr. Duke wants to remove the theophylline, theobromine and fatty excipient from the mixture, it would no longer be the crystalline substance that Theodore von Martius discovered and called guaranine. --Buster Hawthorn 02:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 106: / Line 106: @@
  (*) ppm = parts per million
      tr = trace
+=== [[Guaranine]] has always been a [[Mixture]] ===
+:The [[mixture]] of [[caffeine]], [[theophylline]], [[theobromine]] and fatty [[excipient]] found in Guarana was coined by the German botanist Theodore von Martius in the 1700s as [[guaranine]]. Specific chemical [[mixture]]s, like [[guaranine]], are often identified as a single ingredient in foods and beverages. The crystalline substance discovered by Theodore von Martius was a [[mixture]] of [[caffeine]], [[theophylline]], [[theobromine]] and fatty [[excipient]]. He did not isolate [[caffeine]], nor did he coin the term to mean another name for caffeine. [[Guaranine]] is a [[mixture]]. It always has been a mixture. It always will be a mixture. If Dr. Duke wants to remove the [[theophylline]], [[theobromine]] and fatty [[excipient]] from the mixture, it would no longer be the crystalline substance that Theodore von Martius discovered and called [[guaranine]]. --[[User:Buster Hawthorn|Buster Hawthorn]] 02:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)