User talk:Babakexorramdin

new update

Sallam gorban, do you remember when i suggested the below about ethnicities? Well User:Parishan just won't listen to my requsts and keeps trying to make Iranain Azeris sound like Azerbaijani Republics. Could you help me in keeping an eye on his/her edits on Iranian Azeris so we can clamp down on the issue together? mercy, khodahafez User:Megastrike14

Azeri Iranian

Hey, ive made a new infobox on Iranian Azeris page, i hope you like it:)[[User:Megastrike14]

Look, i am an Iranian Azeri myself and I am very proud of being an Azeri. However, I am also very, very proud of being Iranian, propbably similar to yourself:) but when things like "an Iranian of Azeri descent" is put down. This indicates that he is an Iranian who originates from The Republic of Azerbaijan as it does not mention the Iranian and Azeri together. Therefore, i try to make my edits of Iranian Azeris more accurate by putting things like "he/she is an Iranian Azerbaijani or Iranian Azeri to make it sound as if he/she is not from the republic, but from Iranian Azerbaijan:)

Otherwise, i dont mean to cause any trouble. thankyou User:Megastrike14

thats it, im glad you understand me buddy. User:Megastrike14

Welcome to Wikipedia!!!

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Media's Founding and Encyclopædia Britannica

At [1] Brittanica says: "In 625 BC Cyaxares united the area's tribes into a kingdom" in reference to Media. It calls it a kingdom and the article is titled 'Media' not 'Median Empire' because you logically need a nation before it can form an empire. The Median Empire came later. You may have been mislead by this passage "Traditionally, the creator of the Median kingdom was one Deioces, who, according to Herodotus, reigned from 728 to 675 BC and founded the Median capital Ecbatana (modern Hamadan)." (emphasis mine) at [2]. The important word here is traditionally. You could protest that something 'traditional' does not have to be factually incorrect but I have found a quote from Brittanica showing it states that that tradition is historically inaccurate at [3] "petty Median chieftain subject to the kingdom of Mannai in modern Iranian Azerbaijan; later tradition made him the founder of the Median empire".

So I have established that Brittanica states that Media started in 625 BC. The irony is is that the person who put that date there originally was me. The date there previously was sometime in the 600s BC, perhaps 625, perhaps not. I drawing from the part on the 'Median Empire' on Wikipedia article '[Medes]' and from that Brittanica article, perhaps falling into the same misconception as you, changed it to 728 BC, only changing it back much later after I realized my mistake!--Supertask (talk) 00:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

"Media

dear super task your I cannot open the link http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9371723 but the other one states "petty Median chieftain subject to the kingdom of Mannai in modern Iranian Azerbaijan; later tradition made him the founder of the Median empire. " It says that he was first a subject of Mannai but then managed to establish (his own) Median empire. Also in the Irnian books is he recognized as the establisher of the Median empire. The confusion comes [put simply] because it is assumed that after a period Median throne got conquered( by the Scythians probably), but the Median royal clan again defeated them. See Diakonov on the History of Media.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Iran"--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)"

Inside the link you cannot open it says:

"Media

Ancient country, Middle East.

It was situated in present-day northwestern Iran and was home to the Medes, an Iranian people. In 625 BC Cyaxares united the area's tribes into a kingdom. In 614 BC he captured Ashur and later defeated the Assyrian empire and seized territory in Iran, northern Assyria, and Armenia. In 550 BC it became part of the new Persian Achaemenian dynasty under Cyrus II. Alexander the Great occupied it in 330 BC. In the partition of his empire, southern Media was given to the Macedonians and then to the Seleucids; northern Media became the kingdom of Atropatene, which passed to Parthia, Armenia, and Rome. In 226 BC the whole of Media passed to the Sasanians, another Persian dynasty."

You see it says it was united into a kingdom in 625 BC. You may be confused and think that Britannica has contradicted itself because you take this line "petty Median chieftain subject to the kingdom of Mannai in modern Iranian Azerbaijan; later tradition made him the founder of the Median empire" to mean that Britannica states he established the Median empire. This is a confusion of language, firstly, it simply desribes him as "petty Median chieftain", if he then became ruler of the Media it would state he "started out as a petty Median chieftain" or something like that.

In addition it claims "later tradition made him founder of the Median empire" whereas you say it states he established the Median empire. Tradition doesn't do things new (like establish a new empire) it is an established way of doing things. This Oxford University online dictionary definition agrees (this is the Tradition definition: "[• noun 1 the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation. 2 a long-established custom or belief passed on in this way. 3 an artistic or literary method or style established by an artist, writer, or movement, and subsequently followed by others.|http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/tradition?view=uk]" so when Britannica says "later tradition made him founder of the Median empire" it means that when the empire was already established later tradition (emphasis mine, later tradition, not the tradition of Deioces time) stated he was the founder of the Median Empire. As you can see the very reliable source of Britannica states that it was actually united in 625 BC.

"See Diakonov on the History of Media"

You would have to state exactly what Diakonov on the History of Media is and it would have to be recognized by Wikipedia as a more reliable source than Britannica if you want to use it to support the claim that the Median empire was founded in 728 BC.

"Also in the Irnian books is he recognized as the establisher of the Median empire"

Again, you would have to state exactly what books these are and they would have to be recognized by Wikipedia as a more reliable source than Britannica if you want to use them to support the claim that the Median empire was founded in 728 BC.

In any case what i see is that the source in Britanica gives a wrong date for the end of the Median empire (not 550 BC).

All other sources say 559 BC. By Diakonov I meant Igor Mikhailovich Diakonov (December 30, 1914 (January 12, 1915), Petrograd – May 2, 1999, St Petersburg) was a Russian/Soviet historian, linguist, and translator who should be ranked among the greatest authorities on Ancient Near East and its languages. Diakonov, both of whose brothers were distinguished historians, was brought up in Norway and graduated from the Leningrad University in 1938, joining the staff of the Hermitage Museum the same year.

His work:

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Product Description A history of the Medes, translated into Persian by Karim Kishavarz from the original Russian. The Medes were a group who settled in what is present-day Iran in the second millennium BCE. They created the first recognized empire until Cyrus the Great united the Medes and Persians into a single nation, which heralded the Achaemenid Persian Empire.

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Paperback: 664 pages Publisher: Elme va Farhangi (2004) Language: Farsi ISBN-10: 9644451066 Average Customer Review: No customer reviews yet. Be the first.

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[4]

Also in the Iranian history school books Deioces (Diaeko)is mentioned as the establisher of the Median empire. Maybe it is OK to say he established first a median kingdom which later was evovled into the Median empire? Is this a good formulation?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"Tarikh-i Mad (Paperback) by Igor Mikhailovich Diakonov (Author), Karim Kishavarz (Author)"

You still haven't said specifically what this book says to support your case. In addition Brittanica would be recognized by Wikipedia as a more reliable source than an obscure book anyway.

"Also in the Iranian history school books Deioces (Diaeko)is mentioned as the establisher of the Median empire"

This means nothing until you have identified these school books, where they state this and quoted the parts you think support this. Anyway, Brittanica would still be recognized as more reliable than obscure Iranian school books. Brittanica is a well known encyclopædia written by experts.

"Maybe it is OK to say he established first a median kingdom which later was evovled into the Median empire? Is this a good formulation?"

Only if you can cite proof for this version of events.--Supertask (talk) 19:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

How on the earth can you call Diakonov's work as an obscure book??????? He is an authority on the ancient near Eastern history.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously in its specialty of a history of the Medes it is not obscure. However, it is obscure in general as opposed to Brittanica. Please stop prevaricating and specifically cite a source that is more reliable than Brittanica.--Supertask (talk) 23:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

As I announced I have left Wikipedia because of much irritation. Do not take it personal. But I am tired of some peoples'behaviour especially with regards to the Iranian articles. As your answer: I may hurt your British feelings but allow me to diagree with you, Diakonov is an authority in the near Eastern history and in general Soviet/Russian sources have a higher quality than the British ones. In addition even encycl;opedia Britanica says that 728 BC Deioces united the Median tribes and became their king. It is the establishment of the Median Kingdom. Nevertheless for some reason you want to diagree. But again as I said I have left wikipedia and will not do much efforts here. You can go on with your pinion. It is now up to other Iranian editors to discuss with you. Good Luck.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

An Automated Message from HagermanBot

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! HagermanBot 17:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting to see that I who has always signed (maybe only in one case not), gets a warning and the vandalizer and political activists wo enjoy supports from some administrators usually to not sig. I ask why? The answer is clear. Babakexorramdin 13:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

More reading on Georgian Iranians

Muliani, S. (2001) Jaygah-e Gorjiha dar Tarikh va Farhang va Tammadon-e Iran. Esfahan: Yekta [ The Georgians’ position in the Iranian history and civilization]

Rahimi, M.M. (2001) Gorjiha-ye Iran; Fereydunshahr. Esfahan: Yekta [The Georgians of Iran; Fereydunshahr]

Sepiani, M. (1979) Iranian-e Gorji. Esfahan: Arash [Georgian Iranians]

Esfahan's tourist exhibition, mentiones the Georgians from Fereydunshahr and Fereydan.The report of this exhibition is available in the web site of the Iranian Cultural Heritage News agency at: http://www.chn.ir/news/?Section=1&id=12497

Saakashvili's visited Fereydunshahr and put flowers on the graves of the Iranian Georgian martyrs' graves, showing respect towards this community http://www.iran-newspaper.com/1383/830420/html/internal.htm

see also http://www.iranica.org Babakexorramdin 23:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

thanks

Thanks for the comments. َAbout Esfahan the overwhelming language is of course Persian speaking but as you mentioned there are Georgian, Armenian, Qashqai and Bakhtiari. I think in such articles we should mention the overwhelming language and then put also Georgian, Armenian, Qashqai, Bakhtiari.. به ویکیپیدا خوش آمدید.

--alidoostzadeh 01:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC) that would be a good idea, burt I think vandals like Pejman=Mohammed= Azxerbaijani would keep going on vandalizing anyway. Babakexorramdin 01:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Ali jan I have seen your newest solution. That is very innovative. Please apply the same formula to the other ostans too. I will definetly support it. Babakexorramdin 01:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey

Just wanted to let you know that I created a new article for Iran-Georgain historical relations because that section was getting way too big. You can find it here: Persia-Georgia relations.Hajji Piruz 18:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I have seen that. Thanks. Encyclopedia Iranica has a good section on that, but it makes some mistakes at some points. I have put some names in other fashion in that article in wikipedia. I will be editing it if needed using Persian sources such as Falsafi and Monshi.

Babakexorramdin 00:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A discussion at the ANI about your edits

Hi Babakexorramdin. A thread about your way of editing has just been opened here at the ANI. You are invited to participate there or else reading the verifiability policy and the burden of evidence and WP:CITE would be sufficient i believe. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 00:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

If someone sees my sources to which I refer not as sources then he has serious problems in understanding scientific discourse.Babakexorramdin 15:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom

Hi. Please be aware that you've been named as a party to an arbcom case here: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. Regards, Grandmaster 12:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell me mr. Novruzov, where and if only where I have been discussing something about Armenia- Azerbaijan? This makes no sense at all. --Babakexorramdin 20:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahar

Hello Babakexorramdin. I noticed that you frequently edit Iranian-Georgian articles. Do you happen to have any additional info about the purported Georgian dynasty of medieval Ahar? Many thanks in advance, --Kober^Talk 09:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello, unfortunately I have no information ready on this. But tell me please do you mean the north Iranian territory under the Georgian suzerainty in the Georgian Golden period? What is the exact date? --Babakexorramdin 17:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, as far as I know Ahar was ruled in the 12th-13th centuries by the Besheqenids, a Muslim branch of the Orbeli (?) family which had been expelled from Georgia. The Iranica article on Ahar contains very vague information about this dynasty. Vladimir Minorsky's "The Georgian Maliks of Ahar." BSOAS vol. 13/4, 1951, pp. 868-77 would be of great help, but, unfortunately, I have no access to the article. Best regards, --Kober^Talk 17:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the Kasravi´s book Shahriaran-e Gomnam provides the solution. it is the book which delas with the lesser known dynsisties and royal clans during this lesser known islamic period. I try to find the book and see what it says.--Babakexorramdin 20:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 Closed

The above named arbitration case in which you were named as a party has closed. The remedy is as follows: The remedies of revert limitations (formerly revert parole), including the limitation of 1 revert per week, civility supervision (formerly civility parole) and supervised editing (formerly probation) that were put in place at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan shall apply to any editor who edits articles which relate to Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts in an aggressive point of view manner marked by incivility. Before any penalty is applied, a warning placed on the editor's user talk page by an administrator shall serve as notice to the user that these remedies apply to them.

You may view the full case decisions here.

For the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | ^{Blast him / Follow his steps} 00:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok thank you. Now you have seen that I was not at all involved with Armenian/ Azerbaijan issue. It seems that Grandmaster (and his group) see everything which opposes their POV as something Armenia/Azerbaijan related. They also want to extend their issue into the Turkish and Iranian pages, which has nothing to do with them. --Babakexorramdin 09:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Turkic languages

Hi, You keep adding some factual accuracy tag to the classification on Turkic languages page yet you have no provided any further discussion on Talk:Turkic languages. All you have mentioned in your edit notes is "The classification is not accurate and seems very odd". Please provide further details on what is not accurate and what is odd on Talk:Turkic languages instead of continually adding a tag that doesn't seem supported. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 22:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I think I had answered you already and I suggetsed that you had not read my entry on the discussion page.--Babakexorramdin 17:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You are right. I had not read your entry because I did not see it buried in the comments for Talk:Turkic_languages#Alternative_representation_of_the_family_tree. I suggest that when you add tags for disputing something on an article you need to be more overt and start a new topic directly related to the tag on the talk page. That will make it easier for everyone to find. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

OK I understand what you mean. I better begin a new topic. What I did I wrote directly under the classifier's text in the talk page. A new Topic at the end of the page was better. --Babakexorramdin 07:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Re:Iranel-Kartvelebi

Hello Babakexorramdin. Thanks for your message. I agree that history writing is frequently dominated by nationalist scholars, but there are many credible historians in Georgia, Iran, Azerbaijan, and elswhere who never resort to the fabrication of history. I would like to cooperate with you on Iranian-Georgian topics when we both have enough time. I presume you belong to that community and your contributions would be of great value. Didi madloba again.--Kober^Talk 07:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope one day I can meet a neutral Historian from the rep. Azerbaijan!!!!! --Babakexorramdin 15:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Mazandarani ethnology

It would be my pleasure! Unforunately i rarely access Y! IM, But you can email me, If i found enough time, I also have plan for Georgian-Related Articles, Specially cities and towns in Georgia, Keep on contact. --Ali 05:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Salam Baradar

It is interesting to meet an Iranian Georgian. Is the Georgian community from the Safavid era or is it from the USSR era? I Would like to learn more as recently I was doing research on the impact of Shahnameh on Georgian culture and literature. If you can enable your e-mail that would be great since I would like to know more. --alidoostzadeh 05:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ther Georgian settlement of Iran has been from the Safavid era onwards. It has had huge impacts on the genetic make up of Iranians. Unfortunately there are some forces in Iran who want to keep silent on this. The Panturkists are the most active one in it by removing all Georgian impact on the Iranian history and attributing it to the Turks. The Safavid empire was driven by the Georgians, now the panturks say they were Turks. They have no answeres why then they fought in the name of Iran against the Ottoman Turks.--Babakexorramdin 10:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC) by the way send an email to me to the same ID at yahoo. Then I will respond to you by another email. --Babakexorramdin 10:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Georgians formed the most important component of the new army of Shah Abbas and without that army, without Allah verdi Khan, Iran would not have defeated the Uzbeks and Ottomons Turks. It can be safe to even go further that without this Georgian army, Iran might not have existed today. I'll write more about my opinion on pan-Turkism in an Email since I usually do not participate in modern political articles in Wiki. I am against all sorts of ethnic politics (any sort of pan) since they usually lead to bitterness of the heart and the soul. Here is a good article I recently read [5] (big article in Persian). But from a historical point of view, there are tens if not hundreds of descriptions of the features of Turks in Persian literature by Iranian authors (take Sanai or Nezami or Hafez for example) and all of these feature unanimously describe non-Caucasian looking people (that is our dear Turkomens, Kazakhs, Qirqiz and etc.) (Cheshm Tang, Soort-e-Pahn hamcho sepehr and etc.. or look at the statues of Seljuqs). So I think pan-Turkists have a dilemma if they want to describe the Turkic speaking people of Iran as primarily descendants of Turks of Central Asia and deny their connection with the rest of Iranians and ancient Iran. Khoda Hafez Shoma. --alidoostzadeh 00:53, 6

November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about panturks in Iran but historians and academicians does have very good answers why Turkish Safavids fought with Ottomans. First of all it was matter of religion and politics. Safavids fought not in the name of Iran, but in the name of Shiism against Sunni Ottomans. Also they fought with each other for political dominanation and consolidation of western turks. Shah Ismail send agents to destabilize Anatolia in order to claim it afterwards for himself and Ottomans fought to assert their assert their souveregnity over their eastern holdings. After Chaldiran Ottomans gained initiative and Safavids were more on defensive. There are many poems of Shah Ismail written in Turkish under pseudonym Hatayi

About Allahverdi Khan. His name is in Turkish (means Allah have given) and his title is a Turkish title (khan). He may be ethnic Georgian, but he conducted his activities in socio-political framework dominated by Turkish influences. 89.189.137.5 (talk) 10:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

You are very right my friend. --Babakexorramdin 07:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

ای میل زدم. پیروز باشید —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali doostzadeh (talk • contribs) 02:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Khorasani Turkic

Please see the discussion here [6]--07fan 22:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Safavid monuments

Gamarjoba Babakexorramdin. How are you? Unfortunately, I don't have that list at hands right now, but I'll try to find some info on that. Most of Safavid-era architecture was destroyed in the Qajar attack on Tbilisi in 1795. Of those which survived into the 20th century, the so-called Shah Abbas Mosque (seen on a picture, the one with a green dome and just opposite to the Metechi fortress), was demolished by the Soviets in the early 1930s. Another notable one, Rostom Khan's Palace is now ruined, but the government has recently launched a reconstuction project. I'll contact you as soon as I obtain more info. Cheers, --Kober^Talk 18:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Dzalian didi madloba. I also assume that much is destroyed in tsarist times. A painful but kept-in-silence page of history also tells that after Tsarist conquest of georgia many Georgian notable families of Shia faith fled to/ were depeorted to Iran. They usually bear the family name Gorji or it simply appears in their last name. Russians have kept this silent for a long time and the Iranian historians only wrote in general stressing more the royal history rather than people's history. I hope in the coming years we can shed more lights also on these issues--Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure... that's a very interesting episode of which we don't know much. Several Georgian nobles relied on Iran in the struggle against Russia early in the 19th century. Prince Alexander (Eskander Mirza), although Christian, spearheaded this movement. He was one of the closest associates of Abbas Mirza. His name was intentionally obscured throughout the Soviet period and resurfaced again in the 1990s. There was a general tendency to downplay the Georgian cultural and political ties with Iranian civilization, not only with the Islamic one, but also with pre-Islamic empires. Nakhvamdis, --Kober^Talk 19:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

AGF

Hi, Babek. You seems to make quite a lot of very valuable contributions as well as provide a good expertise in a number of topics. Wikipedia needs it. On the other hand, I cannot help but notice that you often behave in confrontational and uncivil manner (e.g. [7], [8], etc.). Wikipedia is a cooperative project that include a large number of editors of all backgrounds and political persuasions. The downside of this that behavior igniting conflicts considered to be very harmful and can lead to bans even for very valuable editors (that is always pity). In order to avoid this please read and follow WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:DICK, WP:V and other wonderful wiki-acronyms. Try to comment on the edits rather than on the editors, assume good faith, forgive past stupidities, etc. Believe me it pays off in the long run Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

dear Alex I assume that 1- Wikipedia as a sourse of knowledge should not be political at all. 2- It should not be a racist forum. 3- It should not be biased. Unfortunately wikipedia´s main adminitrators were too tolerant to anti-Iranianism. Just remember the comments " what the fuck is Iran" of the guy who could be Enumber/ Baristarim. Why double standards?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Brenda Shaffer

Why is Brenda Shaffer controversial? Further reading section is important for other users who may find it useful. By the way Nationalities Papers are a peer-reviewed academic journal of Routledge and academic journals are valuable sources per se. I suggest leaving reference to her article there, no matter how controversial she is. Cheers. - Darwinek (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Brenda Shaffer (an Israeli army officer) has misquoted many sources, and misinterpreted everything. The fact that she is published in the nationalities papers says nothing. While Iranians do not get easily published in such journals, the anti-Iranianists get free hand. In general [Anti-Iranianism]] is promoted these days in the USA and American publications. See the discussion on her article. I agree with you that further reading is a good thing, but why not excellent authors from the community itself? If the anti-Iranianists do not like Kaveh Farrokh or Ahmad Kasravi tabrziz why not Atabaki e.g.??? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I just add from time to time futher reading sections to various articles, mainly ethnic, historical and political. Well, if Shaffer is really from Israeli army, it is a problem. Should we then omit reference to her article from WP? - Darwinek (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I thgink she deserves her article and book get mentioned in her own article on WP. It seems that she likes this negative attention, because she has been invited time by time by the Iranian students in the USA to have a fair dialogue but she has declined time by time.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Iranian Georgians

Gamarjoba Babakexorramdin

I find in Hebrew that jews of Zagrum (or Zagrom or Zagram) from Georgia (I dont know where it is) migrate to Persia, with the leadership of Eliezer, in 1613, and they bild Farakh-abad and he helps abas to fight the ottomans. I dont know if they are same Georgians. I find it also her. it will be very interesting to check it. Geagea (talk) 00:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

gagimarjos geagea see the Kober0s page. I said I know about this but as I said I think they were Tat speaking jews rather than Georgian speaking ones.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Persian jews

Gamarjoba Babakexorramdin

There are many research about Persian jews in Israel. I belive you can find it also in English. As I told you I never herd that thiere are Georgian jews among the Persian jews, but I am not expert about it. I'll try to help my best.

firs article: (form her in Hebrew)

"chapters in the ancient legacy of Persian jews" by Shaul Shaked 1985

The article discribes the literature of the Persian jews until the Mongol invasion. He came to conclusion that the literature exist befor 14th century, and it is very different from the literature after 14th century. one of the source that mentioned is Cairo Geniza. From thiere Shaked learns a lot of things, for example that in the 10th century, beween the famous people among Persian jews, was T'ust'rim family and thiere origin was Bahuaz in H'ozastan and befor that from tuster in Iran. part of the Persian jews that imigrate from Persia to Egypte and Israel were Karaite Judaism.

Anothere interesting thing that mentioned is the Archaeological finding in the town Jm (Firuzabad) in Afganistan about big jewish community Persian language that disappear (from 1012-1218). Geagea (talk) 02:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the Karaite among Persian jews is a plausible fact. They appeared after the fall of Khazar empire. The percentage of jews in the Islamic caliphate rose sharply and many were settled in Iran. It is intresting fact the finding of a pre-mongolian jewish comunity in Afghanistan. Maybe Mongols killed them or they fled to other places. But why is not the same happen in Bukhara where there still live Persian jews? God knows. Also the Pashtuns are said to be of Islamized jewish origins.

The study of Persian jews should be done carefully and fact and fiction should be separated. Usually in all studies we deal with certain amount of speculations but in this case due to the strong anti-Iranianist lobby much nonsense is fabricated. of course there might have been those who hate the jews but it was never to the amounts as in Europe and it was certainly not normal to beat up the jews in the rain! --Babakexorramdin (talk) 03:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

the second article: (her in Hebrew)

"The history of the compelled jews of Mashhad according to Jacob Dilmanian" by Amnon Netser

He tell us that in the 19th century there was compelled jews in Tibriz, Mraga, Mianduav, Siahkhl, Shiraz, Blar and others. they were calld "jadid al-Islam" (new in Islam). Part of them stay Muslems and part of them convert back to Judaism. until today thiere are jews in Mazendran in the city of k'iak'ala that cald jadid al-Islamis.

there are only 2 people, except Jacob Dilmanian, that were compelled jews that tell us about temselfs: "Babi Iben Lutaf" (17th) and "Babi Iben Farahd" (18th). Dilmanian wrote in Persian language. he divided the period to 6. and the first one starts in the midlle of 18th durind Nadir Shah (or 1160 to hijra).

about the period before nadr shah thiiere is not inaf information. but the travler Aben-Batota visit Mashhad in 1333 that was big city that the Sufis said that it is holy city that other religios can not live there. but in the city Kom that holy to the shia were jewish community. also he mention that shah Abas tels to traveler name Antuan, in 1602, that he will give free trade to all religios.

I am Israeli jew origin from Georgia and I am not anti-Iranian as most the of the Israelis. I can understand that you fill anti-Iranian feelings from the around, but in my point of view it is better to ignore them. otherwise you will find yourself dealin only in talk pages. all the best. 03:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes Gia I know. The anti-Iranianist jews are usualy Ashkenazi and and mostly have double nationality of American- israeli. Not seen so many with other profiles, and I have never seen anti-Iranianist among Georgian jews and honestly also not among Iraqi jews. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry Babakexorramdin you are wrong about the Ashkenazi. the distinguish and other jews is only religious. There is not distinguish among the Israelis.

About the articles.

The research about the jews of Persia can tell much about the history of Persia and the origin of the people in Iran or cames from Persia. Geagea (talk) 22:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean there is no difference? Middle eastern jews are less racist towards Iranians, but the Ashkenazis especially those from the USA are. This gets its manifestations in trade, politics and public media. I might be wrong because it can also be because the non-Ashkenazi jews have less access to these instruments. But My personal experience also tells me the same story. I have had much encounters with Israeli jews of Iraqi, Turkish and Moroccan origins, however Israeli they were not racist towards me or used abusive language. But whenever in Europe or the USA there are always SOME jews who say the worst things to me and threat me like peace of dirt.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I can not argue with your expiriance, but I also meet Israelis of many kind evry day and belive me non of them is racist towards Iranians. And there is no difference between Ashkenazi or Sefaradi in Israel, the only difference is the origin. Geagea (talk) 00:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

yes maybe instead of Ashkenazi - Sephardi dichotomy I should have said origins. While there are of course many exceptions, the culture and the social political context of place of origins has great impacts on an individual.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Reference

You wrote here "It was sourced. DO NOT REMOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". HERE is the so-called source. Please tell me WHERE do you see the true Name; I didn't see anything. --Raamin (talk) 01:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The version you edited was linked to a Persian newspaper.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You see I'm from Iran, and I can read persian texts. Where exactly is the true name of Sami Yusuf written? I can't see anything, just plain area. Here is the archive, the source should be exactly given. --Raamin (talk) 01:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

you should check around the date of entry. see also here: http://www.bia2.com/pourya/?p=320. It is claimed that it is also mentioned in Hamshahri newspaper. type his name in Persian and do a search thre. I have also heard the news on the Iranian TV. So a search in IRIB.ir is useful too. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's not my duty to find reliable sources for an article; the person, who adds new informations should do it ;-) Raamin (talk) 02:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok ask the person to do it, or if it suit you better not to mention his rel name. It is Ok to me both.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Abbas Mirza

Hello Babak. I did some research on the problem. According to the Royal Ark website, Abbas Mirza indeed had a son called Iskander Mirza (see (y) in the list of Abbas Mirza's children on that page). It seems improbable, however, that this is the confusion with the Georgian Eskander Mirza because he was 16 years older than Abbas Mirza. Perhaps we should create a Disambiguation page to settle the issue. Best regards, --Kober^Talk 11:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Also I would appreciate if you could afford me with info about Abbas Mirza and his children. I know from the first hand that some of their offspring say we have Russian Roots. I assume that they have Caucasian roots (maybe were called Kniaz by the Russians?), This problem has intrigued me and the Persian books untill now could not give me any answers.If You come to Iran I will bring you to the (ruins) of their palaces with their pictures on their walls. Also you can meet the princely offsprings: Blondish, mostly with green eyes. They could be Georgian but regarding their appearance could be more proabbly Ossetian or Circassian. Do you know if he had any wives from these regions, or his children married nobles of that region? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to your question, I’ve discovered the things in which I have long been inetersted in. According to the same Royal Ark website, Abbas Mirza had eight wives, most of them of Qajar or Turkic origin: none of them seems to be Georgian. Of all these marriages, he fathered twenty-six sons and twenty-two daughters. One of Abbas Mirza’s sons, namely Bahman Mirza (1811-1886), was exiled to Russian-held Georgia in 1848. None of his seven wives seems to be Georgian. Bahman’s children were indeed granted the title of Knyaz Persidsky (with the style of His or Her Illustrious Highness) by the Russian tsar in 1886. His male descendats mostly engaged in Imperial Russian military service and intermarried with some Muslim noble houses of Russia; some of them died during the Russian Revolution and Bolshevik terror, while others returned to Iran with their families or emigrated to Europe and the U.S., where they are reported to live to this day (e.g., Susu Farmanfarmaian, Professor at Colorado University). Some of them seem to reside also in the Republic of Azerbaijan; for example, Suraya Khanum Qajar (grand-grandaughter of Abbas Mirza) who is an opera singer and National Artist of Azerbaijan.

Being of a relatively remote (around 1860s) Iranian (perhaps Persian) ancestry on my mother’s side, I’ve long been inetersted in Iranian-Georgian geneaological links. Unfortunately, the published material is extremely scarce, and I’ve not yet found time to look into archives while the family memory has already faded.--Kober^Talk 12:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I know one of these "Russian" princes who is born in 1930 and whose parents were born in Iran too. please send me an email at the same Id at yahoo. I cannot reveal personal names here. BTW member of Qajar family doesnot necessarily means Turkic. This is a lie which panturkists spread. Qajars were a dynsatic family and they married with nobles of whatever ethncity rather than keep themselves purely Turkic (that they werent any way). --Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know that Qajar does not mean Turkic. By saying "most of them of Qajar or Turkic origin", I mean that some of Abbas Mirza's wives were of the same Qajar clan and others came from the families which were Turkic but not directly related to the Qajar dynasty. I'll soon email you. --Kober^Talk 13:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I see forward to read your email. You will see which Iranians have these Caucasian roots. Untill now my findings say that the Caucasian root was most probably of Ossetian of Kartli! They look more fairskinned and blondish than georgians and they can go either with Georgian, Russian and even Circassian. This explains the ambiguity about their ethnic origins. unfortunately not much written but more fieldwork/ investigation, talk talk and finding evidences. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Babakexorramdin. I have not yet received any email, unfortunately. Best regards, --Kober^Talk 13:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

check it again, I sent it again.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Combat.

"1. To oppose in battle; fight against."[9]

I suggest you read the article and fully understand it before making further controversial (and wrong) claims. John Nevard (talk) 05:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

see your own dictionary. It shows that the USA was a combatant in Iran-Iraq war exactly because of your own definbition. USA invaded Iranian territory and bombed Iranian territory. In addition brought down a civilian airliner by military instruments. USA was a warring party indeed.

combat

SYLLABICATION: com·bat PRONUNCIATION: km-bt, kmbt VERB: Inflected forms: com·bat·ed or com·bat·ted, com·bat·ing or com·bat·ting, com·bats or com·bats

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To oppose in battle; fight against. 2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against. See synonyms at oppose. INTRANSITIVE VERB: To engage in fighting; contend or struggle. NOUN: (kmbt) Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See synonyms at conflict. ADJECTIVE: (kmbt)1. Of or relating to combat: flew 50 combat missions. 2. Intended for use or deployment in combat: combat boots; combat troops. ETYMOLOGY: French combattre, from Old French, from Late Latin combattere : Latin com-, com- + Latin battere, to beat (alteration of battuere).

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

CONTENTS · INDEX · ILLUSTRATIONS · BIBLIOGRAPHIC RECORD

--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep this debate on the Iran-Iraq War talk page guys, you're both violating WP:CIVIL at the moment. Ryan4314 (talk) 16:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

bad eh? when an admin violtes the rules :)))--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

providing that John Nevard is indeed an admin of course, he could be a good one but shouldn't intermingle with subjects he does not know sufficiently--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You should stop making personal attacks on User:John Nevard, it tarnishes you and therefore the edits you make i.e. When you make an edit other people will check your edit history & talk page, and when they see the arguments you've been involved in they'll assume you're a troll and treat you accordingly. Which would be a real shame as you've got a lot of potential and we need more good editors on the Iran-Iraq war article.

If someone else makes an attack on you, try to ignore it or even better quote the policy; "Comment on content, not on the contributor" ;) Ryan4314 (talk) 01:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Basically you are right but his attitude is truely insulting. Usually I comment on the content but some arrogant people keep repeating themselves disregarding all arguments in the factual debate --Babakexorramdin (talk) 06:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well then you've got to ask yourself "did you come here to improve the quality of articles involving Iran on the English Wikipedia?" or "did you come here to argue with other editors and tarnish your name, before your editing career has even got started?" Ryan4314 (talk) 13:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I am here for facts and reasons and oppose people who lie and spread nonsense for their agenda--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

hello

I added a picture of an Esfahani carpet trader to the Persian people page. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hello10242 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Its Ok however the waterpipes are now forbidden in Iran since last year!--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

USA as a combatant

Mate, please, I'm asking you nicely, please don't put the USA as a combatant whilst the RFC is still going on. I know how you feel about it, but think about it like this, there's no rush to put it up there, it'll "still be there tomorrow" so to speak. If the consensus decides it should go up there, then it will do eventually and no one will be able to say it shouldn't. I know you're concerned about how an RFC works, it works by a consensus and not by votes, so you don't have to worry.

I honestly am try to sound friendly, it'd be nice if you could message me back please to say you understand me. I see you're from Iran, I speak Farsi too, although I can't write much :) Ryan4314 (talk) 04:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Rysan I appreciate your efforts in this regard and do understand what you say, but I think when facts are there there is no need for deliberate consensus. What it looks like is that those people there neglect each single fact. It is like "oh we all know that milk is white but we say in this case that it is black. " For an outsider it seems only strange but knowing their affiliation it makes it understandable why they act like this.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you wrote back :) on Wikipedia, a consensus begins when there is what Wikipedia calls a "dispute", even if only 1 person disagrees with everyone else. It's wikipedia's way too ensure everyone's opinion is heard.

Believe me I am definately not a friend of the U.S.A, but I'm afraid it doesn't come down to "facts" as you say. It comes down to Wikipedia's policy, specifically this one, where it says;

"combatant1/combatant2/combatant3 – optional – the parties participating in the conflict. This is most commonly the countries whose forces took part in the conflict; however, larger groups (such as alliances or international organizations) or smaller ones (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding."

When I say "it doesn't come down to facts" I mean, we all know what the USA did during the war (there's even a whole article about it!) and no one can deny it. Whether the USA is listed as a combatant is of little consequence, "combatant" is just a name. I mean, people read the facts we write down and decide for themselves how bad the U.S is anyway.

Do you understand what I mean? I hope you know I do agree with you, but I am must try and follow Wikipedia's policy first. :) Ryan4314 (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

the thing s that those anti-Iranianist Americans are trying to intimidate us by their power of numbers. For them is wikipedia policy another war which they can win by force and disrespecting all established rules. Even they can change the rules in a way which serves their interets better.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You worry too much my friend ;) If it was true that there was some American conspiracy on Wikipedia, the "U.S. support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war" would be deleted and we would be blocked. Of course there are anti-Irani Americans on Wikipedia, but none of them run it! You see in order to become an "admin" you have to undergo a RFA where other admins check your edit history and see if you are neutral, before letting you become an admin. Ryan4314 (talk) 05:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

My experience is that in the USA those who have their mouth full of discrimination and anti-isms discriminate more. A lot of anti-Iranianists are not among the rednecks but among the socaled liberal New Yorkers--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea I know, the West is full of hypocritical "political correctness". Ryan4314 (talk) 15:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Sangiseri language

please give me example of similarity georgians and sangesari languages. baa sepaas--Ashkan h (talk) 16:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well that is exactly my point. I needed references. Though it is certainly possible that georgians were settled in Sangesar in the 17th century, I still need references which say this. TGeorgians were settled in mazandaran and there was a settlement of heir in Abbas Abad near Shahrud. So it is plausible that they were settled in Sangesar too. The Sangesari member of ours probably refers to the sangesari oral history which is OK to me, but wikipedia here works with more rigid sources, thats why we need either a written source or formulate the sentence better. I should also add that there is not necessary that languages be similar in order t can speak of ethnic intermingling. Language were passed by the female line, and in this case Georgians migrants were predominantly male, as they were soldiers and military. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Resources of the Caspian Sea

Am astonished of your statement! Please see [10]. KInd regards, --BF 00:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

Yes this is what I say, while there was a contract diving 50- 50 % after the collapse they do notagree on this. Then Iran came with a formula of each 5 litoral get 20% but they want t give Iran only 11-13 % which is unacceptable. The best thing is 50% for Iran and 50% to Russia as an heir of the USSR, if Russia wants o give the litoral states their share, each get 12,5 % , but then I ask why nt divinding on 15 republics? Because the whole USSR and not only the litoral states got 50%.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

On using "Arvand Rud" or "Shatt al-Arab"

Hi, Babakexorramdin :-) I notice that you have reverted my edits to Abadan, Khorramshahr & Persian Gulf, replacing the Arabic form Shatt al-Arab (which happens to be the standard English usage) with the Farsi one Arvand Rud (much less used in the English language).

In your edit summary you give three reasons for the reverts, namely that "Arvandrud is pretty common. If yoiu use it becomes more common. moreover abafan is an Iranian city" (sic). However, none of these reasons is a valid one for making the editorial decision of using the Farsi name in the English Wikipedia:

• Arvandrud is pretty common. First, it is not that common. Although the Farsi form is indeed used sometimes, Shatt al-Arab undoubtedly is the standard English usage (see examples of usage in English and on usage in major reliable English-language sources).

Second, our editorial practices call for using the standard English form, the most common, the widely used one, and not any "pretty common name".

Our naming convention on using English guideline clearly states that "[i]f you are talking about a [waterway] use the most commonly used English version of the name [...], as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works."

Our naming convention on geographic names also mentions that "[w]hen a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it."

There are two main reasons for having this editorial approach: it enhances consistency within the English Wikipedia, and its helps our readers by using the names and forms with which they're more familiar, the ones they're used to find when reading books, newspapers, magazines or watching TV. It's the principle of least astonishment :-)

Additionaly, as the naming convention on geographic names also mentions, "[b]y following English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called. If English usually calls a place by a given name, [we] use it."

Since the English language usually calls this waterway by the name Shat al-Arab, so do we :-)

• If you use it becomes more common. This call to promote the use of a certain name or form is the exact opposite of our editorial approach. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive: we restrict ourselves to passively reflect the names or forms commonly used in the English language, instead of actively promote the names or forms we believe should be used.

If anybody wants to promote the adoption of the Farsi name Arvand Rud by the English language, they're free to do so in a vast array of ways :-) But not on the English Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a venue for advocacy.

• Moreover, X is an Iranian city/river/province/theme/etc. This factor is simply not contemplated by our current editorial practices: we write following common English usages, in accordance to the policies & guidelines mentioned above, irrespective of the "nationality" to which the article is related. We aim to write neutral, fair, unbiased articles about Iran; but we also aim to write them in English.

These agreed editorial practices, described in policies and guidelines, should be followed. If you disagree with any of them, the proper course of action certainly isn't to simply ignore it, but to propose the desired modifications instead.

So, in accordance to the policies & guidelines mentioned above and the result of discussion in the Shatt al-Arab talk page, and having explained at lenght my reasons, I have reverted your edits to the three articles.

If you still think that the Farsi form Arvand Rud should be used in those articles, I ask you not to revert back, and to discuss the issue with me instead: I'm sure we can solve the issue by dialogue :-) Feel free to ask me any question you may have about this issue, or any other.

To keep discussions coherent, I would appreciate if you could answer here, in your talk page, please. I will see your post :-) Best regards, Ev (talk) 14:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Persia/Iran

Dear Kamran, Thanks for your note. My reasons are clear. 'Persia' is Western name of Iran and in various occasions because of historical and cultural reasons it's better that we use that and keep it alive (in my opinion). Please take a look to this piece; http://www.payvand.com/news/05/sep/1166.html 'Persia' is still valid and legal.

BTW we live in a same country! Hope to meet you.

Yours Pejman--Pejman (talk) 09:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

>>> Oh, I thought you were living in the USA (especially California), because there a lot of of Iranians go crazy for Persia and are ashamed of being Iranian. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

On the photograph of Majlis of Iran

With reference to our earlier, less-than-pleasant, exchanges ([11]), just wish to let you know that I have just noticed that they have now deleted the main photograph of Majlis of Iran. For completeness, I am not going to do anything about it, as I believe that I have already done what I could have done. Perhaps you wish to raise the issue with the people who might care. Kind regards, --BF 22:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Photo delete Iranian majles. They have the polciy of deleting pocitures so those with links to the main media will have a monopoly on provinding pictures. I know no Iranians who care. Unfortunately--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It is the saddest thing of all to know that there are people who call themselves Iranians (as should be evident, it is not obligatory to call oneself Iranian) but do not care about their Parliament. This applies to all people, not only to "Iranians", who do not value their democratic institutions. I suppose Sattar Khan, Baqer Khan, Mirza Jahangir Khan Sur-e Esrafil, Malek al-Motakallemin, Sayyed Jamal od-Din Esfahani and a host of other people who fought (and some died) for the Majles will be turning in their graves by hearing your statement. --BF 12:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What you say is true. A few intellectuals in Iran fight/fought for democracy. Iranian masses like elswehere are just passive consumers--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the case may be, if you know some of those "intellectuals", please let them know that they should upload an image of Majles to Wikipedia. --BF 13:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Template:User GEAL

A tag has been placed on Template:User GEAL requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it is substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<noinclude>{{transclusionless}}</noinclude>).

Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Template:User Iranlove

A tag has been placed on Template:User Iranlove requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it is substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<noinclude>{{transclusionless}}</noinclude>).

Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

BIG FAVOUR

Hey Babakexorramdin. I just wondered if the next time you go to Amsterdam could you visit the Allard Pierson Museum and take a picture of this[12] object for wikipedia. I will be very grateful. There may also be other Iran-related objects. I hope that people are allowed to take pictures of their exhibits. Anyway, it will be a big help and a contribution to Wikipedia.Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 19:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I will see if one is allowed to take pictures, but honsetly I don't think so.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for considering it. If you need anything that I can help you with just leave a message on my talk page.Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 21:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I will try again, perhaps another person there would let me do it.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Award

		The Original Barnstar
		Babak Jan, thanks for all your works in improving Iran related topics. Also I greatly admire your knowledge of the region and Wikipedia is definitely better with your presence. Nawruz Shomaa Khwajasta Baada. Khodaavand Bozorg Yar o Yaavaretaan. alidoostzadeh (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Re:Undiladze of Persia

Hello Babak. Sorry for a late reply. Encyclopaedia Iranica mentions both Undiladzes as beglarbeg. I'll also check their title in Georgian sources. Best, --Kober^Talk 10:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Please help on Mazandarani language

Parthava is reverting anything he does not agree with. I have a serious problem with describing Mazandarani Persian and Standard Persian as "mutually unintelligible." "Unintelligible," to an English speaker, connotes a complete disconnect and differentiation between the languages. For example, Arabic and Chinese are mutually unintelligible. English and Greek are mutually unintelligible.

However, Mazandarani Persian and Standard Persian, while considerably different, are not completely "unintelligible." For example, a person who only speaks Mazandarani Persian can still communicate with a person who only speaks Standard Persian using mutually shared vocabulary, as well as close terms like "berar" and "baradar" or "te dast dard nakane" and "dastet dard nakone." In contrast, in mutually unintelligible languages, such as Arabic and Chinese, the persons who spoke Arabic only and Chinese only could not communicate at all with each other using their own languages.

Your attention to this matter is greatly appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 21:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about Amir Taheri. Parthava is a bit rude but his take on Mazandarani language is closer to reality than that of 68.... With all due respect I also do not see anything positive in the envovlement by a Nigerian in such matters as regional lnaguges of Iran. Subjects which requires expertise to the native level. I also do not uderstand why he is so anti-Georgian when he himself (in chat) states that he is a Georgian Mazandarani. But: Mazandarani is not a persian dialect. Though stating that it is unintelligible with standard persian is also a big statement. Intelligibility is a word which has gradual and relative meaning. It should be said mazandarani is a Northwestern Iranian language while standard Persian is a South Western one. I think you should use this phrase as I said. About Gilaki instead of Mazandarani. I have heard this also from another native Mazandarani that they called their language Gilaki before, though it was different than the language of Gilan. I will ask another Mazandarani though. Finanlly I should add that I am not someone who comes to edit on demand. I have my own intellectual integrity. I am not the paid kind of pesudeo-scholar who writes anything for a certain agenda. I only write the truth. I am not much into propaganda. If I can help with editing and clarifying the truth I will, but I wont undo edits by people, only because they are rude or so...--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me clarify. I do not want to debate whether Mazandarani Persian is a dialect of Standard Persian or not. The definition of a "dialect" is not just an "accent." Dialects can be significantly different from each other. But they are still extremely similar dialects of a common language (Persian). But let's leave that aside. My main problem is using the totally incorrect and unacceptable word "unintelligible" to describe the linguistic relationship between Mazandarani Persian and Standard Persian. The langauges are extremely closely related and are in many ways mutually intelligible, which does not mean they are the same.

As for reverters..... There are two people reverting: 1 = Parthava, an Iranian who is not fluent in English, who is deleting sources and references which contradict his claim that Mazandarani Persian is "unintelligible" to a speaker of Standard Persian. 2 = Ankimai is a Nigerian who stalks my IP address all over Wikipedia and undo's my edits on all issues, no matter what they are. He/She does not know anything about Iran or Mazandaran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 17:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

For sources showing Mazandarani (and other regional variations of the Persian langauge) as dialects of Standard Persian, please see:

^ Le Coq, P., 1989, “Les dialects Caspiens et les dialects du nord- ouest de l, Iran,” in Schmitt, R. (ed), Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum, pp.296- 312, Wiesbadan. ^ Melgounof, G., 1868, “ Essai sur les dialects du Masenderan et du Guilanla pronunciation locale”, Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenlandischen Geselaschaft, vol.xxII, pp. 195-224. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 17:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani is not a persian dialect, it is an Iranian language belonging to other sub-branch of Western Iranian languages. There is no such a thing as Mazandarani Persian. Nor do I see the sources saying this. May I ask you whether you live in the USA? because that might clarify the confusion here. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that 68.5.250.146 (talk) has never seen these sources, let alone read them. He simply copied and pasted them (because they contain the word 'dialects', probably) from this list - without realizing that he copied and pasted the typos, too ("Wiesbadan", "Geselaschaft"). This guy is a troll (have a look at the edit history of Amir Taheri, please). Regards, Ankimai (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

---

Ankimai is the troll. S/he is a defender of Amir Taheri, a neo-con backed anti-Iranian propaganda writer who says Iran should be bombed. She's not even an Iranian, so I have no idea how she could possibly make credible judgments on Amir Taheri, let alone the intricacies of classifying the language of Mazandaran!

Well I do not know him/her, but I see that she/he has always reverting your edits, no matter what. my advice: do not do the same, do it only when you have a point to make.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

to Soundofmusicals

If a fictional name doesnt matter why you deleted the Persian name? Why in heaven's name? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Sinbad's name is not the main point of the article - and for that reason should not be the subject of contentious POV edits. Edits should also, incidentally, be in clear standard English. The current form is better, with both Arabic and Persian names. This doesn't try to make chauvinistic points that have no part in an encyclopedia. The thesis that all Middle Eastern culture is basically Persian, which some "pro-Irani" editors seem to espouse may well be a legitimate point of view (POV) but it is certainly not a neutral one (NPOV) - nor does it belong in an encyclopedia. Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Why did you delete the Persian name if you are not a chauvinist yourself?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I read what you had to say carefully, and tried to respond sensibly - if you are not prepared to offer the same courtesy there is no point in any one discussing anything with you. The edit you object to removed chauvinistic matter - it does not follow that the editor is chauvinistic (look it up in a dictionary). Incidentally - read the article as it now stands - what do you still object to? Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

dear soundofmusicals I try to be nice to you, but it seems that whatever obne says you are here to oppose anything Iranian. 1- You neglect Cambridge history and even manipulate the information extracted from it 2- you deleted the Persian name. I asked you why, and all what you are doing is namescalling. Alas....--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

If you're being nice here I'd hate to be on your bad side! I repeat - have a look at the article now!!Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

see below.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

to Soundofmusicals about his/her personal attacks.

Dear friend if you were fingerpointing at me for being chauvinist, I can say the same about you. Your insistence in reverting anything Iranian is truely disturbing. You even manipulate the information from the re;liable scholarly sources. Why are you doing this? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

You state that I "insist on reverting anything Iranian" which is palpable nonsense, and that I manipulate scholarly information, which is plain stupid. This is a totally uncalled for personal attack and I think I should have an immediate unreserved apology.Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

what you are doing is a big SIN in the Academic world. You are not the one who manipulates the information from cited sources. That is not done. And I do not see why you always attack and insult people whith whom you do not agree?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Moved this to more appropriate place

OK perhaps we have been talking at cross purposes a bit.

I think the edit of mine you actually objected to was my edit to "Sinbad is a Persian word hinting at the stories Iranian origin."

Now I did not intenionally "manipulate anything here - and I certainly did not "delete the Persian name".

Its just that this does not actually make sense in English. Not criticising you for not having perfect Engish - it is certain much better than my (non-existant) Farsi. But this IS an English language encyclopedia.

One posible edit would be : Sinbad is a Persian word hinting at the story's Iranian origin.

The snag is that it is NOT a story, but a story cycle - and as the rest of the article has been discussing up to this point the different stories have origins from a good number of sources.

Another edit might be Sinbad is a Persian word hinting at the stories' Iranian origin.

But again - the article as a whole says the different stories originate from all over - the Persian origin of some of them is already discussed.

My edit was Sinbad is a Persian word hinting at an Iranian origin for at least some of the stories.

This is good English, makes sense, and is consistent with the rest of the article. It is certainly NOT a chauvinistic attack on Iranians or any of the other things you have been saying!

Ok let me be clear. Those statements in the text were not mine. You are welcome to edit their grammar as long as you think it is appropriate. The problem was that you delteed the name Sindbad in persian and manipulated the citation from the Camridge history. And then it is me who should be blamed? Thats not fair. PS: It is Persian and not Farsi, the dicussion is a way too long for here.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sinbad_the_Sailor&diff=198571072&oldid=198228053

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sinbad_the_Sailor&diff=198768570&oldid=198594549

--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I naturally defer to your calling your own language "Persian" rather than "Farsi" - you obviously know which is preferable far better than I. I have seen both - and suspected they were probably different transliterations of the same (Persian) word, and that "Farsi" may have been a more accurate transliteration. But as you say - not something worth quibbling about - especially since I'm sure you know much more about it than me!

I was not (intentionally anyway) "blaming" or attacking you or any of your fellow Iranian editors, although I would point out that you need (at times, anyway) to temper your (very proper and commendable) love of your country, and your desire to see its (undeniably glorious) cultural heritage receive its fair due in Wikipedia with a modicum of good manners, restraint, and scholarliness. I have no idea on what grounds you base statements like I do not see why you always attack and insult people whith whom you do not agree? - have a look at my record on Wiki if you must - how many times have I lost my cool and how many times NOT. Then have a look at your own (including the message below, left for you by someone else.)

Anyway - so far as this most unedifying exchange is down to me I apologise, and in so far as it is down to you I forgive you. Can't say fairer than that. May we work together in a rational, friendly way on any other article where our interests coincide (especially if we happen to disagree - out of the clash differing opinions comes the spark of truth). If not, I hope it won't be because of me.

By the way - read the introduction to the article as it now stands!! Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

OOPS!! Someone else has deleted the Persian AND the Arabic names - and totally reverted my attempted compromise! Oh well, it happens!! Just so long as you have a look at the history and don't blame me!!! Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, LOL now you see how much opposition the Iranians have to endure, and you see that the assertivieness of Iranians is nothing compared to the amount of hatred to which they are exposed to--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily hatred as such, Kamran - try not to dwell on the unpleasant things of life and you may be less liable to see hateful motives behind everything everyone does or says. People who fail to agree with everything you say, and who have their own loyalties and predispositions that differ from yours - do not ALWAYS do so solely because they hate Iran, really! When they DO, then of course you can't argue with them and they are best left well alone. Life is nicer if you attribute good motives at least for other's actions, even if you disagree with them - right up to the stage where they make this impossible. This is also Wiki policy (assume good faith), and quite rightly. Anyway the intro got reverted back again and seems to be closer to what you would like now. Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The years I lived outside Iran I have only encountered hostility because of My Iranianness. Not personally to me, but more contextual. It was not me who was bad, but in fact I was good enough, considering that I am from a Bad culture, background, country etc... That was the reality of the day. First it was Iran-Iraq war. Saddam was the hero for the west and the western TVs did not really cared about his usage of chemical bombs. OK. Then when he invaded Kuwait, it was for the rich Kuwaits that the West condemned Saddam. It was as if they always have condemned Saddam. But that was not the only thing. The movies not without my daugter, The many insultive documentaries, nowadays the movie 300. Funnily those who are loud that Iranians are antisemitic (sic!) do not want to undestand that Cyrus and Xerxes (who is ridiculed in the 300) were champions of rescuing and protecting the Jewissh citizens. Ok. And now Iranian people should suffer from economic embargo. Why? Because Ahmadinejad GOT elected, but what aboyut the US people who FREELY and democratically ACTIVELY elected Bush? Being Iranian means that you are not able to travel, you are not able to visit your family easily in the west. means that everyone is allowed to insult you. That you should stand up against the pseudo-scholars who are trying to change your history, whowrite false history, and who are funded in the west. But it is not welcome, nor easily possible, if you as an Iranian want to attend a conference or publish something. Anti-Iranianism is a painful fact and the Iranians should learn from their history that it was due to their tolerance of enemies that the enemis permitted themselves anything. I really think that Iranians should be more assertive.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sad to see you so bitter - but (forgive me, I am old enough to be your grandfather) you will be happier, and able to achieve more in your life, if you learn to imitate people whose actions you admire, instead of becoming so obsessed with the actions of those who do things that cause you pain, that you end up copying them. I know there is (alas) a great deal of truth in some of what you say (personally, I like Mr. Bush about as much as you do!) - but the answer to rudeness is not to be just as rude back, but to return courtesy for discourtesy, thoughtfullness for lack of consideration, and be patient about persuading others of the truth (and careful and open-minded about what that truth actually is - that is, be ready to admit you were wrong when you are). So-called "assertiveness" can easily end up just confirming the "baddies" that they were right - and (much worse) persuading people who were quite ready to listen to you that they would be wasting their time. As you well know, nobody likes someone they see as a rude little know-it-all with a spiteful chip on his shoulder - whatever his nationality. If you don't want people to think badly of you the first step is to look at yourself - not at what you think about them! Blow them! If they are do dreadful, why dignify them by having an opinion about them at all? You can't change them, but you can, hopefully, change yourself, who knows, perhaps even into someone who will make others love Iran because even they can see a country that could produce such a wonderful young man must be a paradise. Soundofmusicals (talk) 11:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear sound of musical. Thank you for ypur asdvise. I do not have personal problems with the "baddies. It is a collective problem. They are trying to falsify and violate the truth about the Iranian civilization. They want to instigate ethnic hatred and dismember Iran as they did to former Yugoslavia, USSR , and in proceeding Iraq. See bernard Lewis plan and the maps nowadays the American neo-cons are making. I can distinguish collective actions from personal grudge. I mean I do not hate anyone necessarily, but I think that Iranians should defend their history and culture as a collective task. Say it simply: I can have a chat or drink with one of the b"baddies"without getting into punch, but at the same time I will advocate among the Iranians to be watchful against anti-Iranianism. It is an exzistential problem, and much of the wars and conflicts around the world began when one dealt too late with normalizing- defeating the existeantial threats. When a people is posed to existential threat, it can be easily mobilized along irrational grounds. In fact by being on time, we will prevent much bloodshed later.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Dorood

Salam Babak Jan, Happy Nawruz. I think we can expand Persian-Georgia relations and even make it to a featured article. The article is here: [[13]]. Definitely can use your expertise. Also try to stay cool in Wikipedia ;) and I understand your POV, but sometimes in Wikipedia you have to cool it. I usually take it out by lifting weights or something. Take care --alidoostzadeh (talk) 15:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I try my best but it takes too much time and energy to counter those people who have made a fun at chasing me and reverting everything I do. It is sad that some of these people are making WP policies too. Not a good example to follow. Also we should contact Kober. He knows a lot about Iran- Georgia relations--Babakexorramdin (talk) 05:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani is a dialect of Persian. No question about it.

Babak I think the problem is your misunderstanding of the definition of the word "dialect." I noticed in most Persian-English dictionaries they translate "dialect" as "lahje" which is an incorrect translation of the word, and perhaps the reason for your misunderstanding. "Lahje" means "accent" in English and Mazandarani Persian is not a "lahje" or "accent" of Standard Persian.

However, Mazandarani Persian is a "dialect" of Standard Persian. Please see the definition of the English word "dialect" from dictionary.com below. I am sure if you are neutral and objective you will agree that the relationship between Mazandarani and Persian is best described as a "dialect" after you read the below definition.

di·a·lect –noun

1. Linguistics. a variety of a language that is distinguished from other varieties of the same language by features of phonology, grammar, and vocabulary, and by its use by a group of speakers who are set off from others geographically or socially.

2. a provincial, rural, or socially distinct variety of a language that differs from the standard language, esp. when considered as substandard.

3. a special variety of a language: The literary dialect is usually taken as the standard language.

4. a language considered as one of a group that have a common ancestor: Persian, Latin, and English are Indo-European dialects. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dialect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 19:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not a dialect of Persian. It belongs to another branch of Iranian languages.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

---

Please do not be hostile. Do you even know what "dialect" means in English? Please do not create conflicts unnecessarily. I am assuming your English is less than fluent. Hence, your misunderstanding of the definition of the world "dialect" in English.

Why don't you look up the definition of "dialect" for yourself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 01:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If I may but in here - language as perceived by its speakers often has a very strong emotional (I hestitate to say chauvinistic??) content. For example. objectively Scots is a dialect of English - in fact Scots and English speakers have in practice very little difficulty understanding each other - but tell that to a Scotsman and he will adamantly assure you that Scots is an entirely unrelated language! None the less, in an encyclopedia we should really stick to the strictly objective, where possible. Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not see that I have been hostile. I only said Mazandarani is a separate language. Dialects and languages have a blurred borderline, but it only applies when they are very close languages/dialects. This is why Luri and Standard persian could be counted as the same language. But mazandarani belongs to another branch of Iranian languages. Persian is a Southwestern Iranian language, while Mazandarani is a Northwestern Iranian language. One cannot be a dialect of the other. I presume that 68..... either lacks linguistic knowledge, or he is an Iranian who lives in an English-sepaking country (especially USA) because in such countries, the words Persian and Iranian are often confused. Mazandarani is an Iranian language, and Persian is an Iranain language, but this does not mean that Persian and Iranian are linguistically the same concepts.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

---

Actually, sir, I think this is another case of you not being aware of the meaning of words in English. For example, you believe there is a difference between "Iranian" and "Persian" in the English language. However, this is not so. The term "Persian" and "Persia" have been used interchangeably with "Iranian" and "Iran" to describe the Persian/Iranian people/culture in Western languages for centuries. For example, a Persian cat or a Persian rug is the same as an Iranian cat and an Iranian rug. Recently, Western propaganda intended to create ethnic division and misunderstanding in Iran has attempted to create an "ethnic group" in Iran called "Persians" and define them as simply one group of many "Iranians." In reality, there is no discernable ethnic group called "Persians." "Persians" means "Irani" or all Iranians.

You are the type who creates ethnic hatred. Yet another Iranian American who thinks to know everything. If you have no intention to read a linguistic book, at least read articles in this wikipedia, to know something about the classification of Iranian languages. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

U.S. support for... ‎

Hello. I'll be needing to update several links because the article U.S. support for Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war‎ was first renamed to U.S. support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war‎ then U.S. support for Iraq and Iran during the Iran-Iraq war‎. The front two now serve as redirects. If you have any objection with the new title, please discuss it on the talk page here. Ta. smb (talk) 14:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

please do not change the titles. What you do is against all facts and there were a lot of discussions. It is not done to change things for personal taste or other goals.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The main page has already been renamed to U.S. support for Iraq and Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. I'm merely updating the links that point to it smb (talk) 16:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh I see, and I can imagine who did that. I renamed the title again.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place here. Please join. smb (talk) 22:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Baba jaan Engilisi dorost balad nisti takhsir-e-mah nist. Boro Wikipedia ye Farsi edit bokon agar nemikhai manaye loghathaye Engilisi az mardoome Engilisi-zaban ghabool bokoni. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 23:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

No comments. If you go on with this rude behavior you will be reported to the admins and you will be banned.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

All I said is that you do not speak fluent English and hence that is the reason for your misunderstanding of the definition of English words. I hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 00:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC) All is said that I am not going to communicate with you again unless you change your behavior. On Mazandrani talkpage I wrote a classification of Iranian languages, but you could read that on the article Iranian languages too. It is very arrogant what you say and that you try to push your POV disregarding all linguistic material, only because some Persians in the USA, without proper liguistic knowledge, say so. Adieu--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sir - I have provided several references for my statements. This is not simply POV. Please take the time to read the many references I have provided in the article before you make accusations against your fellow Persian people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 16:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

No reliable sources call Iranian languages as persian languages. Persian is one Iranian language, and there are more. I do not care if a clown in Los Angeles's Cabaret tehran calls Iranian_ Persian. In Linguistic fi8elds, we speak about the Iranian languages.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Irano-American cooperation

This is also in my user talk page, but I would suggest that a serious proposal could be useful on the main Iran-Iraq War talk page, where we can have continuity and other people commenting. If you approve, you can move it there, or give me permission to do so; it would be discourteous for me to do that without your agreement.

I'm not sure what you mean by "image of USA", in that I was talking about the war period, not 1997-2001. In that period, I have not yet seen evidence of large-scale military cooperation between the US and Iraq, although I agree there was intelligence sharing by a relatively small DIA detachment.

Can we agree that the "Tanker War" was effectively a war between Iran and the US, and the motivations on both sides were for things about which each side was angry, as opposed to (at least on the US side), a principal goal of supporting Iraq? There are things the US did that, I am sure, ranged from infuriating to, in the case of the Airbus, criminal. At the same time, there were things that Iran did that caused a great deal of anger and high-level government reaction in the U.S. Perhaps the war could have been prevented or stopped early with a mutually trusted mediator, but that didn't happen.

Please believe me when I say that I have a long list of reasons, policy and personal, why I would like the relationship between the US and Iran to improve. I have great respect for Persian history and tradition. Realistically, you are a major power in the region and should be treated as such. A couple of years ago, I consulted on a study of radio broadcasting to Afghanistan, and was impressed with the positive, nonconfrontational material that Radio Iran transmitted. If I may make a personal observation, your rice dishes are the best in the world, which I've tried to reproduce with cookbooks that aren't detailed enough.

I am interested in serious discussion of steps to improve the relationship, and, indeed, documenting cases where overtures by either side were rejected. These range, certainly, from increased trade opportunities to earthquake relief to antidrug activity. It is not my intent to deal with cosmetic-only aspects of better relations, although I recognize that the table tennis team from the PRC had a surprisingly significant effect on improving dialogue, leading to high-level and serious government cooperation.

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 14:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello I was talking about another article. (detente) not that about the Iran-Iraq war (I said there that both parties had their persepctives on the Tanker war, and these persepctives could be mentioned in the article). That period of history is now gone. After the war with Saddam, Irano-American relations improved, with its peak in the 1997-2001 period. however when Bush assumed power the relations worsened again. You are talking as if I am the represenatative of the Iranian government. In fact I am only a member of Iranian diaspora. Actually the ordinary Iranians, and especially the diapora is exposed to the Iranophobia, and not the Iranian government. Movies like 300 or not without my daughter target the Iranian pcitizens, and espcially those in diapora are exposed to discrimnation and hrassment. During the period I call detente the relations between the two nations, at least the Iranian side was cordial. American athletes came regularly to Iran. American wrestelers were applauded etc... However the Bush administration again fell in a state of Iranophobia, that angered Iranians. For example arresting Iranian scholars who were attending a conference and beating them up was unexcusable. Also instigating ethnic and religious hatred in Iran by some American neoconservative groups , adds to the controversy. As M. Albright recently said in her interview with the VOA Persian, Iran and the USA are large countries with similar global interests and this only adds to the prospects of better relations. But this only can happen based on mutual respects. However I am open to any suggestions how to improve this relationship. I would suggest let's begin with those "cosmetic" articles in wikipedia. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

About the article (and moving the left margin back)

I certainly believe an article that documents, objectively, recent steps -- and failures -- in improving relations. Believe me, I, as well as many Americans, are counting the days until Bush and Cheney leave office. The hate groups, on either side, need to be identified. I understand the difference between the Iranian Supreme Leader and President, but many Americans do not. Some years ago, Khruschev made a comment that apparently was translated poorly as "We will bury you", which sounds threatening to the average American. My Russian linguist friends have told me he was using an idiom that better translated as "Our society is better will live longer than yours, and we will watch you being buried". Not speaking Farsi, I can't judge some statements made by Ahmadinejad, but some US specialists say that a number of his statements were translated poorly, and were used to spread fear about an essentially nonexistent Iranian nuclear threat.

My only concern is that any article that only covers cosmetics at first should mention that explicitly in the introduction, and indicate the article will cover more substantive relations as they occur.

You mentioned 300 as directed at citizens. I haven't seen the movie, but am familiar with the Battle of Thermopylae. Are you suggesting that this was consciously anti-Iranian propaganda? I'm honestly interested to know if something about events so long ago are seriously considered derogatory. Your culture is older than ours, but, for example, a movie about the actions of one side of the American Civil War is not considered to be an attack on the North or South (as relevant). Is this not the case in Iraq?? I would also be very interested in knowing the Iranian perspective on assistance after earthquakes. My impression was that it was rejected, but the situation may have been more complex than reported here. It's been my observation that help in disasters tends to be remembered positively. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 14:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not aware that Ahmadinejad has ever done deregatory comments about the american nation. Some stupids in Iran may do, but their numbers are far less than those Americans with weired ideas about Iranians. About the 300 see the review written by Kaveh farrokh, available at wikipedia. If you serach youtube you can find commentaries also made by greeks, who hate this movie. Of course the (objective or false) history of that recent past doe not matter much, but the Iranians are misreprsented. I saw even in youtube one commentary which showed that the face of persian musican was made like goat, a symbol for devil, baalzebub, Lucifer! Also the persian soldiers were made like Barbarians. It was funny that the makers rather used black people than Iranians. Why? Well I guess it says something about the hidden racism in the movie director. If you aske. Yes the movie was a conscious attempt to make Iranians angry. About the article: begin with a suggestion, you can use an intro from the main Iran-USA relations, then we write the article about detente and add it to the main article--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as Ahmadinejad's statements, I don't know of direct threats to the US, but he has been perceived, by some, to have made threats against Israel, which is significant in American politics. It's not as significant as always believed outside by the US, but there is a strong lobby. His statement that has variously been translated "Israel will vanish" and "Israel will vanish from the pages of history", as I understand, was much like Khruschev's idiom -- he didn't imply a direct threat, but more that Israel will eventually change through the political process. The point is that a number of people in the Administration, and outside supporters of this, have turned the translation into a direct threat to Israel that may justify an attack on Iranian nuclear facilities. I have written an analysis on a blog why I think there is no practical threat, but it is a reality in American political discussion.

My serious question is who, beside the director, was trying to make Iranians angry, as a conscious part of of filming it, and why? Has this movie become a serious issue in Iran, or just an annoyance? In the US, it's rare, but there have been demonstrations in front of a few theaters. I can think of historical movies that triggered a lot of emotion, good and bad, from Birth of a Nation to Gone with the Wind to Saving Private Ryan to Schindler's List to Full Metal Jacket, but nothing that triggered, for example, reactions like the reaction to cartoons of the Prophet (PBUH). Are you talking of the latter level of response?

I'm not sure "detente" is the right word, unless there is clear intergovernmental cooperations. Perhaps the headings might be "successful and unsuccessful private attempts to improve relations", and "succesful and unsucessful official attempts..." As long as there are politicians, or their supporters, suggesting attacking Iranian nuclear facilities is a good idea, I don't see the relationship as detente. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

well the movie was made in Hollywood, it is not difficult to know who did the funding. As I know there are many groups who are lobbying and funding anti-Iranianism. It is a long story. I think detente is a good word, because apparently the government (without direct diplomatic relaions) were facilitating these things. In an interview Khatami spoke of his intentions in expanding sportive, scientific, tourist etc... relationship with the USA.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to anser: First there were large anger among the Iranian diaspora, and then it went also in Iran. the government joint the people and there were demonstrations as I know.(Im not sure) but it was a large issue and occupied the broadcasting and press inside Iran and among diapoa. there was also a petition against the movie.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that a fair number of Hollywood studios are owned either by large US conglomerates or Japanese firms, no, it's not easy to guess who made the movie. It's also hard for many other cultures to understand that there is very little control over things called "art". Now, I personally do not believe the government should be in the business of subsidizing the arts, but that isn't meant as a means of censorship. Some years ago, there was anger that a particular artist, partially supported by National Endowment for the Arts funding, created something he called "Piss Christ", a crucifix in a jar of his urine. Yes, there were protests, but, in a country that is largely Christian, no particular violence. Routinely, there are movies, books, etc., that are offensive to one group or another, and I believe it a strength of our society that, overall, there is plenty of opportunity to protest peacefully, and, when it is a commercial effort such as a movie, send an economic message. The government, however, cannot and should not ban a movie because it offends some group; that attitude reflects a widely held national appreciation for freedom of expression -- and freedom to protest against other peoples' expression. The movie may have been a large issue in Iran, but both cultures, to live together, have to recognize that they do have different values that fit their societies, and they are not going to make fundamental changes in each other.

With all due respect, there are Americans that know and respect your culture going back to antiquity. There are Americans that are aware of things such as the overthrow of Mossadegh, consider it a terrible idea, but also understand the US context that led to it happening. One of the reasons Bush is so unpopular is that he is regularly doing things that other Administrations considered, to different extents, unwise. At the same time, Iranians need to understand that there are things that caused very deep popular resentment to Iran. Whether Iranians felt justified or not by the US admitting the Shah for medical treatment, rather than returning him for trial, the Embassy seizure remains a source of anger. I recognize that all of Iran didn't decide to do that, nor did the average Iranian take part in mining the Gulf. Nevertheless, I hear a certain sensitivity on some Iranians' part that the fault for bad relations is totally on the US side, and that doesn't contribute to solving the problems.

Iran, I believe, has done some positive things for Afghanistan, which are subtle enough that they were not recognized by nonspecialists. That's unfortunate. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 01:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC) [I happen to like doogh as well. Maybe I should use the infobox].

Dear Berkowitz, no one claims that there are no people in Iran who are guilty. there are certainly people who work hard in order to isolate Iran from within. Traditionally Iranian anger was directed towards the Arabs and the British who supported them. the USA however joint the list after the coup against Mosadegh. But as I said things happened in the history and can be settled peacefully. These are not necessarily barriers towards improving relations. there are a lot of irresponsible polticians in Iran but Bush is ceratainly not better if not worse. There are certain sensetivities in each country, which shouldbe dealt carefully in he international relationships. For example calling the Persian Gulf as Arabian Gulf or simply as Gulf will anger Iranians. Messing with the Iranian history does the same. This sensetivity is present in all historic nations, e.g. Egypt, Greece, China etc...

Another thing is insulting. Making 300 has nothing to do with different values within the American and the Iranian societies and cultures. Honestly I think that Iranian and American values and cultures have much more in common than Iranian with the North European or Asian ones. But I do not think that insulting Iranians in these movies is part of the American culture. On the other hand racist or anti-semitic movies are taken measures at in the USA. The anti-Iranianism however, comparable in nature and extent with the European Anti-semitism in and before the WOII, is left free, in fact many Media and press are fueling it. For example Khatami (Im not a big fan of him either) said that he doesnt want to hear death to America or burning the American flags, in Iran also were large commomemorations and sympathy with the victims of 9/11 (even Ahmadinejad wanted to visit the site but was prevented by allegedly zionist lobby groups in the USA) , such gestures are not made by American politicians and certainly not by Bush.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This dialogue may be interesting and worthwhile, as I think arguments over articles may be less tense if editors know one another a little better, both as individuals, citizens of a country, and members of a culture. Some acts by Americans, which seem insensitive, may be more of ignorance of a culture and a national history. Now, I was in high school over forty years ago, but I think my school was typical in that "world history" was a single course, taught to 14-year olds. There was brief mention of ancient cultures, but, even in my honors section, no in-depth study unless you picked the topic as your research paper of the year. Mine happened to be on the first Russian Revolution under Kerensky. In the course, there was very little discussion of Persia, although a bit on the Greek city-states' side of the battles of Marathon, Thermopylae, and Salamis.

My point here is that unless they have done further study, it's unlikely that an average American knows much about ancient cultures. They probably know the most about Greek and Roman civilizations, and about other countries of the time simply as opponents. "Messing with the history" happens for two reasons, the prime one being lack of knowledge. In some cases, it's that something isn't regarded as serious disrespect, but as humor. Mel Brooks is considered a comic genius, because movies like Blazing Saddles equally insult almost every culture in America of the time, yet the climax involves the affected people setting aside their hatreds and working together.

In modern history, average Americans will know there was an Iran-Iraq War, the seizure of the Embassy, and little more than there were people named Reza Pahlavi and Ruhollah Khomeini. Like it or not, the way to get more work together is for both sides to reduce the heat of disagreements. Now, I have technical knowledge of the antiaircraft system of U.S. Navy warships. In reading the declassified part of the report of the Airbus incident investigation by Admiral Fogarty, which, by all accounts, is very fair but has never been completely released, I kept muttering with disbelief, they did what? There were numerous mistakes in interpreting and using information system, principally by the captain but by others as well.

Bluntly, in the popular American culture, when someone thinks of Iran, they immediately think of hostages. Unfortunately, that led to things such as not hearing the very real sympathy on 9/11.

The political role of Zionism in U.S. politics is extremely complex. There's no question that the Zionist lobby is a powerful one and has an effect on politics, and that is a disproportionate one. On the other hand, that influence is principally political. There is no vast Jewish conspiracy running the United States, and there is no control, from any lobby or ethnic group, that decides what movies are acceptable. A German officer once said "War is chaos. The reasons the Americans are so good at it is that they practice chaos every day." Anyone trying to understand America has to realize that relatively few Americans have or use a deep historical culture. They react to recent events and look to the future. Recently, there has been a political party, partially rejected in the 2006 Congressional elections, that has had an aggressive stance toward Southwest Asia and the Middle East. I suspect that the rejection of some of their policies will open up an opportunity for rapprochement with Iran, but both sides are going to have to disregard the extreme statements of their extremists, and focus on the core issue.

From my perspective, the focus on core issues is the main reason for difficulty in the Iran-Iraq articles. As you know, I started inserting articles on support by many countries for Iraq and Iran, and, as you suggested, gave brief introductions to the link. Last night, I reverted an edit to the introduction to the link to U.S. support for Iraq, because that editor wanted to insert more charges against the U.S. I believe the place for that is in the sub-article, where they can be discussed at length. There is an unfortunate tendency for some editors to insert anti-American comments whenever there is a reference to the U.S., and the actual subject of the Iran-Iraq War is being lost over arguments over the U.S.

It may be hard, but all sides need to turn down the rhetoric, and also not focus on trivia. The infobox is a major example of conflict that is not helping explain what actually happened among the nations involved. As I commented on the talk page, the actual numbers of tanks and aircraft is far less important than the way the sides used them.

I hope we can work together constructively, not making either side good or evil -- Bush's "Axis of Evil" is something that goes against every rule of effetive international relations -- and focusing on understanding what happened and why. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 14:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

just see who give the Americans a bad name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.89.104.154 , one of the many. He evenly calls Kazakhstan an Arabic country. btw talking about the film industry Borat is mentioned. Can you imagine what would have happened if the Borat case was the other way around? yes.... --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

If Iranians can't get over a movie, regarded as in poor taste by many Americans, as Borat, how do you think chants of "Death to America" go over, or are remembered?

When you suggest there is a "lobby" in Hollywood that, presumably, America must suppress before there can be good relations with Iran, it does sound as if you are suggesting us vs. them, because there is no way, in the US system, to suppress movies because they offend someone. Mel Gibson's radical Christian, and thoroughly anti-Semitic, movie deeply offended many Americans, but suppression wasn't a possibility. It was anti-Semitic, and it wasn't suppressed, nor should it have been.

You are incorrect that anti-Semitism or racial discrimination are prohibited in all ways. They certainly are not prohibited in terms of the arts or literature. They are prohibited in terms of employment, housing, and similar financial transactions.

Many Americans, including myself, strongly oppose the level of support Israel gets from the U.S., but I'm hearing, perhaps incorrectly, an argument that the Jews really run the US, and are responsible for Iranophobia. If so, you are dealing in stereotypes, and certainly not in the very real political and popular opinion about Iran in the US. I am not trying to get into a game of mutual blame, but you haven't mentioned the embassy seizure, which drives a great many Americans into utter fury with Iran, just as the Airbus shootdown, I'm sure, drives many Iranians into fury.

Are you seriously suggesting that the US has to conform to Iranian ideas of appropriateness in movies before relations can improve? In like manner, it will be a long wait -- as in probably never -- that the American people believe that they were principally responsible for the Iran-Iraq War, as opposed to Saddam. Are you willing to suspend these mutual accusations about who was mean to whom, and deal with the actual dynamics of two wars, the Iran-Iraq and US-Iraq? The theory that the US conducted the Tanker War purely to support Iraq is not going to go very far with American opinion or politics. If both sides recognize that some American politicians, at a certain time, tapped into some very deep anger at Iran, just as some Iranian leaders tapped into some very deep anger at the US, it won't change what happened, but it can make the discussion much more historically accurate.

No cooperation is going to occur as long as the discussion is on American or Iranian attitudes,as opposed to actions. Movies did not cause the Airbus passengers to be killed or the Embassy to be held hostage.

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 11:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear berkowitz, again you are talking as if I am a politician. I just said that there are lobbies, which endanger Irano-American relationship. There is no counter movement in America. I did not say that all American Jews are Iranophobic, but there is certainly a Zionist lobby of them which works towards deteriration of Irano-American relationship. I am aware of how Americans think about Iran. I travel a lot to the USA. I should say that authorities are disrespectful at the airports, wventhough I have a European citizenship. NBut many people are quite nice, especially in the interirr states some people are exteremely ignorant. But not much so in new York, California, Chicago and Florida. About the embassy issue I should say: That happened long ago and had its own rationale. Many were angry at what USA had done before in Iran and the country was in Chaos and did not posses an stable government or police forces. How sad it was, it resulted to no deaths.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Gamarjoba

gamarjoba dear brother. I'm Christian Georgian and for me all Muslim Georgians are equals, brothers and same blood runs through mine and their veins. Yes i deny that Christian Georgians treat Muslim Georgians as unequals. I lived in Georgia for many years and never witnessed that somebody in Georgia was treated unequal because of religion, on contrary. You and I are the same, no difference. And religions has nothing to do with it. Please don't belive in that, nobody in Georgia (well, nobody normal) treats our Muslim brothers as unequal. Thas why I didnt like that comment. It was not true. All the best brother! Khodakhofis! Iberieli (talk) 00:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I have been to Georgia. Bulk of people were very nice, but I saw many who said a true Georgian is a Christian one. Though I should say that even they were nice. I also have to add that interethnic and inter-religious tolerance was much higher in Georgia compared to Azerbaijan and Armenia.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem brother, we have nothing to argue about. We stand on the same side :) You have to understand that Georgia has gone through very difficult times and some people might have grudges against anyone (no metter what religion or ethnicity). You are Georgian, if you feel Georgia, religions has nothing to do with it. gagimarjos, say hi to our brothers in Iran! Iberieli (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm an Iranian türk!

جناب آقای بابک خرمدین! از صفحه اولتون معلومه که شما هیچ ارتباطی به آذربایجان و آذربایجانی ها ندارین و از ویرایشتون هم معلومه که اطلاعات زیادی هم درباره اش ندارین.

اگه یه نگاه به صفحه اول من بندازین، میبینین که من تو ویکیهای آذربایجانی و ترکی و فارسی عضوم. فکر کنم همین ها برای اثبات ایرانی و آذربایجانی بودنم کافی باشه. چون الان با این وضع رقتباری که برای ترکی به وجود آوردن، هیچ فارسی زبانی به خودش زحمت یادگیری این زبان رو نمیده و ضمناً تو جمهوری آذربایجان و ترکیه هم فکر نکنم افراد زیادی باشن که فارسی بلد باشن.

در ثانی همونطور که گفتم تو ایران ترک ها و یا احتمالاً به قول شما آذری ها هیچوقت به زبان خودشون آذری نمیگن. شاید اگه با یکیشون به فارسی حرف بزنین به شما بگه که زبانش «آذری» هست (که البته همون رو هم از شما فارسی زبانها یاد گرفته) اما اگه به ترکی حرف بزنین، هیچ وقت حرفی از کلمه «آذری» نخواهید شنید.

در ثالت میدونیم که مرند به ترکی آذربایجانی میشه Mərənd اما وقتی که میخوایم این کلمه رو بدون استفاده از کاراکترهای ترکی بنویسیم، به تقلید از ترکی استانبولی میشه Merend

Merendoglu (talk) 08:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

hala ke be farsi minevisi be baraeri javabeto vadam. Avvalan chera vanevisi Merend? mage to vakil o vasiye Torkiyeiha bidi? Dovomman to harfe xodeto naghz vakoni, az yektarafi vagui ke man Azarbaijani nabidam, az tarafe dige vagui ke hicki zahmate yadgirie Torkiye Azerio be xodesh navade. Dovommasn shoma eshtep vakonid: dar dowro bare man va dar famil, mamulan farsha o gheyre Azariha vugulandzj ke shoma Torki harf vazanid? In xode Azariha hastand ke bishtare vaghta vuygulandzj zabane ma Azari bid. Miporsand amma mage in Torki nabid, baziha migand na torki ine o une va ba in fargh fokule, baziha vuyguladzj ke chera torki bid amma in torkie azari bid. Be har surat name Azari baraye in zaban bayed hefz vashe chonke dar iran ingune vuygulandzj.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

شما اگه یک بار به فرومهای ترکی آذربایجانی سر بزنین، میبینین که ə رو اگه نخوان با کیبوردشون بنویسن، به جاش e مینویسن. همانطور که اسم همون مقاله هم Azerbaijani هست و نه Azarbaijani در ثانی اسم کاربری یه چیز شخصیه و فرد میتونه با هر اسمی و با هر املایی که دوست داشته باشه اونو بنویسه. شما اگه دقت کنین میبینین که اسم کاربری من تو ویکی فارسی، «موسا» هست. آیا الان باید برای این املا جوابگو باشم؟

فکر کنم تا الان براتون محرز شده باشه که من ایرانی آذربایجانی هستم. من خودم به شخصه هیچوقت ندیدم که یکی از ماها تو ترکی بگه ما آذری هستیم یا آذری سخن میگوییم.

در ضمن، من نام آذری رو از مقاله حذف نکردم. اگه به سطر اول مقاله دقت داشته باشین، میبینین که نوشته این زبان، «آذری» و ... هم نامیده میشه و من به اون دست نزدم.

الان که اسم Türki رو هم اضافه کردین، من کاری ندارم و به قول خودتون همه راضی هستن. و البته از شما به خاطر این که وقت گذاشتین و زبان ترکی آذربایجانی رو یاد گرفتین، تشکر میکنم.

Merendoglu (talk) 13:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Man miunam ke a (kutah) ro dar jomhuriye Azerbaijan ba e ye baraks minevisand. Anhai ke dar Forumhaye Azari e minvesiand pantorkani hastand ke mixwahand az Torkiye taghlid konand. Kollan dele xoshi az inshan nadaram chonke sarseporde ye Esrail va digar doshmanane Iran hastand va gam be game Farshaye shovenist dar rahe tajziye ye Iran and jange ghowmi nezahdi gam barmidarand. Shoma az koja midunid ke man vaght gozashteam ta Azeri ro yad begiram. Amma inke be zanab che miguyand dar miane gheshrha o klashaye ejtemai fargh dared, Bastegi be kelase ejtemai o tahsilat o gheyre darad, an midam ke Torki ham miguyand amma Azari ham miguyand. Piruz bashi. Kamran.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You are not listening

Babak, don't you think I KNOW that? Again, you are misunderstanding me. All those people you cite are PERSIAN speakers, not ENGLISH speakers. Of course "Iran" is what Persian speakers call the country for centuries, in their own language. But ENGLISH speakers, and the rest of the Western world, called the country "Persia" and the people "Persian" for centuries. So in Persian, it is "Iran" and "Irani." But the same thing in ENGLISH, it was "Persia" and "Persian."

Iran is not the only country which has a different name for itself in its own langauge. In Japan, the Japanese themselves call their country "Nippon" while the rest of the world calls them Japan. In Germany, the Germans themselves call their country "Deutschland" while the rest of the world calls them either Germany or "Allmane."

Do you understand the point? For English speakers to call Persians "Iranian" it is as modern and fake and confusing a term as it would be if the Japanese suddenly demanded everyone in the world call them "Nipponese." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 15:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Still in English sources we speak about the IRANIAN languages. This is the accepted English terminology uses in Linguistics. In wikipedia we should use the appropriate name. And honestly this terminology is more appropriate because it distinguishes between the Persian (Farsi) language and other Iranian languages Such as mazandarani, Kurdish, etc... --Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Babak, okay now you are speaking with reason and logic. I understand that recently (mid to late 20th century), many Western sources on many different subjects have converted to substituting the new term "Iranian" for the old term "Persian." However, this distinction is meaningless and is causing great confusion both inside and outside of the linguistics field. For example, is a carpet from Tabriz not a Persian carpet still? Or is it an Iranian carpet? Or is it an "Azeri" carpet? "Persian" is not just Esfahan and Mashad, it is the equal to "Irani"in Persian, which means the total sum of all the culture, history, land, and people of Iran.

Also, the confusion is fuel for foreign-backed seperatists to claim there is no connection between "Persians" and "non-Persians" in Iran. Because to Westerners, the term "Iranian" is not often connected to the term "Persians" even though they mean the same thing in English. This name changing confusion is being abused for political grounds to promote seperation of Iran.

The best way to prevent this is to use, when possible, the original Western and English term "Persian" whenever we speak English and want to say "Irani." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 14:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I am an anti-separatist, but the correct terminologies should be used. I believe in the territorial integrity of IRAN, so the correct usage of IRANIAN wont harm my goal. It benefits it. In general Iranians in the usa tend to damage Iranian unity because of their lack of knowledge of Iranian culture, politics etc... One more reason, NOT to accept their terminology.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I am an anti-separatist, but the correct terminologies should be used. I believe in the territorial integrity of IRAN, so the correct usage of IRANIAN wont harm my goal. It benefits it. In general Iranians in the usa tend to damage Iranian unity because of their lack of knowledge of Iranian culture, politics etc... One more reason, NOT to accept their terminology.--[[;;;;;

I am an anti-seperatist too. However, use of the term "Iranian" in English is a dangerous and confusion term and is causing damage to English-speaker's perception of Iranian unity because people now think "Persian" is different from "Iranian" even though they are the same thing.

They try to use "Iranian" for the whole country, and "Persian" as only a fake "ethnic group" which supposedly is only "51%" of Iran. This is nonsense. There is no such thing as a seperate "Fars" or "Persian" ethnic group. They are trying to define "Persian" as only Iranians from Esfahan, Shiraz, Tehran, and Mashad, and therefore all other Iranian people from Gilackis, Mazandaranis, Luris, Kurds, Azarbaijanis, Baluchis, etc. as "non-Persians" "minorities." This is nonsense.

That is why we need to use one consistent adjective that has been used for over 2,000 years in the West to describe the people of Iran/Persia - Persian - as an adjective for the WHOLE country, AND the language, and the name of the people of Iran/Persia. The fake new term "Iranian" has a contradictory and confused meaning amoung English speakers and causes political problems ultimately for Iran.

Unfortunately, many Persian speakers do not know enough about Western language and historical understanding of Persia to recognize the problem of using "Iranian" suddenly. And many Westerners do not know enough about Persians and their culture to understand that the term Persians have used the terms "Iran" and "Irani" to describe the Western terms "Persia" and "Persians." It is educated Persian/Iranian-Americans who have knowledge of both sides who can help fix this problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Very short I think you are not bringing up sound arguments. You were at mistake and you are trying to cover up your mistake by fake arguments, in order not to get blamed.: 1- I do not give a damn what kind of wrong terminology was used by the western people at atreets 2- Who are those educated Persian/ Iranian Americans? Sudi jun? Hamid Shabkhiz? Mohammad Khordadian? Luna Shad? Behnood Mokri? Ahmadreza Baharlu? Which clown? There might be a few educated Iranian Americans, but these people are a major problem. 3- Azeris, Gilakis, Mazandaranis are not minorities. Iranian constitution speaks about them as the superior people of Iran. Iranian constitution calls Armenians, Jews, Zoroastrians as minorities. To be minority you should have less rights. Numbers alone do not mean any thing. 4- Ethnic Persians are not fake and they do exist, like any other ethnic group in Iran. Indeed the usage of Persian as their name creates some confusion, therefore it is better to call them ethnic Fars or ethnic Persian speakers. I do know that there is much regionalism among them, a Mashadi and a Shirazi might call themselves as Mashadi and shirazi and not as a Fars, but despite the lack of subjective ethnicity, this ethnicity does exist. 5- I appreciate if you speak more politely and less arrogantly. It is very arrogant and unfortunately very common among the Iranian Americans. To be concrete: I do not appreciate your phrases such as you cannot even speak English well, or you are not listening 6- ZABUNETO GAZ BEGIR. DO NOT EVER AGAIN SAY THAT IRAN IS A FAKE NAME. Similar BUllshit is said by a traitor like Fakhteh Zamani (Iranian American) who supports the terrorists and wants to disintegrate Iran. How can you say that you are an anti-separatist if you say similar things?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Chand bar behet begam, "Iran" va "Iranian" dar zabane Farsi dorost hast, vali beh zabanhaye GHARBI esme fake va bi-ehtebari hastesh. Tammam-e-hovait va emtiaz-e-tarikhiye mellat-e-Iran Zamin beh esme "Persia" va "Persian" dar Gharb shenakhteh shodeh.

Let me ask you a question, ey ostad-e-zaban va farhang-e-Engilisi, if "Irani" means "Iranian" to you in English, then what does CIA's "51% Persian" population of Iran mean? Only people in Fars province and Esfahan? Azeris, Gilakis, Mazandaranis are not from Fars Province. The CIA right now does not consider them Persian! Do you agree with that nonsense?? So are they different? According to your vocabulary, they would be considered different. However, I am saying they are NOT different and they are all Persian. It is you who is providing Iran's enemies with excuse to call every group in every province of Iran a "non-Persian" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 16:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Dar zemn agar Hamid Shabkhiz raa mikhai bokoni namayandeye Iranihaaye America pass ejazeh beddin Ayatollah Khalkhali ya Ayatollah Jannati namayandeye bachehaye tarbiat-e-shodeh Jomhuriye Islami bokonim. Hanooz fekr mikonam maa ba hamoon Hamid Shabkhiz jeloim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 16:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

again you are very arrogant. I think a clown in Losa Angeles is not in astate to teach experts things. Ok your answres: No, Gilakis, Mazandaranis, Kurds etc... do not speak persian but they are defintely Iranian. In 51% o CIA is their numbers not included. I do not care about what you guys call yourself. It is Iran. Its demonym is Iranian. Even in persian we have different words for Iran (Iran) and Persian (Fars, Pars). The lingua Franca in Iran is Persian because it is originally from ostan-e Fars the ancient Persia. Iranian have never called Iran Persia. Persia is a foreign falsive invention and the educated people know that it is Iran. We are not going to sell our country for the sake of many vatanforush in California, Mohammad Khordadian ahead of them. I am not from Islamic Republic, so..... If you go on wih your rude and arrogant way of conduct I will reply to you in the way you deserve . Can you register your username and sign things you write. At least have the guts and manners --Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not up to Persians to decide what English-speakers have called Iran for 2,000 years. For example, Persians call Greece "Yunan" and Greeks "Yunani." But the Greeks themselves call their country "Hellas." Is it logical to suddenly force Persian-speakers to call Greece "Hellas" and Greeks "Hellasians"? Don't you think that would cause great confusion among Persian-speakers who have never heard of "Hellasians" before? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 15:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Please stop edit-warring

I should not have to tell you to discuss your edits. This is Wikipedia. If you disagree with an edit, talk about it. Do not revert it repeatedly. Do not dismiss or disrespect your fellow editors by expecting a simple edit summary to resolve any questions that might remain. We have a very specific process on how editing is supposed to work. It is called WP:BRD, which stands for Bold, Revert Discuss. A person makes a bold edit. If it is reverted, the editor then discusses the edit. Without any reasonable objection (the key phrase here being 'reasonable'), it is reinserted. Please learn this process. You are edit-warring (1, 2), and it is not acceptable. Reverting without seeking discussion will get you blocked and eventually banned. Use the discussion page for making your case against the edit. Simple 'too many' or 'i don't like it' excuses/reasons are not acceptable for dis-inclusion in our encyclopedia. I certainly hope I will not have to revisit this subject with you. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It may look bold but be fair, You single handedly had deleted everything you did not agree with. Things which were sourced and everyone agreed with. The simplest way to save the article was to revert all changes and then discuss each issue one by one. The discussion will follow. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

With respect, do not act as if you know me; it makes you look foolish. It isn't a matter of what I agree or disagree with; it is Wiki policy. If a contentious claim is made, it needs citation. When you see a or tag in an article, you ask the person who put it there (or the article discussion) why its there. You do not remove those tags under any circumstances. Ever. If you cannot find a citation, it stays. If you disagree that it needs citation, it stays; u then go to discussion and argue your point there, and not in an edit summary.

And I am going to be blunt with you, as you've reverted me twice, claiming I've removed sourced info that "everyone agrees with"; you are going about this the wrong way, and you are tossing away the good faith that you are given at the start of any discussion. If you think I am wrong, take the time to use the discussion to tel me how I am wrong. I am not, but I am willing to give you the opportunity to tell me where you think I am. Btw, the sourced info you keep saying I am removing the reference to the Washington DC beating of a muslim store owner who happened to Iranian? Not relevant. He was not beaten because he was Iranian - he was beaten because he looked Middle-Eastern. Look at the sources again. Nowhere in the sources does it say that the motivation for the attack was based on his nationality, but his appearance. I would point out that I have already said this in the discussion page post you seem to be unable to read.

So, forgive me if I am harsh, but if you keep reverting my material based on an 'i don't like it' claim, I can guarantee that it is an argument I will win. Discuss, and bring some actual reasons to the argument, and don't ever toss out the 'everyone agrees with it' argument either. Wikipedia is not a democracy; it works on consensus,yet - but a consensus working within the framework of the rules and guidelines.

I am truly hoping that we will not have to revisit this conversation. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all you began to insult me, when I was nice to you. NEVER AGAIN SAY YOU LOOK FOOLISH. OK? yes your edist were bad and having reviwed your edits it seemd that you had an agenda to let anti-Iranianism look less bad than it was. Things about the movie 30 should be deleted, the molestation of the Iranian shop keeper should be deleted, and despite the fact that there were so many examples and arguments to sustantiate the arguments you also questioned the truth in the sections on the Netherlands and Turkey. People like me have collected facts here and added to the text. It is indeed still a mess with regards to the text structure, but facts collected should stand. You can ask citation and I say I do not have problems with that, but if you delete the text so fundamentally, it will be very difficult TECHNICALLY to discuss things separately. As for the shop keeper: Iranians have a look. They look middle eastern and in addition Iranian shops have usually flags of Iran aor written as Iranian or Persian shop. It can happen that many rednecks would kill a sikh Indian for an al qaeda Arab, but this was not the case. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Look, let' start over; I am sorry for calling you foolish; people who assume less than pure motives on my part and call me a vandal tend to make me think they are acting foolish, because I am known for my extremely short temper. If you do not want me to make assumptions about you, do not make them about me. Do not call me a vandal or revert my material twice without discussing the matter in detail with me, because I can guarantee that you will not have a happy, friendly person to contend with. Before we move on, I will await your apology for treating me the way I have noted. When I have that, we will move on. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 13:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I never called you a vandal as I remember. It is also better not to say:|I can guarantee that you will not have a happy, friendly person to contend with.|. |Because that was not my impression about you.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay then. Let's head to the article discussion and iron this stuff out. Sound good? :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 21:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Its ok for me--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit-Warring, Take Two

I am sorry, but your interpretation was shown to be inaccurate by two other editors. While I appreciate that anti-Iranian sentiment does occur, the noted instance is not an example of it. It has been reverted. If you re-introduce it, it will be removed again. You have been encouraged to find a source that specifically identifies the attack as being motivated by the woman's ethnicity as an Iranian. Until that time, there is no connection between the attack and her ethnicity. Please ask an administrator to assist you if you are unsure of two other editors' interpretations. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

who were the other two editors?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Me and Agha Nader. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

but neither you nor Agha Nader have answered my question/ suggestion.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware that you had a question outstanding. What did you want to know, Babak? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 01:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I said why is Agha Nader so selective in his efforts, and why the same criteria is not applied at the article anti-semitism or any other anti- article for that matter?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is applied precisely the same way, Babak, and Nader was not so much selective in his examples as illustrative. If the attack had occurred in a store with a Jewish person was the victim, the motivation for the crime wouldn't immediately be considered to have been caused by their religious background, or what part of the country (or world) they were from. Now, if someone had written anti-semitic remarks on the walls, then it would be an eample of anti-Jewish sentiment, or simply anti-Semitism. However, if the words written on the walls were 'Californian, go home!', then - and only then - could we determine that the attack was based upon where the person came from. As wel know that the writing on the wall was anti-Muslim and not anti-Iranian, we cannot call it such. I hope that answers your question, Babak. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 06:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure who wrote the preceding paragraph, but is that a claim that Jews are necessarily Zionists? How can someone be attacked for being, say, a Russian or American Jew, and that not be anti-Semitic? Further, can one disagree with the position of the government of the State of Israel without being anti-Semitic? What about disagreeing with the very significant Christian Zionist "rapturists" in the US? Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 10:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I wrote that, and forgot to remove it as it was part of a working draft. As for answers to your questions, no - Judaism ≠ Zionism. As for your second question, it depends mightily upon the reason' for the attack. Were they attacked bc they were Russian or American, or because they were Jewish-American or -Russian? Without citable commentary noting the origin of the attack, we can never know for sure. We can feel it in our gut as to what motivated it, but Wikipedia doesn't allow us to use our 'gut feelings', instead demanding that we only add the notable gut feelings of others (aka, citations).

As for your comment, " very significant Christian Zionist 'rapturists' in the US", I am both unaware of the existence of such a group, or their ideology. As America tends to allow just about any religious activity (where it doesn't violate the law or another's "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"), I wouldn't be surprised that such a group existed.

Again, sorry for accidentally leaving part of my working draft behind. I've removed it as non-pertinent to the answers you were seeking. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

We are in considerable agreement. There is, in some Wikipedia areas, a tendency to play a foo-discrimination card without much reputable sourcing, other than a point is made that disagrees with a belief of some, but not necessarily all, foos.

Wikipedia does have an article on Christian Zionism, a subset of which believes it is necessary to have a Jewish state not to promote Jewish/Zionist identity, but to speed the Second Coming. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 00:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Like I always say, if I don't learn at least one new thing from WP in a day, I feel cheated. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what I mean. They regard any criticism of Zionism and Israel as anti-semitism. remarkably many critics are jews themselves. There are plenty of examples in the anti-semitic-related articles which do not fit the definition of Anti-semitism. But their authors have an easy job because most people do not want to get involved editing those articles and getting accused of anti-semitism. Remarkably they also accuse critoics of jewish origins as anti-semitic. Like the vast majority of Iranians I am not a fan of Ahmadinejad, nor did he ever denied holocaust. But just a question, is denial of Holocaust necessarily antisemitic? I mean many who do are anti-semites but is the act itself antisemitic? I do not know. In any case it is not anti-semitic if Ahmadinjead says that israel has no future in the world. It is anti-semitic when someone says that Jews kill children and drink their blood. It is also anti-semintic if someone says all jews should be driven into the sea. Similarly when israeli officials say "Iranian people will be extreminated" it is undeniably anti-Iranian.

Another issue is the article anti-Arabism. There too many are victims of anti-islamism but they qualify it as anti-Arabism. Although I do not see the israeli treatment of Palestinians as proper, this is not necessarily an act of anti-islamism or Anti-Arabism by the narrow definitions applied to the anti-Iranianism article. If Palestinians get mistreated it is simply violation of Human rights. It is the question if the occupants treated a hypothetically non-Moslem population the same. Finally the case of Christian Arabs. They might get harassed and mistreated in the west too, but is it because of their Arab background or is it because they get confused with other Moslem middle easteners? .--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

A Muslim Nation: LAZS-LAZEPE-LAZEBI

No Georgian boy ! Lazs are Muslim.Yesterday, today and forever.But some Lazs(In Georgia) Orthodox.Me too a Laz.And Lazs aren't Kartvel.Lazs only LAZI.Lazs are coming from K'olxeti origin bur Kartvels-Georgians are coming from Iberia."Kartvelism" is a facist term like "Turkism"

If you read carefully, I said that LAz are Moslems. About Kartvelian: indeed the terminology Kartveli shows similarity with Kartli (the core of Georgia), you can debate whether it applies to western Georgia or not. Nevertheless the Laz language is connected to Mingrelian and these plus Svan, along with Georgian comstitute what the linguists call the Kartvelian or South Caucasian language group.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Blablabla you talkk bulls*it. There are even more Pontus-Greek roots in Laz than Georgians. Why dont you give up terrorising the Georgian-related topics?--hnnvansier (talk) 06:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

TO ATABEK

I TAKE BACK MY COMMENTS AND LET ATABEK DO EVERYTHING HE WANTS. HAVE A GOOD TIME. I AM LEAVING WIKIPEDIA. BYE--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on West Azarbaijan Province. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Sehend1 has also been warned. This has nothing to do with the merits of the dispute, it has to do with cooperative editing. --Bejnar (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ossetians

Chuture? I noticed your notes on Kobers talk page. Indeed, there are more Ossetians who live outside of so called South Ossetia and majority of them ar enot hostile to their Georgian brethren, just yesterday there was a demonstration in Netherlands where both Georgians and Ossetians protested against Russian attempt of annexation. In 1992, many Ossetians went on hunger strike in Moscow and demanded Russia to cease its meddling in their affairs and provoking ethnic tension between them and Georgians, i remember delivering them Borjomi during their hunger strike in Moscow. You are correct, Ossetians are related to Iranic speaking peoples, as their ancestor Alans can verify. But they are not Persians or Iranians, however linguistically they belong to Iranic-Persian language group. Babakexorramdin can you help us on South Ossetia? Russians are storming that articles and implant POVs all over the article. Im gathering sources so i can correct many mistakes there. Khodakhofis! Iberieli (talk) 22:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We did not say that Ossetians are Persians or citizens of Iran. They belong to the Iranian speaking ethnic groups. I will come to South Ossetia to see what we can do.Are these the Americans who use their biased sources to push their POV all around the world, these are Russians who do this in the former Soviet Union. Then it becomes an unfair game, those who control the Media have produced more sources and they create a fake sense of objectivity. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 06:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of Iranian Arabs

An article that you have been involved in editing, List of Iranian Arabs, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Iranian Arabs. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Jeepday (talk) 11:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

Please be careful with your edits on Amir Taheri. I think it would be best to work it out on the talk page, first, before you revert the article again. I believe there is a way to move forward and include the information you would like included. Can you post a link to the article you are citing? I note that you have a history of editorial conflict. Please stay calm and trust the process. Ursasapien (talk) 08:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

All information is provided there already. It is simple what I say: I cite from Amir taheri's article, and then I refer to the reality. I do not put interpretations there, it is up to the reader, so it is by no means an Original research. And please do not talk with me in this intimidating tone. The resulting edit conflicts are due to the fact that others (with a biased veiw about Iranians) are better united than Iranians and they always push their POV at the cost of iranians.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, I did not mean to be intimidating in the least. I meant to be encouraging. I meant to encourage you to continue to contribute and have patience with the process we have here at Wikipedia. As far as specific issues regarding the article, I would like to keep those on the articles talk page. However, regarding original research or synthesis, le tme give you an example. Let us say that I have a news report that says, "Turtles are generally brown in color" and I have another article that states, "Turtles live in swamps, ponds, and rivers," I can not put the two articles together and write in the Turtle article, "Turtles are generally brown because they live in swamps, ponds, and rivers." Ursasapien (talk) 09:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I understand what you write. But what I say was I wrote "Turtles are brown" and "Turtles live in swamps etc..." separately. I did not say that brown turtles live in swaps. that is up to the reader to conclude or not.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You wrote:

"In a March 29, 2008 article, Taheri states that the the Shia Iranian Government supports Sunni groups such as Al Qaeda. Taheri states that Iran supports of a number of Sunni groups, including the Afghan Hezbi Islami (Islamic Party), the Algerian Islamic Salvation Front (FIS), and the Palestinian groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad. However, he states that the the Talysh nationalist movement in the republic of Azerbaijan and the main Pamiri party in Tajikistan are Sunni, when in fact they are Shia."

It should read:

"In a March 29, 2008 article, Taheri states that the the Shia Iranian Government supports Sunni groups such as Al Qaeda when it supports their purposes of damaging America and her interests. Taheri states that Iran supports of a number of Sunni groups, including the Afghan Hezbi Islami (Islamic Party), the Algerian Islamic Salvation Front (FIS), and the Palestinian groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad. However, he includes the the Talysh nationalist movement in the republic of Azerbaijan and Pamiri party in Tajikistan as Sunni groups. The [ABC source] states that the Pamiri party are exclusively Shia and the [XYZ source] states that the Talysh people are predominately Shia."

The two problems, with even this revised version, is that Taheri never mentions the Pamiri party in Tajikistan and Clifton, et. al.state, "As mentioned above, there are distinct differences within the Talysh community between the lowlands and mountain areas. First, the population of the mountain areas is Sunni Muslim while the population of the lowlands is mostly Shiite."

Ursasapien (talk) 10:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

See the talk on Talysh people and Amir Taheri. Ankimai does his best to push his views for the defense of Amir Taheri, but it is useless, because I brought there brought convincing evidence that Talysh are predominantly Shia and that the Talysh nationalist movement is so to. About the Pamiri party it is more difficult see the talk page.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Armenian Iranians

Can you please provide a reference for the statement "Their current population is somewhere around 400,000"? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

That was not my statement but it was written there and questioned whether it is true. As I saw that was sourced by Encyclopedia Orient. That Encyclopedia gives usually good and fair estimates. Now it writes that there are 500000 Iranian Armenians. Honestly I think there might be this much Armenian Iranians, but many do not live in Iran, but elsewhere in the world. It is here http://i-cias.com/e.o/iran_4.htm --Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

RE: Iran/Persia

Hi, you wrote me its "Iran" not "Persia". So you may take a look to the thousands of books which have been written about our country and also the maps. Until 1935 almost you can not see the word "Iran" in any of them. So you are going to say "Persia" has nothing to do with us and it's just "Iran"?! I am of course talking about the English contexts. BTW conterary to what you have stated, my reasons to use is quite clear not "unknown". Thank you. Pej.--Pejman (talk) 00:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

" You better look to the Iranian sources and all of them used the word Iran. I said that the correct terminology is Iran and not Persia. The English sources used a wrong terminology and by he way they are too old now. I do not take some old English wrong terminology over the consistent Iranian ones. Yes I should say knowing your backgrou nd, your reasons are known to me, but they are not productive. At this moment these terminologies are abused by those who want to disintegrate Iran!--Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

RE: Iran/Persia (2)

My dear, We are talking about Wikipedia English section. For English we can not look to Iranian Sources ! We should take a look to Western material. There are many coutries that their English/International name is different from their native name (esp. old countries like India (Bharat); Greece (Elas), etc.) If some have wrong idea about this name, it's not a reason that we do not use that. We should educate them about that. BTW you said "Persia" is wrong, why? --Pejman (talk) 08:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The name of Iran in English is Iran. And we should seriously consider Iranian materials.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Not traditionally. The name of Iran in English and all Western cultures has always been "Persia." The language is not "Farsi" but "Persian" and the people/culture are not "Iranian" but "Persian." The whole use of the terms "Iran/Iranian/Farsi" in the West did not exist at all from the beginning of civilization until the mid 20th century! Unfortunately, no matter what Reza Shah wanted, you cannot erase 2,000 years of name branding and referencing the the country as Persia and the language/people as Persian.

The more you try to push the "Iran/Iranian/Farsi" re-definitions, the more confusion you cause in the West. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani is a dialect of standard Persian

You admit both Encyclopedia Britannica and Encyclopedia Iranica call Mazandarani and Gilaki dialects. What language do you think they're a "dialect" of, if not the Persian language? Is it dialect of Turkish? Russian? Chinese? English?

Please don't be so ridiculous and admit when you are proven wrong by multiple top sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I never said such a bullshit, On the contrary I said that even those encyclopedia which you mentioned did not call them dialects of Persian. And the next time you better be courageous and sign your comments. And go get a life instead vandalizing the Iranian articles on which many hardworking Iranians are working.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

You're saying they did not call them dialects of the Persian language? Then what language are they dialects of? Arabic? Please answer that question and stop insulting people for disagreeing with your opinion. We are all hardworking Persians/Iranians trying to seek the truth.

The distinction between language and dialects is not always made on a hierarchical basis. It is not that a dialect is a variation of a language. Sometimes they call it a dialect because it has not much literature and/ or it has not a standardized version. I do not agree with this view but it exists. The article let it indistinct and remains ambigous about the name of language. But it suggests that it speaks about the Caspian branch of the Northwest Iranian languages. In my opinion and you will hear it from established linguists: " There are no sharp distinctions between separate languages and dialects if they are in a spectrum within one family. Every dialect is a little different from its neighboring dialects, but two dialects might appear to be very different and in some case unitlligible if you take two dialects which are located relatively far from each other. This however applies only for the dialects within the same branch or subunit. Gilaki and Mazandarani are Northwestern Iranian languages as Persian is a Southwestern Iranian languages. You cannot say that Mazandarani and persian are either a dialect of the other. " But you can say that Bakhtiari for example and standard persian are two variants of the same language, because they are both variants of the southwestern subgroup of the Iranian languages.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

osmething else. I did not insult you, but I think your vandalism of many Iranian articles and pushing your uninformed POV were out of place.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

just one quick note: It is not always right to say:

The distinction between language and dialects is not always made on a hierarchical basis.

For more information see dialect--Larno Man (talk) 17:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

note that I said "not always".--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Your note

Don't leave. keep up the good work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.242.209 (talk) 21:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you dear friend for your support--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

official languages

ok, you are right. Thank you for describing it in details and giving the reasons behind it. Whats your idea about this? Besides this, in my view there is a lack of Iranian Islamic architecture iamges in Iran article.(at least one more -in addition to naqshe jahan- is needed) whats your idea? --Wayiran (talk) 16:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Any one of these: [14] [15] to be replaced with the present image of naqshe jahan ?

Stop edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit war|edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. I hope you now cooperate. Otherwise I will ask for your permanant blockade.--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an example of enadvarzi and immitation. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Do not add unhelpful and non-constructive information to Wikipedia, as you did to 300 (film). Your edits could be considered vandalism, and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox.--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that I have edited 300. I do not remember when it was. Please stop this childish behavior. You are really childish. Just accept that your knowledge is rudimentary about many things and go on with something you are good at. Spamming the Tajik forum with your irrelevant picture. Feel Azad to do that.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Mani either you stop harassing me or I will take actions. Fahmidi?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I am going to report your threats. You said yourself you wanted to chalenge me at The Hague CS. and you were seemingly too affraid too. It is up to you to let it escalate or desclate by appologizing.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to block you and Mani for the recent edit war that went on at Iran. It doesn't matter who is wrong or right, please try to focus more on discussing your reverts rather than engaging in edit warring. This also needs to be done in a civil manner -- insults from both sides need to stop. I've blocked Mani as well, but I'm going to ask you the same thing that I asked him: please make an effort to resolve this dispute calmly and in a civil manner once you return from your block. Edit warring gets nothing accomplished, and personal attacks only make it worse. Khoikhoi 09:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Khoikhoi I support your decision. However I know that I was not wrong and I did not fell into the same level as mani did. I fully support your decision. And I hope that Mani got his lesson and behaves in a civilized manner like I did.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Khoikhoi just take a look at other edits of mani. because of personal problem with me, he has reverted all my edits. He is busy with a very unprofessional tupe of manner. He indeed has sent me threats and I did interprete it like it was. He can say I called him childish, but I never sent him threats. In many countries these threats are dealt with in a very professional way. Please consider that too and take appropriate actions. meanwhile It is good to revert all his vandalizations of my edits, because they are not profoundly based. For example his recent edit on the Persian-Speaking people is baseless. he removed Uzbekistan from the list of countries in which Persian speaking people are living. All other sources say other wise. http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Persian-speakers_of_Iran&diff=236408862&oldid=236234338

Also his actions on the article Iran is not appropriate because my formulation of text was very precise, and in addition there has been a longstanding consensus there. without discussing it, Mani reverts everything he doesnt like in avery agressive manner. Please take more appropriate action against him.It is Ok for me being bolcked as well, as long as he is blocked and warned for his agressive and unprofessional behavior.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

One revert rule. Dear Khoikhoi, please check all our discussions and you see that I have discussed the reversions with Mani, but he seldom did. Thanks--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Babak, it is never appropriate to call someone childish, regardless of the circumstances. I've warned both you and Mani to be civil from now on. I've also warned Mani to stop mass-reverting all of your edits (see his talk page), and told him to instead follow the dispute resolution process the correct way -- he has been blocked as well. Also, please retract this specific statement, since we have a policy on that.

As for the one-revert rule, a good method of resolving a dispute is that if someone reverts your edit, discuss it with them, and remember to cite sources. Both of you did this, but neither of you followed WP:DR all the way through. This is what I would like to see in the future. Khoikhoi 19:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for having made you trouble. Yes I said I will take legal action, because he threatened me physically and was proud of that too. By the way I think it will be better for wikipedia that Mani is confronted with more disciplinary actions. His massreversion of my edits, seem to be only because I did it. I have always provided sources and offered him more talk and debate. It was remarkable that he fell back into edit warring, ven when he agreed with the sources. I do not want to put my feet in the admins shoes, but in cae I was an admin I had given Babakexorramdin this blockade, but to mani a harsher punitive measure. But thats Ok. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that you need to unconditionally retract your legal threats per WP:NLT. It's just part of the policy and it's a technicality, there are better ways to go about solving disputes. Please just retract them and this minor problem will be solved. As I've already said, I warned Mani to stop mass-reverting, so I doubt he will do it again. Khoikhoi 22:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Khoikhoi as I understood the legal actions in this case do not involve the wikipedia or disputes about wikipedia. But good I will delete it from my talk. thanks for reminding me--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Great thanks. When you delete them, clarify in your edit summary that you retract them. Thanks again. Khoikhoi 19:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I have already deleted them, this means I have retracted them from the wikipedia domain. In any case Wikipedia won't be disturbed by this affaire any more.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I've left a warning on his talk page for this comment, but where are the physical threats? If necessary I can mediate this dispute so that a compromise is reached. Please let me know if the situation gets worse. Khoikhoi 05:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Khoikhoi, Physical threats were referring to his late comment that he wanted to challenge me at the Hague's central Station. That's the way often criminal youth in the Netherlands invite for a fight. If I reported to police then he was arrested and interrogated for some days. It is a very sensetive issue in the netherlands, especially among thepolitically sensetive minority groups, with other words Muslims.

But it is not that big problem for me. The main thing is that his behavior has become more and more irritating and disresepctful. Honestly I see these problems, whenever he is around. Some people do not change easily. It remembers me of the banned Sehend1. I do not say that Mani is the same user, but it was also remarkable that the permanently (?) banned Sehend1 did not change his behavior. Thanks for your efforts.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a diff for this Hague comment? The best thing to do is report physical threats, not respond to them. But apparently it was made awhile ago. He hasn't reverted recently, is it still a problem? Khoikhoi 18:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Re

I've left a message on his talk page offering some form of mediation. Please see the comment there and let me know what you think. I honestly just want this to stop, so hopefully we can work on a version that makes both sides happy. Khoikhoi 05:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I've replied again. I don't want us to have to go down that road which is why I'll try to work on a compromise version. We'll see. Khoikhoi 05:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Kaveh Farrokh

Hi, I have the impression that you are much less emotionally involved in the Farrokh article than other editors (on either side of the debate). I try to remain emotionally uninvolved, too, although I admit to sometimes losing patience or getting irritated with other editors (not you) that try to insert all kind of unimportant fluff. I have just spent about an hour of editing on the article and I honestly think that it looks quite reasonable now. Please let me know what you think and let's try together to improve it further if necessary and possible. --Crusio (talk) 15:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I'm a bit busy right now (with real life work...) and will have a look at those works soonest. If I agree with your assessment, I'll add them to the article. In case I disagree, I'll leave a message here or on the article talk page to explain why I don't and we'll talk about it further until we reach agreement. --Crusio (talk) 17:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I have added a reference to his article in Rozaneh to the article, as an example of his online publications. I don't think it is necessary to list all of his works, this is never done in articles on other academics either. What is sometimes done in other articles is provide a link to the website of those people where they list all of their works, that way WP readers can find the info, but it isn't included in the article itself. In principle, I don't think there is anything wrong with self-published works. It is just that they cannot be used as independent reliable sources to source something about the subject himself. They remain the subject's work, of course, and if notable enough (as shown by book reviews or citations by other scholars) can be included in articles (or even merit their own article). I have seen articles on novellists that had published several novels, but the articles were deleted not just because the novels were self-published, but because there was no evidence that anyone had noted them. If there would be mainstream reviews of such novels, the fact that they were self-published would be irrelevant for notability. Anyway, to cut a long rambling story short, if you have a link to a site with all of Farrokh's works, we can add that to the article and, as far as I can see, that would basically finalize it. Let me know what you think. --Crusio (talk) 08:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I have added the Iranscope link to the "works" section. I also corrected a few minor typos/grammar things. In addition, I removed some information that in the course of all the editing was now present twice in the article (don't think anything has been removed completely, but please check this). I still think that notability has not really been established: a book review, a chapter, some online publications, two books, none of which seems to have generated much interest -not talking about readers, but citations from scholars, book reviews in learned journals, and such. But given the material available to work with, I think we have gotten a reasonably good article and I hope that you agree. Let's hope the edit warring that was going on there for a while has now been put to rest! :-) Been a pleasure working with you. Happy editing! --Crusio (talk) 13:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

mail

if you Don't mind please contact me via email --Mardetanha ^talk 19:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Stop edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit war|edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. I hope you now cooperate. Otherwise I will ask for your permanant blockade.--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an example of enadvarzi and immitation. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Do not add unhelpful and non-constructive information to Wikipedia, as you did to 300 (film). Your edits could be considered vandalism, and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox.--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that I have edited 300. I do not remember when it was. Please stop this childish behavior. You are really childish. Just accept that your knowledge is rudimentary about many things and go on with something you are good at. Spamming the Tajik forum with your irrelevant picture. Feel Azad to do that.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Mani either you stop harassing me or I will take legal actions. Fahmidi?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I am going to report your threats. You said yourself you wanted to chalenge me at The Hague CS. and you were seemingly too affraid too. It is up to you to let it escalate or desclate by appologizing.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you threatening and challenging me to come somewhere? If so, say it clearly.--ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 08:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Look Mani. It was you who challeneged me to come to the Hague Station and I suspect the suspicious person who came to my adress was you or was connected to you. It is shamefull how far you go for a disagreement in wikipedia. It is not healthy --Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I have protected the Iran article. However, both you and Mani need to calm down. I have warned him to not mess with your talk page, but you can't throw around allegations such as these ([16], [17]) -- it is considered uncivil, and I would highly recommend that you withdraw them to avoid adding further fuel to the fire. If you honestly feel threatened you need to go through the proper channels, not through Wikipedia. As I've said to Mani, please take a deep breath, this is a minor editing dispute over a few sentences and could have been resolved easily through the dispute resolution process a long time ago. Khoikhoi 10:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully he can resolve the dispute with the other users on that page, Alborz and Raayen. Let's see. The page will be protected until a compromise is reached, and the current version of the page is not on Mani's version. So he is going to have to discuss as he can't revert anymore. Khoikhoi 03:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:

Dear Babak, sorry I did not reply earlier. In regard of the Persian language: Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan do not recognize Persian as a state-, official-, or regional language. In Turkmenistan, there are almost no Persian-speakers. In Uzbekistan, where the Persian-speaking population is estimated to be somwthing between 5-40% (!), the Persian language is more or less fobidden. That means: no news-papers or books in Persian, while most of the Uzbek musicians also have Persian songs.

For the time being, I have not come across any sources which could support the claim that Persian is recognized in Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan. Tājik (talk) 20:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Note

I'm trying something new. I've unprotected the Iran article, but any future reverts made against a clear consensus on the talk page will result in blocks. I have left a similar message at Mani's talk apge. Since I initially protected the page there hasn't been much discussion, so I'm assuming that all users are fine with this version. If you anyone isn't, they need to specifically address what they want changed on the talk page. As I've said to Mani, I will block the next user that re-starts the edit war, as this has gone on for far too long. Khoikhoi 04:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

As strange as it may seem...

As strange as it may seem, it really is legit. In fact, in the light of the overwhelming evidence for Hinduism, the "local legend" section is skirting the edge of undue weight; I had to phrase it very carefully to not go over the edge. -- Fullstop (talk) 04:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Enough fun and games. I've reverted to the last sane version. The article is now under WP:BRD. If you wish to change anything, you will need to be discuss it first. -- Fullstop (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Your "complaint"

I have moved your rant to my talkpage. If you want to "demand actions against me", you post to WP:ANI, not article talkpages. --dab (𒁳) 16:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

it is indeed up to you to fish for admin attention. I have told you right above that the place to do this is WP:ANI. I have to warn you that blatant attempts at wikilawyering tend to backfire though. Now please stop harassing me and do what you must. 11:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Please read the edit summaries more carefully

My edit summary suggested that the reliability of the source was in question, not whether it was being cited or not. In my edit summary, I requested that you come to article and help to verify the reliability of the source. What I did not ask, was for you to revert the removal of the questioned source and statement without availing yourself of article discussion. Again, I urge you to utilize article discussion, as it serves to foster both good will between editors, and help to ensure that the best consensus is found for article content. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 11:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a question, Bax (or 'Kamranmirza') - you are being told that the citation's reliability is questionable, so you must defend its reliability, or the citation (with its accompanying statements) cannot return until you do so. If you wish to defend said citation, open a discussion topic and defend it. It isn't up to me to do it for you.

Also, be advised that you have reverted thrice. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 15:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

username redirects

Hey, I don't think you've meant to mislead anyone, but this redirect from User:Babakexorramdin, which seems to be the account through which you truly make edits, makes me think you want to change your user name. Is that so? Or did you have something else in mind? Gwen Gale (talk) 17:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Please answer me. If you don't, I may have to remove the redirect and protect the user page to keep editors from being misled. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I have not multiple usernames. Kamranmirza is closer to my real name Kamran, so my user page is redirected to this page. I edit with my own ID. I am tired of Arcayne's attacks. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Civility warning

Please be advised that it is wiser to respond to edits and not editors in the article discussion. Your comment here is uncivil, and accuses me of racism. The next time it occurs, I will report the matter, and you can sit on your hands from anywhere from 48-96 hours (the next block). Understand that this is not a threat; it is a reminder that you are constrained to follow the rules that the rest of us do, or you will be removed from the community so as to better ruminate on those rules. I am offering you good faith in assuming that youdidn't mean to post a racist attack. Good day - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:52, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

re. Anti Iranian sentiments

You wrote: Yoiu should better explain what is the problem with the source, instead of unilaterally removing it. You tell me to come to the page's discussion page but there are no questions there.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, allow me to reiterate: you need to defend your "rewording" that utilizes peacock phrasing, touting the psychologist's academic standing. We don't do that here. I don't have to start a discussion about it; if you don't like it, after your preferred version is reverted, you get your behind to the article discussion page and stay there until you find a consensus. You've been told this before. Perhaps you might take a moment to recall that, Bax.

And please fix your ID, as Gwen has asked you. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 02:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

And your follow-up comment is not encouraging, Bax. The very next time you call me a racist, you get reported. If you have a question about the article, ask it. Address the article, not the editor. Please consider this your final warning on the matter. Be civil, and abstain from personal attacks, and you will find people to discuss with; do it not, and you will seal yourself away from others with yet another block for unpleasant behavior. I am unsure how to be any more clear than that. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Kaveh Farrokh is known as a historian and linguist. His opponents wanted to depict him as a psycholgist in order to create the image that he has not enough expertise to criticize the archivist called Lendering. We have had many times this talk before. But the problem here is that you persistently delte any reference to Iranian Azeris and change it to Azeris (suggesting from the republic of Azerbaijan). You changed the referrences from the Iranian Azerbaijan to the republic of Azerbaijan, also in the Googoosh article. This is either very funny or it means that you have an agenda--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it means neither, Bax. I have no agenda, except maybe to remove fancruft and to require citation for statements that would appear to require them. This isnt the first time you've questioned my motivations or accused me of being anti-Iranian and racist. It is either going to stop, or you are going to stop editing here; there isn't a third choice. If necessary, reread this entire paragraph. It is not a threat; it means that you have been given enough opportunities to be civil, and you've cluster-fucked each one. I will respond to this post (as opposed to simply deleting it) in the hopes that it will finally dawn upon you how Wikipedia works.

We use citation here; there is not one single thread of original thought here, or at least, that is the inspirational goal here. You need to cite Farrokh's educational background; he's written a book and he's lectured as a linguist. Does he have a degree in History, or Psychology? I don't know, but I am not the one who added the job of head-shrinker. Altering that to make him sound more of an expert than he might be is pov and weaseling, and it will be reverted from a vague concept to a clear one every time. If you wish to roll up your sleeves and cite Mr. Farrokh's educational background, please feel free to do so - you seem knowledgeable enough about the fellow to do a bang-up job.

I don't know if Farrokh has enough "expertise" to criticize Lendering - whoever that is. As for the Azeri stuff you seem to keep adding to various articles - um, yeah, that's called nationalist/ethnic pov editing. We don't do that here, either. In fact, it can easily get you banned as an SPA soapboxer. If someone is Azeri, provide a reliable citation to that effect; if you do not have one, you do not - I repeat, you do not - add the Azeri tag. It is really that simple.

If you see us butting heads again and again in the Anti-Iranian Sentiment article (where you incorrectly interpreted a lot of information, and wanted to also add a lot of uncited info), consider that my behavior and policy actions all occur within the structires of Wikipedia polices and guidelines. If you are having trouble leaving your personal feelings at the door, then maybe Wikipedia is not the place for you. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 01:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

And last time, you might want to contact Gwen regarding your multiple accounts, so she can help you fix them. You don't want folk to think you are concealing your edit history and blocks. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 01:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

You were warned to stop the attacks. You cannot say you were not warned. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Why Iran and not Persia, but Persian instead of Farsi?

Hi,

I've seen your discussions in some articles about what is right and what is wrong. I'm wondering, why you suggest the use of Term Iran and Iran which are the terms used in the native language, but you insist on using Persian instead of Farsi? When the English language starts to change itself in order to adapt to the more correct terms used in the native languages, so why make a difference? BTW is Farsi not just the Arabic term for Parsi, which has changed through Greek to the English term Persian? Mubed (talk) 04:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Iran is the real name. Persia is ad was only the southwestern part of it. The language called Persian is originally from that region, but has evolved as a non-ethnic lingua franca in the Iranian domain. Farsi or Parsi is not an English term, in addition it sounds more ethnic than persian does. Iran is not a mono-ethnic country, so everything should be avoided which attributes Iran to the ethnic Fars or any other ethnic groups (more than the others)--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it sounds logical me to avoid the term Persia because not all Iranians are Farses, but use the term Persian, because the language is indeed the language of the Farses. What I can not understand is, that you say Farsi is not an English word. I personally don't use the term Farsi because I know that this is not a COMMON English word, but this word IS a word in modern English and specifies the part of the Persian language that is spoken in Iran, distinguishing it from e.g. Dari which is spoken in Afghanistan. So Farsi is a - let's say - dialect of Persian, or - correctly spoken - one of the Persian languages, which themselves are a group inside of the Iranian languages. This is not something I or you can chose because what we find better or political more correct, it is just what linguists have defined for these languages. Mubed (talk) 07:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Dari as the name of the language of Afghanistan is a hoax. That language is simply a Persian dialect imposed on non-Persian people and is spoken wuth an accent and in many cases a wrong grammar, but it is no way Dari. Dari is the Islamic era court Persian. It was the persian of early islamic era written in the perso-Arabic scriptas opposed to the Sassanid pahlevi which was middle Iranian language. It was not a dialect but a stage in the Persian language. Simply said: the modern Persian. Farsi is not an English word, but they are pushing it to acept that word as the name of this language. The reason is that they want to detach iranians from the legacy of classical persian language. they want to depict it as the language of the Fars people, a new language without literature. While Persian refers to the classical persian which was the lingua Franca of the Iranian world and was not an Ethnic language. For example many Turkic people wrote and spoke in persian. But Ok look at these terms: Lingala, Urdu, Papiamento, etc... Yes they use the native names only for such non-litterary and pidgin languages, by calling persian as Farsi, they want to lower the level of this language. It is also notable that certain editors in wikipedia are advocates of using farsi instead of persian.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Jona Lendering

An article that you have been involved in editing, Jona Lendering, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jona Lendering. Thank you. EALacey (talk) 20:22, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Maskouts

This is what historian Anatoly Novoseltsev says (translated by myself; original Russian text is here): "It was the alliance with the Alans that helped to rout the Bulgars, expel part of them to the west and subdue the rest. The Maskout tribes of the Caspian coast that were related to the Alans and were subordinated to the Khazars probably contributed to the strengthening of this alliance as well. It is necessary to dwell at length on them. The Maskouts are the ancient Massagatae that were first mentioned by Herodotus as residing in Central Asia, where the founder of the Ancient Persian kingdom, Cyrus the Great, had died in a battle with them." Parishan (talk) 12:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The period discussed in Church of Caucasian Albania and the 6th century B.C. are 700 years apart. It was possible that some Massagetae migrated into the Caucasus from Central Asia. Parishan (talk) 04:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Atashgah

Hi. Please email me, and I'll send you the source that I have about Atashgah. Grandmaster 15:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear Grandmaster I have no email of yours.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

It is easy. Go to my user or talk page, and on the left hand side there's a section called Toolbox, which contains a link called "E-mail this user". Click it, and write your text. To be able to email other users, you will have to enable your own email in your Preferences (click the link called "My preferences" on the very top of this page). Grandmaster 06:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Persianization and Safavids

درود، کاربرد واژهٔ

Persianization

برای این مقالهو برخی از دیگر مقالات ویکی انگلیسی معنای درست این واژه را نمی‌رساند. چرا که در تعریف آن چنین آمده: «ایرانی شدن فرایندی فرهنگی یا زبانی است که در آن چیزی غیر ایرانی به ایرانی تغییر می‌یابد» اما چگونه می‌توان این تعریف را برای خود ایرانیان استفاده کرد!؟ به نظر شما آیا بهتر نیست از واژه‌هایی دیگر چون

Persianiation

یا چیزی مشابه استفاده کرد. این موضوع هویت ایرانیان را پس از اعراب زیر سوال می‌برد. مگر نبودند کسانی چون همنامان شما «بابک‌های خرمدین» که قیام‌ها بر ضد اعراب به پا کردند و بسیاری از دیگر دلایل که هویت ایرانی پس از اسلام ایرانی ماند. نظر شما چیست؟ موضوع دیگر اینکه مقالهٔ صفویان در ویکی انگلیسی اکنون چطور است؟ به نظرم اگر نقشه‌ها و عکس‌ها همگی یک اندازه(سایز) داشته باشند ساختار صفحه زیباتر می‌شود. نظر شما چیست؟ دوستدار --Wayiran (talk) 09:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not get your point honestly. You truely say that something cannot be Iranized which is already Iranian. Safavids were Iranian and no need to Iranize them. I said that Safavids were an Iranian empire. In the modern sense of the world. No need to get the headache of the ambigous "Persian"thing and discuss endlessly whether it means the ethnic Fars or ancient Iran or any other vague notion. Iran was used since the Sasanid times in Iran. And Safavids used the word Iran in all their document. Safavid empire is very much the ancestor of the modern Shia Iranian state.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

There are two different things. First one is about the article Islamization in Iran which has used the term "Persianization" process for Iranians/Persians themselves few centuries after Islam. It is wrong because Iranians/Persians had their own identity through out the period of Umayids and Abbasids. The definition of Persianization is: "Persianization is a process of cultural and/or linguistic change in which something non-Persian becomes Persian.". How can we use the term for Persians!? "Persianization of Persians" is a contradiction. Now I suggest a new word like "Persianiation" or something else for this issue. Is there any correct word for this purpose (that Iranians again paid attension to their past) instead of Persianization? Second thing, was that is the "Safavids" article fine now in your view? Thanks --Wayiran (talk) 18:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I will check Safavids more and more. I usually there check vandalism made by such funny figures as Atabek, but do not pay attention much to other established users. I will have a look at that. About your question. Yes Iranians can be Persianized. This has happened in central Asia. Large East Iranian speaking people such as Bactrians and Sogdians have adopted the Persian language. Also in Iran many Iranian languages are replaced by Persian. While in central Asia and Afghanistan it is not clear whether or not we can speak of persiianziation, because only their language has become persian but they have other identities, Persianization of Iranians inside Iran is an undeniable fact.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so you mean that after the first 1 or 2 centuries from Islam, "Persianization" occured for all Iranians. But I guess "Persianization" in that article means "Iranization", and that much of "Persianization" had already happened during the Sassanids. By the way I'm also originally a proud Azari, from Zangan (zanjan). (My father is from Zangan and my mother from Semnan). --Wayiran (talk) 09:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Iranization and Persianization are two different things. Central Asia was not Iranianized after islam. In fact it was Turkified ultimately. But in the first centuries after islam it was linguistically Persianized. Persianization did not occur everywhere. There are still non-Persian Iranians such as Gilaki, Mazandarani, Kurd and most notably in Central Asia the Pamiri peoples. Also Azeris were not Persianized, they remained Iranic speaking Azeris untill they Turkified.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Atashgah of Baku

Hi Babek, thanks for notifying me, I uploaded this photo I have more photos if you think we could use it let me know. Baku87 (talk) 12:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Babak, I currently have a problem with a user here, who seems eager to do anything when trying to halt the creation of this article User:Ariobarza/Battle of the Tigris, even going as far as to propose a ban on me on old accusations that are false, if you could respond on my page, I appreciate it. Thanks.--Ariobarza (talk) 05:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk

Hi

Hi again, I have contacted like 10 people (there is a possibility I will be flooded my new messages), if I get banned you can say goodbye to new creations for Cyrus's battles. Therefore, for now, if you can monitor the situation, and I will give you updates on it soon. I just need you to be ready when the day of the possible debate to keep me alive or not comes. I thank you for your support.--Ariobarza (talk) 08:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk

The time has come, you can go here, administrators' noticeboard to oppose my ban, thanks again.--Ariobarza (talk) 12:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk

Request for involvement

According to the history of the Iran-Iraq War article, you are a significant contributor to it. Therefore, I was wondering if you would like to get involved in a discussion I have started concerning a proposal to trim some sections, and move some text back into the article. The discussion can be found here: [18]. Thank you very much if you do get involved. Cheers for reading. Terrakyte (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Government

You wrote: "authors wrote this who are benevolent to your government and Musavat and Elchibey alike." I live in Canada; my government is not linked to this issue, and in the future, please refrain from using terms like "your government." Parishan (talk) 09:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Where I am from and what my background is should not be anyone's concern. I especially do not appreciate the fact of you jumping to conclusions about my ethnic origin and discussing them on Wikipedia. Let us keep this to academics, that is all I expect from you. Parishan (talk) 23:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Iraqi people

Why do you keep on editing the article on Iraqi people if you are from Iran? Kurds are not Iraqis as much as they are not Persian! In fact, they are not even semitic! So please stop changing this article on IraQi people! —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiSeyd (talk • contribs) 16:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems that you have serious troubles in understanding it. Kurds are Iraqis. They are not Semitic. This means that not all Iraqis are semitic. Iraq is a multi-ethnic country. Take it or leave it. It seems that you think Iraq is Arabicized Assyria. This is not correct. It is clear that you have serious problems with Kurds and Persians and Shia etc... but wikipedia is just a source of objective information.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

It is clear that you continuously vandalize the article out of sheer emotion. I do not have a problem with Kurds, Persians or Shia and I have never suggested that. In fact, I am myself quarter Persian and Shia. Yes Iraq is a multi-ethnic country but so is Iran and I do not see any reference to Kurds or the Kurdish language in the article about Persian people. We are Iraqis and proud of our people and history and we emphasize with the Kurds who are a fine people who unfortunately do not - yet - have their own country. But it is not just me who is annoyed by your serious vandalism but we are a group of 27 (22 Muslim Iraqis (14 Sunni and 8 Shia) 2 Christian Iraqis and 3 Kurds) who have started to improve articles concerning our country and all agreed on the article on Iraqi people. So please, we know more about our country just as much as you know more about your country - Iran. However if you do decide to keep on vandalizing the article, please mind your punctuation, spelling and spacing - it is a serious embarrassment to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiSeyd (talk • contribs) 23:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh i see what your doing, your a spammer, Kurds are NOT Iraqis, so stop adding the Kurdish language to British Iraqis because there is a British Kurds article. Typical Iranian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikineek89 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yazına fikir ver

essek senın atandı.fars qehbenin toremesi.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.235.113.39 (talk) 19:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Ana gahbe siktir git, haramzade gotveren. Changiz Khanin gote git oghrash--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

leave

hi babak/kamran. it's really a pity that you leave wikipedia. however, i can understand the reasons you've stated,very well. take care --Severino (talk) 04:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

My meta wiki

My Metawiki page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Babakexorramdin

My Meta Wiki talk page

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Babakexorramdin

(سلام. از صفحه کاربریتان بر میآید که در ایران زندگی کرده اید و الفبای فارسی را میدانید. شاید نوشتن به زبان فارسی در اینجا ممنوع باشد. ولی تسلط من به انگلیسی در حد خواندن است. لذا فارسی می نویسم و اگر میل داشتید خودتان آنرا پاک کنید. اما دلیل مزاحمت. دیدم در متا به مرد تنها رای مثبت (مثل من) دادید. گفتم با توجه به اینکه در ایران نیز زندگی کرده اید (تصادفا من در شهر شما اصفهان سالها دانشجو بودم) بد نیست تبلیغات کاربران الفبت و سندباد را نیز به نحوی خنثی کنید. به عنوان یک کاربر ویکی انگلیسی، که ویرایشات زیادی نیز در این ویکی دارد، اثر این خنثی سازی توسط شما بسیار بیشتر از من است. ارادتمند شما )--دانقولا (talk) 23:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Please do not make quotes up

I have just had to change a "quote" you made up referring to an article in the Encyclopædia Iranica on the Qashqai page. Please do not do this again - if you quote someone you are supposed to use their exact words not a paraphrase. If you wish to paraphrase a quote you can do so, but please try to be accurate to the original meaning and do not place it in quote marks. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 01:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I find your discourse very arrogant. For your nfo the quote was not mine. It was there. I only changed the into. and removed the Kashkuli part leaving the rest of the quote intact. In addition I do remember I checked it with Iranica and that was Ok. I might have forgotten to put a link or something I do not remember but what I did is not what you are accusing me of, for example changing Persian Gulf to A... Gulf has had nothing to do with me. Anyone who knows my edits sees that that was unimaginble..--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

APOLOGY TO Babakexorramdin

I apologise to Babakexorramdin for the accusation I made against him of misrepresenting a quote. It is clear now that he just gave the wrong reference (the one I checked) and he has now corrected it.

In other words he made the simple mistake of giving this reference [19] for [20] and I did not, as the Wikipedia advises, "assume good faith" and accused him ujustly. I guess because of some of misleading changes by another user at about the same time I was upset about this site being misused - which it was - but NOT by Babakexorramdin who seems to have just made an honest mistake, which is now corrected.

I unreservedly apologise and am very sorry for the misrepresentation and any other hurt I have caused. Sincerely yours, John Hill (talk) 12:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

thank you very much. It shows your class John. I am also sorry that I reacted bitterly. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

And thank you so much for your kind note. I look forward to working with you to help make this article on the Qashqai and others where we have a common interest more accurate and informative for all. I send you my very warmest wishes, John Hill (talk) 03:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

For your attention

Kamranmirza, you may wish to view my comment here. You may also wish to keep an eye on this entry (please consult its talk page, here) and this one. --BF 01:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Kamranmirza. Happy Nawruz to you too! --BF 18:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Happy new year

Hello Dear babak and happy new year and i very upset that you are still mad with me about fawiki :-) you and Mani both are my friends which i deeply respect , so lets forget bad memories and forgive each other for bad moment that we made for each other . Sale-no-mobarak - doostdare abadie shoma --Mardetanha ^talk 21:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I couldnt find your talk page. Happy New year to you too--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Re:St. Abo

Hello Babakexorramdin. Hope you're fine. The only source about St. Abo is the 8th-century hagiographic novel by Ioane Sabanisdze which clearly identifies him as Arab. True, the medieval authors - Georgians not excluded - frequently confuse ethnicities, but Sabanisdze was Abo's contemporary and he may be trusted in this case. If anything, he is the ONLY source of Abo's life. Best, --Kober^Talk 17:57, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

არაბიელი - "Arabieli".

არაბიელთა თესლი, მამულად და დედულად, რომლისაჲ მამაჲ მისი და დედაჲ მისი
"Of the stock of the Arabians on the side of his father and of his mother...

--Kober^Talk 18:12, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Shah Abbas's Mother

Hello Babakexorramdin. I just looked into a couple of Georgian sources. They speak of Abbas's Georgian grandmother (of the Shalikashvili family), not mother. Besides, he appears to have had four wives - sisters of Teimuraz I, Luarsab II, Anuqapar Amilakhvari, and Simon-Khan.--Kober^Talk 20:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi again. The more look into the sources, the more confusing they are. All sources published in Georgia or in the west agree that Abbas's grandfather Tahmasp did have a Georgian wife, daughter of Otar Shalikashvili, but they don't explicitly say that she was Abbas' grandmother. I don't currently have at hands an article about Iran-Georgia ties recently published in Tbilisi. I remember it said that Abbas' father Khudabanda was born of a Georgian mother. This claim can also be found in Tengiz Tsotsonava's short course of Georgian history (vol. 2, pp. 86-90). On the contrary, authors like Andrew J. Newman say that Khudabanda's mother was of the Mawsillu tribe ([21]). The same source identifies Khudabanda's half-brother Haydar as the son of Tahmasp by his Georgian wife. I will need to check other sources as well because I always knew that Khudabanda's mother was Georgian.

As for the ghulam army, I agree with you: claims about its being a band of "slaves" is complete ignorance. kidev vnaxav da mogcer. gmerts ebarebode, --Kober^Talk 12:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Btw, Newman also speaks of Zaynab Bekum, "Abbas's aunt by a Georgian woman" (p. 66), but gives no details of her family ties. --Kober^Talk 12:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I just looked into Cyril Toumanoff's version of Bagrationi genealogy where Shah Abbas I is identified as the third son of 'Abu'l Muzaffar Muhammad Muhammad Khudabanda Shah by his second wife, Nawab-i-Sipihr Istibah Bilqis uz-Zamani Khair un-nisa Begum, daughter of Mir 'Abdu'llah Khan II Mar'asi, Governor of Mazandaran.--Kober^Talk 12:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

You should definitely bring the Persian sources which support Abbas's Georgian ancestry. True or not, an "alternative" version merits inclusion if it is backed by credible sources regardless of their language and origin. There is nothing wrong about Persian sources dealing with something about Persia. Be bold! --Kober^Talk 13:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Few questions

Hi Babakexorramdin, i got some questions concerning Persian history articles in non-english wiki.. (maar ik wil het niet hier bespreken)--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 02:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Hallo, wat zijn je vragen over de Iraanse geschiedenis?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Kunnen we misschien via email of ^e-talkiε!! communiceren, als het mogelijk natuurlijk? Thnx :]!--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 12:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

dat lukte niet met email. vraag maar gewoon hier. Iraanse geschiedenis is niets geheimzinnigs--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Het gaat om een paar artikelen (Abbas I of Persia en Ismail I van de Safawiden)- in het Russischtalige wiki. Sommige editors zetten de Azeri vertalingen van hun namen als eerst in het begin van het artikel en in het algemeen willen laten zien dat Safawiden zijn van Azeri kom af terwijl bekend is dat het niet het geval. Dus, Iraanse vertalingen van de namen van die twee Perzische Sjahs worden op de tweede plan gezet en overal in het tekst wordt op Azeri oorsprong van deze dynastie geaccentueerd. Reden is: hun moedertaal was het Azeriturks! Wat denk je erover!? Alle redacties van me, terugzetten van Perzische vertalingen worden natuurlijk ongedaan gemaakt. Ik vind het onterecht en helaas ik heb weinig tijd om iets te uitzoeken en te bewijzen dat het verkeerd is. Dankje--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 16:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Safaviden waren van een gemengd afkomst. Hun overgroot vader was Koerdisch. Ze hebben inderdaad Azeri bloed, maar ook Georgisch, Circassisch, Tat, Turcoman, Perzisch etc... bloed. Safavidische Rijk had als officiele ambtelijke taal Perzisch. In het leger werd echter veel Azeri gesproken. Shah Abbas had een Georgische Moeder volgens een overlevering. Aan andere Kant zijn Oma was Georgisch (moeder cvan zijn vader naar men zegrt). Shah Safi had nog meer Georgisch bloed, omdat zijn moeder was Georgisch. Ongeacht humn etnische afkomst Safaviden waren een Iraanse dynastie. In al hun documenten stond Iran. Ze noemden zich Shah van Iran etc... Natuurlijk wat vandaag de Republiek Azerbaijan heet was ook van Iran, maar dat land heette vroeger niet Azerbaijan. Dat is Arran en Shirvan het oude Kaukasisch Albanie. Iraanse Azeris zijn gewoon Iraans. Die mensen uit de republiek Azerbaijan zijn ook een Iraans volk maar om een of ander reden haten ze Iran zo erg veel dat ze hun eigen cultuur willen ontkennen. Er zijn niet veel Iraniers die Russsch kennen daarom schrijven ze in het Russche wikipedia die gasten uit Baku zoveel onzin. In ieder geval het is heel erg dat ze de naam van die Shahs in het Latijnse alphabet schrijven want in die tijd werd geen latijnse alfabeet gebruikt. Naam van die Shahs wordt in het Perzisch, Azerbaijaaans, en Koerdisch op dezelfde wijze geschreven.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Jammer dat er zijn niet veel iraniërs die russischtalig en actief zijn (in ruwiki). Alleen maar armeniërs en russen proberen iets te doen met dergelijke, soms wel absurde verdraaiingen van de geschiedenis. Kortom als je hulp nodig hebt (van of naar russisch iets te vertalen en zo) zeg het maar, ik kan je wel helpen.--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 12:43, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Wat we moeten doen is hun latijnse schrift terug te draaien naar de Iraans Azerbaijaanse versie. Wat ze nu doen is Iraanse grondgebied en geschiedenis te claimen. Dat is heel dom van ze. Armeniers helpen Iraniers niet. Ze zijn wel blij dat Iraniers geen partij tussen hen en die gasten uit de republiek Azerbaijan trekken. Turken en Armeniers waren geen vrienden. Nu gaan Turkije en Armenie beter met elkaar en relatie tussen rep. Azerbaijan en Turkije is verslechterd. Russen heeb ze laten vechten met Armeniers, maar nu zijn ze goede vrienden met republiek Azerbaijan geworden. Die gasten uit republiek Azerbaijan zijn echt dom; ze maken voor niets vijanden van Iraniers--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:11, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ik bedoelde daarmee wiki-editors van armeense en russische kom af die zijn goed aan het observeren. En wat betreft die gasten... als je hun gang laat gaan dan krijg je in plaats van Perzische een Azerbeidzjaanse rijk. Ok, maar je bent tevreden met dit opstelling: eerst in het Azeri (Perzisch alfabet) daarna in het Perzisch en niet integendeel?--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 21:09, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Volgorde is niet nu erg belangrijk. In Iran wordt beide talen gesproken. Eerst moet het Latijnse alfabeet echt weg. Daarna moet men iets aan de inhoud doen. Als de inhoud correct is dan maakt hun volgorde niet zoveel uit. Wel is het beter dat de officiele taal (in dit geval het Perzisch als eerste wordt geschreven).--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:43, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Daar heb je inderdaad gelijk in--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 20:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

zo te zien is deze Russische man Voyager aan hun kant. Russen zijn onbetrouwbaar. We hebben veel mensen nodig (niet met Armeense usernames, want dan zeggen ze dat er een samenzwering tegen hun is!). --Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

My answer to the editing team from the republic of Azerbaijan.

Iranians have nothing to do with your issues with Armenians. So any arbitration in that matter is irrelevant. But the edtors from the republic of Azerbaijan are making trouble with Iran in a manner detrimental to themselves. They are relying on the power of their numbers at the Russian wikipedia. Overall there are more Iranians everywhere and it is just a matter of time to revert the lies posed at the Russian wikipedia. And now you are saying wrong things. I asked you ina good faith to stop the behaviors by the racial-nationalistic editors from the republic of Azerbaijan. May I remind you that I was not the one who removes the Latin versions, but it is you that removes the Iranian-Azeri versions? What right do you have to include your owwn alphabet in our pages, when you insist that we do not include our alphabet to yours? It is arrogance and territorial agression. You can say that it is just wikipedia, but I have seen the publications from the republic of Azerbaijan which usurp Iranian history and territory. This will ultimately lead to a conflict much bigger than the Karabakh conflict. Wikipedia could have been a non-political source and if your editors were not this nationalistic and cahuvinistic these could be turn positive for everyone, unfortunately your editors have chosen for confrontation and agression. And please do not say talk about it at Russian wikipedia. Your guyz have asked Voyager to block me and now you say ak in the Russian wikipedia? that is not fair. Moreover their behaviour is causing uneasy feeling among all Iranians, and if you know that there are 70 million Iranians, the chances are great that soon or later people, registered or not again revert their agression and wrong information. Please do not make wikipedia a political battleground. It is just en encyclopedia, and should be factual correct.As a sign of respect you can remove the latin versions from the Russian pages which concern Iranian territory and history, to begin with.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Mr, Schurov, since you have disabled my account at Russian wiki and did not answer me ther, I ask it here. May I ask you what is the rightful or logical basis that the editors from the rpeublic of Azerbaijan are allowed to put their alphabet on the Pages on Iranian history and territory, while they insist thatw e are not allowed to put the Iranian_Azeri written versions on their sites? If they say that Azeri language has two alphabets, then they should also accept the same formula regarding their cities and personalities. Why this double standard? They behave chauvinistic and regarding the fact that not many Iranians know Russians, they had their free hand to include factual inaccuracies on the Iranian-related pages there in the Russian wikipedia. This nationalistic unscientific behavior of theirs is very disappointing and bad for the quality of wikipedia. I hope you are able to change this undesriable situation.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Azeri and Iranian affairs

De tijden zijn veranderd, we moeten onszelf niet met haat vullen omdat er iets in de middeleeuwen is gebeurd. Ik ben zelf ook minderheid maar daarmee houdt men zich niet meer bezig in Azerbaijan. We zijn allemaal Azeris, allemaal geintegreerd met elkaar. Met eenheid maken we nog kans op een sterke onafhankelijk staat dat onze interesses zal vertegenwoordigen, als iedereen zijn eigen gang gaat dan zullen we allemaal poppetjes worden. Iedereen in Azerbaijan weet dit, inc alle Talysh, Lezgiz, etc.

Ik houd me niet echt bezig met Iran, ik weet niet waar het nou eigenlijk over gaat maar ik kan me voorstellen dat de lokale naam altijd erin wordt toegevoegd en ik neem aan dat vanwege de Safavid dynastie de Azeri namen worden toegevoegd omdat die van Azeri afkomst waren dus dat zou toch geen probleem moeten zijn. Zelf heb ik ook een paar keer gezien dat Iranezen hun eigen versie van de naam in Azeri republic zetten wegens het geschiedenis enzo. Het is vanzelfsprekend dat het van beide kanten komt. Ik denk als Iranezen vrienden willen worden met Azeris dan zou het verstandig zijn als ze ons zouden helpen met het corrigeren van Azeri-Armeneese geschiedenis. Bijvoorbeeld Iranezen weten heus wel over de migratie van Armenen naar Azeri landen enzo. Toch wordt dit genegeerd op op de wijze van "negeren" helpen ze de Armenen met hun valsificaties. Baku87 (talk) 09:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ik kan je garanderen, Azeris haten Iranezen niet, dat is onzin omdat beide zo close zijn. Als je Baku, Tabriz of Tehran bezoekt ongeacht of je uit Iran of Azerbaijan komt maakt het voor de mensen daar helemaal niet uit. De vijandigheid zit alleen in het politiek en niet in de mensen of cultuur. Ik denk gewoon dat Azeris wat erkenning nodig hebben en niet als minderheden moeten worden behandeld, de twee hoofdgroepen in Iran zijn altijd Perziers en Azeris geweest. Alleen omdat Azeris geen Iranic moedertaal hebben moeten ze niet als zomaar een buitengroep behandeld worden en hiermee heb ik het over de feit dat er geen Azeri scholen zijn en dat de Azeri taal door 30 miljoen mensen in Iran wordt gesproken en toch geen officiele taal is.

Ik heb geen professioneel kennis over het geschiedenis van Iran en Azerbaijan omdat het gewoon zo ontzettend complex is. Ik weet ook niet veel van de relaties van Iranezen en Azeris op wikipedia maar over het moderne geschiedenis en politiek weet ik wel wat. De hele Karabakh conflict is een artificieel conflict, tijdens de administratie van Elchibey was Armenie en Nagorno-Karabakh onder blockade, 90% van hun import and export ging via Azerbaijan, alles was onder de controle van Baku. Echter is zo'n situatie natuurllijk niet in de voordeel van Iran omdat een sterk en stabiel Azerbaijan Republiek natuurlijk seperatisme van Zuid-Azerbaijan kan opwekken in Iran. Dit wist je al vast wel. Dus Iran opende de grenzen met Armenie en gaf ze olie, gas, voedsel en verleende financieel assistentie. Dankzij Iran kon Armenie uit de blockade en daarmee begon de oorlog hierop reageerde Elchibey natuurlijk woedend en begon de anti-Rus en anti-Iran en een pro-Turkije politiek dus de anti-Iran athmosfeer in Baku is niet zomaar uit de lucht gevallen. De ex-president van Armenia - Levon had zelfs in een speech gezegd dat als Iran nog 5 dagen langer had gewacht voor het openen van de grenzen dan was Karabakh nog in de handen van Baku. De situatie zoals het vandaag is, een onopgelost conflict is natuurlijk in de voordeel van Rusland en Iran. Vandaag is er een soort coalitie van Rusland-Armenia-Iran tegen Turkije-Georgie-Azerbaijan. Daarnaast kan ik je ook vertellen dat zowel Turkije, Iran en Rusland - Armenie hadden gewaarschuwd om niet Naxcivan over te nemen. Armeniers werden gewoon beetje te enthusiast en begonnen Naxcivan aan te vallen, maar zoals ik eerder zij; Karabakh is een artificieel conflict en Naxcivan was niet inbegrepen in die plan omdat dan de Kavkaz uit balans zou zijn en onder controle van Armenen en dat wilt niemand. Het is allemaal zo gemaakt dat het in balans blijft.

Maar goed, ik denk dat het beste is als we één onderwerp tegelijk bespreken. Waarom is het een probleem dat de latijns Azeri naam wordt toegevoegd bij een artikel? De Azeri taal wordt toch in 2 soorten alphabeten geschreven en een groot deel van Azeris in Iran kan ook latijns-Azeri lezen en schrijven. Alleen hierdoor wilt Azerbaijan Republic heus niet beweren dat Tabriz tot hun toebehoort ofzo? Baku87 (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ik zei niet dat de Azeri taal verboden is of dat er discriminatie tegen ze is ofzo, maar dat Azeri de tweede officiele taal van Iran zou moeten worden, er zijn toch zo'n 30 miljoen Azeris in Iran dat is bijna de helft van de bevolking van Iran. Er zijn veel landen die meerdere officiele talen hebben. Er zijn zo'n 150.000 Armenen in Iran en ze hebben zo'n 40 scholen, terwijl Azeris 0 scholen hebben, en je weet waarschijnlijk ook dat de Armenen in de Azeri provincies leven. Dus op ons eigen grond hebben de Armenen wel scholen terwijl wij daar we recht niet hebben, dat is een national schande. En schoolboeken zijn makkelijk te controleren in Baku hebben we toch ook geen Bozkurt boeken ofzo. Er is nu een assimilatie programma aan de gaande in Iran en ik denk dat Azeris zowel uit als Baku en Tabriz het recht hebben om hun moedertaal en cultuur te verdedigen tegen zoiets.

Je hebt op bepaalde gronden gelijk maar ik blijf bij de punten die ik je had verteld over Elchibey enzo maar ik kan je duidelijk zeggen dat het verlies van Karabakh gewoon ons eigen schuld is en dat we niet Iran of Turkije de schuld geven. Het zijn uiteindelijk Azeris zelf die Karabakh hebben verkocht! Jij komt wat anti-Turks over, iedere onafhankelijke staat heeft zijn eigen interesses en zal die ook volgen ten koste van zijn buren, vrienden en zelfs broeders (dat kun je vandaag zien aan Turkije). Maar ik ben echt geen anti-Iranees ofzo, ik houd me niet bezig met Iran en ik denk dat de Azeri overheid ook niet anti-Iran is, we hebben ons handen vol met Armenie en Rusland. Ik heb ook geen edits in de Iran-Azeri affairs op wikipedia. Het klopt wat je zegt over het gebruik van de Perziche alphabet in Azerbaijan maar vandaag is dat niet langer zo dus de Azeri taal wordt in 2 alphabeten geschreven. Je hebt vast al een oplossing in gedachte om een wiki-oorlog te vermijden. Baku87 (talk) 10:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Ik denk dat belangrijke artikelen Treaty of Gulistan, Treaty of Turkmenchay en Khanate of Erevan zijn. Tijdens deze verdragen was Azerbaijan nog in Iran dus dit heeft dan tegelijkertijd ook veel te maken met Iraanse geschiedenis. We zouden de demografische veranderingen kunnen laten zien en de emigratie van Armenen uit Ottoman en Persian Empires naar Erivan en Karabakh. Misschien heb jij (Iraanse) bronnen hebt die hieraan kunnen bijdragen? Baku87 (talk) 10:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Dat zijn typische sneaky Armeense argumenten, maar zouden we die bronnen niet als nog kunnen gebruiken en duidelijk maken dat de Moslims in Erivan - etnisch Azeris waren? Zou je die bronnen kunnen laten zien? Baku87 (talk) 14:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Guys, a friendly warning before both of you get warnings from admins and possibly more (and it is really friendly because in reality there is admins that look into these things). Please see WP:Forum. This is not a forum to talk about this stuff. Stuff written about Elchibey, Armenians, 30 million Azeris(actually the number is around 1/3 of that by provincial estimates and actual census), "sneaky Armenians"!, Lezgi/Talysh minorities in Azerbaijan, etc. is meant for forums not wikipedia. Unless the purpose is to improve Wikipedia or improve articles, this is not a place. These sort of talks have shown to be not useful and actually do not help in anyway in improving Wikipedia. Just work on finding WP:RS sources for any editorial conflict and report anything outside of Forum. So I suggest you guys take these emails to private settings, because with google translator and dutch language, it is clear that if admins read this, they will take serious measures here. Just thought this warning is reasonable before actual admins give them. Thank you.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 03:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

a short translation of the Dutch text: Baku87 wanted me to take a look at some articles and if I can provide him with Iranian sources. I answered him what the problems are that we cannot use those sources. And why Armenians maintain that these were Turkic peoples while editors from the republic of Azerbaijan maintain that they were Azeris. And that in the English sources mostly "Muslims"and "Persian Subjects"are used etc... But I did take a look at the treaty of Turkmenchay and it appeared that Atabey had mistranslated a Russian article. I removed it and he corrected it. Actually it was a useful request from him!--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Arash

Well as you know Arash together with Aysel are representing Azerbaijan at Eurovision 2009 in Moscow, Arash his nationality is obviously Iranian-Swedish but its also well known that he is from Azerbaijani roots, I got the source from the official Eurovision Biography on Arash, check it here. I am not trying to depict him as an Azeri from Baku, but people are wondering why an Iranian is representing Azerbaijan, thats why its necessary to add Azerbaijani roots in this article and thats also why Eurovision added it aswell. This is a very small edit and means no harm, however these simple 3 words are getting removed everytime, could you perhaps take a look? Baku87 (talk) 15:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

As I know Arash is born in Mazandaran his mother is from Borazjan and Shiraz in Southern Iran (Fars), and his father is From Esfahan. He might have a grandfather that is Azerbaijani. Most Iranians have multiple ethnic background. His ethnicity is not important and has nothing to do why he helped the Azerbaijan Republic. I know how it comes but that is irrelevant. That was smart of republic of Azerbaijan, because there are large Iranian communities in Europe and they are going to vote for them by televoting. Turks won't vote for them because they have their own competitor. So it is important that people from the republic of Azerbaijan know this. I will come ther and a take a look --Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Pishkinid dynasty

Gamarjoba Kober. While ago you asked if I have additional information about the Pishkinid Georgian dynasty of iran. This source says that Meshkinshahr is named Meshkin after them نوبختی خیاوی؛ سلیمان، خیاو، گمشدهٔ تاریخ، تهران: نشر قو, ۱۳۸۰، Khiavi, Soleyman, Khiav: Gomshodeh-ye Tarikh. Tehran: Nashr-e Ghu, 2001 The local name of Meshkinshar has been Khiav, which in the old Iranic language of Azerbaijan means a place where there is abundance of water. the source says that it was known as bishkin, mishkin etc... after the Pishkinid Georgian dynasty. Meshkinshahr is located to the East of Ahar.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:57, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Gamarjoba Babakexorramdin. Many thanks for the info. It is really very interesting. --Kober^Talk 04:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Category:Georgian people

Hello As you will notice if you go to Category:Georgian people, this is a disambiguation category - there are to be no articles in it. I understand the distinction you made, thank you. I would like to recommend that you considering archiving your talk page. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

re:again Safavids

Hello Babak. Sorry for a late reply. My time and resources are rather limited right now. I have found a book about the historical Georgian women by D. Qoridze. There is a brief chapter on Princess Shalikashvili there (დ.ქორიძე. ” ქართველი ქალები”თბ. 1976წ). Unfortunately I have no scanned version of it. According to Qoridze, the daughter of Prince Otar Shalikashvili was married off to Shah Tahmasp at Qazvin. Vakhushti reports that this dynastic alliance was requested by Tahmasp himself during his stay in the recently occupied Tbilisi in 1548. She mothered two sons: Shah Ismail and Khudabanda, this latter being Abbas’ father. This woman played a role in negotiating King Simon I’s release from the Shiraz prison and then presented Simon a sword wrapped with her own veil as a sign of peace and unity between Iran and Kartli. I'lll let you know if I find more info. Best,--Kober^Talk 04:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

Please express your further concerns at talk first if you don't agree with edit summaries. I don't want another edit war. Thanks. brandt 13:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

question

Hi. Can I ask you? Ali Hamenei, Mir-Hossein Musavi and Mehdi Bakeri azerbaijanians? Can you tell me, iranian azerbaijanians are the same as azerbaijanians of The Republic of Azerbaijan?

1- yes 2- no but share the same religion and nearly the same language both th real Azeris (from Iran) and those from republic of Azerbaijan (its real name is Arran and Shirvan) have an Iranian culture.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

Hi. Please refrain from repeatedly undoing the edits of other people, like in Azerbaijani people. Please be aware that the article in question is subject to the general restrictions of the arbitration case Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. I think a reasonable compromise could be worked out at talk.

I do not think this article has any thinbg to do with Armenians. So that arbitration commitee is out of its place.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I also proposed a compromise wording for the article on Baku khanate. Please have a look talk of that article. Take care. Grandmaster 07:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Grandmaster as I said before we can agree on a reformulation "self-governing khanate in the Iranian territory".--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Map of Durrani Empire

The map showing the extent of the Durrani Empire (Afgempdur.jpg) doesn’t seem to be appropriate. Firstly, the map is not in English, which makes it difficult to understand it. Such a map has very high chances of misleading the readers instead of guiding them. Also, the map doesn’t tell the actual year(time) of the maximum extent of Durrani Empire.

Secondly, the limits of the influence of the Afghan Empire(vassal states) is shown covering Rajputana(Although Rajputs were unfriendly towards Marathas, Rajputana wasn't in any way a vassal of the Durrani empire), part of present day Maharashtra and even Malwa- the stronghold of Holkars & Gwalior- the stronghold of Scindias(Holkars and Shindes were potent forces even after the Maratha defeat at Panipat). Even though the Marathas had lost the battle of Panipat, there wasn’t any chance that anyone (including Abdali) could come even near present day Maharashtra. After the battle, Abdali quickly retired to Afghanistan and the Sikhs had emerged a potent force in Punjab. Although he attacked Punjab twice after 1761, he didn't make any decisive gains and didn't come south of Punjab. This map doesn’t seem to be made by an expert and I also have doubts over the western extent of the empire. It is extremely inaccurate and is misguiding the users. It seems to be highly biased, violating Wikipedia’s NPOV policy and seems to be made by an Abdali follower. This map needs to be removed from Durrani Empire and Afghanistan. Kindly go through this. Thanks Kesangh (talk) 17:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Did you try deleting the map? Well, no problem, i will do the needful. Kesangh (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Sunnis of the Caucasus

I can provide a whole bunch of sources in Russian stating the same thing. Even Abbasgulu Bakikhanov in his 1841 work mentioned that Sunnis of Derbent and of Dagestan in general are Shafi'i, whereas those of Quba, Shaki and Shamakhi are Hanafi. (See preface to Gulustan-i Iram)

Most Muslims of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia, as well as Northwest Caucasus language-speakers of Azerbaijan are traditionally Shafi'i, whereas the rest of the North Caucasus Sunnis, a portion of Kumyks and Azeris of Azerbaijan and Georgia, Muslim Georgians, Nogais, Sunni Tats and Meskhetian Turks are Hanafi. Kurds in Azerbaijan are predominantly Shia with a minority of (possibly Shafi'i) Sunnis living in Nakhchivan. While I have heard of some remote villages in the Talysh area that are Sunni, I am clueless as to what school of law they follow. Parishan (talk) 09:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

As I said, most Northwest Caucasus language-speakers of Azerbaijan, including Lezgis, are Shafi'i, like Dagestanis, and Muslims Georgians of the Caucasus (including the Ingiloi) are Hanafi. Parishan (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Blue Mosque

Hello, and thanks for your message and your words of appreciation.
I am aware of the issues you mention, and frankly I do not wish to be involved at this stage in lenghty discussions about language policies, political use of languages and other issues of local politics. I am not endorsing, nor do I have a reason to endorse, that the Azeri language should, or shouldn't be written in a particular alphabet (whether Latin, Cyrillic or Perso-Arabic). As much as I respect your point of view, I see my edit purely as a matter of romanization/translitteration for the sake of clarity, since one can't assume that all the viewers of a site in English will be well versed in Arabic scripts. Persian isn't written in Latin either, but we include its transliteration for the sake of inclusiveness. I thought, and still think, that the same criterion, devoid of any other political connotation or conjecture, should be applied to the Azeri toponym/place name. Best regards, --FrancescoMazzucotelli (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Anout: Azerbaijani language in Iran does not use the Latin Alphabet

Hi Dear, we dont have 2, 3 or more Azerbaijani languages we just have one Azerbaijani language with 2 scripts, one is used in South Azerbaijan or Iranian Azerbaijan the other is used in North Azerbaijan or Azerbaijan Rep. it is not about Azerbaijani language in Iran, it is about Azerbaijani language itself, also if you were Turk you could understand the people of both sides of Aras river are same nation with same language and two script because of their different governments, we dont have lang-south-az or lang-north-az in Wiki , we just have lang-az. so which one is this? north or south? Latin or Arabic alphabet? when we use lang-az we should mention both because officillay it has two standard scripts nowadays.look, we write Azerbaijai not Azarbaijani because in English Azerbaijani is right now not Azarbaijani and this page is in English not Iranian Azarbaijani according to their beleives.

Regards,

I thought before you were a respectable person from the cultural heritage institute but now I see your true face. To answer you, then we should add Cyrllic and Latin to Persian because in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan they write it with cyrlic and Latin. And we should add Arabic to Kazakh because in china they use Arabic script for that.

Just a question why dont you put our alphabet to the cities in the republic of Azerbaijan? its simple because you are THIER agent! BTW very bad of you to say if you were a Turk. I DO speak Turkic and I can communicate with those people from the republic of Azerbaijan as you have read my messages before.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

hi again

Sweety I am not their agent, your way of think is similar to radicals unfortunately. My lovely boy if I was an agent of some ones I would really prefer to be an agent of Islamic republic coz at least I could get some "pool", "vam khaneh", "mazaya and tashilat", “baton and chomagh” etc, but I don’t get money from somewhere now :) I have one face if you wanna see and a way of think that is improving day after day. I love Tabriz, Tehran, Isfahan, Shiraz, Persepolis, Gilan, Kashan ALSO I love Istanbul, Baku, Samarqand, Bukhara ALSO I love Paris, New York, Barcelona, Roma. You see I am not only Panturkist chauvinist but also Paniranist or Radical Islamist or Jewish or etc. my way of think is extremely liberal and free. I don’t belong to anywhere also I belong to every where, I am not only proud of being Turkish or Iranian or Moslem but also being Modern etc, I guess we shouldn’t be "Gayrati", "Fanatic", "Radical", all these close the free way of thinking. I love Tabriz, I love Iran, I love Azerbaijan, I feel same for all these I don’t think I am closer to Azerbaijan than Iran or vice versa. I just say Tabriz is part of Azerbaijan as well as Iran, culturally dosnt matter where is the borders becoz borders have not been important never, they always have changed during the history but cultures remain. Language and its script is part of culture not politics, nation doesn’t have official language, governments define a language as official in their constitution, and there is no official rules about Iranian Azeri script, it is just an unwritten contract between Iranian Azeris which use Arabic Alphabet, Arabic script is not official, is it? Where? In constitution of Iran? If I tell you I am an “Iranian Azeri” and I write my mother tongue in Latin alphabet, can you say I do wrong? According to which rule about Iranian Azeri script do I write wrong? Is there any rule somewhere between hips of rules in Iran which I don’t know?

So I just say why you all don’t want both scripts of Azeri language which one of them is at least official and the other one contractual to be written in this page? You delete the Latin alphabet and the others “Panturkist chauvinists” as you said delete Arabic alphabet. How long all of you will continue this game? Why you don’t want to accept the “middle way”? All of you doesn’t have acceptable and reliable ideas. You think you are right, that’s it. All of you can accept both scripts and respect the others and stop this bullshit game. Isn’t it better? Or you want to continue to this ”Roo Kam Koni” game?

Also I should mention we cant use Cyrllic alphabet in page of Persian cities like Tehran becoz of Tajikistan. The Official language of Tajikistan called Tajiki not Persian, Pls have a look to page of Tajikistan and see part of official language. It is not Persian, it is Tajiki. But here have a look to page of Azerbaijan Rep., it is Azeri. Same.

If you have any “Gayrat” or … pls ignore them when you edit an encyclopedia, we shouldn’t mix our believes with the Facts.

Regards my friend, Kiss :*

Ahiskan Turks

Ever met with an Ahiskan Turk? They all speak Turkish -if not assimilated by Russian- and none of them define themselves as 'Georgians'. How do I know? I am an Ahiskan Turks too and I do know many others; including pre-Soviet exiles and Stalin exiles.

I wonder how come an Acem (Persian) can comment that easily on a historical and political issue that he is not related at all. 'Meskhetian Muslims' huh? What the - is that; NONE of us live in Meskhetia (Ahiska) anymore. Who are those 'Meskhetian Muslims' then? Its full of Armenians and Georgians.

We are, Turks; no matter what a Persian call us; we speak Turkish; we are Sunni Muslims just like Turks; and we call ourselves as "Turks".

My grandfathers were Ahiskan Turks and they were freedom fighters agains Russian Empire; and they fled to Turkey after they lost the war. Not Persia nor other parts of Georgia. None of us know a single Georgian word.

And whatsmore is; the returned Ahiskan call themselves "Georgians" because as you do well know, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RETURN TO GEORGIA FOR US, WITHOUT ACCEPTING BEING AN ETHNIC 'GEORGIAN'.--hnnvansier (talk) 06:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not going to let my Ahiskan roots to be 'tested' by a Persian lover non-Georgian. You have nothing to do with Georgia and Ahiska. Mind your own business, edit about related topics such as Luristan.--hnnvansier (talk) 11:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)::: look first of all I am not an ethnic Fars as you say persian. Secondly ethnology has nothing to do with one's ethnology. Moreover How do you know that I am not a Georgian? And something more I appreciate it if you lower your intonation and reduce your insults when you are talking to me. A suggestion: If you feel Turk, stay in Turkey. I think you are happy now in Turkey. There you hear Ne mutlu Turkum diyene and Bir Turk Dunyaya Bedildir. You won't hear such things in georgia and moreover have to fight the Armenian settlers. Your story that your GGrandfather has left Georgia for Turkey sounds strange to me. Offical reading is that meshkhtians have not foght the Soviets and were deported totally without a sound accusation. Now you say the otherwise. It's sad that you are traying to crash the hopes of Meslhetian rehabilitation by your words --Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

They were exiled before Soviet revolution, after the last Russo-Turkish war. I dont have to fight with those Armenian settlers since it is Georgian government's problem, not mine. I know how nationalist Georgia is; probably one of the most ultra-nationalists nation in the region. But yet, I do not have any problems with Georgians. Fascism lies withing your thoughts; you 'hide' the fact that majority of the Ahiskan Turks are ethnic Turks which settled that area by Yavuz Selim's order. However, you try to show us as Georgians, Armenians and Kurds.. And now by your last messages, I see that you are full of hatred against Turkey and Turks. What is bothering you?--hnnvansier (talk) 19:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Why would I hate the Turks and Turkey? You are free to call yourself Turk. Even Anatolian Turks are not real Turks. It is obvious when you do genetical testing to them. They are a Middle eastern Eastern mediterranean people, different than Turks (Yakuts, Khakass, Kyrgyz etc...).--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Noone is Aryan--hnnvansier (talk) 17:30, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Who was talking about Aryans???????--Babakexorramdin (talk) 04:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Hatred

I know this is not a forum but I would like to ask you why you feel the west has hatred against Persian history.NeoRetro (talk) 18:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Ghurids

Please have a look at Talk:Ghurids. Thank you. Tajik (talk) 10:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting, always try to find an Iranian/Tajik to help you out with such disputes. (Ketabtoon (talk) 13:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

WP:STALK. Tajik (talk) 14:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Farah Diba

If you visit and view the source mentioned in the Farah Diba site you know that she was born in Tehran, thats what the source says.She was not born in Tabriz. I will correct it again and please dont remove it. Its not any fasle statement.--84.208.214.118 (talk) 07:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Majority of sources say she was born in Tabriz. Fars news, an IR source wants that she is born in the American hospital, to attach her to America, even in such a naive way. her facebook page citing her memoir says she was born in tabriz. All sources agree that her father was an Tabrizi. Even your source does not say that she was an ethnic Persian speaker. reviewing your edits'record I see that you are instigating ethnic controversy everywhere rather than constructive editions. So please do not do this. Thanks--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:11, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Your attention

Hello dear Babek, I wish to ask your attention to this matter which you have more knowledge on, I hope you can contribute on this. Neftchi (talk) 22:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Salam Neftchi. I have already opposed the Hindu variant and supported the Zoroastrian background of Azerbaijan republic as well as any other lands in the Greater Iran. I am happy that now natives take this in their hands. At that time there were a few Panturkist guys from Republic of Azerbaijan who supported the Hindu variant. They hate everything Iranian, and thus also their own culture that they commit such ridiculous acts. Azerbaijan has been Aturpatakan. Aturpat was the name of the governor of Iranian Azerbaijan during the Achamenidian empire. He fought against Alexander. Aturpat (or Atropat in Greek style) means the guardian of holy fire. Atur or Azer is the son of Ahura Mazda in popular old Iranian blief. Azer or holy fire has got a symbolic meaning in the Iranian lands. We see that also in the Sasanid time Azerbaijan (the Iranian Azerbaijan( was an important land and there were Ateshgahs for the Kinfg. The Shahanshah (the great king of all Iran) perfomred ceremonies there in what is now called Takht-e Soleyman, many people belive that this was the site that the Great King of Iran was crowned. There are ample connection of the etymology of Azerbaijan to zoroastrianism. Bad for Hindus and Panturks.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Salam khobi:)

Hey I was wondering if you could possibly help me out with something. I'm trying to learn more about Iranian philosophers such as Farabi, Ibn Sina, Biruni, Ghazali, Tusi, Rhazes, etc..and also about Irnaian history such as the Safavids, could you recommend me any books written on these topics in english (sorry my Farsi is unfortunately really poor and I cannot read Persian works for the life of me, even though I wish I could!) Thanks for your time. Khodahafez

Ditc (talk) 23:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)ditc

Iranian Air Flight 655

I disagree with your edits to this part of the Anti-Iranian sentiment article. Your edits imply that the crew deliberately shot down the flight which, according to the source, was not the case. If you believe that it was, you're going to have to back it up with another source.

EDIT

I've reverted your edits to this section of the article because you've removed claims that the original source, not myself, presented. 76.124.53.163 (talk) 20:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Iranian geographic names

Hello. Thanks for your many contributions to that article but lets try to add more sources for the many new names listed.Kalifo (talk) 21:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Georgian Iranians

I do not have any kind of "big grudge" against Georgians of Iran as you call them. The simple truth is that I find it highly unlikely that they would qualify as Georgian in any way - those people are simply Iranian. In regards to my nationality, I am a native born Georgian. The mere fact that you think being Georgian can somehow prevent one from embracing modern liberal values of the civilized world speaks volumes of how ideologically underdeveloped you might be. I have no doubt that those so called Georgians in Iran are in more dire circumstances in terms of their ideology. In this manner, even if those people were in the past Georgian, I doubt that their now transitional "homeland" will benefit from them in any way. They can stay were they are, I am confident they feel comfortable in the system they live. They would have left long time ago if they did not. --Satt 2 (talk) 01:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I fully support and respect our brethren in Iran, who have maintained their language, heritage and love for their real motherland. They are as much Georgians as those who were born in Georgia. However, statements such as: "Georgians emigrated to Iran due to Russian Empire" is incorrect. Most of Georgians were forcefully deported by the genocidal campaign of Persian Shah's (Shah Abas) to Iran. Otherwise, we should solve al disputed through constructive dealogue and respect. My love and admiration to my Georgian brothers and sisters in Iran. Iberieli (talk) 18:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you are talking about different things. Georgians have migrated to the Iranian interiors at different times, under different circumstances. Georgians were not a unitary groups. They were those of higher classes. Close to the kings. They were soldiers and Ghulams. They were peasants. There were even those who were enslaved. They were those who moved for personal (usually opportunistic) reasons.Georgians came to Iran (many voluntarily, many by force) even before Shah Abbas, and the migration continued until the Russian incorporation of Georgia. This is unfortunately silenced in the (Russianized) Georgian history books. Thank you for your nice words. Iranian Georgians also love and respect their Brethern in Georgia. Even non-Georgian Iranians hold a very positive sterotype of Georgians. This is very rare indeed. Iranians hold negative sterotypes of allmost all their neighbours, except for Georgians. I think this tells a lot about the Georgian noble character.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I would like to correct you on something very vital. Georgian history books were never Russianized, although there were great attempts by Russians to eradicate some parts of Georgian history. Georgian historiography is intact thanks to dedication and scholarship of our historians. Therefore, we are not taught by Russianized history but from the enormous scholarly publications such as History of Georgia by Ivane Javakhishvili. Plus we have tons of early medival annals and 17th century historiography by Prince Vakhushti Bagrationi to rely on. Iberieli (talk) 00:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

• People went to Iran for opportunities? You make it sound as if it was like the United States or some country that actually gives opportunities. How come most of them are concentrated in a single region - just a coincidence ? People who spontaneously migrate do not just happen to live so close together. Here in the US, there are small Georgian communities but people are scattered based on where they NEED to be. Only a traitor would go to Persia voluntarily when its leadership wanted to completely destroy everything Georgian. Kings and Ambassadors begged European powers like France to intervene but they were too far.

Russians could be brutal but at least they did not conduct mass killings and rapes to destroy everything non-oriental. Georgia was fortunate to be under the Russian Empire than Persia.That was the epoch when people could do other things besides war. When they could go to Moscow, St. Petersburg or other places in Europe and get a proper education. That was the time when we built our first opera, first state theater which still stands there. Your country has bough nothing besides those disgusting sulfur baths in oriental style - architectural crimes that will soon hopefully disappear. Robbed churches, stolen treasures, massive and deliberate killings of Christians... I dont know where to end. --Satt 2 (talk) 22:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Georgians are not only in one region. They are scattered all around Iran. The Georgians of Fereydan and Fereydunshahr are not the only Georgians. The aristocratic Georgians have married Persian girls and assimilated. For example the poet Bahar )Malekoshoara) was a descendent of the Royal Georgians who fled to Iran in the 19th century. The last eorgian crown claimant Alexander fled to persia in the 19th century. He was supported by the Iranian Crown Prince Abbas Mirza in his fight against the Russians. And I was talking about opportunities in the 17th century. Yes the 17th century Esfahan gave opportunities. It was a very Capitalist (you like it I guess) society. The administrative center was concentrated there and in Shiraz where the Undiladze family ruled. You want toi get rid of the Sulfur bath? And you call it an architectural crime? It is funny. Go and see Tbilisi. It is for most part a 1950-1970 Russian-Soviet style city. Houses need restoration etc... and now you call Sulfur baths an architectural crime? It is funny. And Stalin has destroyed many buildings. The only part of the city which has remained authentic Georgian is the Old Tbilisi, and now you want to destroy it too? What do you want to build instead? Texas style ranches? Is it liberal enough? Is it American enough? I see no reason to discuss with any one with your level of intelect. I do not think that Georgian people are happy if you tell them that Old Tbilisi should be destroyed.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 05:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

برادر کامران به خوبی انجام شده. او خیلی نفرت انگیز بود و بی ادب به من بیش از حد. Izzedine 00:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but I think he will come back with new usernames. I do not know what is his problem. Wikipedia has seen more of these people from different nationalities. By the way where have you this Persian text from? Who did translate it for you? Nice.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 06:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

If it happens and you need any help just let me know. See how he was with me. I am learning Persian, it's a nice language, but I use this translator. Izzedine 12:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Khirdalan

Hello, I wonder is Khirdalan now counts as city? as in CIA Factbook, no information available. It doesn't says Khirdalan is city or rayon.--NovaSkola (talk) 15:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

well it has nice beer, doesn't it? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Green Movement

This user strongly supports the Green Movement of Iran (GMI) جنبش سبز ایران.

Pls put this userbox in your user page if you support Green Movement of Iran and send it to your friends in Wiki.

Ok, I agree with u

Ok dear, I agree with u. put the Kurdish lang. in that page again pls. But about the rest like Talysh and Tat(wich I guess u called old Azeri lang.), I guess the lang we put in a page should at least be spoken by a remarkable groups of people live there not just in 7-8 villages with less than 100,000 speakers overall. As u know U.N defined the languages with less than 100.000 speakers as dead lang. Also I couldnt find lang. Azerbaijani or Kurdish in the page of Tehran or Karaj as u said, I'll try to put but I'm sure fars chauvinists will clear them. میگی نه؟ صبر کن و ببین

Pournick (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Also I forget to mention there is no harassment as you know, people themselves start not to use their mother tong cos the other neighbouring counties cant understand them. It has happend to many Turkish speaking groups like Khalaji Turks of Markazi province or Afshar Turks of northern Khorasan, Kazakh Turks of Kerman and Shahsevan Turks of Hamedan, Qom, Saveh and around and some small groups of Turks tribes around Shiraz as well. Do u think Panfarsists harass them to forget or not use their language as well? I dont think so...maybe I am too much optimist! Pournick (talk) 16:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Sorry again, I couldnt find Georgian, Qashqai and Armenian in the pages of Isfahan as well! neither city nor province. Why did u give me wrong infos?

ضمنا عطف به صحبت دیگری که داشتیم

نه دوست عزیزم، ممکن است این جک ها ساخت تهرانی ها باشد، اما توسط فارس های دیگر شهرها هم مورد استفاده وتحقیر و مضحکه قرار می گیرد من خود شخصا شاهد این تحقیر های ضمنی ترکها بخاطر لهجه ای که در صحبت کردن زبانی که زبان مادریشان نیست (فارسی) بوده ام که مجبور هم نبوده اند بی لهجه صحبت کنند، مگر فارس ها ترکی را بی لهجه صحبت می کنند؟ اگر انگلیسی ها هم می خواستند برای لهجه فارس ها هنگامی که انگلیسی صحبت می کنند جک بسازند، به تصورم به همان اندازه، تحقیر آمیز و مضحک باید می بود. ضمن اینکه با این نظر شما که ترک های تهران هم این به اصطلاح لطیفه! ها را برای خودشان می سازند کاملا مخالفم، چنین حماقتی! هرگز نتواند بودن. این دایره تبعیض ها و تحقیر ها بسیار فراتر از آن جک های چند سطری ست و بر هر اندیشمندی معلوم است که چیست. هرچند که چون من ترک هستم هدف اخص ام را بر مبارزه بر علیه تبعیض نژادی اعمال شونده بر ترکها متمرکز کرده ام، اما با تبعیض بر علیه دیگر اقوام هم بطور اعم مخالفم. پان هم هرچه باشد بد است چه پان فارسیسم چه پان ترکیسم اما شصت هفتاد سال است که پان فارسیسم بیشتر می بندد و خفه می کند و له می کند در حالی که پان ترکیسم بر خلاف غوغاگری ها و کولی بازی هائی که فارسها بر علیه آن براه انداخته اند سالهاست که در موضع پسیو قرار دارد باضافه اینکه بعد از اینهمه تحقیر و تبعیض، خواهان استقلال سرزمین آذربایجان از ایران از سوی ترکها (و نه آنگونه که فارسها ما را آذری! مینامند) بودن، حتی اگر انگ پان ترکیسم هم بخورد، بر حق است. و نه تنها آن، که جدائی کردها و بلوچها و ترکمن ها و عرب ها و مازندرانی ها و گیلک ها... هم بر حق است .مدل یوگسلاوی برای تمام کسانی که دلشوره تمامیت ارضی ایران را ندارند خیلی هم خوبست. بگذارید این قوم ها با تکیه بر هویت قومی شان از ایران جدا شوند بعد اگر خیلی دلشان خواست! مثل اتحادیه اروپا ، اتحادیه ایران را تشکیل می دهند . اینطور باشد بد است؟ چرافارس ها از این می ترسند؟ اگر رفتارشان با دیگر اقوام خوب باشد که آنها داوطلبانه بر می گردند و اتحادیه ایران را تشکیل می دهند با حفظ هویت قومی و ملی شان. مثل جمهوری چک و اسلواکی که اول از هم جدا شدند و بعد هردو وارد اتحادیه اروپا شدند، تازه آنها که هردو اسلاو بودند و همنژاد ، ما که نه هم نژادیم و نه همزبان

Pournick (talk) 20:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes I found them, but just in the history!

Yeah dear, I found what you had said in the history of that province, but as you know and I saw you have lost that fight! like me! So what is the conclusion of this? for me it is:

فارسها, برخوردی فاشیستسی و شوونیستی با مسائل دیگر اقوام ایران دارند و متاسفانه این دیدگاه و طرز بر خورد در اکثریت! است. و بر من است که به مبارزه با این فاشیزم ادامه دهم و سکوت نکنم اگر شما نتیجه دیگری میگیرید

pls let me know.And a question, r u originally from those minor Georgian groups of Isfahan province? If u are, what have you done about that endangered language and culture?

Look at the boxes of these provinces. Indeed there are people with that mindset, but they are not all Fars,. For example one of those who made the most trouble for me was the user Azerbaijani or Haji Piruz who was Azeri. What have we done about the endangered languages? As I know there were classes with learning materials approved by the ministry of education. The initiatives are private. The content should be approved. But The general picture is that the Georgian language in Iran is disappearing because many people migrate to the big cities, and also because of intermarriages. For one or another reason marrying girls from other ethnic groups especially the Bakhtiari nomads has been widespread among Georgians. Nowadays only in Fereydan and fereydunshahr is Georgian spoken. All other Georgian communities in Iran have forgotten that language. As you have said that was not because of harassment but was the natural way of assimilation. Usually small groups assimilate easier. What we can do now is trying to preserve the hertige. We cannot force people to speak this language if they don't want to but we can at least facilitate the ways to learn it if they want and keep the records of it in archives. The Organization of cultural heritage does not put efforts in it but when there is particular initiative they help. Georgians in Iran have the bad luck that they are a small ethnic group. I remeber Georgians invited Mr. Inanlou of Iran jahani dar yeklmarz to make a reportage from georgians of Esfahan province. He, an Azeri from Ardabil, refused and said they are not important. He does not say such things about Azeris, Kurds or other larger ethnic groups!--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Khoy

What is the basis for your edits of 10:20, 15 February 2010 to the Khoy article? i.e. removing the section on the economy along with the citation, and removing the cyrillic and roman alphabetical expression of the Azeri name for the city. --Bejnar (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not know what are you talking about the economy. However the Cyrilic and latin alphabets are irrelevant. Since this city is located in Iran and the Azerbaijani language in Iran does not use Latin/ Cyrlic alphabets. Simple as that--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Look at this edit that you made [22] where you removed the entire /* Economy */ section including the citation. --Bejnar (talk) 19:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it was a mistake. since you reverted me again and put back the Latin and Cyrilic alphabets, I thought both edits were related because one could not be undone apparently without the other.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not revert you again, I made a new edit adding the cyrillic and the latin alphabets and removing the duplicative arabic which was exactly the same as for Farsi. I had not reverted you there before. If your edit was reverted previously, it was by someone else. Don't use undo unless you are intent on removing the entire edit, selectively edit. --Bejnar (talk) 15:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you do not get it. I said go and add anythig but Latin and Cyrlic alphabet. Ok?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

دوست عزیز

کسی نمیگوید اسکریپت لاتین برای زبان ترکی آذربایجانی در ایران استفاده می شود، مسئله این است که زبان ترکی آذربایجانی الان در دنیا و همینطوردرون ویکی آفیشالی، دو جور اسکریپت دارد. یوزرباکس بابل زبان آذری را ببینید Template:Lang az حتی تمام صفحات ویکی آذر بایجانی هم با دو اسکریپت نوشته میشود عربی و لاتین. حالا من نمیفهمم چرا شما قسمت لاتینش رادر مورد صفحات مربوط به آذربایجان ایرانی پاک میکنید؛ آخر این به ایرانی بودن آن پیج ربط ندارد که به زبان آذری ربط دارد. آذری ایران عربی نوشته میشود درست، اما آخر زبان آذری در ویکی دو رسم الخط دارد چرا نصف لاتینش را پاک میکنید نمی فهمم من کردی را ببینید بااسکریت لاتین نوشته میشود امروزه.رسم الخط رسمی اش لاتین شده ولی مگر کردهای ایران به خط لاتین مینویسند؟ رسم الخط رسمی، مربوط به زبان است، بخشی از زبان است، نه مربوط به حوزه جغرافیائی که آن قوم زندگی میکند مثلا اگر ایرانیان مقیم انگلیس فارسی را با حروف لاتین بنویسند بین خودشان آنوقت هر ایرانی مقیم آنجا که یک پیج در ویکی فارسی بخواهد باز کند باید آن پیج به زبان لاتین باشد چون در داخل مرزهای آن کشور حروف عربی استفاده نمیشود؟ آذر بایجانی های داخل مرزهای ایران از حروف عربی استفاده میکنند ولی زبان آذربایجانی فراتر از مرز بندی سیاسی است. شما یک روز اینور مرز هستید فردا یک اتفاقی میفتد میروید آنور مرز، اما زبان مسخره بازی های سیاسی نیست که، یک چیز فرهنگیست Pournick (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It is simple. We only put relevant names on the pages. Azeri names in latin alphabet is irrelevant in Iran. And the fact that Iran has not recognized the Latin script of the republic of Azerbaijan means that that Alphabet is not universally recognized as THE alphabet. The same way Latin based Persian "Unipers"has no such recognition. The Latin script of the republic of Azerbaijan was first proposed by Elchibey. He as a Panturk and wanted to bring Azerbaijan republic closer to Turkey at the expense of its Iranian legacy. Logical that that politically biased Alphabet change is not recognized by us. Having said that we had always proposed to include both Latin and Perso-Arabic alphabets for all Azerbaijani pages, but the editors from the republic of Azerbaijan have refused. They only want Latin script. This is strange because they also traditionally have used the perso-arabic alphabet before 1920s, while Latin alphabet in Iran is totally irrelevant. In order to have both scripts on ALL Azeri pages, means that the editors from the republic of Azerbaijan should accep[t that we put the historic Azerui alphabet on their pages! fair is Fair.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

آقای بابک خرمدین، زبان ترکی را که من در صفحات تهران و کرج گذاشته بودم امتحانی، تا به شما نشان دهم اوضاع از چه قرار است بلافاصله برداشتند، بروید خودتان ببینید. حالا هنوز هم معتقد هستید که پان ترکیسم همه جا را به گه کشیده و ظلم میکند و اقلیتهای زبانی را وادار میکند که از زبان خودشان دست بکشند! و پان فارسیسم هیچ کاری نمیکند جز محبت و باز هم محبت؟ بماند که آندفه یادم رفت بگویم که اگر پان ترکیسم انقدر قوی است یک فکری به زبان سی، سی پنج درصد جمعیت اذربایجانی ایران بکند که حق خواندن و نوشتن به زبان خود ندارند که هیچ حتی اسم مغازه ها را هم در تبریز اگر ترکی بذاری اخطاریه میگیری نمونه اش یک مغازه شیرینی فروشی بود که اسمش را گذاشته بود "باقلوای لذیذ ترک" ؛ گفتند خطرناک است! بیچاره کرد "باقلوای لذیذ اترک"! تازه این پان ترکیست ها فایننس این اقدامات ظالمانه شان نسبت به فارسها را از کجا می آورند؟ حتما دولت جمهوری اسلامی سهمی از در آمد نفت به این موضوع اختصاص داده وگرنه ایران که پول دیگری ندارد جز چاه هایش. حالا با آن زبان کردی شما در صفحه آذربایجان چکار کنیم به نظر شما؟دستتان را روی وجدانتان بگذارید و خودتان بگوئید واما جواب بالا... اینکه چون ایران الفبای لاتین آذری را رکوگنایز نکرده پس یونیور سالی این الفبای رکوگنایز نشده هم ادعای عجیبیست که پایه حقوقی نداردو نمیدانستم الفبای ملتی را دیگر ملتها باید رکوگنایز کنند تا مشروعیت پیدا کند! و قابل استفاده برای آن ملت شود. رکوگنایز کردن ایران اصلا محلی از اعراب ندارد. این یک موضوع داخلیست و از آن حرفها بود این به جان عزیزتان! شما ایرانی ها انقدر در پیچ و خم تاریخ آذربایجان گیر میکنید که واقعیت امروز این سرزمین را نمی بینید . به هر حال من صحبت از باکس آذربایجانی در بابل ویکی کرده بودم نه از رفیوز ادیتورهای جمهوری آذربایجان که مسئول اعمال خودشانند. انگار که چون آنها خط عربی را استفاده نمیکنند ما هم باید عوضش را در بیاوریم تا در لجبازی یوقت عقب نمانیم! من هم همان را گفتم بارها. الفبای لاتین در ایران نامربوط است ولی موضوع این است که این به ایران ربطی ندارد موضوعیست که به زبان آذربایجانی مربوط است و زبان خودش موجودی زنده و پویا ومستقل از مرزبندی های سیاسی به حساب می آید امروزه . مگر خط لاتین به کوردی مربوط است در ایران هم استفاده میشود یا دولت ایران رکوگنایز کرده که الان خط کوردی در ویکی لاتین است؟ نمیدانم من نمیتوانم بگویم یا شما تمایلی به فهمیدن ندارید. ضمن اینکه لاتین شدن الفبای آذربابجان اگر به ایلچی بیگ و پان ترکیسم و دشمنی با ایران ربط دارد، لاتین شدن الفبای ترکمنستان و ازبکستان که مشکلی با ایران ندارند به چه ربط دارد؟ یعنی شما فکر نمیکنید موضوع از این قرار بود که آقاجان حالا که الفبای ما را روسیه 80 سال پیش سریلیک کرده و حالا ما سه راه پیش رو داریم یا همان را ادامه دهیم (که قابل خواندن توسط مردم دنیا نیست! جز خودشان با ان آر های برعکسشان که معلوم نیست چه صدائی میدهد!. یا عربی کنیم یا لاتین و خوب حالا که آواشناسی ترکی به نگارش لاتین بیشتر میخورد تا حروف عربی به اضافه اینکه همه دنیا حروف لاتین را میتوانند بخوانند هر چند که معنی اش را نفهمند و ضمن اینکه عربی هم دیگر کلاس ندارد و دلیلی ندارد حالا که رویمان را بطرف غرب کرده ام دویست سالیست، دوباره برگردیم بطرف شرق کنیم که آب از آبش تکان نخورده در آن مدت؟ این "دشمن" انگاری نمیدانم از آقای خامنه ای به همه سرایت کره! یا اینکه ایرانی ها همیشه در طول تاریخ دیگر ملتها را دشمن میبینند ! من فکر میکنم که شما چون ایران را خیلی دوست دارید اصلا نمیخواهید که دو آذربایجان به هم نزدیکتر شوند حتی در خط! این قبول، ولی دیگر مارا خر فرض نکنید و اینقدرآسمان ریسمان نبافید انگار که پایه عرف بین المللی (قانونش پیشکش) دارند. بالاخره ما هم کتابهائی خوانده ایم و چیزهائی میدانیم ! مثل اینکه در ویکی قرار نیست عقل سلیم حکمفرما باشد. لج و لج بازی و زور چپانی است. از فیر ایز فیر شما که برداشت دیگری نتوانستم بکنم( باور کنید زور زدم ولی نشد (: فقط نمیفهمم چرا فارسها انقدر به اعمال نظر در تمام صفحات آذربایجان علاقه مندند ! پیشنهادی جز این ندارم که زور دهید شاید اسکریپت عربی را که خیلی هم وطنیست بزور وارد صفحات آنها کنید باری که از این جنگ! پیروز بیرون آئید و یا شهید شوید که مادرتان بتواند روغن حلبی بگیرد به خدا دنیا چند صباحی بیشتر نیست و دوستی تنها چیز بدرد بخور ما آدمهاست که همیشه فقط ادعای دموکراسی داریم Pournick (talk) 03:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Pournick, please be more polite and less bitter. It is not truue that every one is your enemy. As you see I agree with many of your ideas while I don't with many others. For example you saw I defended your map, but I cannot defend yiour deletion of picture of Sattar Khan etc... Any way About the Azerbaijan republic you are wrong. I am not affraid getting too close to them. In fact I really want that. I think Iran and the republic of Azerbaijan are two countries which are closest in terms of culture, religion, language, history etc... Time over time I had said that the republic of Azerbaijan is another Iranian country, without any one putting claims on their independence. Having said this, I do understand why editors from the republic of Azerbaijan act hostile. They are fed by the history that Russians were good to them and knowing their Iranian legacy they try to hide it. This is why they always react in panic against Iranians. This is why they get agressive when Iranians come too close to them. That is why they refuse to write down the historic Azerbaijani alphabet on their pages. But anyway there are many good editors from well too and we try to solve these issues. As I see the working relations between the editors from Iran and the republic of Azerbaijan is well and is getting better and better. Iranian editors laso many Azeris among them) are in majority in the English wikipedia, but in the Russian wikipedia ion the other hand the editors from the republic of Azerbaijan are in majority and they push their POV there. As you see we can push our POV in the English wikipedia, but we do not because we respect our consensus with them, but they do not do whenever they are in majority. But I guess this is not your or my main issues. Back to the Iranian pages. I have looked at the pages on Tehran and Karaj, I copuldnt find your edits please provide me with links. I again chacked the infobox on Tehran province and Azeri language was still there. I will revert everyone who messes up with those infoboxes, of whatever provice! I have had too much struggles against both PanTurks and Fars Chauvinists and I won't allow a few crazy people create problems for the overwhelming majority of peoples who are doing well.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

excuse me

ببخشید مزاحم شدم فقط می خواستم بگویم این کاربر ایرانی است. در ضمن اگر صفحه بحث تان را بایگانی بفرمایید بسیار نیکوتر می گردد. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.242.220.245 (talk) 09:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong. Although Alefbet might have had parrents from Iran, he isn't Iranian (anymore). Aghaye Pournick please do not edit out f anger. This will make you lose credit among other peoples here. Your actions will cause other extremists *for example the Fars chauvinists\) to retaliate. All these fights of the few will cost the peaceful majority dearly. Try to solve your problems with other editors peacefully or just agree to disagree. |You have been a sensible editor before but have become an extremist in afew days. I think you were an asset to wikipedia before all these happened. Please be constructive as in the past --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

ببخشید من دوباره مزاحم شدم ولی من پورنیک نیستم ایشون تبریز تشریف دارن آی پی من مربوط به تهرانه. در ضمن می خواستم نظرتون رو به این نوشته ها جلب کنم تا ببینید این دوست محترم تون چه توهین هایی رو که در حق دیگران نمی کنه —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.242.220.238 (talk) 06:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

آی پی 92.242.220.238 به شما مربوط نیست که من جواب بهتیس را چطور میدهم. شما همانی نیستی که با یک آیپی دیگه به من فحش دادی؟ انتظار داری ازت تشکر کنم؟ خب من همیشه جواب فحش را با فحش بیشتر میدهم تا طرف فکر نکند من زبانم برای فحش نمیتواند بچرخد و نقطه ضعف دارم. بهتیس پررو هم به من فحش داد من هم جوابش را گذاشتم کف دستش در تاک پیج فارسی اش و اونا رو پاک کرد من هم گذاشتم در تاک پیج انگلیسی اش. به شما چه 92.242.220.238 تو وکیل مردمی؟ نمیترسی چرا با آیپی زرزر میکنی با یوزر نیمت بیا تا جوابت را بدهم خاله زنک! signed bypournick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.197.116 (talk) 18:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

name of the cities

dear Babakexorramdin. I delete the other languages in page theran because I think tehran as a capital of iran must spell just in persian language. afterll it was not part of azeri or kurdish region like tabriz or kermanshah that we put those languages. most of these people immigrated to this city less than 50 years ago because of having a good life. but now most of their chidren speak persian as first language(for example myself). you can see pages like Istanbul that just spell in turkish language but it has more than 2 million kurds. so why they didn't put kurdish language for that or ankara. همچنین دوست عزیز من با شما و ویرایشتان آشنایی دارم و زمانی که حتی کاربر ویکی پدیا نشده بودم مکالمه و نظرات شما با دیگر کاربران را دیده ا و شکی در این نیست که از شما وطن پرستتر در میان کاربران فارسی ویکی وجود ندارد بلکه منظور من از این کار اظهار نظر در این گونه موارد بود با سپاس فراوان

Bahramm 2 (talk) 12:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

dear Babakexorramdin. I know about turkey but france is a place that democracy was born in there. by the way I still think that we should just put persian langugee at tehran page because some pan-turkists wants with this changes say that all of iran belong to them. به عبارت دیگر بهانه دست این پان ترکیست ها ندهید. با سپاس

Bahramm 2 (talk) 17:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong about France. France is a very fascistic country and indeed not a good example to follow. I do not get your statement about Panturkists. In any way all over Iran belongs to all Iranians.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 05:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

من هم فکر میکنم بهانه را نباید دست ترکهای وطن فروش داد حتما فهمیدید منظورم کیست

هرچه باشد پان ترکیسم از شوونیسم فارسی بهتر است که بی صر و صدا آدم ها را از هویتشان جدا میکند و آن هارا فارس میکند(مثل خود جناب بهرام 2 ) پان ترکیسم که فعلا فارسی را در ایران از هویتش جدا نکرده خیلی هم بی خطر تر از پان فارسیسم است چون پول سرشار نفت ندارد که آن هم مال عربهای بیچاره است که تصاحب کرده . پان ترکیسم خواهان احیای حقوق از دست رفته ترکهای ایران است نه تصاحب همه ایران به چه دردمان میخورد یه مشت بیابان برهوت! حال آنکه پان فارسیسم حقوق خودش را دارد که هیچ بلکه مشغول گرفتن حقوق دیگر قوم هاست و آنها را دارد روزبروز فارس تر میکند تا خطر! رارفع کند. والا من نمیدانم زورش به 25 میلیون ترک ایرانی (که آن را هم در آمار دولتی اش کرده دوازده میلیون!) میرسد یا خیر. آنهائی که سالهاست در طول تاریخ، جانشان را فدای وطنی کرده اند که الان به آنها حق تحصیل به زبان مادریشان را هم نمیدهد حقی که حتی اسرائیل هم به اعراب مقیم اسرائیل داده است! چه مبارک است این شوونیسم فارسی!

دوم اسفند روز جهانی زبان مادری مبارکباد، به امید روزی که بتوانم در میهنم! به زبان مادری ام (ترکی) بخوانم و بنویسم

signed bypournick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.197.116 (talk) 19:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Chand nokte: avallan ma ba shoma movafegham ke be hame ye zabanhaye Iran bayad baha dad. Agar yek Azeri ya Kurd zabanesho az dast dad dalil nemishe ke hame bayad inkaro bokonand. besyari az zanbanhaye Iran, az jomle zabanhaye Irane markazi dar hale nabudiand o yek edde eyne khialeshun nist. Amma shoma darbare ye amare dowlati eshtebah mikonid. Dar Iran hich amare aghvam vojud nadarad. aslan ham mohem nist ke yek zaban bozorg ya kuchek bashe. hame ye zabnahaye ghowmiye Iran arzeshmand hastand. darzemn Iran faghat kavire barahut nist balke yek kalankeshvare ba estedad ast va bi shak ghule farhangi ye tamame mantaghe ast. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

::: Pournick man fars nistam amma tamaiate arzie Iran baram mohemme, Aslan che rabti dare? Mage Iran faghat male Farsast? Inke esme Iran ya akse Sattar khan ra pak mikonid shomara unpopular mikone. na faghat beyne fars balke beyne bishtare Iraniha. Man ke be naghshe ye shoma movafegham, amma shoma hatta ba man ham moshkel darid. bebin pournick az man Paniranisttar vojud nadare. Zamani ke in fars chauvinista tyu disccohaye Orupa raghasbazi dar miavordand ma migoftim ke be zabanhaye ghowmiye Iran baha dahid. Shoma lotfan ahdafe pake paniranism ro ba bache tehraniha o fars chauvinista ghati nakonid. Inra dar safhe ye shoma niz minevsiam.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

در حقیقت ایران مال فارس ها نیست بلکه متعلق به همه ماست ولی می بینیم که فعلا پول دست فارس هاست و دارند بقیه اقوام را له میکنند من خودم هیچ مشکلی با فارسها یا زبانشان ندارم اتفاقا خودم دو زبانه هستم و زبان فارسی هم زبان دلنوازی است مخصوصا در شعر .ولی اصلا و ابدا تحمل فارسهای شوونیست را ندارم و هر وقت آنها را در تهران می بینم که دارند جک میگویند و یا دیگر خزعبلاتشان را ، عمدا با صدای بلند ترکی صحبت میکنم که بفهمند دنیا دست کیست!

همین بهرام 2 را ببینید نقشه غلط را اصلاح کردم طبق رفرنس! به من تهمت وندالیزم! زد و مرا بلوکه کرد! این است شوونیسم فارسی ؛ خفه کردن صدای مخالف! کاری که شصت سال است در ایران دارند می کنند، حالا که ارتش سایبری! هم باز کرده اند آمده اند به خفه کردن صداهای اینترنت هم رسیدگی کنند

signed by pournick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.197.116 (talk) 19:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

moshkele naghshe ine ke own work ast va tebghe ghavanine wikipedia moshkel dare. dar wikipedia faghat mishe naghshehaye amade az manabee motabaro avord. In yeki az mozalate wikipediast. Shoma dar tehran zendegi mikonid?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC) darzemn ba shoma movafegh nistam. Dar Iran ghodrat va servat hamishe bishtar dar daste torkzabanane bude o hast makhsusan azeriha. nesbat be aghvame Irane markazi o jonubi, yani az esfehan be Pain zolme faravan rava rafte. Be ostane Fars bishtar az ostanhaye Azeri zaban zolm rafte. hanuz ham mibinid ke bishtare bozorgane eghtesadi o siasi dar iran azeri hastand. Hatta dar tehran ham bishtare bazariha o puldarha azari hastand. Farsha be hich gune ghowme bartar nistand dar Iran. Be aghide ye man be Balucha o Korda bishtarin ejhaf shode, amma az tarafe dige una ziad alaghei be Iran ham nadarand.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

بابا نقشه قبلی هم اون وورک بود همون مال یوزر سیامک یا پرسیا 2099 من نقشه رفرنسم را که مال یونی تگزاس بود؛ خودش را خواهم گذاشت جای همون نقشه قلابی ببین حتی اگه به اونهم زر زر نکردن اینا .رفرنس را بهانه میکنن .نقشه قبلی هم کار خود اون پسره بود ولی باهاش هیچ مشکلی نداشتن چون کلی جاهارو داده بود به فارس ها و کردها. من هم در تهران خانه دارم هم در تبریز ، هر وقت حوصلم از تبریز سر میره! میرم تهران و بالعکس تازه میگی قدرت دست ترکهاست؟ بی زحمت بگو حق تحصیل من ترک زبان رو بهم بدن اگه آشنا ماشنا داری بینشون اینکه بازاری ها و پولدارها ترک هستند عرضه خودشون بوده ، به من بگوئید دولت دست کیست؟ زبان رسمی چیست؟ صدا و سیما دست کیست؟ چرا با تاجیکستان انقدر جون جونی هستند ولی با ترکمنستان یا آذربایجان نیستند؟ حتی میگویند به ارمنستان کمک نظامی میکنند تا ّباآذربایجان بجنگد!. این کارها را پولدارهای بازار تهران میکنند؟ یا دولت فارس فاشیست ایران؟ بعلاوه اینکه موافقم استانهای جنوبی هیچ چی ندارند چون دستشان در دولت نیست. تازه ترکها که در دولت هستند مگر بدون اجازه فارسها کاری می توانند بکنند؟ روزنامه رسمی دولت کاریکاتور کشید ترک ها را سوسک کرد! به خیالش، بعد هم گفتند بابا مانا نیستانی آذری الاصل است احتمالا آذری الاصلی مثل همین بهرام 2 که با نقشه قبلی موافق بود! تازه من با شما مشکلی ندارم شما میگی ما آذری هستیم من هم میگم نخیرم، ترکیم! شما میگی تمامیت ارضی ایران، من هم میگم اگه همه حق یکسانی داشته باشیم موافق یک ایران فدرال هستم وگرنه اگه قراره همش ظلم ببینم گور پدر ایران این چه وطنیست که ما را باید مسخره و توهین کنند و بگویند ترک خر؟ میخوام صد سال سیاه! نباشه این وطن signed by pournick188.158.197.116 (talk) 20:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC) Un naghshe ke Persia folan folan sakhte bud revert shod. age shoma naghshe ye Uni Texas ro bezarid anha shayad bahane begirand amma harfe mohkami nadarand. Pas shoma khodetan puldarid ke dota khane darid. Masle uye Tajikistan o Armanestan barmigarde be dusti ba Rusiye. Iran alan shode nowkare halghe be gushe Rusiye. tajikestan o Armanestan ham hastand. Pas ina baham duatand. Alan ham ke Aliyev ba Rusiye kheili close shode Iran o jomhuri ye Azarbaijan ham baham behtar shodand. Badesh inke Torkamanestan az hamun avval duste Iran bud ba inke kollan keshvare isolationiste. man harfe moft nemizanam, reshte ye karie man dar hamin zamine ast. Man fekr mikonam ke in fars chauvinitsa ya behtar begam Azarihaye tehrani shode be manafe zheopolitiki ye Iran darand zarbe mizanand. Inha shahyad betunand yek Irane homogenous mesle Torkiye ye ataturk ya faranse dorost konand, amma dar howze ye farhnagiye Irane bozorg ke bishtar fars nistand va shie nistand darmimamnand. Banabarin ma Paniranistha az ishan bademan miayed. Man fekr mikmonam shoma dar Paniranism be bishtare maghasede khod ke ehyaye hoghughe aghvame Iranist dar charchube Irane salem va ghavi dar mantagehe, dast khahid yaft.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

والا آذری(در واقع ترک!) های تهرانی شده ممکن است خودفروش شده و نوکری فارسهای شوونیست را بکنند ولی من فکر نمیکنم که دراتاق فکر و تصمیمگیری فارسهای شوونیست راهی داشته باشند وگرنه ما انقدر بدبخت نمی شدیم به حدی که در تاریخ پر افتخار ترکها بی سابقه است. ضمنا علی اف از ترس این با روسها نزدیک شده که روسها بخشی از آذربایجان رو هم مثل گرجستان یه لقمه چپ نکنند! همین فارسها فاشیست هم چقدر اینکار را ستودند چون ظاهرا "اوستی ها" هم نژادشان بوده اند! و گرجی ها جزو اونیکی ها مثل ترکها! اما ترکیه آتاترک هم هموجنس نبود اتفاقا بر خلاف تبلیغات فارس ها این آتا ترک نبود که به کردها گفت شما کرد نیستید ترک هستید همونطوری که شما به من میگید ترک نیستم آذری هستم (; اسلاف آتاترک بعد از عصمت این اونو بودند که همچین سیاست غلطی پیش گرفتند و چوبش را هم دارند با پ کا کا میخورند. فارسها هم به سرنوشت مشابهی دچار خواهند شد منتها ترکها مثل کردها نمیروند در کوه درگیری مسلحانه راه بیندازند چون خوشبختانه ترکها هم پول دارند هم پشتیبان. مخصوصا با وضع انزوای بین المللی ایران امروز که برای تمامیت ارضی اش هم بسیار خطرناک است. تازه شما چون فارس نیستید کمی به من حق میدهید میدانید من چقدر از آن آیپی های فارسهای شوونیست فحش میخورم آنها میگویند آره میگویم ترک خر خوب هم میکنم حقت است چون واقعا هم خری! بعد که من از کوره در میروم و جوابشان را میدهم بخاطر چند تا حرف مثل ..یه مال, من را به فحاشی متهم و می بندند(به ...م!) .در ویکی فارسی بستند بعد آمدند در ویکی انگلیسی هم بستند آخر کدام مدیر عاقلی بخاطر آپلود کردن یک نقشه(حتی اگر غلط بود) آدم را یک ماه میبندد؟ به جرم اینکه حرف زدی . معلوم نیست این بهرام2 همان الفبه چی زیر گوش اونا خوندن اونا هم که از هیچ چی خبر ندارن فقط بلدن مدیریت کنن!. تا باز شدم بلافاصله همون مپ رو آپ میکنم و دهن اون بهرامو سرویس! (بخاطر این سرویس یه سال دیگه بلوک ام!. یکیشون هم نشسته انگار حرفای منو بهشون ترجمه میکنه ده تام میذاره روش!) به جرم فارسی نوشتن در ویکی انگلیسی هم بلوکم کرده یکی از جرام هم اینه! میدونی این ویکی داره دیگه شورش در میاد . مدیره بلوکه میکنه بدون اینکه تفتیش درست و حسابی بکنه مثلا همین بهرام 2 چه ادیت هائی میکنه؟ همش نشسته تا یکی چیزی مینویسه که خوشش نمیاد آندید کنه .کاره دیگه ای بلد نیست ولی من پامیشم میرم عکس میگیرم با هزار زحمت میارم میذارم تو صفحه بی عکس بی کیفیت تبریز!. حقم بود بلوکه شم اصن خوب شد، ضمنا خانه در تهران اجاره ایست ! پولدار بودم الان تو هاوائی بودم نه اینکه وقتمو با این فاشیستا تلف کنم pournick188.158.197.116 (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

my answer to pournick

اول از همه اینکه ارومیه در اصل شهر کردها بوده نه ترکها و در زمان شاه اسماعیل و شاه عباس تعداد زیادی از اونها را به شمال خراسان کوچ دادند.که بعد ترکها اومدند به تدریج اونجا ساکن شدند بعدش مهمان شد صاحبخانه. من خودم نصف کرد و نصف آذری (یا همان به قول شما ترکم) و هیچ نسبت فامیلی با فارس ها ندارم. شما که به همه منبع هایی که من به شما دادم ایراد می گیری. از بین اون همه هم رفتید این[23] نقشه که مربوط به سال 1982 میلادی هست رو گرفتی به عنوان منبع بعدش این یکی [24] که متعلق به سال 2004 میلادی هست را بیخیال شدید. در ضمن بگذارید بگم که در دانشگاههای آمریکا برخلاف ایران پیشرفت می کنند نه پسرفت.یعنی نقشه سال2004 موثقتر از قبلی ها هستش.

جواب پورنیک به بهرام 2-

حدس می زدم چرا از نقشه قبلی انقدر خوشت آمده چون تو در واقع ترک نیستی کرد هستی و نقشه قبلی کلی به کردها لطف کرده بود واقعا که! ویکی را مسخره احساسات شوونیستی ات کرده ای .ان یوزر باکس آذربایجان در صفحه کاربیت هم یک حیله است برای نفوذ کردن! به به ، به به چشمامون روشن یه حرف بی مدرک دیگه؟ پس اورمیه کرد بوده؟ به به و تازه اگر درست باشه پس نتیجه بگیریم که باید بریم نقشه قومی زمان قبل از شاه اسمائیل را بذاریم اینجا چقدر جالب و در عین حال مضحک!

ضمنا آن نقشه متعلق به سال 2004 میلادی نیست سیامک 2004 زده مگر دانشگاه تگزاس بعد از انقلاب مراودهای با ایران داشته که سال 2004 نقشه جدید چاپ کند؟. جالب اینکه هیچ صحبتی از اینکه همان نقشه را هم دخل تصرف کرده بود توش به میان نمیآری با وجود چچند بار پرسیدنم چون جوابی نداری و باید پشت آسمان ریسمان بافتن هایت پنهان شوی! تازه تو فکر میکنی ترکیب جمعیتی یک کشور در همچین مدت کوتاهی حدود 20 سال انقدر عوض میشه(:؟ معلوم است هیچ چیزی نمیدانی . چطور است بگوئیم نقشه دوم در اثر تحقیقات ناقص و غلط پابلیش شده ؟ این به نظر خیلی منطقی تر است. برای انانکه گوش شنوا دارند و چشم بینا! حداقل مردم خوی و اورمیه و سلماس بهتر از شما میدانند که ترک هستند یا کرد. جالب آنکه صفحات انگلیسی و حتی !فارسی همین شهرها هم همین را می گویند، فقط نمیدانم چرا نقشه مورد حمایت بهرام 2 چیز دیگری میگوید 188.158.197.116 (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

راستی شما میگفتی که این آی پی188.158.193.106 نیستی بهتره یک نگاهی به اینجا [25] بکنید که با همین آی پی در ویکی فارسی می گویید که من پورنیکم.

جواب پورنیک-

کی گفت من اون آی پی نیستم؟ من اون 92.242.220.238 رو گفتم سواد فارسی که داری? یا اونوهم نداری! و اومدی اینجا تازه داری دانشنامه می نویسی با اعتماد به نفس که در واقع چیزی هم نمینویسی فقط کارهای دیگران را آندید میکنی

دارم مطمئن میشوم تو همانی هستی که با آن آی پی به من فحش های رکیک دادی و صد البته جواب درخوری هم گرفتی! برایت متاسفم که ادعا میکنی ترک آذربایجان هستی ، نه نه، در واقع برای خودم و ترکهای آذربایجان پر افتخار متاسفم 188.158.197.116 (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

25 میلیون ترک؟ شما که از من بابت هر حرفم مدرک میخوای واسه من مدرک بیار دیگه.

جواب پورنیک-

اگه جمهوری اسلامی متقلب در انتخابات! آرشیو ها ی دولتی رو باز کرد همه چیز معلومت میشه! تازه چیه چرا ناراحت شدی؟ بهت برخورد همنژادات انقدر باشن؟ 188.158.197.116 (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

در ضمن من در ویکی انگلیسی قدرتی ندارم که شما رو قطع دسترسی کنم این اعمال خودتون بود که منجر به بستن یک ماهتون در ویکی انگلیسی شد.در آخر هر جور که دوست دارین در مورد من فکر کن بگین من شونیست هستم دروغگویم یا هرچیز دیگر چون از کاربری چون شما بیش از این انتظاری نیست. با سپاس

Bahramm 2 (talk) 21:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

جواب پورنیک-

قدرت خاصی نمیخواد! یه کم ....های مدیران را مالاندن میخواد که کردی، یک مدیر انگلیسی به من می گوید که من فلان چیز ها گفته ام در ویکیفا ، خب لابد تو ترجمه شان کردی با پیاز داغ اضافه! 188.158.197.116 (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I have a proposal: let's make a new map. In its discussion page we will mention a lot of sources to back it up. Then we will reach a consensus and will make the map available as free and in public domain. I think it is acceptable to wikipedia's rule. Another thing. Khorasani's Kurds are originally from Anatolia. It is well -researched. They are those Shiite Kurds who were loyal to safavids and Iranian Kings gave them place in khorasan in order to fight afghans, Uzbeks, Turkmens and other hostile and disloyal Sunni people. You should also know that originally non-Urban places inWestern part of west Azerbaijan was Kurdish. Kurds did not live in the cities in the past. Afterall It is not an important issue. You can make the disputed places in western Azerbaijan as striped area. The fact is however, hat Sunni Kurds, similar to Baluchis have a plan to conquer adjacent areas. They have a higher natural increase and apparently get funded by Saudi arabia or other wahhabite/ Sunni organizations. They settle in the Shiite town, grow in number and terrorize its population until they leave. Then they call it Kurdistan or baluchistan. They have done this in sistan, parts of Kerman, Luristan, hamadan and West Azerbaijan. these are facts. they do these things in a calculated manner in order to get more lands when the separate from Iran. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

به هر حال من دست بردار نیستم تا مپ درستی که تمام مناطق ترک نشین ایران اعم از کل آذربایجان و ترکمن صحرا و ایل های قشقائی و افشار و قاجار و قره گوزلو و بهارلو و... را بدرستی نشان ندهد دست نخواهم کشید بعلاوه اینکه به همه اقوام دیگر هم احترام قائلم به شرط اینکه حقایق را لگد مال نکنند و زیاده خواهی نکنند اگر ارومیه و خوی و باقی شهر های آذربایجان ترک هستند در نقشه باید کاملا مشخص باشد که ترکند. لازم باشد میروم موسسه گیتاشناسی به پول خودم نقشه درست را چاپ میکنم میارم میذارم اینجا والسلام! signed by pournick188.158.197.116 (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

نگاهی هم به اول صفحه کاربر

User:Bahramm 2

بیندازید ببینید در حقش چه نوشته اند . ظاهرا خودش مشهور به وندالیزم است آنوقت درخواست بستن مرا داده!

"Most of your edits appear to be reverting a single user, and you haven't justified a single one of these reverts"..."This behavior is stalking and possibly vandalism. Do not continue to remove information without giving an edit summary, or you may be blocked."... 188.158.197.116 (talk) 23:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

indeed a map by Gitashenasi would be a good idea. Please do not bring in Bejnar (I think he is from Afghanistan), into the inter-Iranian map issue.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Persian People

Hi, I'm not an editor here but when i saw how some people (mostly the user called alefbe it seems) have turned the Persian people article into a lie, i searched for Iranian editors to see if there are still any left? I can't see your contribution page but if your still editing here please do something about that page. They made it look like ethnic Persians do not exist. IMO this is probably the work of an Afghan nationalist or Kurd separatist, but maybe you already know about that page and cannot edit it because the admins locked it?

It counts 13 million afghans as Persians and cites CIA fact book as the source, which has no mention whatsoever about that.

Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The editor Alefbe has an agenda. His edits seem reasonable at many times. Yet he subtly tries to push his POV in many cases. I am not aware hwat his actions were in this particular case. As I know we do have an article on the Persian speakers of Iran as an ethnic group.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Persian Chauvenism and Newroz

Newroz belongs to nations and has nothing to do with legendary greater iran and such basless labels. Don't monopolize the article in your own favour. When I read this article that is full of baseless allegations by persians I get a nausea. Wiki is not a place for chauvinism. Do you have any proof that Kurds and Azeris call themselves Iranian--78.39.225.187 (talk) 08:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

See please the demographics of Iran or the page {{Iranian Azeris]].--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

119.73.12.45

Salam dobare. This user here: 119.73.12.45 "a pashtun" apparently and with similar ip's goes around and edits iranian related articles and fills them with his POV, like this one: "Hotaki dynasty". He also goes around in the same articles talk pages and says he wanna talk about iranian women selling themselves, as you can see in iran talk page and i think in greater iran template talk page. I think its the user named NisarKand who got banned if im not mistaken.

Another thing i want to point out is that i was reading the Babak Khoramdin article and i saw the user Tajik had replaced birth place of Babak from Iran to greater iran, he probably has done the same thing all over the iranian articles. What hes trying to do is to show that the modern day Iran is not the same Iran of 1000 years ago or even 500 years ago and the history of iran begins with ghajar dynasty. And its people not the same people. 82.209.159.184 (talk) 15:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Please explain your edits

You have added a block quote that is peripheral to the topic 1953 Iranian coup and introduced error by changing the date of an election from 1952 to 1951.

This[26] was your edit.

Please explain your basis for doing this. Thank you. Skywriter (talk) 17:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

1953 Iranian coup d'état

If your involvement at the article 1953 Iranian coup d'état is merely to revert other people's edits, with no corresponding discussion on the talk page, your participation will be viewed as trivial and reverted out of hand. The page is full of contentious issues, and editors are discussing changes to improve the article. To make your participation stick, you will need to take part in discussions on the talk page: Talk:1953 Iranian coup d'état. See you there! Binksternet (talk) 23:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I mentioned the rationale behind the edits.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You mean in the edit summaries? The first one had this edit summary: "undue weight and thus a biased representation of the whole story". The second one had this edit summary: "for your attention I'm involved now! what a lame excuse".

That second one has no rationale at all, but the first one was completely inadequate to describe the changes made to the article. Your edit summary mentioned "undue weight" but your edit did the following:

• Took out the sentence "This proved unacceptable to Britain and the Foreign Office began planning for his overthrow" which was backed by a reference to Gasiorowski, and replaced it with this unreferenced sentence: "Against the recommendation of the United States, Britain refused this proposal and began planning to undermine and overthrow Iran's first democratically elected government."
• Added a "citation needed" tag directly following a citation to Kinzer's All the Shah's Men.
• Replaced a summary paragraph dotted with short quotes with a long quote from one author, Kinzer, a practice recommended against at Wikipedia:Quotations#Overusing quotations and Wikipedia:Quotations#When not to use quotations.
• Took out any mention of the Consultative Assembly of Iran.
• Took out any mention of "July 1952 Mosaddegh resigned after the Shah refused to accept his nomination for War Minister".
• Took out any mention of emergency powers.

None of these changes are mentioned in your rationale—all of them are from the previous editor. I do not think that your reversion of my edit was measured, considered or adequately explained by the edit summary. It appears to me to be a simple knee-jerk reversion in support of a friend. Please read WP:MEATPUPPET for a description of why this is not good Wikipedia practice. Such reversions are edit warring and may result in you being blocked. Please stop. Binksternet (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Distortion

Hi. Could you please remove the fictitious term "A...... Gulf" from Bahrain (Culture)? Since, that "name" is not in line with WP:NCGN, it should be removed immediately. Thanks! 84.23.140.26 (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC) ......sure--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom notice: 1953 Iranian coup POV

You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#1953 Iranian coup POV and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Binksternet (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Outing

Re this edit, that threat would breach WP:OUTING if carried out. Do not make such a threat again or you will be blocked. Mjroots (talk) 05:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You have been blocked from editing for a period of Indefinite for attempting to harass other users. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text {{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Mjroots (talk) 11:22, 9 May --Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)2010 (UTC)

Dear Mjroots. Your decision came as a shock to me and I really feel disrespected. I have a busy life and all these rules and restrictions you ask me to do are very stressful to me. You should at least bring sound reasons and evidences before banning me. And why indefinitly. It seems to me that you are biased against me. If you see my edits they are usally orientaed towards maintaining the concensus or mediating between different views. I deliberately revert the POV-pushers who break the cionsensus. You better had warned or banned these "pushers" very often resembling the Vandalists, who operate with many accounts and sockpoppets. I thought people with sockpoppets should be banned by the rules of Wikipedia. Why didn't you investigate this issue and banned me. This is very amazing. I hope you are gentle enough to respond these questions or lift this unjust ban. And why is the signature option not working?

>>>Mjroots, would you please be nice enough to answer me? -----

Wow another Iranian editor banned by the power hungry abusive admins which blatantly let the sock-puppets do as they like as long as it benefit themselves. Wikipedia should be brought down/sued. Its nothing than mirrors of peoples POV and agendas. It generates noise not knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 (talk) 18:00, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Take your legal threats elsewhere. If you can't follow simple guidelines that are given, then you should not be editing. I fully support this block; WP:OUTING is a very serious issue. Seeing as this user wanted a response from the admin, but did not receive one, I have notified the admin. warrior4321 06:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

well since you have had your personnal grudges against me, I do not think I have to answer your allegations. thanks any way for notifying them.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I was replying to the IP user, not you. I don't have any personal grudges against you, but it seems that you do. warrior4321 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not hold personal grudges against anyone. Even not against those who have against me, for example Mani1. I do say, howeverm, that sockpoppets (Shayan7= Pejman) should be banned and the POV pushers (e.g alefbe and Man1i)should be put on their place. It is a tasteless joke that they ignored such gross abuses by these guys and banned me instead foir no reason. It is just embaressing for wikipedia.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Babakexorramdin, the reason that this unblock request has gone unnoticed is because you haven't used the template in the block notice. Using that template places your request into a category for unblock requests which will be monitored by admins.

Indefinite does not mean "forever", it means "without a set time limit". Should you demonstrate that you understand why the block was imposed, and undertake not to repeat such actions and familiarise yourself with WP:HA, WP:OUTING and WP:NPA, there is no reason that an unblock request cannot be granted an I have no objection to any admin lifting the block once a suitable request has been made. However, should the behaviour be repeated, then you can expect a re-imposition of the block and will also find admins are less likely to unblock in the future. Mjroots (talk) 06:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this action was unjust. I know what is outing. But none of the things I did is outing. On the other hand the sockpuppet is goping freely. It is not just. Any way.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I note that you still haven't used the unblock template to request an unblock. I've therefore raised the issue of whether or not you should be unblocked at WP:ANI#User:Babakexorramdin so that other admins may express their opinions on whether or not you should be unblocked, or whether or not you will have to file an unblock request using the template provided for that purpose. I've mentioned that you express concerns about a sockfarm, and it may be that other editors will look into that issue separately. Mjroots (talk) 10:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussion about possible WP:SOCK by another user is a mere red herring at this point, even if it's valid. If you have read the guide to appealing blocks, you will know that the focus is on your own activities and behaviour. Attempted WP:OUTING is extremely serious. This has nothing to do with you being of Iranian descent, it has to do with your behaviour overall. Address the issues about you and not about others. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:38, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

We're not saying that you can't ever be unblocked. You must use the template provided and address the issues of why you were blocked, which was WP:OUTING following a clear warning not to do so after making a threat to out an editor. As Bwilkins says, this is nothing to do with nationality. I would have blocked any editor for the same reason, regareless of their nationality. Using the template provided will put your request to be unblocked into Category:Requests for unblock, where it will be seen by admins and one will consider your request. Mjroots (talk) 10:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not know why you have brought in the nationality issue? I do not think I said anything about that! On outing: I stand by my statement: There was no issue of outing at stake. I did not threaten anyone and will not do. By the way even after your warning I did not do anything more. Your ban is unjust and I am seriously offended by it. It was a bad decision in the history of wikipedia because I did not threaten anyone and did not even want. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Moreover if may I add regarding sockpoppetry: This is not very reasonable at all. The reason you banned me was because I was complaning about sock poppetry by a certain user. Now you are telling me that complaining thereabout is out of the question. By this you are taking away from me any rationale to appeal gainst this unjust decision. One more Time I add: there was no attempt at outing by me. I WAS THE PERSON WHO WAS COMPLAINING!!!!!!!!

--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Babakexorramdin (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

As you could read in my talk argument I do not think I harassed other people, and there was certainly no outing, nor do I ever want to do those things. I. nevertheless, will urge the moderators to take charge of sock-poppets. So I request you, by this officially, to unblock me so I can go on with my constructive editions. I see that the quality of many of the pages on which I had worked have been deteriorated since I leaft Wikipedia. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Your explanation below is inconsistent with the wording of your edit summary at [27]: "Do not make me to reveal your identity!". This cannot be understood to mean "Do not make me tell others about your ideology" or similar.  Sandstein  16:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

It would help tremendously if you could explain your edit summary here, which appears to be a clear threat. As you have repeatedly claimed you've not done what that edit summary shows, I'm not sure your unblock reason makes sense as written. Kuru (talk) 14:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

By revealing his identity I did not meant to mention his name. i do not know his name. He pretends to be a patriotic Iranian, but he is not. I meant to say I would show his true colors. His ideology. I was too patient on him. he also harasses me in Fa.wiki )Persian Wikipedia) and proudly says he is a nationalist Iranian, but he is not. This is not outing, sorry. I am not much in to outing and things like this. And by the way i did not say that to him again when I was warned. why did I get blocked , without having done anything moer? It is unfair. Honestly I am offended and wanted to leave Wikipedia forever, but I see now that quality of a many articles are deteriorating and I think I can help a bit. That's why I finally appealed.Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Babakexorramdin (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

I do not agree. 1- I do not know Alefbe's name and 2- I do not think it is very interesting for me or other users to know it. 3- His ideology and political affiliation is. Secondly no one has ever given me a sound reason for my abrupt ban after the first warning, when i did not do anything therefare. All and all I think there is a lobby here to ban me, and my abrupt band was due to this and not due to any other reason. I have not read any convincing reason that I have outed or harassed any one. Go ask from friend and foe if they want me to be unblocked or not and decide therafter

Decline reason:

I am declining your request for unblock because it does not address the reason for your block, or because it is inadequate for other reasons. To be unblocked, you must convince the reviewing administrator(s) that

• the block is not necessary to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, or
• the block is no longer necessary because you
  1. understand what you have been blocked for,
  2. will not continue to cause damage or disruption, and
  3. will make useful contributions instead.

Please read our guide to appealing blocks for more information. Conspiracy theories and dissatisfaction with the reasons given for your block are not, in of themselves, reasons for an unblock. - Vianello (Talk) 20:29, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Ateshgah of Baku

Hello, you made major contribution to this article, so your advise is welcome here. Neftchi (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)