Talk:False memory syndrome

Why has the list of subjects that are commonly "recovered" as "memories" been removed? I guess it's too awkward for a proponent... --- Uncovering Hidden Memories, a number of techniques used by different brands of therapists, is thought by psychologists to be actually planting false memories. Among the things people allegedly remember in such therapies are:

• Sexual abuse
• Satanic ritual abuse
• Alien abduction
• Reincarnation
• Multiple personality disorder

--- On seeing that list, one either has to accept that

• all those things are real, or that
• the techniques used are not a reliable tool for finding the truth.
• (Is there a third possibility? I can't think of one. Can you?)

So, once you know what you can do with Recovered Memory Therapy, you will recognize that it's unreliable, unless you are really really gullible. I guess this is why 67.164.203.46 wants to hide that information.

This page has turned into a Recovered Memories Advocacy Page - the unconvenient information is gone and was repaced by a lot of "you can't prove me wrong" weasel talk.

Absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence. (As opposed to absence of proof, which is not proof of absence.) As far as I know, there has never been a case where someone has regained memories that are truly and evidently memories of real events. But thousands of people have had their memories recovered! One should expect that at least a few of them found real evidence of the things they remembered. Hob 20:45, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

a view on Hob's objections

I believe I can explain some of the thinking behind 67.164.203.46's recent changes to this entry. Hob listed many objections which touch on several of the hot points in the debate over false memory and false memory syndrome, and I feel like this should be discussed now before any editing or flame wars start.

I agree with Hob's concern over information being taken out of the entry, but I agree more with the intent it seems 67.164.203.46 had in making the edits. The section was entitled "Uncovering Hidden Memories." A new term "hidden memories" was introduced to the entry, but not explained. It then mentioned "a number of techniques" which were not mentioned nor explained. Also, which brands of therapists were being referenced? It then pits therapists against psychologists when stating that psychologists believe the unreferenced techniques of the unreferenced therapists cause memories to be implanted. I agree with 67.164.203.46 in editing out this whole part because it was grossly underwritten. I agree with Hob that the treatment methods should be included. But I would rather have the relevant information included properly, especially when it gets to this controversial stuff.

I have read a lot about this, and have experience with it. But I know that there are many many other who can do a better job at fleshing out this topic fairly. But, as it gets written, I want to see what I like in other trustworthy Wikipedia entries - flatly presenting the issues of the topic.

Hob was upset with the list of things people have remembered from the unreferenced therapy techniques. I don't think anything like that should be included unless the various treatments are mentioned and explained appropriately as they relate to the entry of false memory. Hob then went on to try to convice readers of his point of view. I sincerely hope that the discussion and editing is not geared in this manner. Rather, everyone should focus on what the issues are, what knowledge currently exists in the professional knowledge of the subject, and what should be included. I personally think that "false memory" should be separate from "false memory syndrome" because the current science of memory explains why false memories happen, and the entry should center around the issues of memory and the dynamic assimilation of information that creates our memories and processes which contribute to the correct of incorrect formation of memories. I appreciate 67.164.203.46's inclusion of ideas like rehearsal, short-, and long-term memory because I feel this should be the main direction of this entry. False memory syndrome is a vastly different topic, and rather multifaceted. The issue of treatment should be discussed, psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, etc. And the realities of the two sides - that people really do have traumatic experiences and forget that they happened, and that false memories also do happen.

I think it's entirely possible to get this right. I really love Wikipedia and think the world deserves information, not bias. Oh, and Hob, you can add me as the first person you know that has had a recovered memory confirmed by external sources, "real evidence" as you put it. Nice to meet you. --08:18, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)gnureality

Whoops - I didn't respond to that back then! My answer to the last sentence: I do not know you, and for me this is just unconfirmed information that may be true or not. --Hob Gadling 18:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Elizabeth Loftus mentions an example of a recovered memory that is confirmed by external sources. "Claims of corroborated repressed memories occasionally appear in the published literature. For example, Mack (1980) reported on a 1955 case involving a 27-year-old borderline man who, during therapy, recovered memories of witnessing his mother attempting to kill herself by hanging. The man's father later confirmed that the mother had attempted suicide several times and that the son had witnessed one attempt when he was 3 years old. The father's confirmation apparently led to a relief of symptoms in the son."

Maybe an example of recovered memories being confirmed as correct should be included in the article somewhere. --MaxMangel 04:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, fine. But that sounds like hearsay to me if it happened in 1955 and Mack (this is probably John E. Mack, who uncovered memories of alien abductions) published it in 1980. Also, it's very meager if put in relation to the hundreds (thousands?) of recovered memory cases in the nineties... Well, better than nothing. --Hob Gadling 09:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, it is pretty old isn't it. Okay, bad example. I've been looking to find some evidence for an opposing view to balance things out. If anyone knows of a verifiable case where someone repressed severe childhood memories, recovered them later in life, and had them confirmed as correct via physical evidence, then that would be good to add to the article, I would argue. I know the topic is 'false memory' but it is encompassing 'False Memory Syndrome,' which is a recently created term and worth keeping things NPOV as much as we can. --MaxMangel 12:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Reasons for recent edit

I edited this article with the sole intent of cleaning it up in terms of style, removing unclear language, and recasting some of its more uncautious statements into less inflammatory, more objective forms. I have made every effort to retain the writer's intent.

That said, I do think the article lacks substantiation and largely remains an opinion piece. Perhaps the writer will consider reinforcing the most glaring instances of questionable support. For example, regarding false memory syndrome, the writer asserts that "this condition has been studied" and that "sufferers have confessed to 'entirely made up stories'" but does not say how often or rigorously FMS has been studied and provides no references. The article's validity could be shored up tremendously with such support.

I chose to edit this piece because I find the subject matter interesting. I claim no expertise in the field of memory, although I do write and edit medical and scientific works for a living and have performed such related work as helping to line-edit the DSM-IV. Of course, such experience does not qualify me to rewrite this piece--hence my attempt to confine my changes to the issues mentioned. If anything I have done has in fact altered the author's intent, I hope someone will contact me so that I can address the matter.

Jack

Context and balance

I have a personal interest in this topic, which I will explain below, so I scanned the existing text curiously. Although there were some efforts at NPOV, the external links in particular did not seem properly balanced.

There are sufficient well-documented cases, like those involving satanic rituals and alien abduction, that clearly suggest false memories and those who instill them are a serious problem. The article is a reasonable attempt to describe this.

My own bias — and we all have one — is towards skepticism, though perhaps more moderate than CSICOP. But that also means I'm uncomfortable when I know there are two sides of a story, and only one presented. One of the prominent researchers affirming suppressed memories of trauma is someone I met many years ago, psychologist Jennifer Freyd. Her personal story involves a memory of sexual abuse by her father; this memory arose after I knew her. Two of the founders of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation are her parents, whom I later came to meet independently. They deny the abuse. All three are remarkable, intelligent people; Peter Freyd is a respected mathematician, an expert in category theory. What is the truth? Who should I believe? It is a very uncomfortable position for me; I can hardly imagine what it must be like for them. Were I a juror in a court case, however, I could not in good conscience entirely rely on anyone’s memory. I would want more tangible evidence.

It seems important to explain that false memories can seem as real and compelling as accurate memories. It also seems important to remind people of what we all know, that memory is fallible. What most people do not realize is how complex and creative memory is, and how easily it can be manipulated. For example, one magician can watch another perform, see the “dirty work” clearly, then hear a rapt audience member later describe impossible events that were not what they truly witnessed — but it’s what they remember. Finally, it is important to understand how upset people can become when their memory is challenged, reacting with considerably less aplomb than the central character in Total Recall.

I think the police lineup example is instructive, because more careful control of procedure has had benefits for everyone (except perhaps the guilty). And when DNA evidence conclusively overthrows a rape conviction based on the victim’s mistaken eyewitness identification, it also overthrows a common illusion that such testimony is reliable. Inadvertently, the police were “coaching” the witness, then reinforcing the victim’s belief to support their own. This is exactly what can happen in therapy.

Psychologists use double-blind experimental protocols because they know they cannot trust themselves, a fact well-documented in the history of the field. We should be no less careful about inadvertently creating false memories, because the consequences can be far worse.

This is not the same as declaring which memories are true and which are false. It is more like putting on a jacket when we know it’s extremely cold outside, a common-sense measure to avoid hypothermia.

I have tried to emulate the respect Ray Hyman shows serious researchers in parapsychology, even though he does not agree with their conclusions. With any luck, all sides here will be happy with the additions.

KSmrq 2005 July 1 04:26 (UTC)

Can we rename to False memory syndrome?

Guys: FMS is the TLA for this thing. Let us rename the entry to "False Memory Syndrome" Amorrow 22:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's not. They are not at all the same thing. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:35, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Please read the previous talk page discussions for an explanation of the chosen title. Essentially, it comes down to NPOV. False memory syndrome is controversial and disputed, false memory alone is not. Fear not, links are provided, for example, to the FMS Foundation web site, and FMS is also well-represented in the article. Since Wikipedia redirects False Memory Syndrome to this article, we have the best of both worlds. Of course, a subject does not have to be uncontroversial and externally validated to have a named page; depending on your views, we have both Invisible Pink Unicorn and Machine Elves. :-) KSmrq 16:14, 2005 July 24 (UTC)

I added a False memory syndrome subsection, so articles can wikilink directly to [False memory#False memory syndrome] --Muchness 04:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Very vivid"

Please do not insert the sentence about "very vivid" again. When this was done before, I deleted it as redundant (and said so), because the article already said:

• … false memories can seem as vivid and real as accurate memories

Please read more carefully. Also, please write more carefully. It is not more effective to say "big super giant enormous". The word "vivid" is a superlative needing no amplification; the relevant AHED definition [1] is:

• Perceived or felt with the freshness of immediate experience: a vivid recollection of their childhood.

Guides to strong writing agree that a single powerful adjective like "vivid" works better than "very vivid"; likewise, "mistaken" works better than "simply mistaken". Beyond that, there is a logic, a sequence of exposition, flowing through the three paragraphs; the inserted sentence is out of place where inserted. The idea is good (which is why it was already stated); the insertion, not good.

I hope this clarifies my objection. (And I'm sorry if I sound like a schoolmarm.) Also, I have revised the section to make it stronger still. --KSmrq^T 23:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I'd buy the "very vivid" with this reservation, its not "super giant enormous". One modifier is sometimes not excessive. A person's own evidence that a memory is true, is often that it is seems very real to them. It is important I feel to make the point, even if it feels exceptionally real, this is not evidence. Just "vivid" alone doesn't (for me) capture that. But its borderline and if you prefer not, then I can accept that.

As for the rest though, I think a full revert isnt in order. The initial sentence of that paragraph, compare:

• Whether a memory is true or false cannot be determined by whether it is vague or vivid, once forgotten or always remembered.
• Whether a memory is true or false cannot be determined from how vague, vivid, or emotional it is, or whether it has been newly discovered or always remembered.

The first of those is harder to read (the "once forgotten or always remembered" bit). The second is clearer for me.

And the final sentence:

• Thus we also need to understand common ways false memories can arise — bad police lineups, poor therapeutic practice, the misinformation effect — and seek to avoid creating them.

For me this lacks a "so that...". Whats this about? Hence I added: "so that the memories which are recalled are as accurate as possible, and are not accidentally made more traumatizing or damaging than they would otherwise have been." Which is the purpose of doing so.

Unless you object, I'll add those back, less the "very" and "extremely" unless you want to discuss that too. FT2 02:34, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Given the drama that can surround this topic, I'm glad to see we're not so far apart. For me, the sentence "Whether a memory is true or false …" was awkward to compose, and apparently that shows in the result. A previous editor had written:

• "Continuity of memory is no guarantee of truth, and disruption of memory is no guarantee of falsity."

It's not a bad sentence, but I wanted to move it to a more appropriate spot, and combine it with the "vivid" idea. I don't want to change the meaning, and "newly discovered" is not the same as "disrupted"; it's also sure to be seen as a loaded phrase. (Likewise, underlining "cannot" is provocative of emotion — the last thing a disputed article needs.) The form of the sentence is about duality: false/true, vague/vivid, disrupted/continuous. The content of the sentence is that the veracity of a memory is independent of its quality (but said in plain English). The position of the sentence threatens to interrupt the logical progression of the three paragraphs:

1. We know memory is unreliable.
2. Yet false memories are controversial; also traumatic and consequential.
3. Thus seek corroboration, causes, and prevention.

I want every sentence, every claim, every conclusion of this opening material to be undisputed. The intent is not to argue cases, but to establish a common ground on which a civilized and fruitful discussion can be held. Unfortunately, editors wander by, are inspired to make a point they feel is vital, and just stick it in where the mood strikes them. That's (apparently) how we got this sentence tacked on:

• "For example, studies have shown that false memories can arise through the misinformation effect."

I don't object to the content; quite the contrary: come one, come all, say what you have to say (documented, of course). Just wait your turn; don't try to cram all points, especially provocative ones, into the "Background" section. For that reason I'd really feel more comfortable moving the whole sentence about "true or false", which is really part of an argument, into a later section. I have resisted that temptation because history shows that yet another impatient editor will soon come along to "fill the vacuum".

I know, this is a long-winded response, a stream-of-consciousness description of the work I invest in writing. To be more concrete:

• Definitely no "very".
• I'd like a better wording for the "true or false" sentence, but not the one you propose.
• The last sentence doesn't need a "so what". The second paragraph has already introduced consequences, the third paragraph is about avoiding them.

One last thought: Rewriting others' words to everyone's satisfaction is a challenging (and thankless) task, especially when the topic is controversial. We need good will and good luck. --KSmrq^T 21:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand and thank you. I think you're mistaken to full-revert. We are looking at two sentences.

The first sentence, we agree, needs a rewrite, the question is "what is a better wording". We can work that out on the talk page.

The other I understand your logic, but I think either you are mistaken, or this is alluding to a missing piece of information in the 2nd paragraph instead. You say, The second paragraph has already introduced consequences. But there are two aspects to consequences: the direct issues to achieve or avoid, and examples what can go wrong if those fails.

Para.2 describes how false memory can have the effect of traumatic situations arising, pain, hurt, etc etc. But it's not saying the purpose of what is advocated is to avoid trauma etc etc. That would indeed be a repetition. It says that the purpose is to ensure accuracy and not accidentally causing them to become exaggerated... that is "means" whereas para.2 is "end". I hope that kind of clarifies the point as I see it.

What I see as the flow is therefore:

1. We know memory is unreliable. (para.1)
2. False memories can be disturbing and traumatic if they occur. (para.2)
3. Personal belief is not evidence that a memory is accurate.
4. The preferred solution is to seek corroboration and other evidence.
5. Since this is not always available, it is important to use careful handling, and be aware how false memories can arise, to help ensure accuracy of recall and that existing memories are not accidentally (or recklessly) degraded.

FT2 01:22, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Since the one sentence was struggling to carry too much weight, I have made it a paragraph. I just hope it does not provoke additional controversy about what research does or doesn't show. Also, I'm still of the opinion that the last sentence is adequate, but I have amended it a bit nevertheless. --KSmrq^T 21:20, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Not bad at all. I'd go with that as a fix. Couple of tiny edits but overall, it works better for me than the version which was being reverted to. FT2 21:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

We should merge this article with Repressed Memory

This is basically the same topic as Repressed memory. In Psychology books they are discussed together. So why do we still have two separate articles? We should merge these two. RK 19:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

While it is understandable that a psychology book might place these topics near each other, they are distinct. A memory can be false yet never "repressed". The existence of false memories is well-established; but there is controversy over specific memories and specific methods of "recovery". Experts disagree about whether memories can be repressed. False memory and repressed memory are separate topics that need separate, albeit linked, articles. --KSmrq^T 20:14, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Its better to cite POV

this should be reverted or rewritten. Sam Spade 19:47, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The article needs better citation all around. I added a few citation tags. --DanielCD 03:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Remembering which way to change the clocks

A mysteriously common example of false memory seems to be which way round daylight saving time goes. Both the Guardian's TV guide and the Loughborough Echo told thousands of people to change them the wrong way, proving (among many other cases) that there are enough people out there who vividly remember that it's the way round that it isn't.

That said, if my memory is serving me right, then every single instance I've seen of this mistake is of people turning the clocks back in the spring. Why have I seen no sign of people thinking that the clocks go forward in the autumn? -- Smjg 12:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)