Talk:Bass guitar

We seem to have both bass guitar and electric bass, which are (strictly speaking) different things but (obviously) overlap heavily. They may need to be merged, or at least refer to each other. --rbrwr

From electric bass

Inspiration

Inspired by the creation of the electric guitar, almost all classical instrumentalists experimented with attaching pickups to their instruments.

Today's bass and bass player alike is more complicated and expressive than the basses of yesteryear. Companies such as Warwick, Fodera, Ernie Ball, Yamaha, and Alembic have helped to take Leo Fender's original dream and idea to new levels.

The modern bass player has a wide range of choices when choosing an instrument, for example:

• How many strings (and what tuning)? Leo Fender's classic design had four strings, tuned E, A , D, G (with the fundamental of the E string vibrating at 41 Hz). Modern variants include:
  • Five strings (normally B, E, A, D, G but sometimes E, A, D, G, C)
  • Six strings (B, E, A, D, G, C)
  • More than six strings!
  • double and triple courses of strings (eg, a 12 string bass might be Eee Aaa Ddd Ggg, with standard pitch strings supported by two strings an octave higher)
  • Tenor bass - A, D, G, C
  • Piccolo bass - e, a, d, g (an octave higher than standard tuning)
  • Any other tuning, including mechanisms such as hipshot detuners that allow changes during the course of one song.
• Pickups - the earliest basses had a single split passive magnetic pickup. Modern choices include:
  • Active or passive (active circuits use a battery to boost the signal)
  • Pickup type
  • Pickup position (near the bridge or further towards the neck for a fatter sound)
  • More than one pickup, giving more tonal variation
  • Non-magnetic systems, eg. piezos or the innovative new Lightwave systems (these allow the bassist to use non-metallic strings)
• Body shape and colour
  • A wide range of coloured finishes or exploiting the amazing variety of natural wood forms
  • Different body shapes (affecting weight, balance and aesthetics)
  • Headed and headless (with tuning done at the bridge) designs
• Frets
  • Fretted, like most guitars
  • Fretless, like most Double basses

Add in the factors of amplification and effects units and it's easy to see why some bassists suffer from what is known as GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) ;-)

Anything in the above that isn't already included in bass guitar needs to be merged in. Tannin 23:42 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

I think that's most of the stuff merged in. I've included the list above as a good way of presenting a range of options and enhanced the lists at the end of the page with a selection of the material presented therein (expanding the list of players and adding a list of manufacturers).

It would be good to have the links from those lists filled in to indicate what each has contributed to the design and playing styles of the instrument.

Basswulf 10:48 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

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I've added a link to the bassist page. Do you think we should do away with the list of bassists on this page and instead enhance the information on the bassist page (probably splitting the list on that page into three - bass guitar, double bass and those who play both)? That's what I'm leaning towards, although I'd like to hear some other opinions.

Basswulf 11:37 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

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I think the 'playing styles' section could do with a bit of rewriting. I've moved the section on 'Acoustic Bass Guitars' as they are another form of the instrument rather then forcing a particular playing style. However, there's some other assertions that need tidying up (picks only used for playing fast? speed a hallmark of modern playing?)... I might do it sometime but if someone else fancies taking a stab at it...

--Basswulf 14:45 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

Bass guitar vs Electric bass

As I've noted in the article, this article is currently about electric bass, not about all bass guitars.

I've started an article on acoustic bass guitar. Strictly speaking, perhaps most of this article should be moved to electric bass, and bass guitar become a more general page? I'm still pondering this.

Arguments I see for it staying as is are that that the electric bass was most commonly called a "bass guitar" for the whole second half of the 20th century. It's arguably still current usage, and appears on many album credits.

Arguments for changing are that the inventor of the precision bass, which is the ancestor of all modern bass guitars both acoustic and electric, never used or approved of the term "bass guitar". This is becoming more relevant with time, Leo's contemporaries didn't care what he thought nearly as much as the next generation do. Also, acoustic, fretless and acoustic fretless (and semi-fretted) instruments are becoming more common, and this is producing a change too. There's even a tendency (not new) to regard calling an electric bass a "bass guitar" as a sign of ignorance. Most manufacturers, especially in the higher price brackets, avoid the term "bass guitar". In view of all this, some might find the current article structure confusing.

I think we need to acknowledge both usages, which the current structure does well, so I'm not in a hurry to change it. Other thoughts? Andrewa 20:49, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

How about an overarching page called Bass (instrument). This could contain general information about a wide range of instruments - guitar family, violin family, electric and acoustic variations, fretted and fretless, and even other 'bass' instruments such as tuba - and help explain some of the overlap between them.

It is confusing though - I'd rather have a simple page called, perhaps misleadingly, bass guitar than a plethora of unrelated pages that give inconsistent information on facets of the overall subject. FWIW, as a musician I think of myself as a bassist, never as a bass guitarist... Basswulf 09:02, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I like the idea of a Bass (instrument) article. There's a mention in the musical comedy "The Music Man" of "the one and only bass, and I oompahd up and down the square" and I've never understood exactly which instrument this means but brass players all seem to know. What to call the electric bass has been controversial since the 60s and possibly before but it didn't concern me then. I've changed my usage over the years, you'll have noticed I now call it an "electric bass guitar" not just "electric bass" as I used to out of respect for Leo. This is because nowadys there's another instrument that we need to call an "acoustic bass guitar" to distinguish it from a string bass (and nice edit to that article, just BTW, much clearer). (As another aside, when I have recorded using the Eston pictured, some ears I respect have mistaken its tone for that of a string bass. Just a bit limited in volume, and no pickup. Mikes up well and needs to be for any venue above about 40 people.)

There's another thing... by and large, I don't think working musicians care what it's called so long as it's clear what is meant. It's mainly some of the keen (non-playing) music fans who like to be pedantic, and always has been. But we need to cater for them too IMO. Andrewa 19:59, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well, I've gone and set the page up. Pop over to bass (instrument) and see what you think. I would like to see it being used when talking about bass in a context where that role may be filled by more than one form of bass instrument. Basswulf 12:05, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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I wasn't keen on the changes made to the page yesterday - they removed the neutrally worded, balanced historical picture and replaced it with trendy bass-speak. Fine for a home page but not, I think, quite the tone for the Wikipedia. Basswulf 11:30, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Is a drop head the same thing as a hipshot detuner? It sounds like it might be. Andrewa 00:39, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It sounds like exactly the same thing. I can see that it might be worth mentioning but I'm going to have a go at improving the description... there are a lot more options to 'drop tuners' than just going down a tone (ask Michael "doubledetunersonallfourstrings" Manring!) Basswulf 10:37, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yep... detuning options were already on the list. Therefore, I've dropped the 'drop head' section. Basswulf 10:39, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm... are you sure you haven't deleted content in doing this? "Hipshot" seems to be a brand of aftermarket machine head, and they may even have the market in these devices sewn up in the USA, but that's certainly not true in Australia. I'll see how your rewrite goes, but I think you should mention the term "drop head" somewhere as it's an important part of bass playing, internationally at least. Andrewa 21:20, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ran out of patience on this, so I've had another go. The tuning you deleted is far more common than any of the other non-standard four string tunings and deserves its own line. Suggest a separate article or at least a section on detuners. Andrewa 21:27, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think you've got a point about "Hipshot" being a brand name but I can't say I've heard the term "drop head" before. I'm based in the UK (not the US) but participate in several international discussion areas such as the Churchbass mailing list or Talkbass forum, both of which have a good sized contingent of antipodeans.

My impression of bass tuning is that once you get outside of (B)EADG(C) you reach territory where there is no standard. I would suggest a single bullet point for detuners, perhaps giving an example such as dropping an E string down to D and would definitely be in favour of a new page to explore the topic in more detail.

I'll wait a little while before making any changes to see your response. It would be good to co-operate on this to provide a breadth of information without making the main page too confusing. Basswulf 11:21, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Your last edit is probably pretty good. I can't find any local consensus on what else to call a detuner. "Drop head" and "drop key" both seem to be used, but are then denied by the very people who use them (including my original source!). So I'm now happy to stick with "detuner".

On the other hand, the D-E A D G tuning does seem to have some supporters... everyone I speak to says it's the original, normal and most common use of a detuner, which was my earlier impression too.

And I may be wrong about Hipshot not having the market sewn up here, they certainly have enormous respect among serious players, while there are unsourceable but persistent reports of problems with their rivals.

I apologise for being twitchy with you before. I'm very much a part-time bass player, drums is my normal seat. But I've had some hilarious comments from internet contacts (Wikipedians included) who play bass and seem to think this qualifies them to tell everyone else how to play. See the ABG page's history and scroll down to the comment that my Eston fretless "clearly has frets", I've been playing it for 20 years and I think I'd have noticed by now if it did. And some equally comical ones with Americans who think this qualifies them to tell everyone else how to live, see Talk:Gold album and compare to what the article now says.

So far as checking my sources against the Internet goes (WWW, email groups or usenet), this is another sore point. I'm thinking of writing a meta article on the tendency to make Google in particular and the WWW in general our sole primary source, eg to quote lack of Google hits as a reason for deletion on VfD. Have a look at [1] and scroll down to read "rm unknown academic" as justification for removing Henry Felsen for the second time in a few minutes, apparently for no reason other than this million-selling author only got 5 Google hits. This was also listed on VfD at the time, by the same guy, who remains completely unapologetic.

Contributors to the Internet remain a small and unrepresentative section of the population (both generally and of bass players). In general, they are also a well-educated lot compared to the general population, but this isn't always the case! I see a danger if Wikipedia simply distills what's already on the Web rather than checking other sources, and in that it's a lot more work to check other sources, I even think we should defer a little to people who do. Big topic. Andrewa 21:37, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I worked in a VIth Form College (16-19 year olds) from 1996-1999 and despaired at how many students seemed to think 'research this topic' meant 'copy and paste from MS Encarta', so I fully agree with what you're saying. I'm sure if I went back there now, Google would be the present synonym for 'research'! I think an article discussing this would be a good idea - maybe as an addition to the help pages (although I haven't looked there for a while now)? Basswulf 12:02, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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I've deleted the reference to washtub bass. I don't think it belongs here but I have put a reference in on the bass instruments page, which I think is more appropriate. Basswulf 11:29, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Reference to Atlansia removed - someone tried putting a link to their website - http://www.cnet.ne.jp/atlansia/ - but failed to use the correct syntax.

I think the list of manufacturers could do with a bit of a workover. If it's just going to be an attempt to build a comprehensive list of bass builders, then that should probably be moved to a separate page. Instead, I think this page should only contain companies who've made a significant contribution, in the same way as we have a list of a few bassists (and comments summarising their contribution) and a link to the fuller list. Bass manufacturers anyone? Basswulf 09:21, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Precision basses vs Jazz basses

Basses are classed as precision basses or jazz basses. What's the difference between the two types? I know it has something to do with the pickups, but I'm not totally certain what is what. If any of you know this, please consider adding it to the article!