User talk:Professorgheorghe

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Hello, Professorgheorghe, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! Voceditenore (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Voceditenore (talk) 06:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Camelia Voin at The Carnegie Hall.jpg

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Camelia Voin

If you have a personal or professional relationship with Camelia Voin, you'll find this page provides very helpful guidelines for editing under these circumstances. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Greetings Thank you for the advice on Camelia Voin page. I deleted the only sentence that might be interpreted as personal opinion. I appreciate you help. Professorgheorghe (talk) 16:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, it's not just the 'personal opinion'. Sometimes, when you have a personal affiliation with an artist, it's hard to be objective about whether the person meets the notability requirements for Wikipedia. "Notability" in the Wikipedia sense, is not the same thing as "accomplishment". A person can have accomplished a lot in their lives, but still not be notable enough for an encyclopedia article. Unless you provide more specific information with suitable references, I think the article has a very strong possibility of being taken to Articles for deletion for discussion, and eventual deletion. For example, The Met auditions etc. are mentioned, but did Ms. Voin win or place in the top 5 the National Finals? She's certainly not listed in the Met's PDF file listing all National Finalists.[1]. The Barry Alexander competition is so far not a notable competition. It's only run for one year and has very little coverage. Winners are selected solely via submitted recordings.[2] There were 5 first prize winners listed in the professional category and 5 second prize winners [3] but no indication of how many actually competed overall. In general, singers who are still on the 'competition circuit' aren't ready for a Wikipedia article.

Some leading roles in operas are mentioned, but not the opera companies themselves or any references (independent of the subject) given. In the absence of anything but local coverage, and coverage in university news letters, at least one major role needs to have been sung with a notable, fully professional, opera company. Likewise, a soloist in an oratorio performance requires one with a major conductor or orchestra. The soloist performances in Horst Gehann's Bach Project might help towards establishing notability. But the needs some kind of verification that this is actually the case, verification which is independent of Ms. Voin, for example press reviews or articles from Germany or at least official performance listings.

I'm going to list some past deletion discussions for classical singers and musicians which will give you an idea of what's required. These passed: [4], [5]. And these did not pass: [6], [7], [8], [9]. At this point my own feeling is may it too soon for an article on Ms. Voin, but would be happy to be proved wrong. All the best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Camelia Voin

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Camelia Voin, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process because of the following concern:

Non notable. Voin is still a student. She is obviously talented and may well become notable in the future, but she is not yet notable as defined by WP as of February 09. Good luck to her in the future!

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Kleinzach 03:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Camelia Voin

An article that you have been involved in editing, Camelia Voin, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camelia Voin. Thank you. Kleinzach 07:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Camelia_Voin_Picture.jpg

File Copyright problem

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Re: Reinstating the article Camelia Voin

Hello. My apologies for taking so long to get back to you on this, but I've been very busy elsewhere on Wikipedia this past month, more so than I expected. I had a look at the links you posted on my talk page. [10] My impression is that the subject probably still does not clearly pass the notability criteria which you'll find at WP:MUSICBIO, even when adapted for opera and classical singers. However, the material is an improvement over what was available before, outlined at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camelia Voin. You could take a chance anyway. There is a possibility that if it were to taken to an AfD discussion a second time, it might scrape past on the strength of the Q Magazine interview and the radio broadcast. But I certainly wouldn't guarantee it. Some comments on the links below:

• The following website from the archives of Siebenburgiche Zeitund is a record of the June 23, 2002, 97th concert of the Bach Werke Zyklus Project. The article is mentioning only that there was a group of six international solo singers joining the Bach-Chor Darmstad and the Kammerorchester Pro Musica under the direction of Horst Gehann. [11] However, the following link is the first page of the Concert Program collaborating the fact that Camelia Voin was the solo soprano singing the role of Momus. [12].

A scan of a program isn't normally considered a reliable source. Plus, this is a soloist in 1 performance, so on its own it does not attest to a significant career as a soloist with multiple major orchestras on its own.

• Camelia Voin is listed in the Dictionary of Celebrated Personalities of Opera on the Romanian National Opera webside. [13]

It's not on the site anymore, at least at that link, but I found the cached version and read it. This isn't an entry in a real dictionary/reference work and consists of a brief reprint of her publicity material. As such, it not independent of the subject, not a reliable source, and would not count as part of significant coverage.

• July 2010, Camelia Voin presented a concert at the Accademia di Romania in Rome, Italy. [14]

A small, semi-private recital, not reviewed.

• July 17, 2009 – An article about Camelia Voin was published in the Romanian “Q Magazine” [15]

This one would count as coverage in an independent source.

• October 9, 2010, Radio Romania aired an interview with Camelia Voin, which also included several musical selections. [16].

Actually, the interview was primarily with Virgil Nemoianu, with a much smaller segment containing a phone interview with Camelia Voin. Nevertheless, a reasonable source

• December 2010, the city of Lugoj awarded to its most notable natives Lifetime Achievement Awards. At this Gala festivity, soprano Camelia Voin received the Cultural Lifetime Achievement Award. (Mrs. Voin was born in Lugoj, Romania.) [17]

This is not a significant award. Lugoj is a small town of 46,000 people. The coverage of her in the article consists of one very brief paragraph, amongst those of several others who also got this award on that occasion.

• April 2, 2011, Camelia Voin performed the world premiere of Due canti per voce e piccola orchestra by Guido Alberto Fano at Loma Linda University, CA.[18]

The source only states that it was a US premiere (and even that somewhat ambiguously). The orchestra is semi-professional, the venue not notable, and there were no reviews in the mainstream press.

• May 2011, Camelia Voin was conferred the Doctor of Musical Arts degree with a major in vocal performance by the Claremont Graduate University. (Actual graduation date was July 2010.) [19]

Having a PhD. doesn't make someone notable.

• Currently Dr. Camelia Voin is professor of voice at CGU [20] and UCR [21].

She is an adjunct voice instructor at those small colleges, not a tenured Professor. This does not attest to notability.

• June 12, 2011, Camelia Voin performed at the celebrated Teatro La Fenice in Venice, Italy. The concert, entitled “Antico e Popolaresco” was organized and sponsored by the Archivio Musicale Guido Alberto Fano, the City of Venice, the Region of Veneto, the Gran Teatro La Fenice Foundation, and the Giorgio Cini Foundation, in celebration of the 50 years anniversary from the death of Italian composer Guido Alberto Fano, and at the 150 years anniversary of the unification of Italy. Concert notes were presented by the Italian Radio RAI 3 producer Valentina Lo Surdo. [22]. [23], [24], [25]

All sources are the same duplicate recital announcement. Note it was given not in the main theatre of La Fenice as your text implied, but in one of the smaller concert rooms, of the Sale Apollinee and it doesn't appear to have been reviewed.

I've been quite frank here about the quality of the sources, but this should by no means be taken as disparaging Ms. Voin's career or talent. I'm just preparing you for the kinds of arguments that would be made an AfD discussion, if the new article gets taken there. If you do decide to create the article again, I strongly recommend that you do so as a user draft first, e.g. User:Professorgheorghe/Camelia Voin draft and ask some other opinions, possibly via listing a link to the draft at Wikipedia:Deletion review before moving it into article space.

Another factor here is that you are closely associated to the article's subject. It shouldn't necessarily count against accepting the article, but in practice it often does. Is there a particular rush to get this article on Wikipedia? Generally speaking, when someone becomes truly notable, an independent editor will almost invariably create an article for them. A marginal case, created by someone closely associated with the subject is much more likely to be deleted. So you also need to think about that.

Also make sure that you avoid "padding" the article or implying accomplishments that aren't really there. If she has not sung leading roles in major opera houses, make sure the article is not worded to imply otherwise. Ditto, implying that she is a tenured Professor. Ditto implying that she sang on the main stage of La Fenice, when actually it was in one of recital rooms for the theatre. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 18:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)