Talk:Girondins

I don't think the category listing here is appropriate. The Girondists were not a political party in any proper sense - they were a faction. And to call them "liberals" is to buy into the grand historiographical narrative of girondin-admiring 19th century liberal historians like Thiers and Michelet (I think) who admired the Girondists as precursors to themselves. This view is seen by most modern historians as deeply flawed. While there was certainly liberalism to be found in the French Revolution, I think it's highly dubious to identify it with this opportunistic and not very impressive lot. john k 00:40, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"This view is seen by most modern historians as deeply flawed." That's pretty sweeping, and it's not reflected in the article as it stands. Some citations (and maybe some relevant contributions to the article) would seem to be in order. From what I can tell, both the Girondists and the Montagnards were generally what would later be called liberals. Of course, later liberals prefer to embrace the Gironde because they mostly didn't live long enough to get their hands as bloody... -- Jmabel 06:02, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think it would be completely fair to call both Girondists and Montagnards liberals. However, The Mountain is not in this category, nor in the liberalism series. Which suggests to me that the categorization of Girondists as such is not so much a matter of noting that just about everybody in the French Revolution to the right of the Hébertists and to the left of the hard core monarchist emigrés was a liberal, but in the old, discredited, 19th century sense that the Girondists were the precursors of the reasonable Orleanist liberals (or, perhaps, its inverted Marxist form which sees the Girondins as the agents of large commercial interests, or whatever it is they said). That is to say - sure, the Girondins were liberals. So were the Montagnards. So were the Feuillants. So were the various deputies of the Plain. So was just about everybody who had a role in governing France between 1789 and 1799 (except, of course, for poor Louis XVI). But to call out the Girondins, specifically, and nobodoy else, as a "liberal party," is highly misleading. john k 06:31, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I concur. You might want to ping User:Wilfried Derksen (a.k.a. Gangulf), who was responsible for most the recent major reorganization of articles and categories related to liberalism. -- Jmabel 06:54, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

I might agree that other currents could be considered to be more or less liberals, like the feuillants, but e.g. not every French revolutionary current. The Jacobins for example were clearly not liberal, since they used terror to impose their ideas. This method certainly excludes then from being liberal. --Gangulf 17:35, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You must realize, however, that the ideals the jacobins had were far more liberal than those of the girondists. Take note of where the members of the groups came from - the girondists drew their members and power bloc from the middle class - the burgeoisie. The jacobins, essentially the Mountain, drew their support from the mob of Paris. Robespierre is known as the "pure idealist" for a reason - he wanted total equality amongst the people. Indeed, he was the precursor of socialism - and, as some in the 60's and 70's may have argued, the precursor of communism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.110.131.181 (talk • contribs) 11 Jan 2006.

Which is precisely why many would say that, at least once in power, the Jacobins were to the left of "liberal". -- Jmabel | Talk 07:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Look the political term "Liberal" can undergo many changes in an always changing society, especially during the French Revolution. During the Legislative Assembly period all those who opposed the ancien regime, were deemed "liberal" that ranged from the Constitutionalist Monarchists/Feulliants to the precusors of the Enrages/Hebrtists. Remember even the ancien regime aristocrats believed that the Feulliants were just as equally as radical as the jacobins when the revolution was in its infancy. Then you have the further division of power once the ancien regime is ousted and the Convention arises, Feulliants are considered conservative, while the Girodians as moderates and the Jacobins are leftists. Once Barnave and his boys are neutralized as a political force, you have the Jacobins becoming the Liberals and the Girondists righties, and Roux's Enrages and Herbertists becoming the radicals. After the eradication of Girondists, you have the Jacobins split among the Robespierre faction being of the left, Danton's faction which before were considered Radicals in the beggining, now as perceived as Righties and the Herbertists as Ultra-Lefties. To the Herbertist and to Roux's Enrages, Robespierre and his compatriots were Moderates at best. To the Indulgents, the Robespierrists were aligned with the Communial Radicals (herbertists) for allowing their social platform to continue. To put it succintly, as the Terror increased and Parisan radicalism arose, groups' reactions to the ever increasing changes brought from the revolution also changed. Therefore I agree Girondists should not be considered "Liberals", because at one time or another most groups in the Revolution were considered Liberals. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ronsin1976 (talk • contribs) 18 Feb 2006.

Cleanup!

Please!

A better summary would also be appropriate. Halfway down the article I still wasn't really sure what their political opinions were all about.

-  In the Legislative Assembly these represented a compact body of opinion which, though not as yet definitely republican, was considerably more advanced than the moderate royalism of the majority of the Parisian deputies.

"More advanced"? And how royalistic were the 'majority of the Parisian deputies'?