Wikipedia:Media copyright questions

Media copyright questions

Welcome to the Media Copyright Questions page, a place for help with image copyrights, tagging, non-free content, and related questions. For all other questions please see Wikipedia:Questions.

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3. Type the name of the tag (e.g.; {{Cc-by-4.0}}), not forgetting {{ before and }} after, in the edit box on the image's description page.
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Fair use - how many images can we use to represent a modern artist's work?

Correct me if I am wrong, but if all works of a given artists are copyrighted (like with all modern artists), we allow one copy to be used in the article under fair use provisions, right? If so, here are few issues for further investigation that I stumbled upon during a short review. 1) David Hockney has several instances 2) Do we need both File:Campbells Soup Cans MOMA.jpg and File:Warhol-Campbell Soup-1-screenprint-1968.jpg? Probably all uploads by this editor to Commons are copyvios; one should be moved to en wiki under fair use. If anybody is so inclined, there is probably much more of this located simply through looking at the biographies of artists featured in the modern art article, many of them have more than one image, some have galleries of non-free art... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:47, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no particular number allowed (not even one). Rather each use must significantly increase reader understanding of sourced discussion of the artist’s work. And multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information. See WP:NFCC. —teb728 t c 00:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

As for the soup cans, it is unlikely that both could be used on the same article without violating WP:NFCC#3. But as long as each is used in at least one article, I know of no reason why both couldn't be hosted on Wikipedia. —teb728 t c 00:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense; Campbell's Soup Cans is an FA on the series, and rightly uses several images, which are necessary to illustrate the development of it. Johnbod (talk) 04:17, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

TEB728 is absolutely right that there is no set number, and "zero" can be a perfectly acceptable answer. More practically, if a work of art is considered to be a defining element of the artist in question and can be backed up by sources, we will typically allow a handful of examples, in the same manner we allow for song samples for modern musicians and artists, but that number will vary. We can't use galleries, however, if all the works are non-free, so generally the number will be low (1-3 as a guess). --MASEM (t) 00:44, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

So when is zero an acceptable answer? What makes one artist bio acceptable to have several fair use images, and another - zero? I'd think that each artist's style is unique enough to warrant at least one image of his work in their respective article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 02:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

A reasonable rule of thumb: use a picture if you also have sourced commentary about the artist's style in the article. If it's a mere stub with only the basic biographical data but no substantial critical discussion of the artworks, then illustration of the artworks is unnecessary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:52, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. So if the sourced commentary suggests, for example, that an artist style is of patriotic, military paintings, than we can have one image that illustrates that, right? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 13:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by “illustrate.” Sometimes the word is used to mean “clarify”; other times to mean “decorate.” See wikt:illustrate#verb. It could certainly be used if it is needed for reader understanding of the commentary, but not just decorate a mention of “patriotic, military paintings.” What the policy actually says is, “Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.” —teb728 t c 00:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

teb—the inclusion of an artist's work should always be considered necessary to an article on a person whose primary notability is that of an artist. You say, "It could certainly be used if it is needed for reader understanding of the commentary, but not just decorate a mention of 'patriotic, military paintings.'" The inclusion of a visual representation of the person's artwork should always be considered to "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic".[1] The existence of the article is all the justification you need for the inclusion of the artwork. The artwork is the resin d'être of the article. Bus stop (talk) 12:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Images of artwork can serve multiple purposes. The image sheds light on the artist, helping the reader to associate the artwork with the artist, who probably has an article on Wikipedia. The image also helps to construct for the reader a world of art that makes sense, because the images represent points in time, points in place, points in style, points in quality, and points in art movements. The above discussion is only taking into account that an artwork reflects on an artist, but an image of an artwork in our encyclopedia can, and usually does, do more than just provide the reader with a mental association between artwork and artist. This is an argument for more than one image by a given artist. This is also an argument for more than one image of the same artwork. The "Campbells Soup Cans" are not just illustrative of the sort of art that Andy Warhol made. The "Campbells Soup Cans" show the reader what is considered an exceptionally iconic artwork. The image pinpoints a time, place, and art movement. It is found in multiple articles for that reason. An argument can be made for putting images of that artwork into even more articles, for instance articles on Printmaking in general and Screenprinting in particular. Bus stop (talk) 01:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-free art is never appropriate in articles like Printmaking or Screenprinting because a free version demonstrating the technique can always been made. The only place where we guarentee that a work of art that is non-free can be used is on an article about that specific work of art. We do allow some cases of examples to show the style of artwork for an artist, but they have to be judged carefully and should be selected based on sources. (There's no question that Warhol's soup can art is one of his well-known art and thus would be appropriate on his page). --MASEM (t) 02:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I can see that images of specific artworks might not be essential to articles on art techniques. You make a valid point. But styles, movements, genres, descriptive terms—these require examples in the form of artworks. Bus stop (talk) 03:19, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that for when a free image is available, we should avoid using a non-free one. But in cases of modern artists, where all of their work is non-free, having a sample of their work in the article is, IMHO, crucial to show the reader their style. After all, a picture is worth a thousand words, and with visual art, I don't believe any amount of words can be a substitute for a picture. If a person is notable because they are a painter, the article MUST sport a sample of their work to be comprehensive. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 15:22, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I should be clear that the place I'm specifically saying that non-free shouldn't be used is in the discussion of a specific method of creating art, since we can always create that by someone being photographed freely doing that. In articles about an artist, about a specific style period for art, and specific works of art, there's no question that non-free would be allowed, the question is more to what degree.

But specifically on the artists themselves, having an image may not be appropriate. Let's say we have an artist that doesn't do many masterpieces but is sufficiently good and does a lot of art, so that he is notable, but his art style isn't critiqued in depth. (see Phil Foglio for one example). Without any critique of his art, only his proficiency, there's no reason to include an example of his artwork on their bio page. On the other hand, when a specific piece of art is critically described as a defining work for an article (Wahrol's soup can), its use on the artist page is fine. That's why one needs to check sources and follow what they suggest are the appropriate examples to include. --MASEM (t) 15:31, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I always thought Phil Foglio's art was unique enough to be a good example for an artists that must have a sample in his article. And you say his work hasn't been subject to any critical discussions? This is a bit OT, but few minutes of search found for example this, and I am sure there is more. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 17:22, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—visual art is almost entirely nonverbal, but I think you are suggesting that words can suffice. Are you suggesting that we would not learn much about the artwork of Phil Foglio by the inclusion of an image such as this? How would you convey that in words? Bus stop (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course its non-verbal. But you can't just say "oh, I need a sample of this person's art to talk about the person". If the uniqueness and style of their art is discussed in depth by sources, then yes, there's a likely chance to use the art on the person's page. But there's artists that can be prolific and produce lots of work but without any real discussion of the style, and in that case, we don't include that. Note, of course, that if the art they produce is notable, we can certainly have the art there. --MASEM (t) 20:57, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—I am not sure why you are making such a sharp distinction between whether their work is discussed in sources or not. It seems to me that as long as we know that the article is about someone whose primary reason for notability is that they are a visual artist, that it would inevitably follow that an image of their art is required, that being because words cannot convey what an image of visual artwork can convey, in most instances. Bus stop (talk) 21:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

It's very important because you need to meet NFCC#8. If sources discuss an artist but make no mention of his unique style, and simply that they are an artist with certain works, seeing their work does not aid in the article (it would be original research to try to describe his style otherwise), and thus NFCC#8 is failed. Again, Phil Foglio is a great example as it stands: we can understand he does a lot of fantasy-based artwork but as no text presently try to establish his style, we don't need to include any NFC at this point. I do note that there are likely sources that do describe Foglio's style as shown, so when those are added to the article, a representative image would be reasonable too. --MASEM (t) 22:19, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—doesn't "fantasy work" describe a style? You just said: "Again, Phil Foglio is a great example as it stands: we can understand he does a lot of fantasy-based artwork but as no text presently try to establish his style, we don't need to include any NFC at this point." There is text in the article referring to his work as "fantasy work". Why would an image not complement the text in the article referring to Foglio's imagery as "fantasy work"? Bus stop (talk) 00:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Because "fantasy work" is a generic term (technically fantasy art) so an image to show that doesn't help the reader. In Foglio's case, as pointed out, there's at least one critique that comments on the cartoon-ish nature he provides to that type of art. There should be more but that type of description at least starts towards what's needed by NFCC#8. --MASEM (t) 00:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—if "'fantasy work' is a generic term (technically fantasy art)", can you please tell me a term that refers to a style of art that is not a "generic term"? Bus stop (talk) 00:57, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

There isn't. That's why if sources only describe an artist's work in generic, non-evaluative terms (eg "fantasy art") then an image is not appropriate for the artist's page. When there is critique and in-depth discussion of how the artist's work varies (or perhaps even defines) the generic genre term, then there's a starting point. --MASEM (t) 01:07, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—you refer to "non-evaluative terms". Can you please give me an example of an "evaluative term"? Are there "evaluative" terms used in describing works of art? If there are any—what would be an example of one? Let us suppose that I accept what you say: that "fantasy art" is a "non-evaluative term". What would be an example of an evaluative term? Are there any? Bus stop (talk) 01:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Evaluation is going to be critique and commentary that makes an artist's work unique in the eyes of one or more secondary sources. There are not going to be categorically explicit terms that you're asking for because the opinion of third parties of their impression of someone's art isn't just going to be that simply put. They will likely be full sentences and paragraphs discussing this from the sources. As an example, which is not necessarily true but just to work with something: "Foglio draws fantasy art" is a factual statement that has no evaluation, simply stating his preferred genre/area of art. "Foglio draws fantasy art with a cartoon-ish flair that brings a sense of humor and parody to his works" is an opinion and would be the start of something that would allow the use of an image of his work to be used in his own article, assuming that actually was part of the sourcing for the work. --MASEM (t) 13:49, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—you say: "As an example, which is not necessarily true but just to work with something: 'Foglio draws fantasy art' is a factual statement that has no evaluation, simply stating his preferred genre/area of art. 'Foglio draws fantasy art with a cartoon-ish flair that brings a sense of humor and parody to his works' is an opinion and would be the start of something that would allow the use of an image of his work to be used in his own article, assuming that actually was part of the sourcing for the work."

Why would you want "evaluation"? From where are deriving the need for "evaluation"? You refer to "factual statement[s]". Why aren't factual statements sufficient to justify the inclusion of an image of the artist's work? You refer to "opinion". Why would we require "opinion" as "the start of something that would allow the use of an image of his work to be used in his own article"? Why wouldn't "factual statement[s]" in the absence of "evaluation" provide justification for the inclusion of a non-free image of the artist's work? You seem to be making an important distinction between facts and opinions. Why would opinions justify the inclusion of an image of an artist's work in an article when facts would not? Bus stop (talk) 14:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

There may be cases were a factual statement may be needed if illustrating the fact is aided by the use of an image. I don't know of any specific current examples, but say an artist works by an obscure mosaic-method of small items to make a larger picture; that may allow for the use of an image to show an example close-up of the mosaic to make it easier for the reader to understand that style. On the other hand, "fantasy art" is a standardize genre. It's broad, but it immediately evokes the general nature of the art, and thus without other commentary, needs no illustration. That's why using images of art based on straight-up factual information and not commentary is likely not going to need illustration: it can be described in the broad, generalized terms that we have other pages that demonstrate that element visually as needed.

We generally require commentary and other opinion from other sources to assure that we are not including images based on the passion of WP editors for a specific topic, and to make sure that NFCC#8 is being met. Note that I've said that the presence of opinion likely justifies the image, but that's not always the case; the opinions and critique of the art would need to be of the sort, that, without the image, it is difficult to understand that opinion, as per NFCC#8. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—WP:NFCC#8 says "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you are adding to the above that "We generally require commentary and other opinion from other sources to assure that we are not including images based on the passion of WP editors for a specific topic, and to make sure that NFCC#8 is being met."

Where are you getting this from? Where in policy is it said that "We generally require commentary and other opinion from other sources to assure that we are not including images based on the passion of WP editors for a specific topic..."? Is that written into policy elsewhere? It does not seem to be found at WP:NFCC#8. Bus stop (talk) 14:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

See the general terms used at WP:NFCI about "critical commentary". Note that those aren't an inclusive list of where images can be used, but cases that fall outside of it need very explicit rationales and reasoning to be included. "to illustrate an artist's typical style" is not sufficient if there's no sourced commentary to explain why we need the image in the artist article. --MASEM (t) 14:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—are you referring to WP:NFCI#7 which reads: "Paintings and other works of visual art: For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school."? Is that the wording in policy that you are referring to? I see no mention of "opinion" or "evaluation". Bus stop (talk) 23:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Uh, yes. Opinion and evaluation fall into the broad range of what can be construed as critical commentary. --MASEM (t) 00:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—yes, critical commentary encompasses a "broad range" of types of material. I think most of that which establishes notability for an artist is actually critical commentary if we broadly construe the term "critical commentary". You certainly haven't shown me wording in policy that restricts critical commentary to "opinion", or to "evaluation". Bus stop (talk) 01:28, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I never said it was restricted to opinion or evaluation, and besides, this is not a test of being a wikilawyer - I was not saying that those exact words appear in policy/guidelines. The words we do use are "critical commentary" which means it requires a non-obvious, non-factual discussion of the artist's work to be considered "critical commentary". Saying an artist's work falls into a specific art style is a plain statement of fact and not critical commentary. Saying how an artist's work is unique within that style, is a statement of critical commentary, but one that cannot be made by a Wikipedia editor without introducing original research or bias, and thus why we need that to be critical commentary from sources. There is no exact bounds on what exactly is "critical commentary", so I can't provide you exacting examples. Only that in the general trend, the less the sources go into detail about an artist's work, and the generic and factual that information becomes, the less likely that the article on the artist has enough critical commentary to support the artist's work. --MASEM (t) 13:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—would I be correct in saying that, in the instance of an article on a visual artist, an image would "significantly increase [a] readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding"? We find that language at WP:NFCC#8. Yet you have said "TEB728 is absolutely right that there is no set number, and "zero" can be a perfectly acceptable answer." How would "zero" be an acceptable answer? We would be talking about, for the sake of this discussion, an individual whose primary notability is that of a visual artist. I think that there are more important and less important reasons for the inclusion of imagery in an article which is a biography of a visual artist. You seem to be focussing on less important reasons for the inclusion of an image of an artist's work in an article on that artist. Your argument has largely focussed the inclusion of an image to illustrate "commentary" on the artist's work. But this is not the most important reason that an image would generally be included. Your argument has focussed on the wording in policy found at WP:NFCI#7 which reads: "Paintings and other works of visual art: For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school." Your argument has largely dwelt upon defining "critical commentary". But I think the more important concern is not with critical commentary at all. I would submit that the more important concern is providing the reader with a representative example of the artist's work. This allows the reader to see the work, and this "significantly increase[s] [the] readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." WP:NFCC#8 reads in full: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that by means of WP:NFCC#8 we have support in policy for the inclusion of an image of the artist's work in just about any biography about an artist whose primary reason for notability is his/her artwork. I am not the only editor in this thread saying this. User:Piotrus expresses this well in several posts in this thread:

"So when is zero an acceptable answer? What makes one artist bio acceptable to have several fair use images, and another - zero? I'd think that each artist's style is unique enough to warrant at least one image of his work in their respective article."

"I agree that for when a free image is available, we should avoid using a non-free one. But in cases of modern artists, where all of their work is non-free, having a sample of their work in the article is, IMHO, crucial to show the reader their style. After all, a picture is worth a thousand words, and with visual art, I don't believe any amount of words can be a substitute for a picture. If a person is notable because they are a painter, the article MUST sport a sample of their work to be comprehensive."

The above two posts were posted earlier by User:Piotrus. I just would repeat that there are more and less important reasons for including an image in an article. The illustration of "commentary" is of secondary importance to the need to allow the reader to see the work first-hand and for themselves. You have been arguing that "commentary" must be voluminous and must contain evaluations and opinions and be non-obvious and non-factual but I think this is all besides the point. Policy is not predicating the inclusion of imagery on the illustrating of "commentary". Policy allows for the inclusion of imagery to increase a readers' understanding of a topic, and that policy language provides the justification for the inclusion of an image of an artist's work.

Policy provides justification for the inclusion of images if they can be shown to be illustrative of "critical commentary". But policy also provides justification for the inclusion of imagery on the basis of it significantly increasing the readers' understanding of a subject. Clearly in the case of a visual artist the inclusion of a representative example of the artist's work accomplishes this. An image of the artwork significantly increases the reader's understanding of the subject. Bus stop (talk) 12:43, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

The policy is NFCC#8, followed by NFCC#3a on minimal use of non-free images. To be critical to the reader's understanding, we must be sure that seeing the art or the style is a fundamental part of understanding the article on the artist, and its omission would be harmful -- this second part is often overlooked. Inclusion of non-free nearly always meets the first part of that requirement, but the later is the one most people forget also is required. When an artist's work is not discussed in any manner by the article, then the lack of an image is not harming the reader's understanding; including the non-free image would violate #8. Now, the discussion needs to be more than just passing mention. "John Q Public painted X" does not support the inclusion of X because, again, the lack of image X is not harming the reader's understanding. Similarly "John Q Public paints abstract art" doesn't help because "abstract art" is a genre/style where plenty of image examples already exist, even if they're not JQP's. The reader's understanding is only affected when the article goes into critical commentary about the work itself in relation to the artist, and such commentary can only come from sources, otherwise it falls into WP:OR, and WP:NPOV. If such commentary exists, then both parts of #8 are met; we help the reader understand the commentary better, and that understanding would be hurt without the image. If the artist is truly notable for being an artist, this is a very very low barrier to meet. Again, I brought up the Foglio example because as it stands now the artist lacks discussion of how his art is taken, thus an example bit of work would be inappropriate, but to stress, that's because it's lacking sourcing/content that has been found to establish those points.

The argument "a picture is worth a thousand words" does not fly on WP, because first, we are an encyclopedia, not an art appreciation guide. Second, we would require art to be shrunk down to appropriate resolution, meaning that any "appreciation" is going to be nearly demolished at the lower resolution. --MASEM (t) 14:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—if the article is a biography of a person whose primary notability is as a visual artist then of course the inclusion of a representative example of the artwork is important. If you doubt that, please tell me. There need be no critical commentary when the article is about an individual artist. WP:NFCC#8 provides all the justification we need: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Bus stop (talk) 14:32, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

No it is not; if no source have bothered to discuss the artist's actual work to any degree, then it is not WP's to be doing that job either (nor can we do that job without introducing OR). If no sources have said anything about the works in any detail, omitting the image is not harming the reader's understand per the second half of NFCC#8. I don't disagree that inclusion of the image would help, but NFCC#8 has two requirements that both must be met, and in these cases, only one is. --MASEM (t) 14:37, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—the article is on the artist. The artist's reason for having an article is his/her artwork. There is no original research as long as the image is verified as being a product of the artist in the title of the article. Let us look at policy language again: WP:NFCC#8: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Increasing the reader's understanding of the topic and not being detrimental to that understanding are two sides of the same coin. The resin d'être of the article happens to be the artwork. The artwork and the artist are inextricably related to one another. In order to write the article that has the artist's name as the title it is very important to show a representative example of the visual artwork—if it is visual. Of course—if the artwork for some reason cannot be represented in a visual form, then we would probably be exempted from a responsibility to show the reader what the artwork looks like. But in the normal course of things, it is virtually axiomatic that of crucial importance to the well-being of an article on an individual, inclusion of artworks helps. Exclusion of artworks hampers the reader's ability to fully grasp the subject of the article. Bus stop (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

In order to write the article that has the artist's name as the title it is very important to show a representative example of the visual artwork is a false statement, from the standpoint of an encyclopedia. An article about an artist is written from the point of being a biography of that person, not an art appreciation service. We cannot be empathetic to inclusion of art because we feel it helps; it must help, and that can only be shown by sourced discussion of the art in the text of the article. The two parts of NFCC#8 are very different statements, they are not different sides of the same coin, as you believe. The first part, helping the reader's understanding, almost always can be justified for potential non-free inclusion, but the demonstration of omission harming the article is where most cases falter, and this is just one of them.

The point I am trying to make is that line for inclusion of an artist's work is very low if the artist is truly notable for being an artist. Someone has bound to describe their style to some degree that, for WP's NFCC purposes, are sufficient to suggest inclusion of an image. But we cannot make a blanket allowance for including an example of that artist's work on their page; we don't do that for musical artists either. The barrier to include an example piece of art should be easy if the artist is as important as you're saying that we need to see their work to understand. --MASEM (t) 15:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—you say "The first part, helping the reader's understanding, almost always can be justified for potential non-free inclusion, but the demonstration of omission harming the article is where most cases falter, and this is just one of them."

Omission harms the article because of interest to the reader is what the artwork looks like. No, we are not promoting the artwork. This isn't about "art appreciation". At issue is the prime purpose of the article: the communication of information. Contained within the image of the artwork is information integrally related to the subject of the article. Is the subject of the article not a person who is notable for making artwork? Is it possible that the reader may want to be informed of the nature of that artwork? Does visual imagery convey information? Blocking the inclusion of vital information can be construed as something detrimental to an article. Bus stop (talk) 16:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I've explained several times. If all the sources say about an artist is that the person is an artist, has done X number of works, has done art for certain entities, but never talk about the art in any degree, there is zero harm in omitting an image of their art. If the sources don't spent any time discussing it, then Wikipedia shouldn't care either. It would be different if we were an art guide, but we're not. Non-free content policy outweighs the perceived value of a picture of someone's art if there's zero discussion about the art in any depth. The low barrier where the art is actually discussed in some analytical depth is all that is needed to make the inclusion outweigh the restrictions on non-free. --MASEM (t) 16:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—you say "If the sources don't spent any time discussing it, then Wikipedia shouldn't care either."

But we are not talking about "discussing" the artwork, are we? We are talking about the inclusion of an image of the artwork. At issue is whether or not an image should be included—not whether some particular text should be added to our article. Bus stop (talk) 16:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes we are discussing the "discussion of the work", with respect for how it exemplifies or demonstrates the artist's style. If that discussion doesn't exist from sources, then including an example of an artist's work is purely decorative, and does not meet the requirements for NFCC#8. This follows from every other use of non-free media on WP; inclusion without discussion violates NFCC#8 because without that discussion, we cannot show how the article is harmed by the lack of the non-free media. --MASEM (t) 16:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—do you doubt that the artwork "exemplifies or demonstrates the artist's style"? It is axiomatic that an artist's artwork exemplifies his/her style. Bus stop (talk) 16:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

A piece of art will be an example of an artist's style, but no source explains why this is the case, we can't include it because the omission of the art does not harm the reader's understanding of the biographical article on the artist, that is NFCC#8 is failed. --MASEM (t) 17:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—you say "the omission of the art does not harm the reader's understanding of the biographical article on the artist".

WP:NFCC#8 says: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

The above is a reference to "Contextual significance." The art is "significant" in the "context" of the artist. We want to understand the significance of the relationship between artist and artwork. They are inextricably linked. The person who is the subject of the article would not have an article at all if he/she did not meet notability requirements as a visual artist. On what basis does the person meet notability requirements? Answer: on the basis of the artwork. There is a significant relationship between the two, and it is to the detriment of the article as a whole to remove a portion of that relationship. In order to shed light on the person, we introduce the art. Increasing the reader's understanding of the person that is the subject of the article is indeed hampered by omitting the artwork. In order to avoid hampering the reader's understanding of the person, we include the artwork, in accordance with exactly the language spelled out in WP:NFCC#8. We actually are not necessarily interested in the "analytical depth" to which you are attaching great importance. The art is a counterpart to the artist. Just as the text of the article pertains to the artist, so too does the image of the art pertain to the artist. The reader perceives the image of the art in our article experientially. No intermediary is needed. It is not for instance necessary to have an art critic commenting on the art. Therefore no source is required. (Verification is required; reliable sources have to attribute the work of art to the subject of the biography.) No explanations or interpretations or opinions are required. A biography of a visual artist is always closely related to the visual imagery of the artwork itself. It would be to the detriment of such an article to omit imagery that would allow the reader to gain a first hand experience of the artwork. The intermediaries that you have been arguing for are of secondary importance. Of primary importance to the reader is seeing the art. Bus stop (talk) 18:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that's just not correct. If we were an art appreciation guide, then yes, I agree, artist and art are linked. We're an encyclopedia; that link is not required and including it is original research. We can talk about artists without showing their work. Only until the low barrier where sources start describing the artist in terms of their artwork is that link forged well enough to justify the use of an image. This follows throughout the entire encyclopedia's NFCC policy. Again, I'm stressing a point: the barrier is low, and very easy to meet if the artist is truly notable for being an artist. This also is meant to make sure we're talking about indiviudally creative artists as opposed to those that are only notable for doing work on "corporate" art like comics, animated shows, etc. where they're not able to express their own direct creativity. What is being asked for is not that hard to meet, but it just needs to be met. --MASEM (t) 20:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—you say "If we were an art appreciation guide, then yes, I agree, artist and art are linked."

In the instance of a biography of a visual artist whose sole notability rests on the visual artworks he/she produces, the visual artist and the visual art are linked.

You are elaborating on policy. The reason we are having this discussion is because you said "TEB728 is absolutely right that there is no set number, and "zero" can be a perfectly acceptable answer." The actual wording in policy would not seem to support such a statement. I think WP:NFCC#8 is fairly clear when it speaks of "WP:NFCC#8". What it says about "contextual significance" is the following: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

If the article is a biography of a visual artist whose sole reason for notability is the visual art that he or she produces, then omitting the visual art would certainly seem to be detrimental to the article. Conversely including imagery representative of the visual art can be understood to increase the reader's understanding of the topic. Bus stop (talk) 03:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

You are still missing my point. Let me start with this: on any article, "zero" is the minimum necessary non-free images we allow. No article is entitled to using non-free images, period; all non-free use must pass every NFCC policy.

Now, if we are talking about an artist who is notable for his art (this is not all artists, as I will point out in a moment), then there is likely discussion from the sources that lend to the artist's notability to justify the use of an example or represent work of art. Notability requires secondary sources, which tend to be analytic or critical of the person (by definition of secondary sources), and ergo there's a good chance that we can use the art in relation to those sources. This is why I keep calling it a very low barrier to meet. You're making it like I'm rejecting any art, but I'm not. I'm emphasizing that you need to meet certain conditions to have an example work of art, and this is likely the case for artists that are notable for their art. That meets with your statement on "artists known solely for their art".

This is not true of any artist. There are what I would call "corporate artists" that do storyboard or animation work for someone else's creative work. The artist may be notable because they have worked on those works, but that does not make their specific work notable, and thus there's no need for a non-free image. There are people that aren't professional artists but do it as a hobby but are notable for something completely different. In this case, we wouldn't need an image of the art in general.

This is why I'm insistent that we have to start with the assumption that we do not always non-free to illustrate any specify area. "Zero" is always the minimum amount for any article. The second part of NFCC#8, regarding omission being harmful, is a key factor that has to be considered. For artists that are solely notable for their art, that's probably not going to be a problem to meet to allow one image. But it doesn't apply to all artists. --MASEM (t) 04:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

You say "The second part of NFCC#8, regarding omission being harmful, is a key factor that has to be considered. For artists that are solely notable for their art, that's probably not going to be a problem to meet to allow one image."

It is not "probably not going to be a problem". It is never going to be a problem because WP:NFCC#8 allows for the inclusion of non-free images based on "Contextual significance". If we are talking about a visual artist whose sole basis for notability is his or her visual art we have contextual significance. If there is no other reason for notability other than the artworks then it is the artworks that make the artist notable. How could the omission of the artworks be anything other than "harmful"?

You say "This is why I keep calling it a very low barrier to meet".

There is no barrier to meet. The "barrier" is already met simply by meeting the notability requirements already in place. Bus stop (talk) 00:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely wrong. Notability is not a guarantee for needing an image. An artist can be notable without the user needed to see their work to understand that notability. That's why I keep pointing out the second part of NFCC#8: if the omission of a non-free image does not impair the reader's understanding of the article, a non-free image is not required. This is a required test to consider, in addition to the first part of NFCC#8, which is very easy to show true. All images used for an artist's art must meet all parts of NFCC. --MASEM (t) 02:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Your argument is that the tail wags the dog. You say "Notability is not a guarantee for needing an image." Notability in fact assures that the article should have an image of the artwork—if the artist is solely noted for being an artist. This is because in that circumstance the artwork is contextually significant. The artwork in that circumstance bears an important relationship to the subject of the article. The reverse is not the case—the artwork is not of interest to the reader because of who made it. The artwork, for the purposes of such an article, is of greater importance than the artist. But the article is given the name of the artist as a title because it is the entire output of that artist that is under consideration in such an article. When the artist is noteworthy for nothing else than the output of art it is not incorrect to think of it as an article on the art of the person whose name is in the title. As such it is of obvious importance to provide the reader with some representative examples of that artist's work. Policy applies perfectly here: "WP:NFCC#8: Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding". Bus stop (talk) 04:14, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you on the core point: if an artist is only notable because of the artwork he has done, the likelihood of an image being appropriate is very very high. You still need to show the sources that would both support that notability, as well as the analytic and critical discussion of the art in question. A truly notable artist, this is no barrier to image use. What will happen, and why I'm insistent on exactly what NFCC#8 means here, is that people game notability. We could have a fresh artist out of school that just happened to have their work appear at the Met and listed as part of an exhibit but with no real discussion of their work. Knowing AFD, people will insist this artist is therefore notable, so lets assume that fact can't be changed and the article is kept. That does not guarentee that we can allow that work of art to be included, because there's zero discussion of the art relative to the artist beyond attaching a name to a picture. "Omission would harm the reader's understanding" does not come into play, and ergo there is no loss to the reader if we don't show the image.

90% of the artists who are primarily notable for being artist - this is not the case, and we can use an example of their art with appropriate notability sourcing. But its not universal and that's the point that needs to be clear. Being an artist does not assure that you get a non-free image for an example of your art on WP; there needs to be just cause for that. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—from where are you deriving that we would need to show sources relating to "the analytic and critical discussion of the art in question"? Bus stop (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Stop the freakin' wikilawyering, you are running around in circles. It is established practice spelled out by "critical commentary" on NFCI, and what is the usual test of NFCC#8 for image review at FAC or at FFD. No, it's not spelling out word for word in any policy, but that's what it's come to mean and is standard practice. No, it doesn't need to be spelled out that way in policy either. End of story. --MASEM (t) 06:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—it is not a matter of there being exact language—there is no language, relevant to this discussion, that is remotely like the language you are using, found in policy. You have asserted that there needs to be "analytic and critical discussion of the art in question." Of course there does not. No such requirement exists, relative to the case that we are discussing. If we are talking about a visual artist whose sole basis for notability is her/his output of visual art—then there is absolutely no requirement found in policy for "analytic and critical discussion of the art in question." If you are of the opinion that there is such a requirement found in policy, please quote some of the policy language that you feel is relevant and please provide a link to the page that contains that policy. Bus stop (talk) 12:23, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is, I have told you several times. NFCC#8's requirement is used in practical situations (FFD, FAC) by having some sourced text in the article talk about the image in more than a non-passing mention. Try to use any non-free image without discussing it in the body of the text as to why it is necessary, and it will be rejected. This is because, if the image isn't discussed by sources with any detail in the body of the text, then its omission will not harm the reader's experience per the second half of NFCC#8, regardless of how much it can help the reader's understanding to include. And to assure that omission would be harmful, the discussion must have some depth of understanding to it, and not just a simple factual statement with no commentary. NFCC#8 is a two part requirement and both parts must be met, not just one. That's how it is enforced across Wikipedia, and thus may not be spelled out in policy but certainly is the practical current practice.

I'm being extremely clear that the second part of NFCC#8 is what you need to meet, not just the first part (they both must be met). I can appreciate that for a reader coming here for art discussion would consider having an image somewhat necessary, but that's a small fraction of the reader population. Most readers are not going to be students of the arts; presenting a work of art by an artist on the artist's page without any commentary in the text about the art or art style is not going to help the average reader to understand the article, and certainly not going to harm those same readers if it is omitted.

No article of any type is immediately allowed to use non-free media, regardless if the article is on a visual-themed topic like artists. The free content mission must be put at the forefront when creating articles, and that is why the NFCC exist, and thus why we don't just toss images up for any old topic. Stating that an artist works in a visual medium and thus must have an image of their art is an empathetic argument that has no legs at Wikipedia; artist's art can be found through references and external links while maintaining the free content mission of WP. From an encyclopedia's point of view, an artist is simply another person, and we write their article like a biography first and foremost, not as an artist as one would find in an art appreciation guide. If sources go into the person's work as an artist into any detail - which should happen if the artist is notable for being an artist - then we start talking about images, because we can expect sources to talk about the person's art or art style, and omitting an image or so there may be harmful to the reader's understanding. But if the best we can do from sources is a one line sentence talking about their art career, that's not going to cut it; you don't need an image of their art to talk about the person in that case. The statement that "An article on a artist that creates visual art needs to have an image of the art to allow the reader to make the connection between artist and art" has absolutely no strength on Wikipedia. There's lots of other fields on WP that would probably love to use non-free works as examples for their articles based on a similar logic but don't because of the strength of NFCC's requirements.

I agree on the basic statement that if we have an article on a person who's primary notability is being an artist, there's an extremely high chance that we would be able to justify the use of a piece of art from the person based on the same sources that provide notability. But you must understand that that agreement is not because "they're an artist, we need a picture of their art to visually connect the artist to art" , because that statement violates NFCC#8. I agree because sources for notability are nearly always the same ones that confirm discussion of the art of the artists, and thus justify that omitting an image may be harmful to the reader, but it's not a universal statement for all artists, period. But we cannot run WP's non-free content policy based on encompassing, empathetic statements. Everything is about the sources; if the sources don't follow, then we can't follow ourselves as a tertiary source. --MASEM (t) 13:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Masem—I believe that only two points in policy have been discussed so far in this thread. They can be found at WP:NFCI and WP:NFCC. Let's look at them:

Point in policy # ONE: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

Point in policy # TWO: "Paintings and other works of visual art: For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school."

If you wish to bring other excerpts from policy to bear on this discussion I would appreciate it if you posted them here with a link to the page on which they are found.

I have raised the issue of an artist whose only notability hinges on his artwork. Let us say that this is a visual artist, the subject of a biography. I feel that both of the above points in policy (Point One and Point Two) support the inclusion of a representative example of the artist's artwork—even if that image has to be a non-free image. My contention is that the above policies are allowances under "fair use" provisions that are applicable to the situation I describe (an artist solely notable for their artwork) and that no other restrictions apply.

You have argued that some sort of text must be found in a source relating to the topic of the image as a prerequisite to our including that image in our article—but you have not provided any policy language supporting your assertion in that regard. Furthermore in the situation that I describe, it would seem to me that such a requirement is illogical and even possibly counterproductive. In the situation I describe the purpose of the image is just to provide a representative example of the artist's work. What this means is that there cannot be a "wrong" (or even slightly incorrect) image—provided it is verified as being produced by the subject of the biography. It seems to me totally besides the point to expect text—in the article, and in a source—to accompany such an image. This is, in my opinion, a meaningless and pointless requirement. Such a requirement is not found in any policy language. You have characterized this requirement as a "low barrier". I don't believe any such "barrier" exists at all. That is because of our policies relating to "contextual significance" and "notability". The sort of image we are discussing belongs in the article by dint of the fact that the artist has established credentials for an article based on the sort of artwork represented in the image. You are presenting a requirement for text accompanying imagery as an ironclad and inviolable rule—when in fact that supposed "rule" is not found in any policy language at all. Your other argument concerning Point # One ("Contextual significance") is that the omission of such an image is not "detrimental" to the article. But again—the sole reason for notability is the artist's artwork—anything else in the article I think has to be seen as of secondary importance—year of birth (of the artist), institute of education, career trajectory, city in which artist presently works or resides. Omitting that which is of primary importance I see as "detrimental". An image of the artwork, in the "context" of an artist solely noted for that artwork, would be "detrimental" if omitted.

I think that "Point in policy # Two" (posted above) is also supportive of the inclusion of an image—even a non-free image, in the biography of an artist only notable for being an artist. "Point in policy # Two" though is especially applicable to articles on for instance art movements, periods in art, art techniques, and articles on art terms. These types of subjects often need illustration, but unlike the situation involving the biography of an artist that I have been describing above, there is the real possibility of an "incorrect" image. In cases such as art movements, periods in art, art techniques, and articles on art terms, one can mistakenly "illustrate" with the wrong illustration. Simple verification suffices in the biography of the artist. But a more extensively sourced confirmation of the link between the image and its "identity" has to be established in these other sorts of articles because the "identity" can be of a more nuanced nature. Therefore what I'm saying is that I am more sympathetic to the sourcing requirements that you are asking for in the instance of articles on for instance art movements, periods in art, art techniques, and articles on art terms. But I find a similar requirement in the case of the biographies of individual artists to be pointless. It is even counterproductive: such a requirement in my opinion introduces an unwanted distortion and without any offsetting benefits. Editors at these articles (biographies of individual artist notable for just their artwork) should have at their discretion the option of choosing images of artworks based on their own criteria. Whether or not a source seems to say something that can be "illustrated" by a given image is only a minor consideration in that situation. There is a point beyond which rigid notions of policy requirements become an impediment to article development. Additionally, as I have already pointed out, we do not find in policy a requirement that non-free images be somehow associated with sourced text. Therefore I do not think we should be requiring text to somehow relate to images of artwork in biographies of artists solely notable for their art. Bus stop (talk) 05:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You simply do not get it. You are trying to wikilaywer out of basic NFCC requirements, even after I agree to your basic point.

Your point 1, referring to NFCC#8, can only be satisfied if the image's relative importance to the topic is discussed in the article. You cannot simply drop in the image, with no textual context, and say it meets NFCC#8, because without any discussion of the image, the second half of NFCC#8 is failed to be met; if the article doesn't discuss the image's relevance, then the reader's understanding will not be harmed with its omission. Period. This is the strict standard for all non-free content use across WP, and is non-negotiable in evaluating whether the standard is met.

Your point 2, which does apply, requires critical commentary, which is taken as sourced discussion of the image's relevance. Yes, you are likely right that it does apply to artist's art on their page, but there's a requirement of critical commentary that must be met before it can be used. "Critical commentary" is a vague term of art, but you should be able to see that the "Critical" aspect means we're looking at secondary information, not straight facts. We can't create secondary information without introducing OR, which means we have to turn to secondary sources to establish that for us. And to that end, I agree with the general statement that an artist that is only notable for being an artist will have sourcing that would support the inclusion of the image. It's not a 100% assurance, but more than likely to be true for a large number of cases. --MASEM (t) 05:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You say that an image must be discussed in an article. Where does it say this? You say that an image must be accompanied by critical commentary. Where does it say this? We are fully aware that the phrase "critical commentary" is found in the following policy language:

"Paintings and other works of visual art: For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school."

The above can be paraphrased as follows: Images of paintings and other works of art may be included in order to illustrate critical commentary as may be found in an article, or in order to illustrate a particular technique in art, or in order to illustrate a particular "school" of art.

The above does not say that "critical commentary" must accompany the inclusion of all images. I am asking you to show me where in our policy we find the insistence that you are asserting exists that "discussion" aka "critical commentary" must exist in the article in order to justify the inclusion of an image?

You are going on at great length about the meaning of "critical commentary" when I am asking you where we find a requirement for critical commentary in the first place. You say that "'Critical commentary' is a vague term of art". It may be "vague" or it may be "well-defined" but my question is where is it found in policy that the inclusion of an image requires accompanying critical commentary?

Similarly you are saying that an image can only be included in an article if that image is "discussed" in the article. Where are you finding that in policy? "Discussion" and "critical commentary" are related terms. A reference in policy to one would likely encompass the other. But you are failing to point to anyplace in policy that suggests that the inclusion of images is dependent upon the accompaniment of discussion/critical commentary in the article.

You are insisting that these requirements are "non-negotiable". Doesn't this very strongly suggest an articulation in policy? Policy requires a degree of transparency so that it is accessible to all. Bus stop (talk) 14:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Images of paintings and other works of art may be included in order to illustrate critical commentary as may be found in an article, or in order to illustrate a particular technique in art, or in order to illustrate a particular "school" of art.. No, that is not how that sentence can be paraphrased, it is not or. Art may be included to illustrate critical commentary in an article, period. There are no special cases, though commonly when discussing a technique or school of art, there will likely be critical commentary about it to allow an image to be used. But articles on techniques or schools do not gain any special privilege to use art if there's no critical commentary on those aspects.

I can't point you to any other policy page that explains the need for documentation, but this is how all images are reviewed when it comes to consensus discussions at two primary places: FAC and FFD. I also point to the various unacceptable uses WP:NFC#UUI, particularly numbers 5 and 9. Another point is what the WMF has said in their licensing resolution, that non-frees may be used to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works. In how en.wiki has approached that, "complement" has been treated as requiring sourced discussion about the image within the articles as to make the image complement the text. I also point to this dispatch [2] that is commonly used as a starting point for NFCC discussion (see the point about "Pertinent discussion" where NFCC#8 is discussed) If you really insist that because its actually not documented anywhere, then we need to add that language, but I assure you, that is the prevailing way non-free content is handled.

Basically it comes down to this. If there is no discussion at all about an image in an article, its use is decorative, period. If it is a free image, that's okay though we are careful to go overboard on decoration; if it non-free, it is absolutely not allowed per NFCC#8 since removing the image has no impact on the reader's understanding.

I can't explain any further; this is how it is through all FAC and FFD I witness. If you want to prove something different, take an article on an artist where their work is not discussed by reliable sources, include one of their works of art as a image, and then pass it at FAC. You'll see where consensus stands on such image use. --MASEM (t) 14:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

So weit die Füße tragen - Image (which rationale for PD)

File:BauerJMSoweitdieFuessetragen2.JPG‎ Hi, - I uploaded the above image in the article on Cornelius Rost, which is in Germany in the Public Domain, and so I tagged it as PD as well. But I can't find an appropriate rationale. I'm now using the Fair-Use rationale. Which one is to use? regards--Bylot (talk) 15:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

There was no need to upload that image at all because the image used on the German wiki is hosted on the commons as File:BauerJMSoweitdieFuessetragen.jpg and you should use that one. We try to avoid duplicates. BTW, the image is either used under a fair-use claim because it is copyright or it is in the public domain so it is free; it cannot be both. I have tagged it for deletion because of the commons image and placed that on in the article. ww2censor (talk) 18:19, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, - thanks. Sorry, I'm not so familiar with ALL the Wikipedia-rules.

No problem with deletion. regards--Bylot (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Question on Image Tag

Hi, I was wondering if it is OK to use the {{PD-Art}} for File:Michelangelo - Sistine Chapel ceiling - Lunette "Hezekiah - Manasseh - Amon".jpg. Thanks, Magister Scienta^talk 05:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Images from great uncle

Hey all,

I inherited a couple photo albums from a great grand uncle. Going through them I found one that contains a fairly impressive collection of images of the Panama canal being constructed. I my grand uncle was photographer. I'd like to release to the commons. Can someone advise on copyright concerns here? Obviously, not my own work, and the author has not been dead for more than 70 years. NickCT (talk) 06:58, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Find who inherited the author's rights of the photographer. If it is you and if you are the only heir, just upload the photos to Wikimedia Commons with the free license of your choice. If it is not you or if you are not the only heir, ask the copyright holder(s) if they agree to release the photos under a free license (you can suggest to them the specific license you think they will like). If they agree to the release, ask them to upload the photos to Commons, or upload the photos to Commons and ask the copyright holder(s) to confirm the chosen license for those photos with a clear declaration through the OTRS procedure. -- Asclepias (talk) 15:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Sounds like this is going to take some research. Thanks for the response. NickCT (talk) 20:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of hi-res in history

Landfyoung (talk · contribs) is asking for help at User talk:Landfyoung. As I understand it, he's willing to grant a CC-BY license for the low-res version of the image, but wants the original hi-res upload removed from the history. Is this do-able? -- John of Reading (talk) 11:54, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

There's already a tag on the description page about the deletion of the 2008 version. The 7-days period is over, so now you can ask any sysop to delete that version. After that, the smaller version can remain in fair use with a fair use rationale, or if the copyright holder prefers to release it under a free license, she can do that. (Or I suppose she could specify that she does not object to the use of the higher resolution version in fair use.) -- Asclepias (talk) 16:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Adding an image taken by photographer friend

I would like to add an image of a historic marker to a Wikipedia article. A friend, who lives near the site, took the photo and sent it to me with permission to use it with the article.

I understand how to list it on the page but am confused about copyright tags. Can anyone please give me some advice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smoke321 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Strictly speaking because your friend took the photo only he can decide under what licence to release the image. It is not that we don't believe you but many uploaders make false claims about images they upload. We appreciate your honesty. Your friend can decide to release it into the public domain or require attribution and the most usual copyright tags for these are {{PD-author}} or {{Attribution}} but it would be best if he confirms his permission by emailing our OTRS team directly by following the procedure you will find at WP:CONSENT. In the meantime you could upload the image, fill in the {{information}} template completely and also add the template {{OTRS pending}} to the image file to let us know permission will arrive. It can take some time for that to be processed. Hope that helps. Good luck. ww2censor (talk) 22:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Screen shot and intro/splash screen?

I've added a screenshot to Dragonriders of Pern (video game) but I'd also like to add something to the info box. Can a splash screen appear in the same article? Maury Markowitz (talk) 19:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Box art is nearly the universal infobox image for a video game; if there was no game box, then a splash screen would work, but as this appears to be a boxed game, then you should stay with that. Yes, it will be non-free but that's acceptable per NFCI#1. --MASEM (t) 20:04, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

":"File:3 Minutes World Silence Logo.jpg

Why is myy wikimedia logo is not accepted at present? I have had several emails, via Wikimedia from user magogtheogre from you on my email address (<email removed for privacy>). This user has also written to me via my talk page on Wikipedia, querying a few things, which I thought I afterwards corrected on 20 December, 2011.

I received an email from your Permissions team, signed Scott Cameron, on 21 December, 2011. This said that I had given permission to use this logo - File:3_Minutes_World_Silence Logo.jpg under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)License). This logo is also on my website http://www.worldsilence.com title page. Signed Mary Cassini User:Aweaver2, 20 December 2011.

I hereby give authority to Wikipedia and Wikimedia permitting reuse under the CC-BY-SA/3.0 License.

Mary Cassini, creator and owner of 3 Minutes World Silence webpage http://www.worldsilence.com The index page of this website contains the 3 Minutes World Silence image, which I also created.

Note: I would like to get this matter corrected on your websites before January 1st, 2012, as I am at present sending out media releases acknowleging your co-operation.

Mary Cassini Aweaver2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aweaver2 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If you think as a result of communication from Magog the Ogre that the logo is not accepted, you can contact him/her at his/her user page or email. In any case do not send out media releases acknowleging our "co-operation." Wikipedia does not "co-operate" with events; rather it allows articles on events and other subjects that have received substantial coverage in reliable sources. Also I have removed your email address above to protect you from being bombarded by spam. —teb728 t c 04:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a question; seems the bot needs to be fixed

Please see my talk page. Kernel.package (talk) 09:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

The bot is correct: All images MUST have an “image copyright tag.” The fact that you can’t find a suitable one may indicate that the image is not usable. Do I understand correctly the use is only to provide a reference for the article? If so, the scan is not needed: you can simply provide a footnote to the article, citing the newspaper, date, and title. If it has some other use: Exactly what permission did Marrison grant? If it was only for use on Wikipedia, I’m sorry but Wikipedia accepts permission only which allows reuse by anyone for anything including commercial use. If he has granted that kind of permission, enter the tag corresponding to the specific free license he granted. See WP:COPYREQ for how to handle his permission. If he has not granted a free license, sorry but we almost certainly can’t use it. —teb728 t c 21:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

"one of these templates"

I got an automatic message on my Talk page, directing me here. The message says:

It was really helpful of you to you to upload File:MSL Serie EN Global IB RWT NoGIA Adjust.gif. However, we need to properly format the image license information in order to keep and use new images.

If you can edit the description and add one of these templates, that would be great. If you're not sure how or would like some help, please ask us at the media copyright questions page and we'll be happy to assist you.

Thanks again!Template:Z136 --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 10:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

It isn't clear to me what is being requested. What are "these templates?"

As I noted on the discussion page for the image, the site from which I downloaded it gives permission for use as follows:

Figures marked "Aviso", are copyright Cnes/CLS, but please feel free to use them, conditional on the figures not being altered, and their source being acknowledged, and with a link to this site where possible.

So, what do I need to do? NCdave (talk) 10:23, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

The templates are those listed at WP:ICT and its subpages. I’ll leave the bot owner a note that the bot didn’t make that clear. Permission to use without modification is not acceptable to Wikipedia: Wikipedia requires a free license, which allows derivative works. So the image could be used only under Wikipedia’s highly restrictive non-free content policy. One of the restrictions is that non-free content may be used only if the use significantly increases reader understanding. This image would be nice to have, but it is not necessary for reader understanding. BTW, the page at the source link that you provide does not contain the image. Sorry —teb728 t c 19:53, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If this image was created from commonly found information, not copyright information, then someone can make an image based on that data and release it freely but without permission, under a free licence we cannot use this image. ww2censor (talk) 04:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Tag Trouble

I am having trouble picking a correct tag for this image File:Donut-shop-serato-2lp-slipmats.jpg (LonerXL (talk) 16:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC))

• {{non-free album cover}} would appear to be the proper tag for this. ww2censor (talk) 17:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• • Thank you so much(LonerXL (talk) 17:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC))

Referendum poster

Hi! I would like to use this image in Croatian independence referendum, 1991 article. The image depicts a promotional poster used by the Government of Croatia in the run-up to the referendum. Does that image fit fair use policy and should it be then uploaded to the en wiki as "historically important photo for fair use" or in some other way? At this time I don't know who the author of the poster was. Thanks!--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually it appears that the poster is not copyrightable under the Croatian law. Article 8 Section 2.1 of the Copyright Act says that official works published in order to inform the public are not subject to copyright protection. I'm unsure what type of licensing should be applied in the commons though.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I found Template:PD-Croatia-exempt in the meantime at the Commons, so that question is no longer wanting an answer. Thanks anyway!--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Naim Zeqiri

Dmv .Naim Zeqiri i lindur me 02.10.1980 ne komunene e vitise kosove. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmvnaim (talk • contribs) 04:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, you were born on 02.10.1980 in Viti, Kosovo, but do you have a media copyright question?

OK, keni lindur në 02.10.1980 në Vitise Kosove, por ju e keni një pyetje autorit media? —teb728 t c 05:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

PD Logos?

I have a question regarding five similar logos:

• File:FIRST Logo.svg
• File:FRClogo.png
• File:FLLlogo.jpg
• File:FIRST Tech challange logo.png
• File:Jr FLL logo.jpg

If I understand correctly, {{PD-textlogo}} should be able to apply to the first four, but not the fifth due to the styling of "Jr." Is this interpretation correct? Chris857 (talk) 20:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Even handwritten fonts are non-copyrightable, and ergo, just the "JR" part alone would technically be PD due to lack of originality. The overall logo, on the other hand, consists of a lot more creative elements than what we'd normally like to call PD, but it's at the cusp of that. I would call it non-free to be on the safe side. --MASEM (t) 20:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Omission of notice and violation of agreement?

I have read Copyright Act of 1976. If published in 1978 without copyright notice, does omission of notice violate "All rights reserved"? Does "All rights reserved" qualify as "expressed written agreement that works bear prescribed notice"? For example, 1979 photo of Taxi and 1981 Luke and Laura General Hospital photo do not have the copyright notice, but it bears "For editorial use only. All rights reserved. Is that a written agreement that works must bear a notice? --George Ho (talk) 07:58, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Metropolitan Cathedral image

Hi, Many thanks for pointing out [see below] that I have not entered all the licensing information necessary. I have now done this to the best ofmy ability. The Image concerned is mine. I have not registered Copyright anywhere but I took the photo on my camera and I have entered the date and my name in the relevant boxes. Is this enough? Thanks, Gastao

• I have edited that image-page and set permission = CC-by-SA 3.0, and source={{own}}, with ISO-format date=2009-08-25. However, you might wish to change the license, as permission={{PD-self}}, to indicate there are no restrictions on image use. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

---

Dear Gastao,

The Wikipedia page "User talk:Gastao" has been changed on 29 December 2011 by MGA73, with the edit summary: Notification: tagging for deletion of File:St Mary's Metropolitan Cathedral Edinburgh.jpg. (TW)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gastao&diff=0&oldid=456240188 for all changes since your last visit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gastao for the current revision.

To contact the editor, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MGA73

Note that additional changes to the page "User talk:Gastao" will not result in any further notifications, until you have logged in and visited the page.

Your friendly Wikipedia notification system — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gastao (talk • contribs) 10:34, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyright clearance question

File:Antagonist 4.jpg File:Antagonist LOGO 3.jpg File:Antagonist LOGO 2.jpg I have permission to use the images, from the creator of the Antagonist Movement. How do I cite this so that it does not get flagged for removal? Kbrzoznowski (talk) 16:28, 30 December 2011 (UTC)