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January 12

Calculation of Flourecent power usage.

Good morning.

I did a liitle experiment with a flouresent light and just want to share my findings in oder for you to add it to you encyclopedia.

I wanted to determine the amount of watage my light draws and the only 2 things i could measure were Voltage and Current. I then connected my multimeter to the light and measured 240V and 0.196A if i calcultae the power it is 240*0.196=47W. which is very close to the 40W tube installed. I then wanted to see if the system will draw any power without the tube inserted, because if you disconect a normal globe from the socket there is no current flowing, and this is where the suprise came in.

My multimeter showed current of 0.285A without any tube connected. this means that without the tube the system is drawing 68W which is 21W more. I realised this is the initial start up current with the tube connected.

In other words the balast and starter uses power continuesly without the bulbs connected. This then shows that it does not help to remove a tube from the fittings thinking that you will save power, the balast will keep on drawing power trying to start a tube that does not exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.208.40.36 (talk) 12:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your measurements do not take any account of the phase discrepancy between your measured voltage and amperage. See AC power for details, especially the mention of "wattless power". Dbfirs 12:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please note also that we are not in the business of publishing Original Research such as this. That is the domain of other organisations. We aim to record established information. The policy article Wikipedia:No original research may be worth reading. --jjron (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do not scold the questioner; just provide referenced answers,and steer him to relevant articles. His calculations of volts times amps for AC result in "volt-amps" which are a combination of real power and the "reactive power" 90 degrees out of phase. It is surprising (to me) that the fixture would draw more current with the bulb disconnected. "Guide to energy management" by Capehart et al(2003), page 180 says that "rapid-start" ballasts continue to consume current when the lamps are removed, but "instant start" ballasts stop consuming current when the lamps are removed. Some ballasts are plain old magnetic coils, but modern ones are more efficient electronic ballasts. "Handbook of energy efficiency and renewable energy" by Kreith et al (2007) p12-38 says that rapid start ballasts apply continuous low voltage to the filaments to heat the cathode, as well as a spike of high voltage to start the arc so the lamp conducts current through the gas. Instant start lamps do not preheat the cathode. Thus you might have any of these kinds of ballasts in your lamp. Edison (talk) 04:28, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is the concept of power factor: you need to size your wires for the volt-amp rating of the load, while the generator needs to be sized for the (usually smaller) wattage rating. Fluorescent lights tend to have a very poor power factor. --Carnildo (talk) 02:01, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Generators certainly produce vars as well as watts. The ability to produce watts is decreased by the production of vars, in a nonlinear way. A utility scale generator can be spun up to synchronous speed with a pony engine and used as a synchronous condenser, producing only vars for reactive support of a power system, (keeping the voltage up) even if the boiler has been decommissioned. Edison (talk) 04:28, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does your "synchronous condenser" use its reserve of energy (half moment of inertia times angular velocity squared) to "even out" the power variations across one cycle? Dbfirs 01:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once an auxiliary motor has it rotating at synchronous speed, it acts like a generator of vars, powered by watts. It provides reactive support in a better way that a capacitor bank, which produces less voltage support as the system voltage drops, setting a utility up for voltage collapse. It could also be used to lower system voltage, but a far easier way to do that would be through action of the voltage regulators on the generators. Edison (talk) 15:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cannot locate a topic and need help

Hi Wikipedia friends, I need to locate some background material about racial segregation in the United States. I have tried to find it myself on your site without success. Any help in directing me to some pages will be greatly appreciated.Lightingcandles2 (talk) 12:56, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Racial segregation in the United States, not too hard that one. --Viennese Waltz 13:00, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

January 13

Hobby colliding with economical activity

Can a hobby, like fishing or hunting, collide with a similar economical activity? I understand that fishing is mostly an industrialized and boring field, but high sea tuna fish fishing could be interesting without an economical reward and the same applies to some forms of hunting, when the targets are wolves or wild porks. 88.9.214.197 (talk) 02:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't quite understand your question. Here are two possible meanings:

1) "Can some people's hobbies interfere with professionals in that field ?" (Yes, they certainly can, and vice-versa.)

2) "Can I find a hobby where I can also make money ?" (Yes, you can.) StuRat (talk) 05:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tuna is a common game fish for deep-sea anglers, see Recreational_boat_fishing#Offshore. Otherwise, StuRat's request for clarification is relevent to your more general question. Please let us know what kinds of hobbies you have in mind, and what your goal is. --Jayron32 05:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arts and crafts, such as knitting, painting, embroidery, furniture making, dress-making, can turn from hobby into a source of income. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To me, the question is about a possible conflict between fishing or hunting and another economic activity carried on in the same place. In the Lake District of England, there is a conflict between anglers and people using speedboats as fish don't like to be in the same place as powered vehicles. My apologies if this isn't what you mean! --TammyMoet (talk) 09:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Judging by the tuna and wolves comments, I think StuRat understood it correctly with his second option. In which case, the answer is definitely a "yes" and it's a huge, wide field. Think of any professional sport, for starters. Unless, of course, by "economical activity" you mean something specifically industrial. In which case, there are hordes of cottage industries or small scale market gardening that would count. --Dweller (talk) 09:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

StuRat's 2) is what I was searching for. What are my options of outdoor hobbies that would also bring some money? But, please not strange solution like "OVNI spotting and selling the pictures." 88.9.214.197 (talk) 14:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other than sport or market gardening? Topiary. Painting (both buildings and pictures). --Dweller (talk) 15:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think gardening or small scale farming may qualify. Many people grow their own foods and sell them at farmer's markets. There are also people who do arts and crafts and sell them at craft fairs as a source of income. Depending on your level of involvement, these options could be either a secondary or primary source of income. Another good recommendation is to turn your hobby into your job. Find what you like to do, that doesn't feel like work, and find a way to make that your primary source of income. If you like to work outside, maybe work as a park ranger or similar work may appeal to you. --Jayron32 14:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even "small scale" farming may be impacted by law (local, state and federal). Check first. Collect (talk) 15:02, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A classic book (from 1935) on making some money from a hobby is "How to ride your hobby," by Archie Frederick Collins. It is widely available in libraries and via Amazon.com and other used book sources. By "riding" he means not just fix up a motorcycle or some such, but rather use your skills at fixing electronics, car repair, repairing small gas engines, pottery, art, music, sewing, making jewelry, photography, writing, woodworking, welding, gardening etc. to make money. If Collins were alive today, he might revise the book to include designing Iphone aps, designing websites, computer geekery such as removing viruses or adding memory and bigger hard drives, Photoshopping to improve or restore photos, recording music, and computerized home automation. In 1942 in the US, James Caesar Petrillo, head of the 130,000 member American Federation of Musicians, objected to amateur musicians (such as high school bands) marching in parades or giving public concerts, or performing on the radio, since they were stealing the bread from the mouths of professional musicians. He wanted a "standby band' of professional musicians to be paid to do nothing while amateur musicians played a radio concert, and suggested that towns should hire bands of professional musicians to march in their 4th of July parade. He neglected the fact that many members of his union, such as the Dorsey brothers, or himself, started out as teenage amateur musicians giving free concerts and later working for pay, taking bread from the mouths of older professional musicians, that amateur playing was the common route to becoming a professional player, and that few amateurs would continue their studies if there were few opportunities to play for the public. Etsy.com is a marketplace where crafters and artisans sell handmade things. Often the prices are low, since hobbyists are just trying to break even on the expenses of their hobby, which can create a problem for full time professional crafters trying to make a living selling similar products. The hourly pay may get driven too low to be a "living wage." The pro's work has to stand out above the work of amateurs, just as a skilled painter's work has to somehow be better than the daubings of amateurs, who are content to sell their art and recoup the cost of paint and canvas. In British jump racing, there are both professional and amateur jockeys, with rules governing the work of the amateurs to leave some income for the pros. Sadly, Wikipedia has no article about amateur jockeys, and no mention of them in the Jockey article. Someone familiar with British racing could make a contribution by filling that void. As for fishing, one ancestor of mine was a professional fisherman who would sell his catch to the proprietor of a boat dock, who would ice the fish down and then sell them to men who were taking a fishing vacation, so they could go home and proudly show of the big fish they caught, when in reality they might have been drinking and cavorting with floozies rather than fishing. In this way the interests of pro and amateur fishermen meshed nicely. Edison (talk) 16:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps hiking could be made to pay, say if inspecting something along the way, like fences, weather stations, etc. Hopefully you could just report any problems and somebody else would go and fix them. Let's say they stop getting the signal from a remote weather station, you could go find it and determine what's wrong, like if a tree fell on it or if it looks intact, but just stopped transmitting. StuRat (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Blue stains on artificial vagina

My toy vagina developed several dark blue stains some time ago, that aren't washable. Why is that and how to remove them?--178.181.123.34 (talk) 02:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[I've removed the first two answers and moved them to the talk page's already ongoing thread about that sort of answer.]

Such toys come in a bunch of different proprietary materials, so the answer would be different depending on what brand the toy is. You'd really have to talk to the manufacturer about which solvents are safe to use on it. Many solvents would dissolve the surface of the toy. (Which I assume would ruin it's "feel".) APL (talk) 04:11, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have you by any chance lent it to a male Smurf ? (One can certainly understand the need, what with only the one Smurfette and not many other females.) StuRat (talk) 05:55, 13 January 2012 (UTC) [reply]

You can purchase special cleaners that will not damage the plastics, probably from the same place as you originally obtained your toy. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you know they aren't washable, you must have some 'care instructions' or similar. Do they provide a clue how to clean the device? If not, as APL said, you'd need to consult with the manufacturer or perhaps as Colapeninsula hinted at, see if the place of purchase or another shop selling sex toys has some idea. Alternatively, depending on the age and cost, perhaps it's worh simply discarding the toy and purchasing a new one. Consider using a condom in the future to keep the toy clean [1]. Nil Einne (talk) 13:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I am making the assumption when you said 'aren't washable', you meant the toy isn't washable. If you meant you've tried washing the stains with soap and water and they didn't come off, you may want to clarify. Nil Einne (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

American flag with 13 stars in a circle...

Sorry, don't know the correct term for this flag - it's an older US flag, I presume, when there were only 13 states. What does it mean when someone flies this flag, or has it on the back of their jacket or on the side of a motorbike or whatever (if anything specific)? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Betsy Ross flag (which does not address "what does it mean?") Staecker (talk) 13:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to this extremely serious website which interprets the US flag code for anyone concerned about unpatriotic flag-related actions, you can fly whatever version of the flag you want from the oldest to the newest, and they all get equal respect. (They also say you're not allowed to wear any flag on your jacket.) --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly - flag patches on uniforms etc. are common and proper, as are flag pins for anyone. Collect (talk) 15:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That site may be earnest in its interpretation of flag law, but actual U.S. law clearly allows you to use the flag however you wish. Some individual people may see using the flag on clothing as disrespectful, while other people may not see any inherent disrespect in such usage; indeed many people see such use as an inherent sign of respect for the flag. You will not get any universal agreement on that, and the official position is neutral on the matter per the highest law in the land. The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that flags, their usage, and their role in speech is protected via both the First and Fourteenth amendments. See Stromberg v. California, Texas v. Johnson, United States v. Eichman, etc. If you, as an individual, wish to treat the flag with respect, do so in whatever means you deem for yourself to be respectful, and don't listen to any website's opinion on the matter as being "official". --Jayron32 14:30, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The United States Flag Code is only a law in the sense that it was passed by congress. It carries no penalties or enforcement. It's typically considered an authoritative source for "proper" civilian respect of the flag, but that's it. APL (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The circle form was widely during the Bicentennial in 1976 so maybe it was just an old jacket? Or possibly it has some use like the "Don't Tread on Me" flag used by the Tea Party. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 15:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That organisation has some nerve in heading its page "Flag Rules and Regulations", as if they were the rules because they say so. The fact is they don't make the rules; (a) they can't purport to be the source of the rules, and (b) they must acknowledge their official source. They've breached both of these fundamental concepts. So much for rules and regulations. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Betsy Ross flag: Other than the modern 50-star flag, it is literally the only specific historical flag most people are familiar with. There have been dozens of U.S. Flags, and most people wouldn't recognize any of them except the Betsy Ross flag. The Betsy Ross flag itself conjures up nostalgia for the American Revolution and early American history in a general sense, but I don't think anyone uses it for any overt political statement. --Jayron32 18:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Old fogies like myself may remember the "Spirit of 76" flag that was popular during the United States Bicentennial in 1976. ~~I was the Betsy Ross flag with a 76 inside the circle.~~ I don't think it was an official U.S. flag though, the government came up with this somewhat less lively design. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually I found it and it even has a name, the "Bennington flag". Beeblebrox (talk) 03:46, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Identification of Halal meat in retail outlets

I heard on the radio that Coles & woolworths are selling meat that meets Halhal standards. My question is who can I contact to ensure that meat slaughtered this way is marked in the Supermarket freezer so that I do not purchase it. I believe my freedom of choise has been arroded because meat slaughtered this way is not labelled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.11.182 (talk) 12:44, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[Question reformatted, and given own section and title, for clarity. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.159 (talk) 13:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)][reply]

Are you sure they don't differentiate between Halal and non-Halal? - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 13:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You can contact the stores. Either speak to the store manager or contact their head offices. You should be able to get contact details from their corporate websites.[2][3] (I assume you are in Australia.) If you are concerned about slaughterhouse practices in Australia, you can also contact DAFF[4] or Animals Australia[5]. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought it would be clearly marked. There would be little point in marketing the meat if people can't find it. The halal products at our local Northern Store are quite clearly marked. Of course they really don't taste any different from non-halal food. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 18:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why would one want to avoid Halal meat? HiLo48 (talk) 18:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Those that believe the ritual slaughter, bleeding to death, is inhumane. Also if you liked the blood in the meat. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or if one were a follower of Sikhism, which prohibits the eating of meat from an animal which has been (in the eyes of the Sikh religion) 'sacrificed', or possibly Hinduism, which does not prohibit eating of Halal or Kosher meat, but followers sometimes have a cultural objection. See Kutha meat. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One might not want to eat Halal meet because one does not want to be unknowingly converted to Islam, as recently claimed by Australian politician Luke Simpkins. [6][7][8]. (My personal POV: I'm an atheist and think that religious practices such as Halal are nonsense, but Simpkins' claim is just ridiculous.) Mitch Ames (talk) 02:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The webpage of the Australian Islamist Monitor contains a page which contains some background information relevant here, and some suggestions about action those who disagree can take (including 'talk to your MP'). See the bottom of this page. Please note that I don't personally agree with the aims & objectives of this group, particularly the Our Objectives page which begins 'Islam in its current form, as preached, taught and propagated by the mainstream Muslim elites, is incompatible with the existing political system in Australia. This is because Islam in this form is not just a religion but an entire political system, and regulatory force, controlling every aspect of the life of its followers and requiring them to actively secure for Islam the dominant, privileged position.' I'm simply aiming to provide information the OP might find useful in answering their question. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wester Arbreck, Scotland

Where in Scotland is Wester Arbreck located (County, Near a larger city)?. The Anderson Clan Crest lists that it is the Clan Crest of Anderson of Wester Arbreck and I can not find Wester Arbreck on any Scottish Map. Regards, Brian Anderson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.103.245 (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, File:Scottish clan map.png doesn't mention the Andersons, while the final paragraph of the Clan Anderson article is far from clear on the location of their lands. The same article has the interestingly named coat of arms: File:Anderson of Ardbrake arms.svg which suggest to me that "Arbreck" is perhaps a misspelling of "Ardbrake" (or vice-versa). A search online for Wester Arbreck indicates many (US based?) websites indicating the Andersons have a link with a town/region with that name, but no links to an actual town/region. If you instead search for ardbrake you get a number of promising links suggesting (Wester) Ardbrake is/was in Banffshire. Astronaut (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John Anderson of Wester Ardbrake & Westerton was born cica 1610 and died in 1690. He held the lands of Ardbrodin, Drumminor, Argathnie, Ardlunkart, Dummois, & Easter & Meikle Ardbrake in 1630. Westerton is located approximately 1300 yards west of Drummuir Castle at Botriphnie. It exists today as a working farm but in the wall of the old buildings, is an armorial stone showing the Anderson arms. Approximately 1300 yards to the north of Drummuir Castle, is the site of Ardbrake, which was not a village but a house (possibly a tower house). Regretably, all traces have now gone but there is a small cottage in that location that appears to have inherited the name 'Ardbrake. Added by David Waterton-Anderson KSG, 16 FEB 2013 (Chairman: Anderson Association).

' :I agree with Astronaut's work above, particularly the alternative spelling. That led me to this page, a record of a James Anderson who died in 'Wester Ardbrake' (Westertoun of Daftmill), Banffshire, Scotland' having been born in 'Ardbrake, Botriphinie, Banffshire, Scotland'. This confirms what Astronaut said about Banffshire. Assuming that Wester Ardbrake is close to (probably just west of) Ardbrake, I searched for Botriphinie, and found that it is now spelled Botriphnie, and that it is a rather remote village/hamlet with a primary school, located in what is now the county of Moray in the Scottish Highlands. Map here: http://g.co/maps/hebke. The closest 'larger city' is Aberdeen, since there are very few settlements of any size in that part of Scotland. It looks like you had ancestors who lived a rather isolated life, Brian! - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Our page on Drummuir says; "Its old name was Botriphnie". Alansplodge (talk) 01:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what time period we are talking about, but presumably the area was more heavily populated (and Aberdeen less so) before the Highland Clearances and the Industrial Revolution? 81.98.43.107 (talk) 22:46, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To my shame, I have to admit that the history of the Scottish Highlands is something I know very little about (thanks, probably, to my education in England). However, following the comments above, I did a little further digging, and discovered that Botriphnie is still the name of a parish, centred on the modern settlement of Drummuir, Drummuir Castle (built 1847) and the Drummuir and Botriphnie Parish Church (built 1820). As 81 mentioned, the area seems to have been heavily affected by the Highland Clearances, and one site I saw claimed the parish held only one house with about 3 occupants for most of the period from 1851-1951. It seems that the area was much more highly populated in the past, but I haven't seen any hard figures online. If you are interested in finding out more, there is a book, The Parish of Botriphnie prior to 1850 (ISBN 978-0-9566780-3-6 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum), available here. I also found a map of the area from 1806, which shows more place names within the parish (sadly not including Ardbrake). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 10:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Old Pontiac

Yesterday I saw an old Pontiac woody in a parking lot, it looked like it might have been from the 50s. It was not in very good shape, appearance-wise, but it obviously drives okay. I was wondering how old it was, it had a hood ornament that looks like [9], though I'm not sure it had the chrome wings. Any idea how long Pontiac continued with that particular hood ornament? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 19:09, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does this page have the ornament you saw? It seems like Pontiac had moved on to using a jet fighter on the hood by 1955. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It looks like the hood ornament used in the late 1940s-early 1950s. See Pontiac Chieftain, especially the first generation pics. Also Pontiac Star Chief, especially the first few years,. That hood ornament looks like it went out of common use by the middle 50s, say 1955 or 1956. The best match for a "woody" style wagon with that hood ornament is the Pontiac Streamliner station wagon, see the pic. --Jayron32 19:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, that looks just like it. Thank you. (Though the one I saw, like I said, was in really bad shape) The Mark of the Beast (talk) 19:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

January 14

How much Prime Healthcare Services bought each of their hospitals?

Hello, I am doing research about Prime Healthcare Services and got a lot of information from article from your site. I know when Prime bought each hospital and from who. However, I need to include how much each hospitals was bought for by Prime Healthcare Services. Please guide me on how to go about finding this answer. I seems like Prime Healthcare Services buy most or all of their hospitals throught bankruptcy but I don't know how to get information on the purchase price. Please help.

Thank you very much.

Do you have a reason to believe that the prices are public knowledge? I would be surprised if they were. --ColinFine (talk) 15:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Concur. It could indeed prove quite difficult to obtain such information, as the purchase contracts (or whatever appropriate documentation) probably also include confidentiality clauses. And be wary - if they are not obliged (be it by letter of law or however else) to disclose such information, they probably won't. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:19, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I thought that when someone buy or sell a property, and in the case a big thing like a hospital, there should be a place where we can see the value it sold for. I thought it will would be the same like a house since we can find out what year it was sold and for how much. I read many articles about Prime and saw that many times the writer disclosed the price but it wasn't how much Prime bought it for but how much the seller bought it for before it had to sell to Prime. I am pretty much run out of idea on where to look so if anyone have any idea please let me know. Thank you very much.

Question about Japanese celebrities

I asked this question a few months ago (as an IP) but I did not get any relevant answers, so I'm asking it again. Why do a particularly large number of Japanese celebrities not disclose their ages? Examples are Yuko Goto, Mami Kawada and KOTOKO. If it's for privacy then I can understand, and will respect it, but why does this practice seem to be particularly common in Japan? Do they view privacy differently from the West? I know this practice isn't restricted to Japan, here in the Philippines, there are a number of celebrities who do just that, but almost none of them are super-famous or really that mainstream, and in the US, there have been many cases of such practice -– to my knowledge, Andy Warhol's date of birth (and most information about his early life) was mot known until after his death. Why is the practice so common in Japan? And like last last time, only give examples of Japanese celebrities; no Western celebrities. Also, where other countries is this practice widespread? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe ageism is legal in Japan. Unverified source Maybe it's even worse in the entertainment sector than in the regular working world. Not that the studio execs couldn't easily learn the age of the star, but if Japanese citizens who buy movie tickets knew such-and-such was actually over 30, they would be less likely to buy a ticket. I don't know at all if that theory has much credibility, not being familiar with Japanese culture myself, but it's a thought. 69.243.220.115 (talk) 01:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's nothing to do with ageism, as in whether they could get fired or forced to retire at a certain age. For one, they have to provide ID when applying for a job or applying for the training a lot of them get (acting, singing, etc.) - and the ID will have the date of birth on - their agents or managers and colleagues will know their ages, and they also have birthday parties, same as everyone else. Secondly, there are plenty of celebrities who are in their 70s and 80s, etc., way beyond the normal retirement age. It is most surely for privacy reasons, and nothing more. Their ages are just not disclosed to the public, because frankly, it's none of our business, in the same way as if you went to a bank, you wouldn't expect the teller to tell you how old she was. Also, in Japan, certain ages have a certain significance. 20, for example, is considered to be when people become an adult. 30, for ladies, has always had a connotation of 'if she has not had a baby yet, she never will'. If people knew their ages, there would be endless gossip on the variety shows and women's magazines, detracting from the job they actually do. They want privacy, because they are doing a job. Also, all three of our articles that the OP gave as examples have their dates of birth right there. If we can find out this information, I am sure the Japanese can. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Their ages are not disclosed on their Japanese Wikipedia articles, and the years given on our articles may or may not be made up (Kotoko's year of birth apparently really is 1980, but I can't confirm Kawada or Goto's years of birth in reliable sources). It's not like all Japanese Wikipedia articles don't have their year of birth: Rie Kugimiya's year of birth (1979) is given on her Japanese article, and so is Aya Hirano's (1987). Articles we do have that don't disclose their year of births include Mell and Kaori Utatsuki. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 06:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are cultural differences about which things are considered private. Many Japanese celebrities publish their blood type. Blood types in Japanese culture#Current popularity says: "On Japanese Wikipedia, blood type is among the first attributes listed in the infoboxes for celebrities, frequently between birthdate and birthplace." I'm not sure Wikipedia is the best example to mention in a Wikipedia article. The English Wikipedia also mentions the blood type of many Japanese, but apparently not in the infobox. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Their blood type is publicly announced because of a Japanese idea (actually only from just slightly previous to WW2, and not based on any traditional thinking whatsoever) about a connection between blood type and personality traits, and the public love to know these things. These people work in the entertainment industry, where personality is very important. This idea has spread to other Asian countries. It was designed by the Japanese military, because blood stocks were low, so people with rarer types (such as O - rare in the Japanese) would be kept for government work or officer work, while people with much more usual types (such as A - more common in the Japanese) would be used as infantry, etc. This was developed into a myth that permeated more and more into Japanese society and even industry, to a certain extent, on a par with the zodiac. I have a little anecdote: when I worked in Japan for a company supplying machine parts to Toyota Motor Company, my blood type was written on my helmet (which was used for visiting the factories). When I asked (jokingly) if it was because people would know more about me, my manager laughed and said it was purely in case there was an accident. Nevertheless, when in the factories, some of the guys I spoke with had a little banter about my blood type, which is O. It was never serious talk, just chit-chat. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The strange thing I noticed is that on Japanese Wikipedia, only Japanese people have their blood type listed. All others (even Koreans, who also share the obsession with blood types) don't. I checked Lionel Messi's article: no blood type. (but it probably isn't known anyway) I also checked the article of a Korean actress (I forgot who): same result. I know some Western people whose blood type is known (Hitler was Type A) but it seems this is not mentioned in their Japanese articles. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 06:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes I wonder if Japaneses write their blood types on their CVs. 88.9.215.240 (talk) 15:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, they don't have to. There is actually a template which you are required to use (you can see the exact one here). I filled a few of them in. It asks your age (despite also asking your date of birth), and requires a photograph (space in top right), but it doesn't ask for your blood type. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Required by whom? Including photos on CVs is discouraged in the UK now - it's only really useful for discrimination on grounds of appearance (eg. ethnicity), which you're not supposed to do. I expect someone would remove the photo from any CV that did have one before the people making the decisions saw it so they can't be accused of discrimination. The only jobs you would be expected to include a photo on your CV for are jobs where you appearance is important to the job (eg. a job as a model). --Tango (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese CV template is as required as taking your shoes off in the house, let's put it that way. It's just custom. They are taught to use them at schools and universities, and you can buy them at convenience stores in packs of 5 or 10. Also, they have to be hand-written, and not typed. It's just the custom to use these templates. If you're a foreigner (whether you speak and write Japanese or not) you'd be forgiven for using the Western style system, but mostly likely if you were Japanese and you did this, you wouldn't even get the interview, as they are available for free at the local Jobcentres (called "Hello! Work", in Japan). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:59, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Full-grain or corrected grain leather shoes

Is the difference so huge to justify the amazing difference in price between the former and the latter? Couldn't a corrected grain leather shoe be better, since the leather has been treated more thoroughly? 88.9.215.240 (talk) 15:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I had never heard of these terms before I saw your question (leather explained them). But what occurs to me is that prices, especially for things that may be seen as luxuries, tend to reflect demand more than inherent cost. If "full-grain" is esteemed as more "natural" (a common obsession nowadays) this may account for the difference. --ColinFine (talk)

Full grain is appropriate when the visual character of the skin is a selling point. So, for the given surface of the item, you need a patch of skin that's uniform and unblemished. But animal skin often isn't uniform and unblemished. Cows and other animals are attacked by various nasty biting, stinging, sucking, and burrowing insects, get injured from things like fence posts and barbed-wire (the scratch themselves against barbed wire, often because those burrowing insects make them feel itchy), and get things like skin infections and immunisation scars. So if you take the tanned hide of a regular milk cow, for example, it's likely to have lots of little scrapes and dents and cuts and scars, so it's hard to cut from that a big piece suitable for a high quality leather sofa, or even for a shoe upper. It's possible for a farmer to reduce the number of such blemishes (no barbed wire, more thorough insect treatment, harvesting the animal as soon as it's mature, if not before) at the expense of more complicated and pricey husbandry. One thing: sometimes you do see stuff made from full-grain leather where the blemishes are evident - that gives you that fake "authentic western" look ("now 40 percent more rootin' tootin!"), where the marks and holes (where an injury has caused the skin to open completely during the tanning process) are a feature. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The corrected grain leather may lose it's pattern over time, but hopefully will otherwise remain intact. You can probably apply shoe polish to cover the worn-off pattern, assuming these are shoe we're talking about. StuRat (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When I read of splitting a piece of animal skin into two or three thicknesses, I can't envision how it would be possible, since the stuff seems tough, and since a knife would want to break through the surface on one side or the other. How thick is the skin of a cow, anyway? Edison (talk) 15:04, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Credit rating outlooks

Why do credit rating agencies give "outlooks" (ie. say whether a rating is likely to increase, decrease or stay the same)? Why don't they just incorporate all the information they have into the main rating? I know the ratings aren't purely an indicator of probability of default, but that is essentially what they are supposed to represent. In Bayesian probability (which is how mathematicians would think about the probability of a default event), we base our probabilities on all the information we have. You wouldn't say a probability is likely to increase when we get more evidence, you would just increase it now (and then decrease it if the evidence you expected didn't happen). Why does the same not apply to credit ratings? --Tango (talk) 16:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's short term credit, like one of those paycheck cashing places that gives you a loan til payday. They really don't much care about your long term credit prospects. On the other hand, if you are getting a 30-year mortgage, they very much care about that. Say you have a high-paying job now, but are 60 years old, and don't have any retirement plan or savings. That would make you a good short-term loan prospect, but a poor 30-year mortgage prospect. StuRat (talk) 16:32, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I should have been clear. I'm talking about credit ratings of bond issuers - companies and governments. I don't think anyone gives outlooks on individual credit scores, since they require much more than just a formulaic analysis of a credit history. --Tango (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the same logic would apply there, too. For a short-term bond, you only care about their current ability to pay, while for long-term bonds you care about their long-term credit rating. If a company is dominating an industry that's slowly dying, like film cameras, and making no attempt to adapt, they might fall into this category. StuRat (talk) 06:40, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not talking about the difference between long-term and short-term credit ratings, I'm talking about the outlooks credit rating agencies give saying how a rating is likely to change. --Tango (talk) 20:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is only a guess, but I suspect that the reason is that ratings are given in fixed categories (triple A etc) whereas the actual calculations are probabilities on a continuous scale. Thus the recent warning that France was likely to lose its top status indicated that the calculated probability was dropping to the lower end of the "Triple A" range, and this was confirmed later when the probability fell further to a value outside the range. Dbfirs 21:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So you think the outlooks are just an even finer version of the +'s and -'s that they put on some of the ratings? I suppose that's possible, although it seems an odd way to say it. --Tango (talk) 12:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does seem odd, because, as you said, rate of fall and expectation of future probabilities should already be factored into the rating. Perhaps they are just reluctant to change the published rating until they are sure. Can anyone give a better answer? Dbfirs 18:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

North Korean constitution vs. reality

According to Politics of North Korea#Political parties and elections, the constitution of North Korea guarantees voters the right to a secret ballot. In reality, however, there is no such thing, and all voters must vote openly, before the eyes of the government officials. How can it be that the North Korean government so blatantly and openly violates its own constitution? Do they even bother to pretend the constitution is worth a toss? What would happen if some citizen appealed to their constitutional rights? Would he/she be instantly shot? JIP | Talk 16:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd call it a prime example of doublespeak, as is appropriate in the world's most Orwellian society. Acroterion (talk) 16:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's absolutely par for the course for repressive, totalitarian governments to have wonderful constitutions that protect human rights, which they completely ignore. The Soviet Union had such a constitution. (If you have no intention of honoring your constitution, you might as well promise everything anyone could ever ask for.) As far as appealing to the courts, I doubt if there is even a mechanism for doing so. The logic would be "everyone has infinite freedom, so there's no need to appeal to the courts". If somebody made enough of a nuisance for the government, then they might very well shoot them. StuRat (talk) 16:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

North Korea takes the constitution seriously to the extent that it lays out the framework for Juche ideology - the constitution is revered much in the same way the First Ammendment is in the US - but that's not to say they can't interpret it... oddly. The government would probably argue that the election is "secret", on the grounds that there are voting booths and, I believe, the voting slips themselves are anonymised. Of course, the voting booths to vote against the party are separated from the ones to vote for the party, so it's still transparently obvious who's voted for what, but it's enough of a legal fiction that the government can pay lip-service to the idea. North Korea also lacks judicial review, so unlike in the US where you could appeal to the Supreme Court if the government isn't respecting your rights, or the Council of Europe where you can go to either national courts or the European Court of Human Rights, it would be impossible to appeal to your constitutional rights. Smurrayinchester 17:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What would happen if a citizen were to simply say to the government officials present at the election: "But it says here in the constitution I have the right to a secret ballot"?

Would they reply "The ballot is secret. You don't have to write your name on it", while cleverly omitting the fact that the way the elections are set up, there is absolutely no way casting a vote against the party can be done in any secrecy?
Would they reply "Constitution, schmonstitution. Just do what the Party tells you and be happy with it"?
Would they instantly shoot him/her for daring to question the system? JIP | Talk 19:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is an entire chapter in The Gulag Archipelago about the willful and happy abuse and ignoring of Constitutional provisions under the USSR. I think, rather, it is important to realize that living in a place where a piece of paper can actually limit what people with guns and tanks can do is something of the odd case, not the other way around. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:21, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't a voter mark their voting slip with a vote against the party whilst in the privacy of a for-the-party booth? Astronaut (talk) 06:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That might work in theory, but I've come to understand that in North Korea, there are no booths. Instead there's a ballot box and an open side table with a red pen on it out in the open. To vote for the party, you just go directly to the ballot box and drop your slip there. To vote against the party, you have to take an extra action to mark the slip with the red pen. Because this has to be done openly in the voting room before the eyes of the secret police, the government will know that anyone who did anything other than go straight to the ballot box is a traitor and thus will be exterminated. JIP | Talk 10:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You've got to admit, that's a pretty clever plan they've come up with there. Not very nice, but it does the job they want it to. 148.197.81.179 (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how it's clever. They could just not have elections at all. I don't see any gain in holding an election that everyone knows is a sham (well, everyone outside knows it is - I'm assuming the North Koreans haven't been brainwashed so much that they can't realise it too). --Tango (talk) 20:40, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talking of shams, I heard that the South Koreans claimed that any North Korean who did not fully participate in the fulsome public grieving for the late beloved leader was liable to be severely punished, but the North Koreans denied they have any such policy. They insist all the wailing is absolutely genuine. I don't know which story is the more laughable. The tragedy is, any human being, including the ordinary North Koreans, can tell when someone is shedding crocodile tears, particularly when the act is so over the top as to be ridiculous, and an insult to whatever merits the departed may have had. Just exactly who the authorities think they're fooling with these stage-managed excesses is beyond me. It's all an act, they know it is, we know it is, they know we know, and they know we know they know. What sort of ideology can allow such a farce? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 07:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Theirs (addendum: I am leaning towards the opinion that it's just for the benefit of the one man in the lead or the handful of people who actually believe in their system). --Ouro (blah blah) 10:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We had an interesting discussion on the genuineness or otherwise of that public grieving a few weeks ago. --Viennese Waltz 10:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To comment on that discussion (the original thread is too old for my comment to be of any use), it isn't the question whether most people were genuinely saddened and grieving over Kim Jong-Il's death. The point is that a society that forces people to be saddened and grieve over a leader's death, or else face half a year in a prison camp, at the minimum, has to be seriously messed up. JIP | Talk 19:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's as crazy as scheduling "spontaneous joy" into one's daily list of tasks. Or telling TV studio audiences when to break into applause ......... -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, technically an applause only requires a physical act, not necessarily the emotion behind it. But I get your reasoning about spontaneous joy, and agree with it. JIP | Talk 20:00, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's considered polite to clap at the end of a performance, if only to express "Thank God that's over". Clapping during the performance is meant to express spontaneous feelings of gladness or whatever. Presumably most people in TV studio audiences have a good idea of what the show's all about and who's in it, so they're hardly a captive audience, and they'll willingly go along with the "Applause" sign, because in most cases they would have clapped at that point anyway, or near enough. I was just making the point that the NKs aren't the only culture that stage manages public displays of feelings, but that's where the comparison ends. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With TV audiences, I think the cue cards are mostly because the audience needs to react to the same thing half a dozen times until everything is just right. A spontaneous reaction should be fine the first time, but you can't rely on people to laugh spontaneously the 4th time they hear a particular joke. --Tango (talk) 21:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Costa Concordia

This tragedy is an ongoing one - no question about that - and no disrespect to those who have lost their lives - and their friends and families. But on a separate but not unassociated issue - what will happen to the stricken hull, once all the investigations and recoveries have been effected? At 115,000 tons, is it feasible for a ship lying on its side, and filled with maritime diesel fuel, to be uprighted and floated away to a dry-dock for repair and re-fitting - only then to be sold on to another company and renamed? Or will she be cut up as per The Herald of Free Enterprise and sold as scrap metal? Only curious but extremely sympathetic to all those directly and indirectly affected. 62.30.176.76 (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is hard to say. Consider the fate of the SS America. That ship was much smaller (only 26,000 tons), but still a rather large ship, and it was allowed to basically rot in place where it ran aground. Which is not to say that will happen to the Costa Concordia, but predicting what will happen is difficult to say. --Jayron32 01:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's an instructive example. When she ran aground, America was a structurally sound (if low value) hull - but 48 hours later the sea had broken her back. Once the basic structure is compromised to that extent, salvage becomes very difficult and the proceeds little (you get some scrap steel, not a reusable vessel). Right now it looks as if Concordia is in good structural condition - but if they have to wait a week or two until they're allowed to move her off the rocks, the sea may have destroyed her. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 01:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not clear whether the ship really listed to port (from the flooding) or whether it ran aground and the wave action pushed it over (using the rocks/sand as a fulcrum). If it's the latter, it may simply be enough to wait for high tide and drag it back off the rocks with tugs, and then off to somewhere for repair. If it really did partially sink then they'll want to remove the fuel (which would contaminate the foreshore if it escaped). Then what they'll do depends on its condition. They can tug it off anyway (with more tugs running massive pumps to keep a leaky ship afloat), temporarily patch it, or fill spaces with lifting bags (Google finds these ones by way of example). The longer it stays on the rocks the more damage it'll suffer from the action of wave and tide, so ideally they'd get it off quickly - the fact that people are missing (with a reasonable chance that some are still inside the ship) means they'll have to wait until the rescue is done before salvage can properly commence. And it's likely to be considered a crime scene, so that might slow things down too. But the Italians don't want it cluttering up their shore and they definitely don't want it breaking up (which makes salvage much harder, and causes lots of pollution of various kinds) so they'll be very unwilling to let the shipping line leave it where it is. It's not impossible that it'll be refloated, repaired, and pressed back into service - if so, surely in another part of the world under another name. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 01:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See also Herald_of_Free_Enterprise#Aftermath, which righted the ship before removal of all bodies. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While wave action could certainly increase damage to the hull, especially if the weather worsens, I imagine the effect of the very small tidal range in the Mediterranean Sea would be pretty small. Astronaut (talk) 06:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. The America case above is a bit of a red herring, as a result - that was fully exposed to Atlantic storms, whereas this is a sheltered and relatively inshore location in the Mediterranean. The weather looks calm for the next couple of days, at least, making it likely that the worst of the damage can be patched up and secured before it deteriorates too fast. Shimgray | talk | 18:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They raised some of the ships sunk in the Pearl Harbor attacks, by patching holes and pumping out water. Five battleships and two cruisers were afloat again in 6 months, all with worse damage than this ship. Edison (talk) 14:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

January 15

16 mm + 18 - 55 mm lenses

A brand camera is sold, in one of it's original packages, with a 16 mm and a 18 - 55 mm lens. What's the point of including this 16 mm lens, it's just a little bit shorter than the shortest span of the other lens, and it will make the camera more expensive. 88.9.215.240 (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine the small lens is considerably smaller and lighter than the zoom lens, making it more portable for occasions that don't require the zoom lens. StuRat (talk) 00:40, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is the f-number of the 16 mm compared with the 18 – 55? A good 16mm 'prime lens' with a good f-number would be a useful addition to a zoom with lower f-numbers.--Aspro (talk) 01:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is Sony NEX5DB Alpha Compact System Camera - 16mm F2.8 and 18-55mm F3.5-5.6. So, yes, you get a lower f on the 16mm. 88.9.215.240 (talk) 02:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Prime lenses tend to be a bit sharper than zoom lens, which might be another reason for its inclusion. --Daniel 17:47, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing that you're looking at a package like this one? The 16mm lens will be a bit 'faster' than the 18-55mm zoom when wide open. f/2.8 versus f/3.5 is two-thirds of an f-stop when wide open, which means about 60% more light getting to the sensor (and commensurately shorter exposure times) at maximum aperture. (The low f-number also means a shallower depth of field, which can be useful for certain types of photography.) Because the optics in the 16mm lens only have to work well at one focal length, it's likely to be somewhat sharper and suffer from less distortion than the zoom lens. (This a reasonable rule of thumb for comparing prime and zoom lenses at similar focal lengths; you should check lens-specific reviews if you want to be sure that it's true for any specific lens.)

On a camera with an APS-C-sized sensor, a 16mm prime lens is equivalent to about a 25mm lens on a 35mm film SLR, so it's a moderately wide-angle lens that could be used as a 'walking-around' lens under a lot of circumstances. The short, flat 'pancake lens' form factor makes the 16mm lens a lot shorter and lighter than the 18-55 zoom, so the camera becomes a lot lighter and skinnier – almost 'pocketable', for the NEX5DB – than when you have the zoom attached. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Last USAF pilot killed in air to air engagement?

Who was the last USAF or USN pilot killed in an air to air engagement? Specifically, the pilot must not have fallen victim to fratricide, or a ground to air attack. Reference would be greatly appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.37.68 (talk) 02:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Scott Speicher (Jan. 17, 1991)? The official report says he was downed by a surface-to-air missile, but others claim a MiG got him. (See his article for the conflicting references.) Clarityfiend (talk) 03:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Post–World War II air-to-air combat losses plus some extra hunting around about the one USN listed from the Persian Gulf war points to Scott Speicher being a potential candidate, though the exact cause of his crash (whether it was surface-to-air or air-to-air) seems still a bit murky, though there are potentially good reasons to think it was air-to-air. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:13, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If not Speicher, then I think the previous one was from the Vietnam War: Lt. M.F. Haifley, from December 28, 1972. (His co-pilot was not killed in action but captured as a POW.) (See Aircraft losses of the Vietnam War.) --Mr.98 (talk) 04:50, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both Speicher and Haifley were navy pilots, not air force though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.37.68 (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weeelll you did allow for USN pilots, no? Anyway, I've linked to the articles I used to try and suss out this sort of information, you can probably do any remaining research with them myself. Look over the Vietnam article, find the latest air-to-airs, then figure out whether they were USAF, then figure out who it was. If there is none in Vietnam that fits the bill, use the other conflicts in the air-to-air combat losses article (there are a few in 1969-1970 over Eastern Europe). --Mr.98 (talk) 15:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are there national anthems which are required to be sung by law? (as in, no instrumental versions are allowed)

This question came into my mind while listening to the Nepalese national anthem. All videos of it on YouTube (and even the .ogg file of it on our article) are vocal versions (incidentally, the exact same version), and I have not been able to find an instrumental version. Maybe other versions of it are rare, but is it possible that it must be sung? Are there anthems which by law can only have vocal versions? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In contrast (to fail to answer the question in the worst possible way), the Spanish national anthem does not have any (official) words at all. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want this to be construed as spam, but here is a link to a video on YouTube with an instrumental version of the Nepalese anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mKlpWHMLkk (Lorddaine usually has the best instrumental versions on YouTube). 80.122.178.68 (talk) 21:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's their old one, not their current one. 112.208.102.37 (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. Well, then he probably hasn't found the new one in an instrumental version yet, which brings us back to the OP's question. 80.122.178.68 (talk) 21:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Costa Concordia the largest passenger ship ever to sink?

Regarding the Costa Concordia disaster, this article says the, "Costa Concordia is the largest ship ever to sink," but that's not strictly true counting supertankers. However [10] shows that it is certainly the largest passenger ship to ever sink or be destroyed in service, but it's not a WP:RS. Is there a more reliable source? Selery (talk) 15:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Define "largest". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By gross weight tonnage or length, or both, I believe, in this case. Selery (talk) 20:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gross tonnage is volume, not weight. CC was the largest by GT, which is not displacement. RMS Queen Elizabeth (sunk in 1972) displaced more but was smaller, having less GT. (To complicate matters, QE was measured in GRT, CC in GT, but the two measures are similar.) GRT and, after 1969, GT, are the measures of size for passenger ships, so yes, CC is the largest one ever lost. QE was the largest passenger ship ever built until 1996, and no larger ship built since then has been lost, until Concordia. 174.253.140.22

Also note that the CC hasn't actually sunk yet, it only ran aground. It may yet sink, if it gets washed off the reef into deep enough water for it to disappear below the waves. StuRat (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After arguing about this for something like 30 kilobytes, the Editing Community has settled on "partially sunk". Sigh. Selery (talk) 20:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ieager WVa connection to YeagerKy

Mcdowell County West Virginia and Pike County Kentucky seem to have several social, geographic and historical connections. Has someone articled their relationship. I specifically wondered about the railroad connection and the building of the King Coal Highway. Would town residents have taken the name Ieager with them to a new location. There is also a town named Perryville that included residents from that area who came in from the rails maybe because the namne was familiar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BetEthMabJeanDorie (talk • contribs) 18:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

renting a room in a home

If you rent one or more rooms in a home, can a case be made for "common law marriage" if you live there long enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.112.103 (talk) 20:41, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Common law marriage says "Cohabitation alone does not create a common-law marriage; the couple must hold themselves out to the world as spouses"; and the cohabitation article defines it as "an arrangement where two people who are not married live together in an intimate relationship" -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 20:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Like most legal issues, it depends entirely on the jurisdiction. The article common-law marriage points out that for most jusrisdictions "Cohabitation alone does not create a common-law marriage; the couple must hold themselves out to the world as spouses" and "There must be mutual consent of the parties to the relationship constituting a marriage". Common-law marriage in the United States has a little bit finer breakdown of the different requirements between different states, some of which require presenting themselves to the public as husband and wife, and/or consummation (the term cohabitation is frequently used, but may, depending on jurisdiction, mean something more than just "living in the same house" - you'd have to check local laws). - If you're asking for more than just academic interest, you need to seek out someone who knows the laws in your area - Wikipedia does not give out legal advice. -- 71.35.113.131 (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose some married couples don't sleep in the same room. But in such cases it would be hard to prove a common-law marriage. --Colapeninsula (talk) 22:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A few weeks ago I watched one of those "dole cheats" TV programmes on British daytime TV (I was at the gym, honest). One case involved a guy who was a lodger at the home of some rich bird (I think she may actually have been a Lady). He was claiming benefits. But the benefit fuzz thought that he wasn't a lodger at all, but a bidie-in. Eventually they found evidence that the pair of them were buying properties together, but then they transferred the title just to her, so he had no assets. By showing the pair pooled their finances in a way akin to a couple, the DHSS could say they were common-law wed, that he'd lied on the benefits claim, and thus there was fraud afoot. 87.113.13.28 (talk) 00:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard of the flip side of this, from someone I knew in Australia (and believe I can trust). She was flatting with two people in a two bedroom house, and Social Security concluded she had to be in a relationship with one or the other, so they would dock about a third of her allowance. I think one of the flatmates was a male relative, and the other was a female in a relationship with someone else (or something like that). She actually slept on the couch, but she ended up having to tell them she was sleeping with both the flatmates, and that apparently worked - she couldn't be tied to either one. IBE (talk) 01:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The OP asks "can a case be made". One interpretation of that is, "If I give money to a lawyer, will s/he attempt to find some legal precedent on which we can argue this case in court." The answer to that is almost certainly yes: if that is how you want to spend your money, there is bound to be a lawyer happy to take it from you. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So if you share rent with someone, the government can just assume you to be married should they want? I barely speak to my current flatmates, I hope they're not deducting money from me for being here. 148.197.81.179 (talk) 09:56, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Hold themselves out to the world as spouses" is part of the description in every example I've heard. I suppose you could live somewhere "odd"... Also... quite a few jurisdictions have abolished common law marriages. Shadowjams (talk) 07:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

January 16

Military servicemen photographs

Going through the National World War II museum today generated a few questions for me. So here's the first...

There were many exhibits of war relics which had a description of what the item was, who personally used it, etc. Next to each description was a photo of the man who the item belonged to. They were all in class A uniform and posed in the same way. These are also basically the same as the photos we have here of service members. When would these photos be taken? Does the US military get recruits/draftees (historically on that last one since we're not going through a draft right now) to throw their class A uniforms on for picture day like in grade school and then keep these on file for identification purposes? And then would the men be given a chance to have one of those photos sent home to their family? We had a picture of this nature of my brother on our mantle growing up (he's retired and I'd ask him but I'm looking not just for his experience but how this was done during war time as well). Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 00:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anecdotal. During Army basic training in the 1980s, after we had our uniform measurements, we were taken to a photo studio, mock tops of the correct size were given to each trainee, and their photos taken. Very common sizes had more than 1, but 100 trainees were finished in about an hour. A cycle book and packages were available, and proofs were given. Dru of Id (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scar on Michelle Obama's hand

Michelle Obama has a scar on her left hand, near the wrist. How did she get it?

— O'Dea (talk) 08:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

She had her third hand amputated (see [11] ). :)--84.58.228.203 (talk) 12:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

CAUTION: That website caused my browser to shut down. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You've got to get a more robust browser, Bugs! Anyway, the site linked to is not serious, it just points out where a poor Photoshop job by a newspaper had inadvertently given Michele Obama three hands. (Err, or just someone else in the photo.) --Mr.98 (talk) 14:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the large number of comments brought down Bugs' browser. Here is the photo by itself. -- ToE 15:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Miss half the fun though. The comments are hilarious.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 15:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Luther King Day "observed"

My calendar entry for today reads "Martin Luther King, Jr. Day (observed)". Why do they put in that last word? I see from the article that there has been some reluctance to observe the holiday, that it is now a paid holiday for state employees but that many private companies do not observe it. So when the calendar company includes that last word, are they just referring to the day's observance among state employers? Or are they making some kind of political point that it is not always observed but that it should be? --Viennese Waltz 10:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems pretty clear: Martin Luther King, Jr. was born on January 15th, but the public holiday falls (is "observed") on the third Monday of January, whatever date that may be. --Xuxl (talk) 11:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's fairly common wording. Sometimes public holidays (and this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) must be celebrated on the day, whether it's a weekend or whatever in which case most workers miss the public holiday, with others you get a holiday in lieu. For example my calendar (printed in USA FWIW) has "New Year's Day" on Jan 1 which was a Sunday, and then "New Year's Day (observed)" printed on Jan 2 (Mon), meaning that's when you'll get the public holiday. The MLK one two weeks later is exactly the same. --jjron (talk) 11:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, Washington's Birthday is Feb 22, but is "observed" (and popularly but incorrectly called "President's Day") on the Monday preceding the 22nd. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article you link says "commonly known as 'Presidents Day'". I don't see it says anywhere that this is "incorrect". --ColinFine (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Memorial Day was once traditionally held on May 30, but is now "observed" on the last Monday in May. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The last year MLK Day actually fell on the 15th was in 2007. The next year will be 2018. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that it was called "President's Day" because it combined the holdiays for Lincoln's (Feb 12) and Washington's (Feb 22) brithday. I remember there used to be two holdiays for the two birthdays and now there is just the one. RudolfRed (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lincoln's Birthday was not a national holiday. Washington's was. In fact, Lincoln's birthday is still observed in the states that used to do so before "President's Day" came along, and it's still on the 12th. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation RudolfRed (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.opm.gov/operating_status_schedules/fedhol/2012.asp "This holiday is designated as "Washington's Birthday" in section 6103(a) of title 5 of the United States Code, which is the law that specifies holidays for Federal employees. Though other institutions such as state and local governments and private businesses may use other names, it is our policy to always refer to holidays by the names designated in the law." --Nricardo (talk) 01:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When some major holidays fall on a Saturday or Sunday, then the Friday before or the Monday after is the holiday "observed", the day when certain businesses close. The calendar will show both days, as in Jjron's example -- Sunday Jan 1: New Year's Day, Monday Jan 2: New Year's Day (Observed). However, Martin Luther King, Jr. Day is always the third Monday in January, so it never needs a secondary "observed" day. I think this may be the question Viennese Waltz was asking: Why did the calendar include the word "observed" when Martin Luther King, Jr. Day is always on Monday? I agree with Xuxl, it's probably used to mean King's birthday observed. If the calendar had shown both "Sunday Jan 15: Martin Luther King, Jr.'s Birthday" and "Monday Jan 16: Martin Luther King, Jr.'s Birthday (Observed)", then it would better fit into the pattern. --Bavi H (talk) 02:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The "first business day after" convention is quite common for many legal deadlines. It depends on the jurisdiction, and it only applies to longer (roughly over 2 weeks) time-frames, but often when the deadline technically falls on a holiday or a Sunday/Saturday, the next business day is the "deadline." Of course always check the details, certainly don't rely on this as a rule of thumb, but it's a common government convention. Shadowjams (talk) 07:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Banks (bless them) don't do that. Not in my experience. They will specify that your mortage or whatever is due "no later than the 13th day of each month"; if the 13th falls on a weekend and for some reason you can't pay online, you can always pay early - in their opinion. I've been caught by this when I made a payment on the Monday that was actually due on the weekend, only to be told my payment was late and it would attract a fee. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 07:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Translation into English

Okay, this might just be one of those few questions that goes unanswered in the ref desk, but I might as well try. I uploaded a friend's photo on Facebook, and tagged her, so one of her friends (from her state, Meghalaya, India) commented under it in Khasi. I don't know Khasi, and neither the commenter, nor my friend are willing to tell me what it means, but since it's been made in a very public portal, under one of my own uploaded pics, I feel I have a right to know. So here's the comment, and I'm hoping somebody here can decode it :"Lol meh dang pynkhih lbong hi? ". (PS, I guess "Lol" here is the standard "laugh out loud"). 117.227.115.215 (talk) 15:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You probably will get better results if you have this posted at the Language Desk rather than here. Consider also putting the name of the language (Khasi) into the header. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to this online dictionary it (very) roughly translates to: burn just shake thigh its. Does that make any sense with the context of the picture? TheGrimme (talk) 18:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't "meh" be internet slang rather than Khasi? Since lbong=thigh is the most unambiguous word there, I'd guess it means something like "Shake those thighs" or (via metonymy) "shake that ass", which would both be very common things to write about photos. --Colapeninsula (talk) 20:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, idiomatically, "burn" is actually "hot" (as in physically attractive), so "That's hot - shake that ass!"? Sounds like a very plausible comment on a Facebook photo. ("meh" being the English slang expression of disinterest doesn't seem to fit the rest of it.) --Tango (talk) 00:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that said 'bum'. I had to put it into a text editor to see it properly. Also, it looks like a question, so I would put it as 'Lol - hot - shaking those thighs?' Obviously something to do with dancing. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case anyone is interested, the photo in question is this: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2181860245869&l=b5b298a899 117.227.46.61 (talk) 08:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Train operator for LACMTA

How do I become a train operator for the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority? I'm interested in this career because I'm a transit rider and have a interest in participating in the (public sector) transit industry. I think this career is easy to me because they use a joystick to drive the rail vehicle. Are they regulated by the DMV or the Federal Railroad Administration. Do they get Railroad Retirement Board benefits like the freight railroads? What is the salary of a train operator? WJetChao (talk) 23:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a link to the MTA benefits offered. Looks like you get a 401K and a pension. I don't know if that is railroad pension or CalPERS. And here is the job description for train operator. If you don't have any experience, you might qualify for the trainee program. RudolfRed (talk) 23:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to the LACMTA website and click through About Us...Metro Careers, you can find job descriptions and qualifications. Among other things, a full-time train operator requires a Class C California driver's license, 1 year of experience as a bus driver, a good driving record for the last 5 years, and be at least 21 years of age: [12]. The position is unionized; the pay grade is U31—I don't know what that translates to in dollars. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How many people on Disability Living Allowance are more disabled than Stephen Hawking?

I´d like to know how many of these disabled people on DLA are MORE disabled than Prof. Stephen Hawking who, as we all know, works (worked) for a living. I suggest the good professor should be used as the bench mark to decide who gets it and who doesn´t. We will see a dramatic decrease in DLA costs to the taxpayer, that´s for sure.. DanCollier1200 (talk) 23:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what response you expect to this. In all honesty I doubt you'll be able to find an answer to your (presumably non-rhetorical) query about how many people in the UK claiming DLA are "more disabled than Prof. Stephen Hawking". How do you expect to get such a thing? (As you well know, your penchant for slipping rant-y elements into your recent "questions" has already been noted and it is not particularly appreciated.) - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 23:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For a person that disabled be productively working they need an entirely brain oriented job. So any person with a greater degree of disability and still productively working would need a brain at least as smart as Hawking's. I hope this helps you guess at the answer yourself. HiLo48 (talk) 23:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Disability isn't an ordered thing - you can't say "X is more disabled than Y". It's far more complex than that. Your suggestions for public polity are not relevant to this reference desk, so please keep them to yourself. --Tango (talk) 00:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Around 30 million Britons are of below average intelligence, which is certainly a more serious disability when it comes to practicing theoretical physics. --Colapeninsula (talk) 00:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In future, let us just link "Not particularly Special:Contributions/DanCollier1200" or something to that effect, to make sure this person doesn't get a rise out of bothering us. Then others will see what he has been writing, and leave well enough alone. Eventually he will be blocked, and go away. IBE (talk) 00:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

January 17

@@ Line 130: / Line 130: @@
 :::Perhaps, idiomatically, "burn" is actually "hot" (as in physically attractive), so "That's hot - shake that ass!"? Sounds like a very plausible comment on a Facebook photo. ("meh" being the English slang expression of disinterest doesn't seem to fit the rest of it.) --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 00:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 ::::I thought that said 'bum'. I had to put it into a text editor to see it properly. Also, it looks like a question, so I would put it as 'Lol - hot - shaking those thighs?' Obviously something to do with dancing. <span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">[[User:KageTora|KägeTorä - (影虎)]] ([[User talk:KageTora|TALK]])</font></span> 01:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
+Just in case anyone is interested, the photo in question is this: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2181860245869&l=b5b298a899 [[Special:Contributions/117.227.46.61|117.227.46.61]] ([[User talk:117.227.46.61|talk]]) 08:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 == Train operator for [[LACMTA]] ==