Talk:Iraklis F.C. (Thessaloniki)

WHY?

Put Thessaloniki in the title? WHY? Reaper7 (talk) 18:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

PAOK FC - IRAKLIS FC

PAOK FC page doesnt have any Thessaloniki in the title!Why does Iraklis FC has?Can you please answer? Downfoot1 (talk) 11:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Outside Greece, the team is known as 'Iraklis Thessaloniki' (or 'Iraklis Salonika'). Since this is the most commonly used name for the team, I don't see why we should change it..Dimitris08 (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Importance rating

I rated it as an article of mid importance as it's the rating for Greek Superleague's teams in WikiProject Greece. Hansi667 (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Notable former players

I'm moving the list from the main page hereto be kept as an archive, since there are no clear inclusion or exclusion criteria in it.

Greece

• George Papadopoulos
• Kostas Aidiniou
• Giorgos Anatolakis
• Kostas Chalkias
• Thanasis Dimopoulos
• Grigoris Fanaras
• Kiriakos Fitilis
• Giorgos Foiros
• Georgios Georgiadis
• Dimitris Gesios
• Zaharias Haliabalias
• Minas Hantzidis
• Vassilis Hatzipanagis
• Pantelis Kapetanos
• Kostas Karapatis
• Fanis Katergiannakis
• Savvas Kofidis
• Christos Kostis
• Vagelis Kousoulakis
• Panagiotis Lagos
• Nikos Machlas
• Dimitris Mavrogenidis
• Albert Nahmias
• Takis Nikoloudis
• Daniil Papadopoulos
• Lakis Papaioannou
• Ilias Poursanidis
• Makis Sentelidis
• Ieroklis Stoltidis
• Efstathios Tavlaridis
• Fanis Tountziaris
• Bambis Xanthopoulos
• Thomas Zahariadis

Albania

• Altin Haxhi
• Lefter Millo
• Edwin Murati
• Arjan Xhumba

Argentina

• Sebastián Rambert

Brazil

• Ederson Fofonka

Cameroon

• Joël Epalle

Cyprus

• Michalis Konstantinou

Germany

• Andreas Reinke

Ghana

• Ebenezer Hagan

Iceland

• Sigurður Grétarsson

Italy

• Giuseppe Signori
• Samuele Dalla Bona

Liberia

• James Debbah
• Kelvin Sebwe

Nigeria

• Garba Lawal

Norway

• Tom Sundby

Poland

• Wojciech Kowalewski
• Cezary Kucharski
• Marcin Mięciel

Romania

• Nicolae Dică

Serbia

• Zoran Antonijević
• Jovan Gojković (†)
• Ivan Jovanović
• Dušan Mitošević
• Marko Pantelić

Spain

• Alberto Belsúe
• Aarón Ñíguez

Sweden

• Kennedy Bakircioglü

Hansi667 (talk) 17:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Iraklis having to compete in Delta Ethniki

Iraklis have been stripped off their professional licence by the Greek Professional Sports Committee on 26 September 2011, which means they cannot compete in any Greek professional football leagues (Super League, Football League or Football League 2) under their football company (PAE). This means that Iraklis could compete this year in Delta Ethniki, which is amateur, in EPSM (local and amateur) leagues, or, cease to compete or cease to exist, after being stiken out of EPO's logs and chapters.

The Greek Professional Sports Committee took the relevant decision as there was no relevant case folder submitted to it by (PAE, i.e. the company) Iraklis FC to be approved or even examined.... There was no appeal to this decision, and, or application for time extension before the case (about PAE Iraklis FC) would have been studied.

However, as it is quite common in Greece, the local media made up a story about how Iraklis could compete in some professional league (filling one of the empty spots that occured due to the Koriopolis scandal), like ACF Fiorentina did when it was promoted from Serie C2 directly to Serie B. However, the Greek media conviniently ommit that, A. Fiorentina made first a new company under a new name and, B. it played one year in Serie C2 and was to be promoted to Serie C1 and that was when it was instead promoted to Serie B, because the Serie B teams were increased that year.

So, if Iraklis was to follow that model, it'd have to play one year in Delta Ethniki, gain the right to be promoted and then be promoted not to Football League 2, but, to some higher division... for some reason or other.

This year, under no circumstances can this team compete in some Greek professional football league. So, at it's current edit, that's what the article says, assuming Iraklis will not fold or play in some even lower division than Delta Ethniki (which can no longer be done, as the EPSM championships have already started). So, Iraklis can either fold and cease to exist at all, compete in Delta Ethniki this year, or not compete at all in Greece, which may cause EPO's further reaction.

Also, since Iraklis is to compete in an amateur championship, its PAE (football ltd.) ceases to exist, and can compete as a TAP(paid footballers) or under its amateur mother club. 79.166.186.79 (talk) 23:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, first, you say yourself that there are a few possible scenarios in Iraklis's case and nobody knows what is going to happen. So, there is no reason to edit the article with some info that will later turn false.

The only fact is that Iraklis cannot compete in professional leagues. As of today, these include Super League, Football League and Football League 2. However, Greek FF may allow amateur clubs to compete in FL2, after a possible lower-division restructuring, due to the small number of professional teams left.

Besides that, even after the rejection by the Professional Sports Committee, PAE Iraklis does not cease to exist. There is a special procedure for the company to be shut down and only if the majority shareholder decides to do so. Until then it still exists as an inactive company. If in the future Iraklis's amateur department gets promoted to a professional league, the company could be reactivated.

There are also other scenarios, from a possible merge with another club (in this case, the company name will be different), to a possible close-down of the department by Iraklis GC (in this case, there will be no Iraklis FC).

As you see, I'm not trying to say that Iraklis can play to SL or FL this season. It is obvious that this is not possible in any way. I'm trying to prove that there is no reason for updating an article (of low importance) with information that change everyday. Iraklis page had numerous edits in the last 5 months, all of them with info which proved to be wrong. Maybe some of them were made in good faith, but since Wikipedia is not a news site, it's better for an article to be slightly outdated, than be filled with estimations and uncertainties.

I always try to edit the page with accurate information, in the most objective way possible and with WP:NOTNEWSPAPER in mind. I believe that my last attempts to edit the article were in this direction. If you have any objections to a particular change, I would like to hear it.

dimitris08 21:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are 21 spots to be filled for FL2, but, there are 10 champions from Delta Ethniki, and, no way too obvious reason for EPO to prefer Iraklis or any other demoted teams to fill those spots.... and, not some Delta Ethniki runner-up or whichever other team. You know that the most probable choice will be to promote the Delta Ethniki runners-up. Apart from that, the Professional Sports Committee decision means that your PAE does not lead the FC anymore (inactive or else), so, the article should lose the PAE designation. Apart from that, the thing to assume currently is that Iraklis will compete in Delta Ethniki.

About your mention of WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, it doesn't really apply, cause, as I copy:

"Wikipedia is not a newspaper

Ensure that Wikipedia articles are not:

1. Journalism. Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories.
2. News reports. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. (It refers to this Wikipedia:Notability (events).)
3. Who's who. Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be."

This policy is about what is notable enough to be included in wikipedia as an article, not about wikipedia not being updated to the current situation. Actually, sometimes, when a big event like a World Cup match is underway, wikipedia is constantly updated about it, even before it finishes or even half-time... :P

I know that you were probably referring to number 2, Iraklis FC not being notable enough for inclusion on wikipedia, though there are so many current sports news reports about it - after all what are 103 years compared to the eternity to make it notable enough? - but, I'll personally spare the article from a request to be deleted.... Mwahahaha :P

Use four ~, it will provide an automatic signature to what you write here. WP:TILDE

Heracletus (talk) 01:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I was referring to number 1, that's why I mentioned that Iraklis's article is of low importance (in contrast to other football articles, which have real-time updates due to increased worldwide interest). Noone will come to Wikipedia to read whether PAE Iraklis will be licenced or not, or to learn the latest details in the case. I think it is better to keep the article clean of uncertainty and update only for adding facts. Moreover, it has been proven a few times that greek sports media report false news (again, I'm not implying that Iraklis could compete in a higher division than Delta Ethniki).

The above is just to clarify my intentions for the previous edits I made to the article, since I am clearly against the narrow-minded football fans' point of view, which appears in many greek football articles. I would like to see the same formality in other articles as well.

dimitris08 (talk) 11:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

lies... lies.... :P 79.167.40.77 (talk) 21:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I do care.

Just an FYI for those keeping up this page. I came here for one reason and one reason only, to find out where Iraklis will be playing (if they will at all) this season.

For that reason, I would ask that you please keep this as up to date as possible.

Thanks.70.89.235.130 (talk) 07:25, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It will supposedly be decided by an open gathering of the Gymnastic Club Iraklis on Monday the 24th. Nominally, they can compete in Delta Ethniki or not at all... However, they could give their logo and brandname to some other club that competes in a higher (or lower, or any) league, something like Blah-blah FC o Iraklis bearing their logo.... Heracletus (talk) 19:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It's very nice that you care, but you should understand that the article cannot be updated until a final decision has been made. There is no way, however, that Iraklis will not compete in any league this year, as the team has been registered in Delta Ethniki. Iraklis will either play there, or they can attempt a doubtful merge with a FL or FL2 club (since it must be approved by the Professional Sport Committee). dimitris08 (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact that they registered doesn't mean they will compete.... It means it's most probable they will compete in Delta Ethniki. As it was most probable they'd compete there like a month ago, but, you kept changing the current league field.... :P Also, I will remove the PAE, you can add it back up when Iraklis competes as a company again. God, of all things to restore, you restored the company designation. Even now, Iraklis Gymnastic Club tries to distance itself from the Football Company (PAE) to pay less money to the Federation to compete in Delta Ethniki.... It's a shame Panteli decided to leave, he could keep the team away from competing in any league this year.... Heracletus (talk) 19:10, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Iraklis registered in Delta Ethniki, means exactly that they will compete in that league. The team will participate in the draw of the 2nd group and will be included in the fixtures. A month ago, the team wasn't included in any league. Stop acting like you know everything about Iraklis (apparently, you know who is the new owner and that Gogakos will be placed again as chairman of Iraklis GC) and just stick to the things that are officially announced. If you want to work as a reporter for the club, you are definitely in the wrong place. dimitris08 (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Ever since Iraklis hadn't got the licence from the Greek Committee for Professional Sports, it was pretty clear where they would compete. Also, I put Gogakos as chairman, because:

1. Iraklis FC is now run under Iraklis GS.

2. Gogakos is the current chairman of Iraklis GS (until he is replaced - by himself or other - because he has resigned)

I removed the owner, because the team is no longer a professional company, so, it has no owner.

Now, "3enidis" in this edit http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Iraklis_Thessaloniki_F.C.&oldid=457282342 would be what? regent? curator? what would be the correct translation and what will his office be?

I really don't understand why you don't like Gogakos as the current chairman? Also, i removed the dispute heading. Heracletus (talk) 13:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what Xenidis's role will be in the team (if he will ever have any). At the moment, he has no official connection with Iraklis, so he shouldn't be mentioned anywhere in the infobox. His name was added by someone who probably thinks that this article must follow the daily developments and speculations related to the future of the team. The last four months, Iraklis is in a transitional period and the "facts" are constantly changing. Right now, most of the administrative positions are vacant. Gogakos has resigned and no more acts like the club's chairman, Panteli is the owner (?) of a company which still exists, even if it doesn't participate in any league (it is not considered inactive yet, neither has been declared bankrupt).

I believe that updating just the infobox is meaningless, unless it's accompanied by a few explanatory words in the main part of the article. Or we can just wait for the situation to get more clear. dimitris08 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

If we don't include PAE Iraklis's data in the infobox, then Makis Katsavakis's name should be removed also, since he was appointed as manager by Panteli and has not yet agreed to continue with the team in Delta Ethniki. dimitris08 (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Gogakos has resigned, but, until there's a replacement, he's the (acting/caretaker) chairman of the club... If there's a decision to be taken or a paper to be signed, someone has to do it in the meantime and that is him, until the court replaces the current managing committee. Also, Katsavakis probably has (or was promised) a contract with PAE Iraklis, for the position of the club's manager, and hasn't resigned yet. However, well, if he hasn't indeed signed a contract, then, he shouldn't be mentioned as the manager. I think he's in the same situation as the players who had a contract with the PAE, so, he could be "automatically" released, but, it's up to him. Also, Xenidis can be only an έφορος, as the football team is directly under the GS, and not a TAP or PAE, and can't have a president or chairman of its own. Heracletus (talk) 23:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

And now, that the club's President/Chairman has changed, I changed it accordingly... But, where are you now to change it yourself or complain, Dimitri? Heracletus (talk) 04:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing to complain about. If you can offer to the article real-time update with valid and accurate info, maybe I should leave it all up to you.. :) dimitris08 (talk) 12:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Hahahaha, no. Heracletus (talk) 18:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Since G.S. Iraklis Thessaloniki decided to remove their team off Delta Ethniki and get into a merging deal with Pontioi Katerini F.C., the most lenient thing to do seems to be to merge the two articles, IF they share their players. IF no players from Iraklis are acquired by Pontioi Katerini F.C. and since Pontioi Katerini's ownership has not changed, it would seem that Pontioi just changed their colour and shirt identity, but, not really merged into one club with Iraklis. 46.177.127.207 (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Just wait, till the situation gets more clear. The sure thing is that there is no merging between the two teams. Iraklis GS has no longer a football section and from now on, AE Pontion will compete in Gamma Ethniki as AEP Iraklis. Since we don't know if this will be permanent, AEP's article (which is just a stub, btw) should remain as it is, with a redirecting paragraph to Iraklis's article. dimitris08 (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ahahaha, Dimitri, you prefer to change this article to reflect that Iraklis has no football section at the time? And, you do know that the plan of the G.S. is to continue not to have a football section even next year and to just have the (Iraklis) fans buy 49% of the renamed Pontioi, while the other 51% will still be owned by the Pontioi side. However, the Football Federation's site has Pontioi as A.E.P. Iraklis already [1] and as relevant legal procedures are highly unlikely to be seen online since it's Greece, I'm not exactly sure what should be done.

But, as an Aris fan, I'll gladly write that "Iraklis F.C.used to be a football team, until the original general Iraklis sports club decided to dissolve it and pay another team for it to use Iraklis logo and colours and change its name to Iraklis, so that Iraklis could compete to a higher (third-tier) division by proxy." However, to save you some face, I'd rather merge the two articles.

Also, I am quite puzzled by the lack of relevant announcements from Pontioi on their site: [2]. It seems like nothing has changed yet for them, no reference to any deal with Iraklis, no change on their logo or any reference to a name change....

Even if Iraklis F.C. is not officially pulled out of Delta Ethniki, if it misses another two games, it will be automatically disqualified. Also, there is still no decision about the game with Digenis Lakkoma from the federation. The rules call for -2 points from this year and -2 points from next year's championship for no appearance Article 21... However, if you merge with Pontioi after your football squad has been disbanded, you can compete in Football League 2 as Article 27 reads. I really don't see the reason why you don't officially merge or don't clearly call for such an intention. I think that probably Pontioi will also dissolve and together you'll constitute a new team, something along the lines of "(New) Iraklis Thessaloniki (1908)", in accordance with paragraph 4a, article 27, which will compete in the tier Pontioi compete at the time.

However, since Delta Ethniki games are local (i.e. they cost next to nothing to G.S.), I really cannot understand why you pulled out of the championship that soon, without a merge deal already announced. At present, if Pontioi just change their name, logo and colours again in the summer, Iraklis will either compete in EPSM, or not at all... I don't understand how the shame of competing in Delta Ethniki is more than the shame of not competing at all (since you've already played in Delta Ethniki) and supporting some other team. Of course, asking those devout fans to support both teams, until there's a merging agreement signed would be such a great burden for them... Can you imagine how they'd have to swear and cheer at two (or 3-4, along with basketball and volleyball) games per week?? While, now, you've shown THE MAN...

I regularly attend A.S. Aris matches in most sports, and I do respect our players, so it gives me no pleasure that you pulled out a youthful and truly devoted team even from the lowest-national-tier championship ...in order to support a team with which you will not merge until summer. "Wake me up when Sept... uhm, June ends".

I suppose we will wait until Iraklis officially pulls out of Delta Ethniki or is disqualified, to write about that, and until a deal for a merge is announced by both sides... But, really, how could anyone vote for a proxy team to be created and the original Iraklis FC to be disbanded, without being informed that there will be a merge (possibly into a new team) and that this has been signed and agreed upon per the relevant article??? Heracletus (talk) 11:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This is not literally a "merge". Pontioi have been merely renamed to AEP Iraklis, got Iraklis' logo and colors and moved to Thessaloniki: [3] So, I suggest we 1) keep this article as it is (adding a mention that Iraklis has withdrawn from Delta Ethniki, following a merger with Pontioi Katerini), and 2) move Pontioi Katerini F.C. to A.E.P. Iraklis and expand. Cheers. – Kosm1fent 14:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Someone created this AEP Iraklis F.C..... Merge, delete, etc under consideration. 79.167.106.104 (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

That's legit, I think. I will clean it up later. Let me just point out that AEP Iraklis is in fact Pontioi Katerinis carrying Iraklis' name, and therefore should be considered a continuation of Pontioi, as verified by the official announcement of amateur Iraklis: [4] – Kosm1fent 17:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not legitimate. The team concerned has made no announcement of any kind. All we have is the Iraklis announcement and some sites citing it and the name AEP Iraklis. For example, is it AEP Iraklis or AEP Iraklis 1908?? Has it officially changed its name or not yet?? Is it a merge? Were players transferred? The situation is not yet fully clear. Neither the federation (epae) or the team site denote any name or colours changes yet. Even the national federation has AEP Iraklis only in a minor link. My suggestion is to give things some time and try to reach a consensus. The articles are to probably be merged, as there's no point in having two stubs for a minor team and a huge one for a defunct team, if the two teams are to merge soon. 79.167.106.104 (talk) 18:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I found a better link, maybe that will ease your concerns: [5] Anyway, I am rewriting the article; if it gets merged, then at least some stuff will be useful for the Iraklis article. – Kosm1fent 18:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

"The situation is not yet fully clear". You don't say! That's what I wrote yesterday! This wikipedia guys! Not a sports forum! You are not obliged to make edits if you are not sure of what you are about to write. Just wait a few days for some official announcements... Iraklis's article has 50 hits per month. There is no reason to rush for changes, since it's clear that noone knows the complete details of the deal between the two clubs...dimitris08 (talk) 18:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

As it can be seen here [6][7], on a site that's friendly for Iraklis, the team played without a badge/logo on their shirts. That means nothing is yet final one side or the other. Thus, please refrain from changes on the Pontioi and on the Iraklis articles. The AEP Iraklis FC article could stay for now, but, its fate will be determined by what really happened and any consensus reached. Unluckily, the source you provided tell us nothing really new and most of it is not based on info provided by the teams. Again, the team played with their badges covered for obvious reasons.

Also, Dimitri, you could just tell us your opinion... I didn't create the AEP Iraklis article.... Some guy named ΟΣΦΠ did. 79.167.106.104 (talk) 18:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)