Talk:Elvis Presley

Template:VA

Elvis on Beale Street

Hey, yeah, it's just like old times here, only with some new names. Meanwhile, I'd like to suggest that BB King's Elvis on Beale Street be moved. "Clearly, it was Dewey who introduced Presley to Beale Street's juke joints and night spots, and he did so only after making hi instantly famous on Jluy 10, 1954... Dewey and Elvis: the life and times of a rock 'n' roll deejay. By Louis Cantor page 148. currently available (along with evidence to support this) through Google Books.) Oh, and Bill Haley was doing rockabilly in 1951, (Listen to Rocket 88 for example. [1] three years before Elvis was one of the "originators". Steve Pastor (talk) 23:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC) Yeah Steve,this sort of information you've put forward,I myself find so very interesting,rather than all that other irrelevant dribble. I also read someone that they say that the song "Rocket 88" by Jackie Brenston and the piano playing was Ike Turner,back in the 40's was considered by many to be the first R&B song.--Jaye9 (talk) 00:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The rockabilly thing jumped out at me too when I read the article - the claim that he was one of the originators is somewhat poorly sourced. "Popularizes" - of course! "Originators" - somewhat dubious.VolunteerMarek 22:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"Somewhat poorly sourced"? Are you serious? It's sourced to Paul Friedlander's Rock and Roll: A Social History, one of the more highly regarded reference works in the field, published by the well-respected Westview Press. Just to check myself, I grabbed my old copy of the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll off the shelf and looked up "rockabilly". Here's how the entry begins: "Rockabilly was Elvis Presley's music, the hybrid of blues and country that become rock & roll." In Rock Music Styles: A History (from McGraw-Hill, again a very well respected publishing house), Katherine Charlton flatly describes Presley as "rockabilly's originator." You may "feel" that he's not one of the originators of the genre, but high-quality sources belie that. DocKino (talk) 23:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

By March 1954 Bill Haley and Saddlemen/ Comets had 14 releases that Terry Gordon of the Rockin’ Country Style web site rate as “pertinent” in a discussion of what is most commonly known as “Rockabilly”. [2] Note that Sun hadn't recorded anything that would be released by Elvis. The problem is that many if not most authors either don't know about, or chose to ignore everything that came before Elvis. It would be more correct to state that "to the public at large", or "on the national stage", Elvis was appeaered to be an originator of the style. Steve Pastor (talk) 02:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

(1) While Gordon's efforts are impressive, in the end you're citing what a personal website calls "pertinent" to a discussion of rockabilly. That's rather meager countersourcing.

(2) We do not claim that Presley invented rockabilly. We identify him as "one of [its] originators." That modest claim is very well founded in high-quality sources. DocKino (talk) 05:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

"But would you agree with me that rock 'n' roll started with Sam Phillips' Sun label? He was recording-" "No, not really, no," Gene interrupted. "Can't say that Sorry. I know Sam real well and Sam picked up on something that was already happening." Gene Vincent being interviewed in "Race with the Devil" pgae 219. Steve Pastor (talk)

I agree with what I believe is your general philosophical point, which is that it's hard to identify anyone person or event as the "origin" of any musical genre. But again, we don't claim that Presley invented rockabilly and/or rock 'n' roll. We describe him as an originator. That's a different, much more modest, and very well support description. Right? DocKino (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I only mentioned this in passing, but when another editor picked up on it, I decided to begin sharing what I've learned over the past year or two (or three?), since I decided my time on this article was no longer justified and decided to pursue other interests that turned out to lead back here. Anyhow, it's my opinion that a more nuanced statement would better represent the facts, rather than simply going with what most authors have written. If no other editors agree, and I have completed the presentation of those facts, or it turns out that no one is interested, I will rest my case.

Vincent goes on to say, "But a lot of people were doing it before that, especially Carl Perkins." Steve Pastor (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Although we did not agree in certain points in the past, Steve, in this case I would like to support your view. Colin Escott and Martin Hawkins write:

• "It is now established that rock music did not originate with the Beatles or even with Elvis Presley a decade earlier and much rock literature has rightly emphasized the importance of the many forms of ethnic music that preceded the rock revolution. 'Rockabilly' was there at the beginning. It was basically hyperactive country music which borrowed in mood and emphasis from commercial rhythm and blues. Rockabilly has become identified with Sun Records..."

and therefore Escott and Hawkins's book "uses a study of Sun — its distinctive sound, its artists, and its market — as a starting point for a wider study of rockabilly music." See Colin Escott and Martin Hawkins, Sun Records: The Brief History of the Legendary Recording Label (1980), p.i. The authors add on p.64:

• "What made rockabilly fascinating was its compulsive rhythm with the accent on the second and fourth beats, usually achieved without the use of a heavy drummer. Other instruments used in the early days were the fiddle and, later, the saxophone when artists had designs on a hit record."

Did Elvis's band members use fiddles? Earlier rockabilly artists obviously did. This means that Elvis was not the originator of rockabilly. Here is another source that discusses the "Rockabilly ideal", i.e. "rebellion against societal controls, excess, hedonism, and a sense of a community among outsiders":

• "These points indicate that Rockabilly was not an isolated phenomenon; its salient features relate it to other musical and cultural movements taking place all over the United States in the 1940's and 1950s. Most of the studies of Rockabilly have emphasized its regional origins. This specific musical fusion of black rhythm and blues and white country music and gospel took place in and around Memphis, Tennessee in 1954; it spread throughout the mid-South region (Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas) between 1954 and 1956; and finally became a national and international form of popular music from 1956 to 1958, when it was absorbed by a developing mainstream rock 'n' roll. Early Rockabilly was characterized by a set instrumentation of acoustic rhythm guitar, electric lead guitar, and stand-up string bass, with drums and piano sometimes added later; the use of echo on lead vocal; and heavy rhythms with accents on the second and fourth beats (...). Colin Escott and Martin Hawkins call Rockabilly a "basically hyperactive country music which borrowed in mood and emphasis from commercial rhythm and blues" (...). The musical influences on Rockabilly were only partially regional, and even the immediate regional precursors of Rockabilly — hillbilly boogie, honky-tonk, western swing, and bluegrass — had already been affected by national popular musical forms such as jazz, blues, vaudeville, and rhythm and blues."

See The Southern Quarterly, vol. 22, 1983, p.79. Calling Elvis one of the originators of rockabilly (as in the Wikipedia article) seems wrong to me, in view of the sources cited above. Other musicians were the originators. Onefortyone (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Great. Now in addition to one strong source that identifies Presley as "rockabilly's originator" and a second that calls rockabilly "essentially an Elvis Presley construction", we now have confirmation from a third that says of rockabilly, "This specific musical fusion of black rhythm and blues and white country music and gospel took place in and around Memphis, Tennessee in 1954"--exactly where and when Presley's career began. Just as the "rockabilly" entry in the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll puts it: "Rockabilly was Elvis Presley's music." The matter is settled: the historical consensus is very, very clear--Presley was one of rockabilly's originators. Let's move on. DocKino (talk) 23:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, DocKino, it is a historical fact that the origin of Rockabilly was only partially regional, as the same source later emphasizes (contrary to the studies of Rockabilly that have made the claim of its regional origins), and that Elvis was not its originator. Rockabilly was already there before Elvis appeared on the scene. He only made Rockabilly very popular, that's true. Onefortyone (talk) 23:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, exactly! We don't say that rockabilly had an originator. And, of course, the influences on it were by no means merely regional. But all the sources agree that it arose in and around Memphis in 1954, and that Presley was one of the originators. We nailed this one! DocKino (talk) 00:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

You are wrong as Rockabilly was already there shortly before Elvis appeared on the scene. According to Escott and Hawkins's book, Sun Records — its distinctive sound, its artists, and its market — was a big starting point for rockabilly, and Sun started operations on March 27, 1952. Onefortyone (talk) 00:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

What?! You've lost the thread, my friend. Sun Records didn't invent rockabilly by opening its doors. You must have been joking there, right? So: We have one high-quality source that flatly describes Presley as "rockabilly's originator". We have a second high-quality source that calls rockabilly "essentially an Elvis Presley construction". Where's the high-quality source that claims "rockabilly was already there shortly before Elvis appeared on the scene"? I haven't found that source. Steve Pastor hasn't found that source. And you most certainly haven't. So...we're done here. DocKino (talk) 00:19, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I have already cited my sources above. Onefortyone (talk) 00:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we've all cited many sources. And no high-quality source asserts that rockabilly was a fully formed genre before Elvis started his professional career. Thanks for all your hard work. DocKino (talk) 00:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source explicitly stating that Elvis was not the originator of Rockabilly. It cites Carl Perkins who

• has been called one of the originators of rockabilly. But Carl steadfastly refuses to take primary credit for this accomplishment. " [Sam] Phillips, Elvis, and I didn't create rockabilly; it was just the white man's response to the black man's spiritualness. It was born in the South. People working those cotton fields as I did as a youngster would hear black people singing . . . There's a lot of cats that was doin' our things, and maybe better, that were never heard of — they're the ones that created rockabilly, the ones who never even got on record. We're just the lucky ones."

See Wayne Jancik, The Billboard Book of One-Hit Wonders (1998), p.16. This means that neither Elvis nor Perkins were the originators of Rockabilly. Onefortyone (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Let's note that when Haley covered Rocket 88 in 1951 - that's 3 years before Elvis - Sam Phillips did the production in Jackie Brenston's version. Those are a fact, unlike the opinions written by many writers whom DocKeno continues to cite. Perhaps Phillips never heard what Haley did with the song, an arrangment that had the esential elements of "rockabliiy", again, as evaluated by someone who spent thousands of hours creating a database on the subject.

In 1953 just about one year before Elvis recorded at Sun, Haley and the Comets had a song that was #12 in the nation, having climed the charts since April of that year. Haley's rockabilly effort was even featured on the The “Glory in the Flower” episode of the CBS Omnibus dramatic series, broadcast on October 4, 1953 from 5:00-6:30pm Eastern time. the ifirst time this type of music was played on national television in the US. It would have been hard for Phillips and Elvis to miss that one. Again we are still in the days BE (Before Elvis). Steve Pastor (talk) 22:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Once again, Steve, Terry Gordon ("someone who spent thousands of hours creating a database on the subject") has a wonderful, useful site in "Rockin' Country Style", but this is simply not a reliable source per our WP:Verifiability policy. Also, you need to recognize Gordon's own definition of his site's scope: it "attempts to list every rock & roll single aimed at the country & western market and every pop rock & roll single whose style was primarily derived from country-oriented rock & roll." Gordon never uses the the term "rockabilly" and obviously, far from every song he lists would qualify as rockabilly--do keep that in mind when you use the site for your personal research purposes in the future. Finally, note his five strongly positive criteria for inclusion in the category of "Genres":

• Sounds like Elvis on Sun
• Sounds like Carl Perkins
• Sounds like Jerry Lee Lewis
• Sounds like Elvis on RCA, 1956-58
• Sounds like Charley Ryan's "Hot Rod Lincoln"

That's Elvis first, and Elvis twice. But you think it's a stretch to identify him as an originator of the sound Gordon is interested in? That's just not a viable position.

So that leaves us with this from your most recent comment: In 1953, Haley and the Comets had a #12 hit--"Crazy Man, Crazy", to be specific. It's not clear what relevance that has to the description of Presley as one of rockabilly's originators. Does any high-quality source, for instance, describe "Crazy Man, Crazy" as the song that defined the new genre of rockabilly? Anything like that at all? DocKino (talk) 22:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I did some further research. In his Complete Idiot's Guide to Elvis (1997), p.85, Frank Coffey writes that " 'Crazy Man Crazy' was the first rockabilly record to make the Billboard pop chart in 1953." According to Michael Campbell’s Popular Music in America (3rd edition, 2009), p.161, Carl Perkins was of the opinion that "rockabilly music was a country man’s song with a black man’s rhythm" continuing a long line of country takes on black music. The author adds that "the sound of rockabilly was not confined to Memphis or even the South. The idea of countrifying rhythm and blues had spread throughout North America." This author further writes that "Bill Haley recorded the first big rockabilly hit." According to Craig Morrison’s Go Cat Go! Rockabilly Music and its Makers (1996), p.35, Bill Haley’s Rock the Joint of 1952 is "bona fide rockabilly, perhaps even the birth of the style." In his Supremely American: Popular Song in the 20th Century (2005), p.134, Nicholas E. Tawa writes that the first white offerings of rock 'n' roll were given the designation "rockabilly" and that "Rock 'n' roll emerged more clearly as a white genre with the 1953 record 'Crazy Man Crazy,' sung by Bill Haley." According to Brock Helander’s The Rockin' '50s: The People who made the Music (1998), p.13, "Rockabilly developed in the early to mid '50s. It usually featured frantic, uninhibited lead vocals, a wild stinging lead guitar, and thumping stand-up bass. Rockabilly found its first widespread expression thanks to Sun Records... Bill Haley and the Comets were perhaps the earliest purveyors of rockabilly... They scored major pop hits from 1953 to 1956 with songs such as 'Crazy, Man, Crazy,' 'Dim, Dim the Lights,' the classic 'Rock Around the Clock' (...), 'Burn That Candle,' and 'See You Later, Alligator.' " All of these sources clearly support Steve Pastor's view that there were rockabilly songs before Elvis appeared on the scene. Onefortyone (talk) 00:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow. Talk about cherry picking, and intellectual dishonesty. Let's take a look at just one of your sources: Morrison's Go Cat Go! He states in his preface,

Rockabilly crystallized into a recognizable style in 1954 with Elvis Presley's first release, on the Sun label of Memphis. Presley announced the arrival of rockabilly through his dynamic stage act, and the style spread into Arkansas, Mississippi, Texas, Louisiana, and neighboring states. Musicians inspired by Presley joined the movement, bringing their own backgrounds. (p. x)

Let's take a look at another source you've brought in, Tawa's Supremely American:

Rockabilly ripened in Memphis, where Sam Phillips' Sun Records, a small regional outfit nurtured it.... Among the most seminal musicians were Elvis Presley, Carl Perkins, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Roy Orbison.... Over the next two years [beginning in 1956], a string of number-one recorded hits [by Presley] dominated the charts and went a long way toward defining the rockabilly style.... (pp. 134–35)

There is no question that Haley was an important influence on the development of rockabilly; similarly, there is no question that Presley was one of the style's originators--indeed, multiple sources (Friedlander, Charlton, Morrison, Rolling Stone Encyclopedia) identify him as the most significant originator. That there were songs before 1954 that may retrospectively be identified as rockabilly does not contradict that observation in any way. Once again, and for the last time, the critical consensus is undeniable: Presley was one of rockabilly's originators, exactly as we state. We don't need to spend any more time and energy on this. DocKino (talk) 03:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

No, according to the sources I have cited, Elvis wasn't an originator of Rockabilly. He was among those (and perhaps the most significant musician) who made it very popular. Onefortyone (talk) 03:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's just a blatant falsehood. Morrison, as quoted above, inarguably identifies Presley as an originator of rockabilly--"Rockabilly crystallized into a recognizable style in 1954 with Elvis Presley's first release." We're done here. DocKino (talk) 03:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Does this author state that Elvis was an originator of Rockabilly? No, he doesn't. Onefortyone (talk) 04:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Ha! He obviously does, as anyone who understands the English language and is intellectually honest can plainly read. As does Friedlander. As does Charlton. As does Tawa. As does the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia. But you go on pretending otherwise...it won't make any difference to the content of our Featured Article. DocKino (talk) 04:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

My dictionary of the English language says that "origin" , "crystallization" and "recognition" are different things. As Carl Perkins says: " [Sam] Phillips, Elvis, and I didn't create rockabilly; it was just the white man's response to the black man's spiritualness. It was born in the South. People working those cotton fields as I did as a youngster would hear black people singing . . . There's a lot of cats that was doin' our things, and maybe better, that were never heard of — they're the ones that created rockabilly, the ones who never even got on record. We're just the lucky ones."Onefortyone (talk) 04:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you've quoted Carl Perkins before. This may come as a surprise to you, but quoting him again doesn't bolster your position. DocKino (talk) 04:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

And what about the rockabilly experts who say that 'Crazy Man Crazy' was the first rockabilly record?" Onefortyone (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself here. As I stated above, that there were songs before 1954 that may retrospectively be identified as rockabilly does not contradict the evident critical consensus that Presley was one of the originators of rockabilly. DocKino (talk) 05:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

This may be your personal opinion, but it is not in line with the sources I have cited above. Onefortyone (talk) 05:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, but what you've just said is false. Not only is it in line with the sources already cited in the article, it's in line with both Morrison and Tawa, who you happily brought to our attention. In fact, I think it will be most useful to quote Morrison's comment, "Rockabilly crystallized into a recognizable style in 1954 with Elvis Presley's first release", in our article. DocKino (talk) 05:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

If it is also mentioned that Elvis was not the originator of rockabilly but helped that it could crystallize into a recognizable style in 1954, this may be a good idea. Onefortyone (talk) 05:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Bill Haley (The Saddlemen) Rock the Joint Essex 303— "Jumpy opus is an odd mixture of c.&w. and r.&b." from Billboard Apr 26, 1952. More than two years B.E. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Steve, you repeatedly referred to Gordon's "Rockin' Country Style" in a vain attempt to somehow prove that Presley was not a seminal rockabilly figure. I demonstrated conclusively that Gordon--if we are to interpret "rockin' country style" to mean rockabilly--MUCH more strongly identifies the rockabilly style with Presley than with Haley. What do you have to say about that? Were you, perhaps, wrong? DocKino (talk) 08:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Now that you are familiarizing yourself with the RCS site, you might want to go to the Advance Search page and do a search for "perintent" songs in the year 1952, then 1953. You will see numerous songs by numerous artists. You will also see that there are many more in 1953 than in 1952. Thank you for your continuing comments as I continue to present the information I have come across since leaving this article years(?) ago. Upon completion of that presentation, and perhaps a more concise statement of the points presented, we will see if other editors agree with my suggestion that the current statement should be modified. Steve Pastor (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Steve. I'm perfectly happy with that--it would be great if we had other editors joining in...any editors other than 141, who I do not believe is participating honestly or for sincere reasons. That said...

Here's what I'm seeing as I consider the wealth of information on the RCS site: yes, there was a lot happening in 1952 and especially 1953 that was pertinent to the development of rockabilly. But the consensus among critics/historians is that it didn't all come together in the form we now recognize as quintessential rockabilly until 1954. Looking at the range of how that's stated, I believe it is Morrison who comes closest as any one writer can come to expressing the consensus view: "Rockabilly crystallized into a recognizable style in 1954 with Elvis Presley's first release."

Steve, if you know other Wikipedians who are familiar and/or interested in this period of popular music history who you'd like to invite to look over the sources and weigh in, I'm all in favor of getting more eyes on the topic. DocKino (talk) 21:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Just another opinion on Elvis for today. “Elvis Presley is an after-the-fact personality in regard to the origin of rock ‘n’ roll, but his sudden and enormous popularity played a key role…” Rock! It’s Still Rhythm and Blues. Lawrence N. Redd. The Black Perspective in Music, Vol 13 No 1 Spring 1985 p 39. More to come over the next few days. Steve Pastor (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

More on Haley in 1953. Billboard noted in the “Popular “ record section, “Real Rock Drive” (Essex 311) had a “relaxed, free swing” delivery, while “Stop Beatin’ Round the Mulberry Bush” had “a driving beat” in an “exciting lively rendition” with a “frenetic quality”. Jan 24, 1953 p 37. For the June 1953 release of “Fractured” and “Pat-a-Cake” Essex (327) Billboard wrote that both sides were “mighty potent,” “another wild driving disking,” “crazy backing” “that really goes,” “a driving beat” <Aug 1, 1953>. Next Haley releases in September “A wild and wooly item” that could easily cut across classifications” according to Billboard reviews. After the release of “Rock the Joint” promotional materials for Bill Haley and the Saddlemen went like this They’re Rockin’ the Show World with a Modern Cowboy Swing and Jive… ” “Jive, Cowboy, Popular, Hillbilly, The Most Versatile Band in the Land”. Soon we'll see that even the name that stuck for this music has an origin story from Before Elvis recorded his first session with Scotty and Bill. Steve Pastor (talk) 02:27, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

That may well be, but while the fascinating information you've provided is obviously highly relevant to Bill Haley, clearly relevant to the history of rock 'n' roll, and likely relevant to the history of rockabilly, it is not particularly relevant to THE question: whether Elvis Presley was one of the orginators of rockabilly. Historians clearly concur that he was, and none of this information about Haley's "driving beat" does anything to change that. DocKino (talk) 07:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a book I've been looking into purchasing today, mainly because it includes information about Elvis, but it's primarily about the history of Rockabilly. It's from last year, so I'm assuming fairly up to date with its research, and is written by Greil Marcus with input from Michael Dregni, Peter Guralnick, Luc Sante, Robert Gordon, Sonny Burgess. Each of these names are very well known within the Elvis community, and all of them are considered very knowledgeable when it comes to his life and career. Several of them, if not all, are considered highly credible music historians in their own right outside of Elvis. Here's some of what the book had to say regarding Elvis and Rockabilly.

• "Rockabilly came and went like a Saturday night. Its arrival can be pinpointed: July 5, 1954, the night Elvis Presley, Scotty Moore, and Bill Black recorded “That’s All Right” in Memphis’ Sun Studios."
• "They struggled as well to find a name for the music - a label to denigrate it for do-gooders and moral watchdogs; a code name for the adherents to recognize each other. Elvis’ audience in the early days was mostly country fans - albeit a younger country fan and, more and more, a female one as well. His music was labelled country bop or hillbilly bebop, blending the sense of backwoods mysticism with the hottest and wildest jazz then making the rounds. Some few newspaper and magazine writers called it “rockabilly”, but it was not common coin back then. Still, it proved a fine term, distinguishing this Southern white country music from the rock ‘n’ roll perpetrated by Little Richard and Fats Domino in New Orleans, Ike Turner and Jackie Brenston, Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley laid down in Chicago, and even the Tin Pan Alley rock ‘n’ roll of Bill Haley and His Comets."
• "“That’s All Right” was more than just all right - it was the song that jumpstarted rockabilly. The story of the session has become legend: Derived from Mississippi Delta bluesman Arthur “Big Boy” Crudup’s 1946 recording, “That’s All Right, Mama” Elvis and the erstwhile Starlite Wranglers created rockabilly ground zero."
• "At the start, this was Southern music. And even more so, regional music. It came of course from Memphis, but soon spread across the South from Alabama to Mississippi to Arkansas and Louisiana and on to Texas. Then inspired by Elvis, there was soon rockabilly being cut in California, even in the cold north from Washington to Minnesota to Massachusetts - and across the ocean to France and Great Britain - anywhere the germ could travel."
• "Released on April 25, 1955, “Baby Let’s Play House” immediately became Elvis’ most imitated song - a blueprint for rockabilly thereafter."
• "Elvis invented rockabilly. He also invented Rockabilly Style. Looking back at Elvis’ slicked-back pompadour, two-tone shoes, baggy pants, and too-sharp suits in pink and black, he personified the classic 1950s rockin’ look. But before Elvis became famous, his style was considered so outlandish and weird that it was downright shocking. As Elvis’ guitar man, Scotty Moore, remembered, “When I first met Elvis, when he came to my house on that Sunday afternoon, he had on a pink shirt, pink pants with white stripes down the leg, and white shoes. And I thought my wife was gonna go out the back door. Again, just the shock, because people just weren’t wearin’ that kind of flashy clothes at the time. He had sideburns and the ducktails - just a lotta hair.”

I don't know all that much about the history of rockabilly, but when I read parts of the book I thought it might be relevant to this conversation. The book is called Rockabilly: The Twang Heard 'round the World - The Complete Illustrated History, and it's available to buy now. Here is a link to the google pages that I have quoted above. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 14:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Johnny and Dorsey Burnette, assisted by their friend guitarist Paul Burlison, jumped ahead of history in 1953 by rocking up the traditional country songs of the day and performing forbidden up-tempo, segregated black songs in the joints around Memphis, Tennessee. In fact, they were the first musical pio­neers who helped to found Rockabilly music-a year before Elvis Presley's Big Bang "accident" of 1954. from "The Rockabilly Legends" by Jerry Naylor and Steve Haliday. 2007. More to come from this source. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

That same book you've mentioned cites Elvis as one of the "Rockabilly Legends celebrated in this book". As this discussion is primarily about whether or not Elvis can be considered one of the originators of rockabilly, I think nearly every source so far has agreed that he can be. The article doesn't state he was the inventor, so I don't see the problem. Perhaps the word "originator" is the problem. Maybe a word such as "innovators" or "groundbreakers" would be more appropriate? Or "trendsetters", "trailblazers", "pioneers"? The book also says the following;

• [In the fifties]... a powerful new movement in music began to change the world, led by a young truck driver from Tupelo, Mississippi, who became the “King of Rockabilly”!

That's pretty plain to me. However you look at it, Elvis had a huge role to play in the history of rockabilly music, not necessarily as it's creator, but certainly as one of the most important characters in its success and movement. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Right. We'll get to where you can hear Elvis says that what he Scotty and Bill just recorded "sounds like Carl Perkins", and how he knew what Perkins was already doing (and the Dorsey's et al). To me that means he knew he hadn't exactly created something new. So, don't anyone get me wrong. Elvis was HUGH in his impact, and he did bring something new - mostly his voice - to the mix. I like "trendsetter". But even a footnote might capture it. Don't know yet. But thankfully, I've got just a few more items to post over the next few days. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the term "trendsetter". I think it's a good middle ground. Although to be fair to the current article, that's two sources I've read now, including your own, that state Elvis was there at the birth of Rockabilly. With statements like that, it's very easy to understand how Elvis could be thought of as some sort of originator. Sounding similar to something does not make it any less new. Nearly every musical genre in the last 50 years could have been compared to something that came before it, in some form. Reading a little further in the book you've just introduced to us, it says the following with regards to rockabilly music;

• The only fact on which most everyone agrees is that Rockabilly music was born on the sweltering night of July 5, 1954, when a young truck driver turned struggling singer was nervously horsing around during a coffee break of a demo session at a tiny Memphis recording studio. That young Mississippian led the rockabilly explosion - a new type of music that ignited young people all across the nation while at the same time causing panic among parents and preachers. But he never would have caught anyone’s attention at all without the help of a creative, eccentric businessman named Sam Phillips. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

When Elvis walked into the Sam Phillips Recording Service, he was asked by Phillips's assistant Keisker, "What kind of singer are you?" Elvis said, "I sing all kinds." ... "Hillbilly?" "Yeah, I sing hillbilly." He just summarized what was already there - various blends of blues, R&B, country etc. Only his voice was unique. There can be no doubt that the earliest rockabilly songs were sung by others. As Michael Campbell, in his Popular Music in America, says: "Bill Haley recorded the first big rockabilly hit." (3rd edition, 2009), p.161.) Onefortyone (talk) 01:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This is another one of the problems here, hillbilly music vs rockabilly. The two are different types of music. The article doesn't claim that Elvis was one of the originators of hillbilly. Rockabilly might have been born out of hillbilly music, but it wasn't hillbilly music. Every source I've read on this, including ones cited within this discussion, states that Elvis, Scotty and Bill, in Sun Studios, Memphis, created what would go on to be known as rockabilly. A new source I've read recently says "Elvis undisputably stands as the progenitor of the new idiom". I like the word progenitor. As I said above to Steve, perhaps the word originator is the problem here, maybe it should be changed. However, it cannot be ignored that what Elvis, Scotty and Bill did in early July 1954 is considered by the vast majority of sources, music historians, and other musicians, as the birth of "rockabilly". Even if we don't want to state that Elvis was the inventor or rockabilly, there's definitely enough evidence to suggest he was one of the most important figures in its development between 1954 and 1956. Now, had Marion Keisker asked Elvis if he sung "Rockabilly", you'd have an excellent point. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 09:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, let me just say that there are sources on the table that don't agree that Elvis, Bill, Scotty, and Sam Phillips started it. (see Gene Vincent's flat out statement for one.) One question would be, what do the authors do to dismiss the music that, in retrospect is rockabilly (that would be the small number that managed to get recorded)? Or, do they just ignore it. "Legends of Rockabilly" contradicts itself with their information about Carl Perkins and the Burnettes. Here's what the book says about Perkins. "Carl Perkins and his two brothers, Jay and Clayton, played all the area honky-tonks and gained a strong following with their innovatiove, high spirited type of country music. Most requests of the racous Perkins Brothers band were for hillbilly songs that the boys would jive up - classic Hamk WIlliams standards infused with a faster rhythm. Carrl ignited the songs with his black oriented lead guitar playing, borhter Clayton chopped wood by slapping that bass fiddle, while borther Jay flooged his old acoustic guitar." Change the names and you have the same line up Phillips put together for the Sun session. See also the line up for Haley's early work evaluated as rockabilly by Terry Gordan. And, it seems that Elvis, and probably Scotty and Bill knew what Perkins was doing up in Jackson.

Remember, too, that the term rockabilly was not being used widely yet. (Western Swing was didn't have that name for about 10 years from the time people started playing it.) But... Steve Pastor (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Just for a new start, why has this well-sourced and useful edit been removed from the Elvis article? Onefortyone (talk) 21:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The question, rather, is why was it ever introduced? The paragraph in question clearly seeks to summarize the consensus view among music historians about Presley's role in the development of rockabilly. Perkins, though a significant historical figure, is no historian, and his rather philosophical musings on the origins of rockabilly are more appropriate for the article on Perkins himself. DocKino (talk) 21:23, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The edit clearly demonstrates that there is no consensus view among music historians. Apart from Elvis, Carl Perkins has also been called one of the originators of rockabilly by some critics. If he says that he and Elvis didn't create rockabilly, then this statement is of much importance. As the quotes above show, there are music historians who are of the opinion that rockabilly developed in the early to mid '50s, i.e. before Elvis appeared on the scene, and that Bill Haley recorded the first big rockabilly hit. If these sources contradict your sources, then these contradictions must be mentioned in the article according to Wikipedia policies. Onefortyone (talk) 21:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The article does not claim that Elvis "created" rockabilly. And the edit in question is a quotation from the musician Carl Perkins--in no way does that demonstrate anything about the consensus among music historians concerning Presley's central role in the development of rockabilly. The argument you have presented is illogical. DocKino (talk) 21:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, as the article cites Katherine Charlton, who calls Elvis "rockabilly's originator", other opinions by experts that contradict her statement must also be mentioned. Onefortyone (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Perkins's involvement in the early rockabilly scene does not make him a historical "expert." As for Charlton's statement, it is no more than a particularly strong iteration of the consensus view; the voice of the article clearly takes a more moderate position. DocKino (talk) 22:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Because Perkins is a big figure in the early rockabilly scene, his statement as an expert is of much importance. He must have known what was already there before he and Elvis appeared on the scene. As for Charlton's opinion, it is not a consensus view, as several experts are of a different opinion. Onefortyone (talk) 22:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

You are going in circles. There is no point in further engaging with these illogical arguments. We'll see if ElvisFan and Steve make any progress. DocKino (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Steve Pastor, who is one of the rockabilly experts here, seems to agree with my opinion. Interestingly, there seems to be no consensus about the definition of "rockabilly". Here is an interesting passage from Craig Morrison's Go Cat Go! Rockabilly Music and its Makers (1996), p.9-10:

• Brian Taylor ... did not think rockabilly could be precisely defined — "one man's rockabilly is another man's hillbilly or rock 'n' roll" — but named records widely accepted as rockabilly: Presley and Perkins on Sun and the first King recordings of Charlie Feathers and Mac Curtis. He suggested that the following questions are unanswerable: "'Is no Haley or [Ricky] Nelson material rockabilly — 'Can one have fiddle or steel or harmonica on rockabilly?' — 'If Johnny Carroll is rockabilly, why not Gene Vincent? — 'Are both or neither of Holly's cuts of "That'll Be the Day" rockabilly?'"

In view of this statement by a rockabilly expert, does it make sense to call Elvis one of the originators of rockabilly? I don't think so. Why not just say, "Presley was one of the greatest performers and popularizers of rockabilly" ? Onefortyone (talk) 23:23, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for introducing something new. And it's yet another source that supports the description of Presley as one of rockabilly's originators. Of course, there are always questions of definition around the perimeter of any genre. But consensus defines the core. Who does Taylor identify as making "records widely accepted as rockabilly"? Why, Presley and Perkins, along with Feathers and Curtis, who came a little bit later. That strongly suggests that Presley--like Perkins--is one of the originators of the sound most widely accepted as "rockabilly". The case for the article's current language is getting stronger and stronger, though I'd like a little more information on Taylor's qualifications as an "expert". DocKino (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

You are wrong, DocKino, as the quote strongly suggests that Elvis should not be called "one of the originators of rockabilly", as there is no exact definition of the term and of the period of time during which the sound was actually created. The other sources cited above clearly say that what has been called "rockabilly" was already there in the early 50s, i.e. before Elvis recorded his first records. By the way, Steve Pastor is also of the opinion that "one of the originators" isn't the right expression. Onefortyone (talk) 23:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

And once again, you pose an illogical and ahistorical argument. Just because there are disagreements about the parameters of a genre definition does not mean that it is impossible to speak sensibly about a genre's "originators" or those in synonymous positions--many critics and historians do. (Indeed, by your illogic, no one could speak of rockabilly at all, because "there is no exact definition of the term.") Taylor clearly affirms that Presley is one of the earliest musicians who made "records widely accepted as rockabilly" [emphasis added]. As for Steve, I am, of course, very, very, very familiar with his position, which rests on observations about songs and musicians variously "pertinent" to rockabilly's development and which happens to be belied by the clear, explicit statements made by multiple music historians that Presley was an originator of rockabilly and was central to the genre's development. DocKino (talk) 00:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Though Elvis was central to the genre's development and popularization, he should not be called an originator, as, according to some experts, the sound that is now called rockabilly (a sound that cannot be exactly defined) was created before Elvis recorded at Sun Studio. Why not avoid the term "originator"? Onefortyone (talk) 00:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

There seems little debate here or elsewhere about the phrasing and sense of what's now in the primary text: "Presley was a central figure in the development of rockabilly." For the terser phrasing we need in the lead section, I'd be okay if we replaced "one of the originators" with "one of the vanguard performers". Let's hear from ElvisFan and Steve. DocKino (talk) 01:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Here are my thoughts on the latest source provided by 141;

• It does suggest that defining what is and isn't rockabilly is difficult. With the exception of Presley and Perkins, Feathers and Curtis, it doesn't want to name anyone as definitely being rockabilly. To me, that says that Presley can definitely be considered rockabilly, and as there are no names mentioned before him, it's not unrealistic to consider him an "originator". Every other source I've read so far, including ones cited here by other editors, has also agreed that Presley is the originator of rockabilly.
• If defining rockabilly, with the exception of the names mentioned above, is so difficult, how can we possibly be sure that anything prior to July 5, 1954 is rockabilly and not just hillbilly? As I've stated previously, they are different musical genres, and therefore hillbilly, regardless of how similar it sounds to rockabilly, cannot be considered actual rockabilly.
• By stating that it's impossible to answer whether or not recordings by Haley were rockabilly, it makes all other claims within this discussion void. If it's impossible to define Haley's music as rockabilly, then we can't accept any source that suggests it is rockabilly. Again, every source I've read so far, including several on this page, have called Haley "rock and roll", not rockabilly. I have to admit, from a personal point of view, I don't hear any similarities between any Haley recording and Presley's first recordings at Sun. I've never thought of Bill Haley's music as anything but early rock and roll.
• It does mention Perkins as a definite rockabilly musician. Other sources I've looked at have stated that Perkins' first, real rockabilly performance was Blue Suede Shoes. He didn't write that until 1955, at least six months after Presley began recording professionally at Sun. Therefore, yet again, Presley's name comes first with regards to rockabilly.

In 141's own words, this source is from a "rockabilly expert", and therefore it can be considered fair to use in the argument that Presley was the originator, not just "one of the originators", of rockabilly. I've said before that the word "originator" might be what some editors here have a problem with, yet even some sources provided by those editors has claimed Presley as the "originator" of rockabilly. If I was writing this article from scratch, taking into account the sources I've read regarding rockabilly, at this point I would have no problem with using the term "one of the originators" again. At this point, after much discussion and reading of many sources, I don't think there's enough reason to change the current article's wording regarding this matter. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 06:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

As an editor with very limited experience on this page, this discussion seems to be an exercise in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. A reliable source (in fact a textbook) supports the statement; the statement is attributed in-text; and it meets the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia. That does not, of course, mean that absolutely no discussion should ensue about the topic, but as far as inclusion in the article, it's a slam-dunk.

My good deed for the day. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom and ElvisFan have made arguments for retaining the existing language that are quite different and both very convincing. I'm convinced by them, and by all the sources I've looked at it. Let's leave it as it is. It is clear that there will be no consensus in favor of a change for the foreseeable future, if ever, so further exhausting our time and energy on this is clearly pointless. We can move on. DocKino (talk) 05:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

In two consecutive months in 1953, the Burnette brothers each had a son. Johnny named his son

Rocky, while Dorsey named his newborn son Billy - both boys named after professional'boxers. The proud fathers dedicated a week of their performances, and then a whole month, to their new babies. "This is a Rocky 'n' Billy song," they'd say,and they'd romp into "Tear It Up" or something else. Eventually they wrote a song called "Rocky 'n'Boogie." Inevitably, someone in the crowd would forget the name of the song and call out, "Play that Rockabilly song." To all of us who were there at the beginning, that's where Rockabilly really got its name. The Burnettes didn't record their song until after Elvis smashed his way into the history books, but they birthed the name for this new and vibrant world-changing music. Rockabill Legends page 264 ~ (not many page #s!). According to wikipedia Billy was born May 8, 1953. "Two consecutive months" would be April/May or May/June. This isn't an exact date, but it looks like locals in Memphis knew the word "Rockabilly" a full year before July 1954. Steve Pastor (talk) 00:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

"Terry Gordan of RCS isn' the only one who thinks Haley did rocabilly before Elvis. Writing of Haley, "during the early 1950s, through a seuccession of experiments, to produce what he call cowboy-jive, whcih became hillbilly boogie and later rockabilly." p 193 "Let the Good Times Roll -the Story of Louis Jordan and his music. John Chilton. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:55, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

After an early rendition of "Blue Moon of Kentucky", Sun Records owner Sam Phillips exclaimed, "BOY, that's fine, that's fine. That's a POP song now!." Presley responded, "That sounds like Carl Perkins!" I posted this information on this talk page previously, before leaving the article. I asked that people check the reference. I'm not aware of anyone responding. But, Perkins was in Jackson, not Memphis. And although Jackson is in Tennessee, how did Elvis know what Perkins sounded like since at that time when Carl had never had any records released? Looks like Jackson would be too far for even his radio performances to reach Memphis. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:36, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh Steve, this citation doesn't even MENTION rockabilly. DocKino (talk) 09:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional sources that speak volumes, Steve. I do not think that there is a consensus here. The discussion shows that only DocKino and ElvisFan1981 think that Elvis was one of the originators of rockabilly, as their sources claim. Other sources say otherwise. Therefore, StevePastor, VolunteerMarek and Onefortyone support the view that Elvis should not be called one of the originators of rockabilly. Onefortyone (talk) 21:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Um, actually 141, your best sources completely supported the viewpoint that Elvis should be called one of the originators of rockabilly. And VolunteerMarek's concerns, which pertained to sourcing, have been addressed in the most explicit fashion possible (i.e., Charlton: Presley was "rockabilly's originator"). And you're very conveniently forgetting that Tom Reddy--no buddy of mine--observed that the whole argument against that point was an exercise in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. So...tallying up...that's a very clear consensus in favor of retaining the current language. DocKino (talk) 09:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, DocKino, Craig Morrison’s Go Cat Go! Rockabilly Music and its Makers (1996) says, p.35, that Bill Haley’s Rock the Joint of 1952 is "bona fide rockabilly, perhaps even the birth of the style." There is still no clear consensus view that Elvis should be called one of the originators of rockabilly. Steve Pastor, Onefortyone and VolunteerMarek do not support this view, which is wrong according to the new sources I have cited below. Onefortyone (talk) 23:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Remember "Crazy, Man Crazy" and how it was the first rockabilly song to be in the top 20 a year before Elvis first recorded with Bill and Scotty? Bill Haley stated the following regarding Elvis speaking to him back stage in Oklahoma City in 1954/1955. "He was only a nineteen year old kid then and had a lot of spunk. His eargerness to learn reminded me of myself back when I was his age. He told me his favorite song was "Crazy, Man Crazy", and after he heard it he knew he wanted to be a singer too." from "Sound and Glory" page 103. So, We don't have to speculate about if Elvis heard the song. Steve Pastor (talk) 01:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh Steve, this citation doesn't even MENTION rockabilly. DocKino (talk) 09:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Commenting on Perkins' playing, Sam Phillips has been quoted as saying that, "I knew that Carl could rock and in fact he told me right from the start that he had been playing that music before Elvis came out on record." Steve Pastor (talk) 01:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh Steve, this citation doesn't even MENTION rockabilly. DocKino (talk) 09:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh DocKino, historical evidence suggests that certain claims that Elvis originated rockabilly at Sun seem to be wrong. According to this Billboard article, Charlie Feathers may have invented rockabilly in 1949. According to Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen and Dan Sokolovic’s well-researched new study, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), Charlie Feathers

• "maintained that he was already playing rockabilly in the Sun Studio long before Elvis" and Hardrock Gunter "had already pushed country music toward rockabilly with an original song for the indie Bama label, Birmingham Bounce (1950) and his Decca recording of the Dominoes' Sixty Minute Man (1951). Elvis may have seen Gunter perform in Memphis and heard his recordings. Harmonica Frank was another white man who claimed to have invented rock and roll 'before I ever heard of Elvis Presley.' " (p.64)
• "Another wrinkle in the story of Elvis's sudden invention as a rockabilly singer comes in the person of Johnny Burnette. Like Elvis, Johnny and his brother, Dorsey, worked at Crown Electric as delivery drivers and Johnny sang in the Starlite Wranglers before forming the Rock and Roll Trio with with Dorsey and Paul Burlison in 1951. The net of musical association around Elvis seems too thickly woven for Elvis to have been 'green as a gourd.' Perhaps Elvis, in addition to his many other musical interests, was already a junior player in the developing rockabilly sound with other Memphis musicians well before that fateful July night in the Sun Studio." (p.66)

Steve Pastor has already shown that Elvis was well aware of the fact that he didn't invent the new sound. Therefore, Elvis should not be called an originator of rockabilly in the Wikipedia article. Onefortyone (talk) 22:37, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Awww, 141, you just said an untruth (surprise!) when you said that "Steve Pastor has already shown that Elvis was well aware of the fact that he didn't invent the new sound". Neither Steve nor anyone else in this thread has established anything about what "Elvis was well aware of."

But, HEY!! THANKS 141, for giving us yet another source that supports the already very, very, very well supported description of Presley as one of the originators of rockabilly: "Perhaps Elvis, in addition to his many other musical interests, was already a junior player in the developing rockabilly sound with other Memphis musicians well before that fateful July night in the Sun Studio." Well done, 141, well DONE. DocKino (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Steve has shown many sources that have also contradicted themselves and stated earlier or later in their wording that Elvis can be considered an originator of rockabilly. I have pointed some of these out at the point of inclusion, above. Most of his sources haven't even mentioned rockabilly, as pointed out by DocKino above. I'd also like to have the exact minute that the DVD Elvis '56 has the audio of Elvis saying "That sounds like Carl Perkins" so that I can check it out for myself. It's not strong enough to just say it's there without an exact time stamp for people to verify it themselves. A time stamp is the equivalent of a page number in this case and is definitely necessary. It would be great for me to hear because it will be something new that I have never heard before. I have the audio of the recording on CD, but it cuts out before Elvis says "That sounds like Carl Perkins". Even the source provided by 141 above says the following...

"Perhaps Elvis, in addition to his many other musical interests, was already a junior player in the developing rockabilly sound with other Memphis musicians well before that fateful July night in the Sun Studio".

To me, as I read that, it suggests that Elvis can be considered someone of interest in the progression of rockabilly long before July 1954. However, as it uses the word "Perhaps', there is no real way of knowing and therefore it isn't really a viable source for this article on either side of the argument. Although, if it is good enough for the argument against it, then it can definitely be considered good enough for the argument for it. You can't have it one rule for one and one rule for the other. Some other, more experienced editors know more about how viable a source is than I do, so I will let them decide for definite. As for the Charlie Feathers suggestion, there is absolutely no evidence to support that other than his own telling of the story. It even states that in the source provided. "Pushing country music towards rockabilly" and actually creating rockabilly are two completely different things. There were plenty of people around the world working towards the invention of radio and/or television, but only one person can be considered the definite creator of these things. The majority of the sources, provided by Steve and others, have stated somewhere that Elvis, Scotty and Bill, in July 1954, created what would become known as rockabilly. Again, I would suggest we alter the word "originator" if that is such a problem, but at this time I don't really see enough evidence to back its alteration. To be fair, most of the sources provided by others would be better suited to the articles on Rockabilly, Carl Perkins, etc., rather than here on the Elvis Presley article. In my view, after having taken into account all the provided sources, I still think that Elvis being considered an originator of rockabilly is a fair statement. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 11:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that important people such as Carl Perkins and Charlie Feathers have stated that Elvis was not the originator of rockabilly. Other sources have clearly shown that the sound was there before Elvis appeared on the scene. Onefortyone (talk) 19:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

So, Elvis said, during his earliest sessions with Scotty and Bill, "That sounds like Carl Perkins". But, how did he know what Carl sounded like? It didn't quite fit. Somehow I found out about an article in "The Atlantic" about Carl Perkins from December 1970, and got a reprint. Carl is quoted. "Elvis, he came from the same environment as me, though not as poor, and he told me later that he had come up to Jackson and seen us one night at El Rancho. His manager then, Bob Neal, a big DJ at WMPS in Memphis, had seen us too." It must have been before that first recording session (otherwise how would he have known what Carl sounded like?). Elvis, Carl, and eventually Phillips knew that their music was similar. But Carl had already been doing it for years, just as Bill Haley had. And probably a bunch of other folks, but they never got recorded or got into the books.

Knowing that Elvis heard Carl and Haley (and probably others, as he had also heard r&b groups) before, and he recognized that what he was doing "sounded like Carl Perkins" means to me that, when looked at closely, I can't accept Elvis as an "orginator".

This, I think is similar to Benny Goodman and swing. He didn't originate swing, others had been playing it for years, but he helped make it very popular and was call the King of Swing. Now hoping that we can talk about alternative wordingsSteve Pastor (talk) 20:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Monday,July 5 1954 The three of them went to the Sun Studio because Sam Phillips wanted to hear them on tape. Recently developed,magnetic recording tape made it possible for them to do one take of a song,listen to it,then make adjustment for the next take. Nothing special happened at that session until Presley began fooling around and playing an obsure 1946 blues song,'That's All Right',during a break. Elvis started singing Arthur 'Big Boy' Crudup's blues song,'That's All Right',with a fast rhythm and in a more casual style than most blues songs,and Moore and Black jumped in. Phillips voice boomed out from the control booth,'What are you doing?" None of them really knew. How could they? How could they know that they had stumbled onto a new sound for a new generation? Sam recognized it right away. He was amazed that the boy even knew Arthur 'Big Boy' Crudup - nothing in any of the songs he had tried so far gave any indication that he was drawt to this kind of music at all. But this was the sort of music that Sam had long ago who heartedly embraced...And the way the boy performed it,it came across with a freshness and exuberance,it came across with the kind of clear eyed,unabashed originality that Sam sought in all the music that he recorded,it was 'different',it was itself. Phillips was excited about the trio's sound and recognized its potential. He asked them to refine their unique interpretation of 'That's All Right',and then he re recorded it. At the time he cut his first record for Sam,there was no word that could adequately describe his style of music. When the press attempted to explain his sound,they usually made a mess of it,often confusing their readers with inappropriate or comical comparisions to other types of music. Elvis was referred to at various times as a 'hillbilly singer','a young rural rhythm talent',a 'white man...singing Negro rhythms with a boppish approach to hillbilly music'. Not long after Elvis' success,other rockabilly and country-western singers showed up on the doorstep of Sun Studios,hoping that Phillips could work the same magic with them as he had with Elvis,Phillips eventually recorded Johnny Cash,Jerry Lee Lewis,Carl Perkins,Roy Orbison,Charlie Feathers,Billy Lee Riley,Dickie Lee and other artists. July 1954 not long after the 17th Sam Phillips asks WMPS Memphis disc jockey Bob Neal to book Elvis on his Country Music Jamboree at the Overton Shell that featured Slin Whitman and Billy Walker as the headliners. It would be their first professional public performance as a band. Source: Elvis Presley News:Elvis Aaron Presley 1953-1955 The Hillibilly Cat/EPE What I don't quite undertand Steve in the above about Bob Neal,is that Elvis had already done his first recording,before he had even meet Bob Neal,let alone become his Manager.--Jaye9 (talk) 01:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't interpret Carl's recollection as meaning that Neal had influenced how Elvis sang that first song. Carl was just sayin' that Neal knew what Carl was doing just like Elvis did. And, yeah, people showed up at Sun, just like Carl, because they had already sounded like Elvis, before Elvis was recorded and his record was played on the radio. And, if you think about, Bill and Scotty had no problems providing the accompaniment on the song(s) on that first record. So, doesn't it make sense that they had playing like that already? We could talk about slapped bass and how it had been part of CW playing for a long time, but that's a different topic? Steve Pastor (talk) 02:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Steve,I thank you for your explanation. But to say people like Carl and others already sounded like Elvis did before Elvis was recorded and his record was played on the radio,I'd think I'd have to agree to disagree with you on that one. But I will acknowlege a couple of things with you though. I remember reading in Scotty Moore's book he mentions admiring the guitarist out of Bill Haley's band the Coments,who happened to be a Jazz player I believe, and also stating that he thought the Rolling Stones were the best Rock'n'Roll band in the 60's. But in saying all that, many bands and musicians including Elvis and the Blue Moon Boys and Bill Haley and The Comets,Carl Perkins and many others put their cards on the table. As Elvis had said in an interview "I happened to come along when there was no trend,I was very lucky.--Jaye9 (talk) 07:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

That Elvis is an originator of rockabilly is a popular myth. Those authors who celebrate him as the first megastar of rock 'n' roll follow this myth. Others who are aware that the sound was there before Elvis recorded his first records at Sun presume to question this myth. As two contradicting opinions are to be found in different sources, both opinions must be mentioned in the Elvis article according to Wikipedia policies. Alternatively, Elvis should not be called an originator of rockabilly. Why not just say, "Presley was one of the greatest performers and popularizers of rockabilly" ? Onefortyone (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Why not? Because multiple music historians describe Presley as an (or even the) originator of rockabilly, and no music historian quoted so far supports your novel claim that this well-founded description is merely a "popular myth". That's why not. Tom Reedy noted a month ago that your pursuit of this argument is an apparent "exercise in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT." Nothing has changed. DocKino (talk) 03:26, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

It is a fact that Carl Perkins, who has also been called one of the originators of rockabilly by some critics, says that he and Elvis didn't create rockabilly. Some experts on rockabilly support this view, others (chiefly Elvis fans) promote the opinion that Elvis, the megastar of rockabilly, must have created the sound. For instance, in his book, The Encyclopedia of Rock Obituaries (1999), Nick Talevski writes, "Elvis was not the originator of rock'n'roll, nor the first to release a rock'n'roll record, but he was its first real star..." In her book, Nadine: The Story of an American Orchestra Conductor (2001), Paulina Dennis confirms this opinion: "Elvis was not the first: Bill Haley and Jerry Lee Lewis were two of many white musicians who were bringing this rhythm and blues influence into a more-or-less pop music framework along with such black singers like Chuck Berry and the Platters... But it was Elvis's dynamic personal style and extreme popularity that actually made Rock 'n Roll the force that would change the style and direction of American popular music." Onefortyone (talk) 19:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Another key figure deeply involved in creating the sound before Elvis appeared on the scene is Doc Pomus. In his study on Rock 'n' Roll Jews (2001), Michael Billig writes that Rolling Stone was not exaggerating when it declared in its obituary that "every songwriter in Rock & Roll owes something to Doc Pomus" for Doc "helped invent Rock & Roll". In his Riding on a Blue Note: Jazz and American Pop (1981), Gary Giddins says, "As a songwriter, Pomus names Leiber and Stoller and Blackwell as influences: 'Jerry and Mike in terms of structure, and Otis in the sense of originality and spontaneity.' I asked him about the assumption, prevalent in Presley criticism, that Elvis created head arrangements on his best records, that he was in effect the producer. 'This is absolutely untrue. Elvis did not create those sounds, and I can tell you that he managed to get his name on songs he had nothing to do with writing. One thing I can assure you is that his singing was significantly influenced by Otis.' " Onefortyone (talk) 01:41, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Everything you've added recently is very interesting, 141, but what has any of it got to do with rockabilly? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 01:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

It's got a lot to do with rockabilly, as rockabilly is one of the earliest styles of rock'n'roll. Onefortyone (talk) 01:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Yet none of these sources actually claim that Elvis was not an originator of rockabilly. Rockabilly was a fore-runner to rock and roll, and therefore anyone considered rock and roll (Haley, Lewis etc.) are only called such after the birth of rockabilly. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 02:02, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Rockabilly was not a fore-runner to rock 'n' roll. In his Supremely American: Popular Song in the 20th Century (2005), Nicholas E. Tawa says that the first white offerings of rock 'n' roll were given the designation "rockabilly". Talevski clearly writes, "Elvis was not the originator of rock'n'roll, nor the first to release a rock'n'roll record, but he was its first real star..." Scotty Moore gave a definition of "rockabilly" to Peter Guralnick that contradicts your opinion, ElvisFan, as he confirms that the sound was there before Elvis recorded his first records: "It had been there for quite a while, really. Carl Perkins was doing basically the same sort of thing up around Jackson, and I know for a fact Jerry Lee Lewis had been playing that kind of music ever since he was ten years old. You see, from the honky-tonks you got such a mixture of all different types of music and I think what happened is that when Elvis busted through it enabled all these other groups that had been going along more or less the same avenue — I'm sure there were hundreds of them — to tighten up and focus on what was going to be popular. If they had a steel guitar they dropped it. The weepers and slow country ballads pretty much went out of their repertoire. And what you had left was country-orientated boogie music." See Peter Guralnick, Lost Highway: Journeys & Arrivals of American Musicians (1989), p.104. Onefortyone (talk) 02:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

But none of that changes the fact that Elvis is considered one of the originators of rockabilly. As has been said before, the article doesn't claim that Elvis invented rockabilly, or that he even invented anything. However, there is no doubt that what he, Scotty and Bill did is considered the true birth of rockabilly by many, many sources, including those provided in the argument against him being an originator. Before Elvis did what he did there was no name for it, the term rockabilly did not really exist, regardless of a little story about two little boys. Sure, it may have sounded like something that had come before, it may have been a sound that other people had been working towards before, but what doesn't sound like something that came before? It doesn't mean rockabilly wasn't a new genre, and it certainly doesn't mean Elvis cannot be considered one of the originators. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 02:51, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Moore clearly says that the sound "had been there for quite a while, really. ... I know for a fact Jerry Lee Lewis had been playing that kind of music ever since he was ten years old." There are similar statements by Carl Perkins. This shows that Elvis cannot be one of the originators of rockabilly, though several authors may believe in the myth that Elvis, the megastar of rockabilly, must have created the sound. Onefortyone (talk) 03:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, if it is in fact rockabilly he's talking about, but it doesn't change the fact that the music did not have the name "rockabilly" before Elvis came along. There are still far more sources that state he is ONE OF the originators, and many that state he IS THE originator, of rockabilly, and therefore I see no strong enough reason to change it. The article doesn't claim he invented it, it claims he was one of the originators, backed up by many sources. We'll have to agree to disagree until further evidence can be discovered. And for the record, the article doesn't claim that Elvis created the sound. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 03:12, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

There are sources claiming that Elvis was one of the originators of rockabilly, and there are sources contradicting this opinion. According to Wikipedia policies, both views must be mentioned in the article. You cannot cite just one view, as in the current version of the Wikipedia article. Onefortyone (talk) 03:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Earlier this was quoted from “Rockabilly: The Twang Heard 'Round the World: The Illustrated History” "Elvis invented rockabilly. He also invented Rockabilly Style.” This statement was written by Sigrid Arnott. Other publications by Arnott are: “Medieval fasting women : dynamics of gender and power”, and “KnitKnacks: Much Ado About Knitting.” We can perhaps discount this one as the opinion of a respected music historian, I’d say. BTW, if you haven't been looking at the talk pages ElvisFan identified the seeming mention of Carl Perkins as coming from another, later recording session. But I see that 141 pointed out the Scotty Moore acknowledged that Perkins and others were doing rockabilly style before he, Bill Black, and Elvis recorded. Steve Pastor (talk) 19:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

As mentioned above, Carl Perkins has also clearly stated, "[Sam] Phillips, Elvis, and I didn't create rockabilly." Onefortyone (talk) 21:16, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

"There's a book I've been looking into purchasing today, mainly because it includes information about Elvis, but it's primarily about the history of Rockabilly. It's from last year, so I'm assuming fairly up to date with its research, and is written by Greil Marcus with input from Michael Dregni, Peter Guralnick, Luc Sante, Robert Gordon, Sonny Burgess. Each of these names are very well known within the Elvis community, and all of them are considered very knowledgeable when it comes to his life and career. Several of them, if not all, are considered highly credible music historians in their own right outside of Elvis. Here's some of what the book had to say regarding Elvis and Rockabilly." Greil Marcus appears to have no credentials as musician. Does anyone have any information to the contrary? Steve Pastor (talk) 17:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

This publication is a popular fan book repeating the myth that Elvis created rockabilly, and, judged by its contents, a real disappointment. However, there are other publications: Glenn Altschuler writes,

Elvis was something new under the Sun. Although he did not invent "rockabilly", he introduced it to tens of thousands of teenagers. With loose rhythms, no saxophone or chorus, rockabilly was a "personal, confiding, confessing" sound, as Charlie Gillett has defined it, with instrumentalists responding "more violently to inflections in the singer's voice, shifting into double-time for a few bars to blend with a sudden acceleration in the vocalist's tempo."

See Glenn C. Altschuler, All Shook Up: How Rock 'n' Roll Changed America (2003), p.30. According to Charles Brown,

people are led to believe that Elvis Presley is the only important rocker who had country roots. Of course, Elvis is important in the history of rock and roll, but he was not the first rockabilly musician by any means. He was the first southern rockabilly musician but not the first country rockabilly star; Bill Haley was.

See Charles T. Brown, Music U.S.A.: America's Country & Western Tradition (1986), p.80. See also the same author's The Art of Rock and Roll (1983, 3rd ed. 1992), including a chapter on "Elvis Presley and Memphis Rockabilly" and defining, p.191, rockabilly as "the first concrete combination of country music with rock and roll." Jim Cullen, a Harvard professor whose reviews have appeared in Rolling Stone, says,

Contrary to popular myth, however, Presley did not invent rock & roll, and he was only one of a number of its significant practitioners. Western swing bandleader Bill Haley's "Rock Around the Clock" (1954) had wide currency before Presley's records did, and Jerry Lee Lewis may have had more raw performing talent. And there were many exceptionally gifted African Americans who were as deserving of fame and stature as Presley but who were denied it because of their race.

See Jim Cullen, The Art of Democracy: A Concise History of Popular Culture in the United States (2002), p.265. According to Bo Diddley,

Elvis was not the first. I was the first son of a gun out here. Me and Chuck Berry. And I’m very sick of the lie. You know, we are over that black and white crap, and that was all the reason why Elvis got the appreciation that he did. I'm the dude that he copied after. ... Elvis did not invent rock and roll. He didn't start rock and roll. He came two and a half years after me. See, and Little Richard said that he invented rock and roll. Richard is three years behind me.

Cited in Neil Strauss, Everyone Loves You When You’re Dead (2011). Some further sources: "Elvis did not invent rock and roll. He was not the first to bring black and white musical styles together." See Adam Woog, A History of Rock and Roll (1999), p.23. "Elvis did not invent rock music all by himself but built on artists who came before him." See Jeffrey L. Harrison and Jules Theeuwes, Law and Economics (2008), p.142. According to Michael Bertrand,

Phillips found Elvis. And although it is true that Elvis Presley did not invent rock 'n' roll, his success as a white country artist performing rhythm and blues credibly nevertheless helped the music attain national and international acclaim. In bringing black music that he loved to a larger white audience, Presley served as an important agent of change within the segregated society in which he lived.

See Michael T. Bertrand, "Rock 'n' Roll." In Robert E. Weir, ed., Class in America: Q-Z (2007), p.711. Frank Magill writes,

Contrary to the popular myth, Presley did not invent rock and roll, a term that had begun circulating in the black community as early as the late 1940's. Chuck Berry possessed far greater song-writing gifts and a penchant for integrating racial styles; Jerry Lee Lewis may have had more raw performing talent.

See Frank N. Magill, Chronology of Twentieth-Century History: Arts and Culture (1998), p.1202.Onefortyone (talk) 22:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Read the entry on Greil Marcus; his credentials are about as valid as they come, and most of the other contributors range from reputable to exceedingly reputable. But Marcus wrote the entry on Buddy Holly, not the material being cited here. The foreword by '50s rockabilly artist Sonny Burgess says, "I never hear the term 'rockabilly' back then. Nobody did. Everybody said, 'Where'd that come from?' I don't know. We never really pinned it down, where that term came from. When people asked what music we played, we were rock 'n' rollers." These sentiments have been echoed by nearly everyone now considered in retrospect to have been a part of the rockabilly scene. The stuff about how rockabilly's "arrival can be pinpointed" appears to be by editor Michael Dregni, whose prior music-related credits are primarily books about Django Reinhardt. The question is, what does Dregni mean by "arrival?" If he's talking about the invention of a musical genre, he's off the mark according to key people who were there. However, if he's talking about placing that genre on the map of public consciousness, and elevating it from a footnote to a chapter in the book on popular music history, he's pretty much on the money. Pstoller (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

There is clearly ample historical evidence and critical opinion (some of which is cited above) in support of rockabilly's existence prior to 1954 to require that any statement that Elvis Presley was an "originator" of rockabilly be balanced with a counter statement. Either that, or the claim should be excised altogether and replaced with something less controversial.

It must be remembered that while everyone has an equal right to an opinion, that does not mean that all opinions are equal. To wit: Katherine Charlton's claim that Presley was "rockabilly's originator" is an opinion unsupported (if not flatly contradicted) by fact. Charlton is a retired community college music history professor with an academic background in classical music. However much postgraduate study she's done since she earned her MA in music history from CSU Fullerton (which did not and does not have a rock/pop music program), it is ludicrous to claim that she is a more reliable authority on rockabilly than Carl Perkins or Scotty Moore. If Perkins and Moore state that they, Presley, and Sam Phillips did not invent rockabilly, then that carries substantially more weight than anything Charlton writes to the contrary—even if McGraw-Hill publishes it in a textbook. If Charlton can substantiate her claim, that's one thing. However, to simply accept the word of an academic over those of the subjects of her studies is to have the tail wag the dog, and it makes a mockery of Wikipedia's intent when it comes to the all-important doctrine of verifiability. (Likewise, Sigrid Arnott's casual assertion that "Elvis invented rockabilly" should not be taken out of context: it was merely a setup for her slightly less dubious assertion that "he also invented Rockabilly style"—meaning style of dress rather than music, to which her credentials as a "textile artist, historian, and author" apply.)

Presley, Perkins, et al. developed, mastered, and greatly popularized a music that they did not originate. It is hardly a slight against any of them to say so. Presley may be the single most important entertainer in the history of American (and perhaps even global) popular music in terms of his impact on other musicians and the general public alike. His legacy is not improved by claiming for him things that he did not do. Pstoller (talk) 22:37, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Milt Gabler, "true pioneer of the record busines" begining in the 1920s, and producer of "Rock Around the Clock." "Bill had had "Crazy Man, Crazy" on Essex in Philadephia. Bill was doing like rockabilly." from Audio 1988 pages 67-78.

I've got one or two more items, but I think it's time to work on alternative wording. There are now at least three editors who have stated that they are in favor of this. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"With this new lineup, the early, raw rockabilly sound of the Saddlemen-Comets came to an end." "Sound and Glory..." page 109 Steve Pastor (talk) 00:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

New proposal

In order to avoid disagreements similar to the ones above, i would like to see Dockino (and others) to make a proposal. I have collected some references so we can collaborate for consensus. Whats the best to word (a) Elvis relationships with youngeer girls and/or (b) attempts to cover this up, using the following sources? (feel free to add more sources);

• Elvis Presley, the original pop King, escaped a similar fate when his manager, Colonel Tom Parker, kept the future Priscilla Presley's age under wraps. - Christian Science Monitor,
• [3] elvis.com,
• [4] elvispresleymusic.com,
• [5] Priscilla Presley, Elvis Presley's Wife, Susan Doll,
• though there was a surprising lack of uproar over the age difference, especially in light of the public excoriation that fellow Sun Records alumni Jerry Lee Lewis received for marrying his teenage cousin. yahoo movies,
• Baby, Let's Play House pages 182 and 231,
• "Jackie Rowland, 14... 14 was his magical age...Frances Forbes...when I was 14, he noticed me.. Gloria Mowel and Heidi Heissen, both also at that 'magical' age" Daily Mail,
• Elvis Presley: a biography, Kathleen Tracy
• scientific american Elvis described as "Hebephilic"

Pass a Method talk 10:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

What about this version:

As Priscilla lived with Elvis at Graceland before she was of the age of consent, it is no wonder that the Colonel, Wallis, and Presley endeavored to hide this fact because they feared a public scandal.

This version avoids the expression, "live-in Lolita". Onefortyone (talk) 00:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Rejected. You can hardly have forgotten, so you are clearly willfully ignoring the extensive discussion above of these matters. Once again, the entire argument, in those sources which make it, that the "Colonel, Wallis, and Presley endeavored to hide" anything rests on the highly contentious, hotly disputed, minority viewpoint that Priscilla lived at Graceland when she was 16. In addition, for all the claims about Parker in this regard, we still have yet to encounter one specific, attributed anecdote of him actually working to hide something relevant. As for Wallis, not one single source quoted so far (no, not even Doll) claims that he "endeavored to hide" anything. All in all, this has every sign of being a proposal made in bad faith. DocKino (talk) 03:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree with DocKino. Having read through much of the material above, I think such a contentious claim requires very high quality sourcing and attributed anecdotes. Everything above (at least from handful of sources which I would consider reliable) seems to repeat a popular myth. As WP:BLP applies here, the standards are even tighter. --Laser brain (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but there are a lot of reliable sources supporting my proposal. For instance, in her book, The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley (2003), Alanna Nash writes that Parker "was furious at such a Lolita-like setup. ... Not so long before, ... the piano-pounding Jerry Lee Lewis had ruined his career by marrying his underage cousin. This situation wasn't nearly as dangerous, but if discovered, it would still be a scandal ..." (p.205-206). Susan Doll says, "If the press had uncovered this information, the scandal would have destroyed the mainstream image that the Colonel, Wallis, and Elvis had so carefully constructed." See Susan Doll, PhD, Elvis for Dummies (2009), Chapter 7. What about this shorter version: "As Priscilla lived with Elvis at Graceland before she was of the age of consent, it is no wonder that the Colonel endeavored to hide this fact because he feared a public scandal." Onefortyone (talk) 21:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be irresponsible of us to report that the Colonel endeavored to hide anything, unless someone witnessed or had intimate knowledge of such acts and that knowledge is documented in reliable sources. In other words, how do Nash and Doll know this? A lot of authors repeat things irresponsibly without doing appropriate research. --Laser brain (talk) 22:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Nash has written a book on the Colonel and therefore interviewed many close friends and acquaintances of Parker, among them the Memphis Mafia members. Onefortyone (talk) 22:14, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

If Nash demonstrates first-person knowledge (primary research) of the Colonel endeavoring to cover it up, I would support your wording. --Laser brain (talk) 22:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see. Nash has been mentioned often here, but we've never seen evidence that she offers any first-person accounts of the Colonel endeavoring to cover up the situation with Priscilla. Even if we do see that, the wording would have to be adjusted: (1) it would need to acknowledge that according to leading biographers, Priscilla did not live at Graceland before, or more than a few weeks before, the age of consent, and (b) the unencyclopedic phrase "it is no wonder" would need to be discarded. But, yes, let's find out exactly what Nash has, with dates and everything. DocKino (talk) 12:46, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi DocKino

On 12 January 2012 ( 05:19) you wrote : "Because nothing you've just quoted in any way supports the claim that "Colonel Tom Parker made sure that Priscilla's age did not get out to the media during that time period."

Apparently you are right. Look at this article on Feb 28, 1960

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=f9QpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KgUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4758,4649258&dq=elvis+presley+priscilla&hl=en

--Roujan (talk) 10:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi DocKino

Look this page. The second link titled : <Elvis Presley Due To Fly Back>. Just below there are other links which proves that Colonel Tom Parker has never hidden the age of Priscilla. On the link <Meriden Journal March 1, 1960> we can also read :<Presley told a news conference he had been dating Priscilla for three or four months> http://www.google.com/search?q=elvis+presley+sold+million&hl=en&gl=fr&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=ar:1&sa=X&psj=1&ei=g9RZT5fGFMig8QO0rbnXDg&ved=0CBQQpwUoBQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=601#hl=en&gs_nf=1&ds=n&pq=elvis+presley+sold+million&cp=24&gs_id=22&xhr=t&q=elvis+presley++priscilla&pf=p&gl=fr&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&oq=elvis+presley++priscilla&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=91c5be38b58163d7&biw=1024&bih=601

--Roujan (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

That's not the question, as Elvis dated other teenage girls, too. We are talking here about the fact that Parker apparently tried to hide that Priscilla lived with Elvis at Graceland before she was of the age of consent. In her book, Child Bride, Suzanne Finstad writes, "That Elvis Presley was keeping a teenage lover hidden at Graceland became an unspoken scandal, an open secret in the corridors of the music industry in Nashville, common but hushed gossip in Hollywood. Columnists either ignored the rumor, pretended not to believe it, or blindly accepted Elvis's transparent ruses." Why not simply say what Nash has written: Parker "was furious at such a Lolita-like setup; ... if discovered, it would ... be a scandal." Nash seems to be the best source on Parker. This author also writes, "The immediate promise was that a chaperoned Priscilla would live on nearby Hermitage Road with Vernon and his new wife, Dee. That arrangement lasted only a matter of weeks, Priscilla slipping back and forth between the houses. With Grandma Minnie Mae Presley serving as lenient watchdog, the teenager soon took up residence at Graceland, sharing Elvis's bed..." Finstad also writes about Priscilla, "As a teenager, she was cloistered at Graceland, trailed by whispers labeling her Elvis Presley's Lolita." This clearly means that Priscilla lived in Elvis's house (and bedroom) before she was of the age of consent, but her parents were told she lived with Vernon's family on Dolan Drive. Another study, Dirk Vellenga and Mick Farren's Elvis and the Colonel, says, "Priscilla's role as live-in Lolita was certainly not publicized, and it's likely that had the fact about her living under Elvis's roof been made widely known, it would have been the scandal of the decade... " According to Wikipedia policies, secondary sources including opinions by experts should be cited in order to tone down disagreements between Wikipedians. Onefortyone (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, just as I suspected. Once again, you cannot cite a single instance of Parker endeavoring to cover something up in Nash, or anywhere else it seems. His feelings about the situation do not equate with the actions you wish to ascribe him. This is called misuse of the sources. DocKino (talk) 06:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

To my reading, there can be no doubt about what Nash has written. However, here is an alternative proposal that is closer to the source:

According to Alanna Nash, Parker "was furious" at the fact that Priscilla lived with Elvis at Graceland before she was of the age of consent; "if discovered, it would ... be a scandal."

This version avoids the expression "Lolita-like setup". Onefortyone (talk) 22:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Can you prove, without any doubt, that she lived at Graceland before the age of consent? She was literally weeks away from her 18th birthday when she moved to Memphis, and Nash uses the term "several weeks" to describe how long she lived with Vernon and Dee before moving in with Elvis. Does any of that prove she lived at Graceland before her 18th birthday? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 02:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

What makes you so sure that Priscilla was literally weeks away from her 18th birthday when she moved to Memphis? Parker's official claims? However, lots of sources say otherwise. According to Fred L. Worth and Steve D. Tamerius, Elvis: His Life from A to Z (1992), p.16, "Priscilla moved into Graceland in October of 1962". Publications International, Private Life of Elvis (2005), summarizes, p.70: "In October 1962, while he was in Hollywood filming Fun in Acapulco, Elvis played host to Priscilla and her dad, and won over the senior Beaulieu with his charm and hospitality. After a few days, father and daughter flew to Memphis, where Captain Beaulieu and Vernon Presley enrolled Priscilla in the all-girl Immaculate Conception Cathedral High School and moved her into the home that Vernon shared with his second wife, Dee." Albert Goldman, Elvis, writes, p.355, "In October, after Elvis left for Hollywood to start work on Kid Galahad, Vernon Presley enrolled Priscilla at Immaculate Conception Cathedral High School." Other sources say that she lived earlier with Elvis. In his book, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p.58, Larry Geller claims that Priscilla moved to Memphis in May 1962. Robert Matthew-Walker, Heartbreak Hotel: The Life and Music of Elvis Presley (1995), states, p.57, that "Priscilla's stay with Vernon and Dee became permanent in January 1962." According to Scotty Moore, Priscilla "had been living at Graceland since 1961 and the rising tide of negative publicity made the relationship a potential threat to his career." Priscilla herself talks about previous labels given to her, such as "constant companion," "teen heartthrob," "live-in Lolita," "lover". Onefortyone (talk) 03:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Have you learnt nothing from our recent discussion about the whole "That sounds like Carl Perkins" incident? It's far too easy for a false line to be repeated over and over and over again by lazy, irresponsible journalists and authors who haven't properly researched their information. This is wikipedia, and this subject is about a living person, a living person who is one of the people who tells the story that is the "official" version. We have a responsibility to get this as accurate as possible so that we don't suggest any falsities that could lead to legal action against wikipedia. If in doubt, leave it out. As I wasn't there I can never be 100% positive of anything, 141. However, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and as most of the sources that I completely trust (several of those you use above not included) follow the "official" version, I have no option but to believe the "official story", as written by Priscilla herself, over those provided by people who may or may not be out just to make a fast buck from their lives with Elvis and whose memories may be slightly hazy. Or authors who haven't taken the time to verify their information. I read as much as I can, I hear as much as I can, I watch as much as I can, and then I put it all together and decide on what I think is most likely to have happened based on the information and the sources.

Larry Geller? Really? He didn't even know Elvis until 1964. Priscilla visited Elvis in the USA in the summer of 1962, can you be 100% sure that Geller isn't confused and mixing up his information and dates? And that raises another problem. Some of your sources claim she moved there in 1961, some claim January 1962, some claim May 1962, some claim Autumn 1962. And according to the source you want to use to prove that Parker was furious about Priscilla living at Graceland because she was underage, it was March 1963 that she moved to Memphis. Therefore, you have a source that backs one of your "theories", yet it disputes your other one and follows the "official" storyline only 1 page beforehand. Even your own sources can't agree on an exact date or year! Isn't it possible that they've just copied one false source themselves, like what happened with the Perkins quote, leading to a completely false rumour being repeated over and over and over again? Which in turn leads to people, such as yourself, assuming there's some kind of cover-up going on.

I'm not saying that the "official" version is the absolute truth, but at the moment there is not enough concrete evidence to suggest it's false. Every source that supports the "official" version gets every single piece of their information right regarding the matter, yet very few of the sources citing the alternative story can even agree on the dates. That sets alarm bells ringing in my head immediately. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 09:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Suzanne Finstad has demonstrated that, in several instances, Priscilla didn’t say the truth in her book, Elvis and Me. Furthermore, your claim that Priscilla visited Elvis in the USA for the first time in the summer of 1962 is wrong. According to eyewitness Alan Fortas, Elvis "had an image to maintain. Just how that image differed with each person's perception came to full light that Christmas, the December he came back to Memphis before he got his release on 'Wild in the Country' [i.e. December 1960]. That was the Christmas Elvis worked a miracle. Using Dee and Vernon as a shield, Elvis persuaded Priscilla's step-father, Captain Joseph Beaulieu, to let Priscilla come to Graceland for Christmas. She would fly from Frankfort, West Germany, to New York, where Vernon and Dee would meet her, and escort her back to Memphis. They, of course, would also serve as chaperones during her visit. Priscilla stayed at Graceland about two weeks, returning to Germany early in January [1961], just before Elvis went back to finish 'Wild in the Country.' We eventually ended up going to Las Vegas..." See Alan Fortas, Elvis: from Memphis to Hollywood (1992), p.137. So it is an undeniable fact that Priscilla spent two weeks at Graceland in December 1960 and January 1961. There can also be no doubt that she visited Elvis several times after that date. Finstad has shown that there is even unclarity concerning the "deciding factor" in her parents' decision to permit her move to Memphis. As so many sources differ about the exact date of Priscilla’s move to Graceland, these contradictions must be mentioned in the Wikipedia article. Even if we accept "March 1963" as the correct date, she can still be called a live-in Lolita. According to Pamela Clarke Keogh, she arrived with her father in Memphis in March 1963. "But as might be expected, she stayed at Vernon and Dee's for about a week before moving into Grandma's room at Graceland and, shortly thereafter, Elvis' bedroom. ... To the world at large, the subterfuge worked — a seventeen-year-old girl secretly living with the most famous sex symbol in the world! As Elvis well knew and the Colonel reminded him, if the press got wind of this, it could be devastating for Elvis' career." See Pamela Clarke Keogh, Elvis Presley: The Man, the Life, the Legend (2004), p.142. Onefortyone (talk) 20:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

After wading my way through this lengthy and repetitive debate, I have to ask: Is this material—true or not, verifiable or not—really pertinent to a Wikipedia bio of Elvis Presley? There are many things that Presley may or may not have done in his private life, but unless it can be demonstrated that these things had a significant effect on his public career, I don't see how they have any pressing relevance. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Presley began having sexual relations with Pricilla Beaulieu in Germany when she was 14, and then similarly assume that she moved in with Presley when she was 16, the fact remains that there was no scandal; Presley's career was not derailed; and he and those around him seem to have made no significant creative or business decisions in response to this alleged tinderbox (beyond allegedly taking some care as to not expose it). It has virtually nothing to do with why Presley is a public figure, nor how he is generally perceived. (Contrast this with Presley's drug use, which is extremely relevant to his image and career.) The only real argument I see in favor of including this information is the allegation that Colonel Parker used "secret sex films" (not featuring Beaulieu) to blackmail Presley into signing a bad contract. However, only Earl Greenwood has put this story forward—repeated, but never substantiated, by Penthouse, Kathleen Tracy, and Liz Smith. So, the question isn't, "Is it true?" or, "Can you prove it?" but, "So what?" Besides, there's an entire separate article on Presley's personal relationships here. I question whether that article needs to exist, but as it does, putting the same material in the main article would be redundant. So, how about giving this poor, dead horse a respite? Pstoller (talk) 04:23, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Concerning the supposed blackmail, there are some few allegations of this kind. David Bret, for instance, has claimed that Parker knew that Elvis had an affair with actor Nick Adams and therefore had been able to blackmail Presley by threating to reveal this "secret information". Much of this information seems to have come from Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, who may have heard it from Vernon. However, most biographers do not deal with these matters. Therefore, these claims are not included in the article. On the other hand, I do not think that it is unimportant that so many sources differ about the exact date of Priscilla’s move to Graceland, and there can be no doubt that Elvis secretly kept Priscilla in his bedroom before she was of the age of consent. The singer's career was not derailed because this information was withheld from the public. As Pamela Clarke Keogh wrote in her book on Presley: "As Elvis well knew and the Colonel reminded him, if the press got wind of this, it could be devastating for Elvis' career." We are talking here about one or two additional sentences that would not extend the article very much. Onefortyone (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Not only can there be doubt, but there is doubt. The fact that so many sources differ means that there is no one accepted source or story. Beaulieu's age remains irrelevant to Presley's career and fame, so two sentences on the subject is two too many for a Wikipedia article. Pstoller (talk) 04:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

"and there can be no doubt that Elvis secretly kept Priscilla in his bedroom before she was of the age of consent." You've lost this proposal on more than one occasion. There is an extreme doubt, seeing that there's absolutely no proof to what you're saying. Keep your blatant slander to yourself. Also, any such claims of Presley having an "affair" with Nick Adams is entirely an allegation, there's no proof to back any of it up, hence why it won't be added to this article. Priscilla herself has stated that your proposed statements are indeed false, along with many other trustworthy sources, no one here that has a good head on their shoulders is going to agree with you on either note, and frankly, I'm sick and tired of reading your ridiculous slander. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.0.168.187 (talk) 04:56, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Suzanne Finstad has shown in her book that, in several instances, Priscilla didn’t say the truth. As this material is out in the public domain and discussed in several books on Elvis, it is part of Elvis’s history and ought to be addressed according to Wikipedia's Verifiability policy. This is also the opinion of Silverseren, Binksternet, Pass a Method and Tom Reedy. See this discussion. What counts on Wikipedia are the many reliable sources that indeed deal with the matter. There are still too many sources supporting the view that Elvis kept Priscilla as a teenage lover hidden at Graceland before she was of the age of consent and that Colonel Parker tried to hide this fact. Onefortyone (talk) 00:51, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

The key term is, reliable. Finstad is not; likewise her major source, Currie Grant, who lost the defamation suit brought by Priscilla Presley over his accounts in Finstad's book. Repeating defamatory statements in a Wikipedia entry is bad practice. Pstoller (talk) 23:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

One would hope that we would grow up sooner or later and move on!--Jaye9 (talk) 09:33, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

For me when researching anything on Elvis Pstoller,it's not about what is being said is all that important,it's more to do with who's saying that is.--Jaye9 (talk) 00:04, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

FBI Informer

Was there not a story about him wanting to inform on his fellow entertainers to the FBI. Even if the story is untrue, deserves a mention? Jokem (talk) 15:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Was there a story? You haven't provided a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I see we have a FBI files on Elvis Presley article - and this is mentioned there. Not that there seems to be much to it: he made a vague offer, and Hoover turned it down because he didn't like Presley's long hair, or the way he dressed. I think that this probably tells us more about Hoover than Presley. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Claims of still being alive

I have no doubt that he did die on August 16th 1977 - for one thing he wouldn't have wanted his public to know about the high level of drug use even though they were legal. But there was a period for 5 years or so when the idea that he'd "faked" his death to escape the pressures of fame and was still alive and would somehow "come back" probably as a "spiritual leader". There were even claims he'd faked his death due to the fight against organised crime! Whilst these claims now seem to have died their own death, they were quite significant at the time. Should some mention be made of them? At the very least it indicates that there were quite a lot of people who wouldn't just let him die, and desperately wanted to believe he was still around, or the pressure of fame giving some level of credibility to the idea that he might have been tempted to fake his death to escape it. I realise many people would find the whole thing offensive, but the claims were certainly out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.177.218.51 (talk) 03:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Those claims were indeed out there, and to a lesser extent they still are. I don't feel that the subject warrants lengthy exploration, but it does merit at least a mention, perhaps with quotes from some of the scholarly analysis that's been published on the "Elvis is alive" phenomenon.Pstoller (talk) 17:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)