Talk:The Wandering Songstress

Sources

This was unsourced in the article.

"Zhou's performance of the song earned her instant popularity, and she quickly became one of China's most well-known singers."

If anyone can reference this, it can come back. --damiens.rf 02:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved back to The Wandering Songstress per WP:OR and WP:COMMONNAME. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:37, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

---

The Wandering Song → The Wandering Songstress – There is no indication that the song is mistakenly called "The Wandering Songstress". That would be original research to prove that it is a mistake to call it that way. Even if it is also known as "The Wandering Song", we must call what it is commonly called: The Wandering Songstress. --George Ho (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

This is not original research. The name of song, 天涯歌, is mentioned in the original movie Street Angel. (To be exact, the restaurant scene) You can watch it in the Intenet Archive. Everyone can verify it. — HenryLi (Talk) 07:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Also if you read Chinese, you might be interested in the change.— HenryLi (Talk) 07:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Everyone interested in this topic, please verify the song in the movie. This is the genuine source of reference, not just those secondary source. — HenryLi (Talk) 07:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Still, per WP:Article title, "Wandering Songstress" (天涯歌女) is often used by many singers who sang this song and many other sources. I don't know how you verify 天涯歌女 as a "mistaken called" name; without source that verifies it as a mistake, I don't know how to convince you to change your mind. --George Ho (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

• I declined a move protect request at WP:RFPP as being premature. I don't know Chinese, but read Japanese a bit, and I agree with HenryLi's reading of the kanji (to use the Japanese term). However, George Ho's larger point is correct - it doesn't really matter what the correct translation is if the reliable sourcing establishes that the song is called by another title in English. Counter-intuitive as it may seem, in is indeed original research to look at the movie, draw our own conclusion, then insert it into the article. I would support making the title The Wandering Songstress, and putting both readings and translations into the article. I would refrain from calling one or the other mistaken. Instead, I'd suggest something in the lead along the lines of 天涯歌女 "Wandering Songstress", also referred to as 天涯歌 "Wandering Song". All this is subject to the caveat that I can't read the blog entry. It looks like someone is asking about the change in names? Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 17:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The Wandering Songstress → tian ya ge nu (song) – or tian ya ge nyu (song) or tian ya ge nv (song) — There is no reliable source yet about English translation. Although there was the previous discussion in its talk page, that discussion revolves WP:OR of original vs. common name in Chinese and English, not the English vs. Chinese. "dan dan you qing" is an accurate name more than any other English translation because I could not find sources that verify common English name. I don't think "The Wandering Songstress" is accurate fit at all because no other reliable sources could name it this way. --George Ho (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• more comment: I found following links:

  http://english.cri.cn/2246/2005-5-19/90@238373.htm: it says, "Singing Girl (tianya genu)"

  http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2004/8/29/features/8744075&sec=features "The Wandering Singer" — It said "Ni", not "Nu"; they must have made a typo (although sounds originally researched, I know that "Ni" is a wrong pinyin for a "girl").

  http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fx0uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vHsFAAAAIBAJ&dq=zhou%20xuan&pg=2448%2C4817107: It says: "Singer at Sky Edge"

  http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/232322.htm: It says: "The Wandering Songstress"

  http://english.eastday.com/eastday/englishedition/features/userobject1ai828450.html: "Singing Girl at the Edge of the World"

• In other words, these news sources may very and have less common names for "tian ya ge nu (song)". More to come. --George Ho (talk) 02:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
  • More sources

    "Wandering Songstress", mostly likely recent: [1] [2]

    "The Songstress of the World": http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2009/12/5/lifefocus/5225774&sec=lifefocus — it says, Nui, which is a typo of "Nu".

    (Untitled song): http://www.theage.com.au/news/film-reviews/lust-caution/2008/01/17/1200419935417.html?page=2

  • Maybe more next time. --George Ho (talk) 03:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment there's a Hong Kong film award listed, and HK has alot of English language press, what is it called there? 70.49.124.147 (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Confusion as to the precise English-language name is not a reason to use Chinese. WP:UE: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." The proposed name is simply the pinyin equivalent of "The Wandering Songstress" Kauffner (talk) 09:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
  • The policy also says: "If there are too few English-language sources to constitute an established usage," use pinyin for Chinese song. Seriously, I found three (very few to me) for "Wandering Songstress"; the rest were used by one or none. Let's see guidelines WP:Naming conventions (Chinese) and WP:naming conventions (use English) --George Ho (talk) 15:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
    • The examples given for no established usage are "German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc." This is about diacritics. Pinyin song titles don't really fit into this group. Kauffner (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Uh... Well, I guess we both got non-diacritic pinyin and diacritic pinyin mixed up. The requested title doesn't have accent marks. Like dan dan you qing and shui diao ge tou, they do not contain accent marks. Instead, they are non-diacritic romanizations. Unfortunately for you, non-diacritic pinyin (or romanized Chinese) fit into the group... even though pinyin with diacritics don't, as you said. "Shui diao ge tou" and "dan dan you qing" are non-diacritic romanized titles that omit accent marks for easier use. I hope you remember that. See WP:Romanization. --George Ho (talk) 20:27, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Sorry for the confusion. What I meant is that the German-language name of a German politician will be the same as his English-language name, except possibly for an umlaut or ß character. So using a German-language personal name is quite different than using an untranslated song title. This song is given as "The Wandering Songstress" in The Wall Journal, Shanghai Daily, and Asia One News (Singapore Press). Kauffner (talk) 21:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: To be fair (or honestly fair or fairly honest), I think WP:OR applies accuracy and precision and correction and preference of English translations on foreign titles. Having sources say "the Wandering Songstress" is one thing, but to prefer one English title and denounce the other as incorrect or too long to be preferred is an "original research" for "Tian ya ge nu". Is "The Wandering Songstress" correct or preferred by consensus? That would be a problematic question, which brings us the translations of "tian ya ge nu". This question could lead to requested moves, such as Talk:Trollhunter#Requested move, which I thought was a close call and led me to create Talk:Trollhunter#Move to Trolljegeren. No sources have analyzed or reviewed EVERY translated title for tian ya ge nu. In fact, that's WP:OR to say that "The Wandering Songstress" should be the title based on sources and consensus of every requested moves, should not be the title because other prior English translations are more desirable, or should be the title of this article because other prior English translations are less desirable. Whew! My mind's exhausted. --George Ho (talk) 01:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)