Talk:Thomas Jefferson/Archive 18

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Jefferson-Hemings controversy, once again

(note topic change) Currently the section has little historical content. It doesn't even id Sally Hemings other than to mention she was just a mixed race slave. The lede sentence and the entire first paragraph is 'Callender'. Who's writing this? The section is simply shunted with a couple of disarrayed topics with the excessive commentary hovering over every other passage. We had a long discussion about getting neutral language into this controversial topic. Simply because you hunted around and found these websites doesn't change any of this. No one has qualified 'most historians' or any other such notions. If the Smithsonian, PBS, TJF or anyone makes this claim they must source it with RS's as is required by Policy : Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.. Where is this established expert?? Also, claims made about 'most' constitute Original research. Where has the claim 'most historians' ever been published by an 'established expert in reliable third-party publications'?
While we're at it, why haven't you been able to source this claim with Reed, Finkelman, Onuf or any of the other 'favorites' used to source the Hemings topic?? THere are multiple policy issues with the section, once again, including undue weight given to items off topic. The section is hardly biographical. Focus is on histography, museums, etc, not Jefferson and Hemings. Strides need to be made to fix this.Gwillhickers (talk) 08:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

It's unclear what you mean by historical context, but I added more ID of Sally Hemings. As noted before on the TAlk page, TDOL asked for the content on Callender and the original reporting, and at one time you thought that added historical context. The controversy is largely about how historians have treated the evidence, including different oral history accounts; that is why historians are cited in this section, and always have been. TDOL also added to the details of the DNA test, to show why dissenters from the consensus take issue with it. PBS, an RS writing an overview and presenting extensive documentation about the J-H controversy, is sufficient as reporting on the consensus among historians and other experts (such as the National Genealogical Society, which I cited separately) and dissenting opinions. I didn't "hunt around" to find the PBS Jefferson's Blood; it is a major website accompanying the multi-part program.Parkwells (talk) 15:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it's time that you stopped editing the article to please Gwill. I was about to come in here and post a new topic about how crappy the controversy section is, but then it all clicked into place. Neither you or Gwill are doing the article any favors acting in this manner. Gwill shouldn't be the dictator and you shouldn't be trying to please him. Just stop editing and let's figure out a better way to do this besides chaos. Brad (talk) 20:45, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Parkwells is trying to please anyone, I believe he's claiming that as justification for some of the edits he makes with his own agenda.TheDarkOneLives (talk) 06:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree; have added a quote from the Smithsonian exhibit in the cite.Parkwells (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources

(Re-establish topic) ASW it would help if you would link to policy or guidelines that supports your various claims. Tertiary sources are only acceptable when they can show their claim is not original research: Because Wikipedia forbids original research, there is nothing reliable in it that isn't citable with something else'. Moreover, we are still dealing with self publicized sources.

Regardless of sources, the section needs to be largely rewritten, given a good intro, historical context, summary form, with brief commentary that reflects a wide view. Gwillhickers (talk) 08:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)--

Your understanding of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, original research, and self-publication are quite at odds with the more common interpretations. In particular, Wikipedia forbids original research by Wikipedia editors published only in Wikipedia. It has no problem to use original research first published by a reliable source elsewhere. Indeed, I would argue that that is its reason for being. Something published by the TJF or the Smithsonian or NPR is not usually considered "self-published", because it is published by an organisation with a reasonable reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. What I publish (only) on my personal website is self-published, but my papers published by Springer are neither self-published by me nor self-published by Springer. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:29, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

If an org publishes something written by e.g.an independent historian then of course this isn't considered 'self published'. If that same org publishes something by one (or more) of their own members then we are dealing with a self publication regardless of what some people may 'consider it as'. If that same person is not an established expert then we have yet another policy issue that needs to be dealt with. Aside from that, the section still needs to be rewritten. It is not a forum for historical commentary, esp one sided commentary. The greater bulk of the text should be devoted to historical content, providing what FACTS are known. Ambiguous commentary regarding "the scholarship" should be brief, balanced and clear. The off topic details about the museum and "six slave families at Monticello and their descendants" do not belong in the Jefferson-Hemings Controversy section at all as it has nothing to do with the controversy or Jefferson's life, i.e.his biography. I am hoping the editor who included this 'paragraph' will be gracious enough to remove it on his own [and perhaps include it on the Jefferson slavery page]. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:40, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

As Alanscottwalker, Brad, Stephen Schulz and I have noted, your interpretation of WP:RS policy related to publications by scholarly institutions is incorrect. Parkwells (talk) 22:43, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Secondly, a 2012 national "landmark exhibit" on Jefferson as slaveholder, with content about a slave family which the academic consensus says he was likely related to by both marriage and paternity, and others who supported his family, is certainly pertinent both to his biography and to the historic controversy. Parkwells (talk) 22:43, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

More of your broad, sweeping and unclear claims. If an org publishes an article written by their own member(s), not an independent historian, then please explain how this is not a self published source. The claim "not usually considered as" is just another empty claim to support your first empty claim. You need to start explaining yourself and link to policy and/or guidelines that supports your claim. Also these Self Published articles must be written by an established expert, just like other sources, not by some unknown entity: Policy : Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.. Again, where is this established expert?? Last you need to condense your commentary and simply state that the scholarship is widely divided as we did for the lede. Currently the section mentions Ellis, Burnstein, TJF, National Geographic and now the museum all used to promote the one myopic claim (not one or two children, but all six). The entire last three paragraphs is nothing but commentary. You are obviously trying to sway opinion with appearances rather than with facts. Understandable. The facts are sketchy and support other viable possibilities. Much more attention is given to historians than is given to Jefferson and Hemings. This is the only section where so many (selected) sources are dragged into the text. Would you please fix this now, or should I begin dragging in other sources to balance the ones you've selected? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The Smithsonian is a legitimate source for current research on Jefferson! Cmguy777 (talk) 23:55, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

1/5 of children in Virginia during Jefferson's times were mixed race and born out of wedlock.

Janell L. Carroll (2010) John D'Emilio, Estelle B. Freedman (1988) Cmguy777 (talk) 17:37, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

You also forgot to mention title and page numbers, not that I contest the claim, but if you're going to make them it would be nice if you could actually source them. Btw, what was your point? Is the figure "1/5" supposed to give weight to the theory of Jefferson's paternity? That number could be 2/5's or 3/5's and the case for TJ's paternity would remain unchanged. Nice appearance though, but we're intellectuals around here, not a group of naive students who are easily goaded into an opinion with appearances and academic peer pressure. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I brought this up since multi racial children were not uncommon in Virginia. There would be nothing out of the ordinary if Jefferson had children by Hemings. The Carroll (2010) source is on page 19. Carroll got this information from John D'Emilio, Estelle B. Freedman (1988). I do not have the page number for the John D'Emilio, Estelle B. Freedman (1988). Cmguy777 (talk) 03:58, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources: Carroll (2010) Sexuality now: embracing diversity ; John D'Emilio, Estelle B. Freedman (1988) Intimate matters: a history of sexuality in America Cmguy777 (talk) 04:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

How much historical weight needs to be devoted to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings? Callander had no signifigant effect on Thomas Jefferson's political carreer in terms of his accusation that Jefferson was sleeping with a concubine. Jefferson's legacy with slavery has more historical weight. The South rebelled over the slavery issue, not the Jefferson-Hemings controversy. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, they rebelled over slavery, state's rights -- not Jefferson/Hemings. Also, I didn't use the term 'historical weight' but rather 'historical content'. How much? Enough to give the reader so he or she can make up their own mind without all the redundant opinion from unknown writers which was obviously included to do that for them. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, readers do not need Wikipedia editors to do their thinking for them. There is historical consensus that Jefferson has a "relationship" with Sally Hemings, however, readers do not have to follow or endorse any opinions by any historians. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:58, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Section language

Cm', yes, students don't need WP editors to do their thinking -- and they don't need WP editors giving them a once sided picture, making it more difficult for them to do their own thinking. Parkwells has dragged in several web page articles (most with no writer, all with no recognized historian/professor) all so he can make the same statement, 'most'. TJF is mentioned twice in this capacity. None of these sources come from publications by established historians like Ferling, Berstein, Finkleman, Malone, not even Reed claims 'most', which is why he had to go to these high visibility cites who btw respond to or are dictated by political pressure and/or donations, unlike the other RS's.
You were the one who once insisted that sources be from Jefferson biographers when I wanted to cite 'treason' for the DOI section. Now look at you. We also went through a lot of discussion to get the language more neutral for controversial topics. After the page was blocked there was a notable effort to cooperate and we fixed the lede language. No one was 100% percent happy, but it was neutral. If you really want the students to think for themselves we must give them a neutral picture and focus on the facts, not opinion, because young and impressionable students often follow along. Again, commentary should be brief, acknowledge widely divided opinion because of inconclusive evidence with maybe mention for the Smithsonian/TJF on the one hand and TJHS on the other. This should take up no more than a couple of sentences. We can say Smithsonian/TJF claim 'most' while TJHS and many others disagree without all the off topic baggage.

Parkwells, ref #195 says nothing about the Jefferson/Hemings controversy and nothing about 'most historians', while ref 196 says most historians now believe there is a high probability that Jefferson fathered at least one of Sally Hemings' children. -- unlike the article which says the exhibit notes that evidence strongly supports the conclusion that Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings' children. It doesn't say the evidence strongly supports, only that there is opinion, which is qualified by "Jefferson fathered at least one". That source doesn't say most historians think he fathered all six. In any case we need to summarize all this commentary. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I added the direct quote from the Online Exhibition to cite #195, and an improved url that links to that page on Sally Hemings. As you will see, near the bottom after "What the DNA Says': it says, "While there were other adult males with the Jefferson Y chromosome living in Virginia at that time, most historians now believe that the documentary and genetic evidence, considered together, strongly support the conclusion that Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings’s children." (my bolding) Parkwells (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Insert : We've been waiting for you to get your edits/sources to abide by policy and guidelines. WP policy regarding RS's clearly says: The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work ... (emphasis mine). Whom are you quoting? Does the article have footnotes/sources? Policy regarding RS-writers has been brought to your attention several times now yet you continue to ignore it. We need better sourcing than politically inspired and highly opinionated web-page articles written by unknown authors. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, I am quoting the online exhibit material that is part of the exhibit, clearly labeled above. Please stop pushing your interpretation that the joint Smithsonian/Monticello exhibit webpage is not a RS. None of the other active editors on this article support your interpretation and they have repeatedly pointed out to you that you are incorrect.Parkwells (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I suggested both on your TAlk page and on this article page that you take your problems with this interpretation of PBS, Smithsonian and TJF to the RS Noticeboard. Your continued refusal to abide by a common-sense interpretation, as has been pointed out by editors such as Brad, Stephen Schulz and Alanscottwalker is increasingly disruptive.

"Common-sense interpretation" is your opinion. I am not the one who has had this section bloated out to five pages in length, I am one of the ones who (once) brought 'common sense' back to the section, and am presently trying to get the section to concentrate on historical content, facts and clear language. I am not the one who has the idea of 'most' covered with the most commentary than any other topic on the page. You have a long history of pushing a pov on this page and it needs to stop, as it has caused the page to be blocked twice now. Please do not instigate further disruption and get the controversy section to cover historical content and facts with commentary reflecting a wide view. As I said, we can use Smithsonian/TJF, and the TJHS but the commentary should be brief. The section is not a forum for histography, esp a selected histography. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia policy, "If you feel that a policy is problematic, the policy's talk page is the proper place to raise your concerns. If you simply disagree with someone's actions in an article, discuss it on the article talk page or related pages. If direct discussion fails to resolve a problem, look into dispute resolution.

Practically speaking, it is impossible for Wikipedia to be 100 percent consistent, and its rules will therefore never be perfect. If consensus strongly disagrees with you even after you have made proper efforts, then respect the consensus, rather than trying to sway it with disruptive tactics."

Please respect the consensus of editors on these sources.Parkwells (talk) 21:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

What's more at issue is your redundant use of the sources, all used to support the same opinion of 'most'. This in not the first time one-sided claims regarding Hemings have been over-sourced. Previously the lede mentioned slavery a half a dozen times. Before that, the lede once had more sources in the lede than any other topic there. This is occurring all over again. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The idea of inconclusive evidence needs to be established in the section. Currently the section only says that TJHS says insuffcient evidence. The evidence is indeed inconclusive and this needs to be stated early on in the section and not offered merely as an opinion of the TJHS. The section also needs to clearly state that the 'opinion' of Jefferson's paternity' is based on inconclusive evidence. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

This is your opinion; no one else has asked for it. The qualifications on the DNA testing are there. The consensus of historians do not think the evidence is "inconclusive," so you would need to provide a cite for saying that critics/dissenters believe the evidence is inconclusive. The material as it is summarizes the major points of view and reflects current scholarship, as seeen in the Smithsonian/Monticello exhibit.Parkwells (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Please don't use the term "current scholarship" as if they are one unified group of monolithic thinkers. This is yet another example of your continued use of sweeping, unclear and deceptive language. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Even Foster said DNA evidence was not conclusive, and I am sure there are other sources that also say this. Also, why isn't Foster and his opinion included in the section? Foster was a central figure in the controversy yet his name doesn't even occur once in the section! You also forgot to mention that Foster's DNA tests disproved Callander's accusations. The section starts off with Callander but fails to mention this item. Why are you reluctant to include clarity to the section? Why are you leaving out important facts? Perhaps if you were not trying to return pov language to the section you would concentrate more on the historical content -- and the facts. The section has far too much redundant opinion saying the same thing, while there are major items missing from the text. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

There is sufficient discussion of the qualifications of DNA testing. This is not the place for lengthy discussion of all the details by all the players and it is about more than the DNA testing. The overview hits the important aspects, which was chiefly historians relying more on Jefferson descendants' testimony (proved wrong for the Carrs) than accepting Hemings descendants' testimony. Foster's test did not disprove Callender's accusations; major historians think it affirmed Jefferson's paternity of Hemings' children. Other editors did not want the material on Woodson included and I agree that it does not belong in this section, but in the main article.People can go to the main article for details.Parkwells (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Insert : DNA tests disproved Callander's accusation that Woodson was Jefferson's son, and I noticed you didn't mention that but fell back on the term "Hemings' children". This is typically deceptive. No one said DNA tests disproved Jefferson's paternity of "Hemings' children" just Callender's accusuation which pertained to Hemings' first born child, Thomas Woodson. Also, if Woodson is not the son of Jefferson then we know that Hemings had multiple partners. The section needs to be clear on that also. As for your selected concern regarding putting mention of DNA clarity, Woodson, etc in 'main articles' -- there is also a main article for Slavery, Hemings, etc, where much of the excessive commentary should go. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Ref 195 still says nothing about the exhibit and the conclusions they have jumped to. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The quote is directly from the Online Exhibition webpages. Not sure why the url is not taking you there; go to Online Exhibition/Enslaves Families/Hemings/Sally Hemings. Not sure why the url doesn't take you there, as you can read that in it. The quote is there as part of the exhibition. Parkwells (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're doing, but you need to link to the actual page that spells out the claim you've made in the article. If you can't do this then the source and the claim needs to be removed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is the link again - it goes directly to the page: [1]. Both TDOL and I disagree with noting Woodson in this section. As I noted before, Callender did not name him, only noted that Hemings had a son named "Thomas" and other children. He never visited Monticello so had seen none of her children. It was Thomas Woodson descendants who claimed he was the first son of Hemings and Jefferson, but his name did not enter into the Jefferson family's defense. It is appropriate that he be dealt with only in the main article on the controversy.

Bogus claim

Parkwells, the source you used is putting out (very) inaccurate claims! The page you linked to says in the last paragraph: The test results show a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants i.e.More than one. As we all know, DNA tests only linked to one child, Eston. It's bad enough that this section is written in less than clear language with key points about the controversy left out, i.e.inconclusive DNA results, disproved Callender accusation, Hemings having multiple partners, but when you find sources that make a fundamental error of this scope something needs to be done. The web-page article as it reads claims there is a DNA link between the Jefferson line and all of Hemings' children!! -- 'descendants' ?? -- This is typical of the deceptive pov language used to sell this topic to the uninformed reader. Since your source put out a glaring 'untruth', what do you proposed to do about it? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:04, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The paragraph could be worded better unless it's meant to be outright misleading. There would of course be more than one descendant with the Jefferson DNA as it gets passed from one generation to the next but it isn't at all clear that's what they meant given the way it's written.TheDarkOneLives (talk) 01:45, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The last two words in that sentence are 'Hemings descendants' and whether or not the plural use of 'descendant' includes Jefferson males it still reads that 'Hemings descendants', i.e.all of them, have been linked by DNA. This is typical of the unclear weasel wording that is commonly used in the section. Currently the section reads ... the documentary and genetic evidence, considered together, strongly support the conclusion that Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings’s children. It could be said that the DNA and the other evidence 'strongly suggests' TJ was the father of Eston. However, all that is left as 'evidence' for the other children doesn't amount to anything that "strongly suggests". This is the perspective, along with clarity, that is missing in the section. If someone wants to argue that these 'details', i.e.clarity, belong in the main article then so should all the detailed commentary which repeatedly functions no more than to assert the idea of 'most' and 'all six children'. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:45, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

You've misread the source. Also, your interpretation of evidence is not RS. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you've misread the source. The sentence reads a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants'. This means all the Jefferson descendants and all of Hemings descendants. That same paragraph closes with the claim: documentary and genetic evidence, considered together, strongly support the conclusion that Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings’s children. The paragraph is written in such a way as to suggest that there is a Jeffersaon DNA link to all of Hemings' children. Can you show me the passage on that page that clearly says there is only a link to Eston and not the other Hemings descendants?? At this point I am no longer challenging the source in terms of disqualifying it as an RS, but attention still needs to be brought to this type of unclear writing. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

No. I think you should re-read it more closely and not try to read into it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:14, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

GW, You are contesting a sentence which I did not even use as a quote. Here is the quote I had included: "While there were other adult males with the Jefferson Y chromosome living in Virginia at that time, most historians now believe that the documentary and genetic evidence, considered together, strongly support the conclusion that Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings’s children." In addition, as I have already noted in cited sources with direct quotes from the historians, yes, historians including Joseph Ellis and Andrew Burstein have concluded that the test results for the Eston Hemings descendant mean that Jefferson fathered the rest of the children. That is their professional opinion based on all the evidence. You are beating a dead horse to continue to attack every sentence you don't like.Parkwells (talk) 21:00, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Whether or not you used the quote in question the page you linked/referred to clearly says The test results show a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants. i.e.More than one. And I only attack sentences that lack clarity and/or are downright deceptive. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

A note was added for the readers who read this source, reminding them that DNA evidence links to only Eston and 25 other Jefferson related males. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:49, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, the Smithsonian is the most practical recent (2012) view point on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Parkwell's is correct in mentioning the most recent view point on Jefferson and Hemings in the article. The Smithsonian is independant from the Thomas Jefferson foundation and apparently is a neutral source. As far as I know the Smithsonian is a conservative organization. I have been there in 1988 when Ronald Reagan was President. As far as I know the Smithsonian does not support fringe theories on Jefferson. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Views on Jefferson/Hemings vary greatly as has been brought to your attention several times, regardless of what TJF is claiming on behalf of the Smithsonian. As for "fringe theories" is the fact that Foster's DNA evidence inconclusive a FT? Is the fact that the DNA tests disproved Callander's Woodson accusation a FT? Dissenting views regarding Jefferson's paternity are common and are grossly under-represented in the section, and referring to them as 'fringe' is just another example of the deceptive language used to gloss over the many inconsistencies surrounding 'the evidence'. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Slow down here; I think Cmguy is only saying that the Smithsonian reflects consensus and is not a radical institution. He did not say that the DNA test disproving Woodson as a Jefferson descendant is a fringe theory. Parkwells (talk) 20:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, I was discussing the Smithsonian Institute as a conservative source, not DNA evidence! The current article does have dissenting opinion on Jefferson and Hemings. There is enough opinions on both sides of the issue. As has been agreed upon, the Jefferson-Hemings controversy does not have as much weight as Jefferson and slavery, in terms of historical impact. Also, I believe there is importance that the narration remain neutral as possible; not an argumentative courtroom dialogue. I agree with Parwells that the Smithsonian Institute represents current consensus opinion on Jefferson and Hemings. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Commentary/opinion

The 'Controversy section has far too much commentary, and the claim of 'most' is covered and 'sourced'(?) more than any other item in the entire biography. Propose suggestions to get commentary better summarized and representative of the wide range of opinion:

Suggestions/drafts:

• The subject of Jefferson and Hemings has been the source of much controversy and disagreement and as such historical consensus is widely divided. Many historians and The Smithsonian in conjunction with the Thomas Jefferson Foundation claim that most historians believe Jefferson was the father of some or all of Hemings' children while the Thomas Jefferson Heritage society and other historians maintain evidence is insufficient to make any such conclusions. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

This represents your opinion of your reading of the sources, and editor opinion is not the way to establish whether there is an academic consensus, as noted in the WP guidelines above which I copied to this page. You do not have a source that says "consensus is widely divided." I have three sources that say there is a consensus of "most historians...", while acknowledging that some scholars disagree, and I only need one RS: PBS Frontline Jefferson's Blood (2000), TJF overview (2010), and Smithsonian/Monticello 2012 Online Exhibit associated with Slavery at Jefferson's Monticello: The Paradox of Liberty. Perhaps they can be summarized as to the current state of Jeffersonian scholarship on this issue, while separately cited; it calls for reworking the section.Parkwells (talk) 21:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

We had this conversation before but like many other issues, you avoided that one too. If there are an appreciable number of notable historians, professors of history, etc, who disagree with the 'conclusions' then we can deduce that there is wide disagreement. As I asked once before If one sources says 'Apple Trees' grow on Smith Hill and another sources says 'Peach Trees' grow on Smith Hill are we not allowed to make an obvious deduction and say 'Fruit Trees' grow there? A direct answer would be appreciated. Again, as editors we are not merely copy-reword-paste bots and are allowed to make obvious and reasonable deductions based on the RS's. To be fair to the readers we should say that TJF, etc claims 'most' while many others historians disagree, all in a summary statement that doesn't overshadow the facts and historical content. Also, you have not provided any names of the historians/professors (assuming they are) who have made these claims. If the Smithsonian is this conservative org that Cm' claims it is, then I sort of doubt they are all on the same page as the TJF, etc. As guidelines and policy state, we need a name of the writer, where the info in question was published and from what sources the claim is based on. ALL of these things are missing from your 'sources'. This was the standard I was held to when I wanted to make a simple comment about 'treason'. Then of course we still have undue weight issues with all of this excessive commentary. Your part-time allegiance to policy and established guidelines is getting a bit much. You said you were going to have ArbCom look this issue over. Why haven't you done that? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Please see the WP policy on Academic Consensus above. I have an RS with a quote from the PBS Frontline program. As numerous other editors have noted, you are misreading policy about RS, so this discussion is non-productive. No active editor except for you does not think that the Smithsonian exhibit is an RS. I provided the names of the curators of the exhibition, who are responsible overall for the content. Your opinion is that "some disagreement" is "wide disagreement," but your itemizing sources does not establish that. Accept the cited sources and other editors' opinions and move on.Parkwells (talk) 14:53, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Arbcom does not settle content disputes, (I don't think Parkwells mentioned Arbcom) only conduct issues such as repeatedly misstating policy per wp:competence and ignoring what other editors say. As every editor has discussed the sourcing issues with Gwill, and tried to explain why he is mistaken about the terms in policy, the only thing that can be suggested to Gwill, at this point, is take it to the RS/N for further explanation, should he wish, or that he wp:drop the stick. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The Smithsonian display, Slavery at Jefferson's Monticello; Paradox of Liberty is a collaborative effort between The National Museum of African American History and Culture and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation . You can contact the Smithsonian to ask questions. Here is the link: Smithsonian Contact. Here is the link for the Thomas Jefferson Foundation Contact. Here is the contact link for the The National Museum of African American History and Culture. Readers can contact these organizations to request how the Smithsonian exhibit on Jefferson and slavery was put together. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

This is farking ridiculous

The Hemings section only keeps growing and growing. Does anyone realize how redundant and bloated it is now? Why are two paragraphs needed to push "most historians" when one would do? Why are there two paragraphs explaining how the debate came about? Why is there so much redundant crap in there? The section has 750 WORDS!!!!. The article is already several thousand words over size but Hemings gets bigger...and larger...and more bloated. Will it ever be possible to get this section into two paragraphs like I had it late last year? Two paragraphs.....Two. No more. Brad (talk) 02:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Above I suggested a brief summary for all the redundant commentary, with more emphasis on established facts and historical content. Several times I pointed out that the commentary for items like 'most' and 'all six children' is way over sourced and one sided, and all the text that has been inserted into the references is equally over-done, and merely echos the same message, i.e.'most', that is already in the section. Now some of these 'sources' are putting out very misleading statements, i.e.'Hemings descendants', so I added a little content and a note to add clarity and balance to the coverage. Meanwhile we have an entire paragraph devoted to a "landmark museum" -- dragged into the section only to repeat the same claim of 'most historians' -- all the while key figures like Foster are not even mentioned once in the section. This is what the section looked like back in early February -- two paragraphs Even then, the entire 2nd paragraph was nothing but opinionated commentary. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 09:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to attempt a cleanup and reduction but the last time I did that Parkwells began blowing it up again. The version you pointed out was the one that contained the 'out of Egypt' nonsense. It was that comment that finally convinced me how strong the agenda is here. Brad (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

It is amazing how editors forget that TDOL added the stuff on Callender and both he and Gwillhicker wanted more added on DNA qualifications, as well as TJHS complaints of the TJF report. Don't blame me for all the changes. Gwillhickers just added much content. The fact that a new, landmark museum exhibit opened in 2012 is an update and current news. This article is not going to stay stuck in the year 2000/2001 forever, as new information continues to be published.Parkwells (talk) 01:13, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, TDOL added Callander, etc. No one is 'blaming' you for all the changes, just for loading up the section with all the redundant commentary, the likes of which also exist in lengthy notes throughout the references. In fact, this is the only topic that has filled up the references with redundant and opinionated notes, the topics of which are already echoed in the section. Instead of using facts and historical content you have obviously been trying to 'wooo' the reader into an opinion with appearances and opinionated commentary which is why the section is full of it. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I may be in agreement with Brad on this issue. The Jefferson-Hemings controversy, in terms of historical weight, even if taken that Jefferson had children by Hemings, needs to be limited to allow the reader enough information, without getting into the specific argumentative details since there already is an article written on the subject. The best source for this controversy, in my opinion is the 2012 Smithsonian Institution Jefferson and slavery online exhibit. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:13, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

New Suggestion on Jefferson-Hemings controversy

As we have been unable to agree on our own language about content, I recommend we adopt a quote by an RS, and use two other brief sections:
1) use the overview summary quote from the 2000 PBS Frontline program, Jefferson's Blood (2000), which surveyed the field.
2) Include some details from the 2001 Scholars Commission Report, commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society. Cite this report.
3) Include a brief note on the 2012 Smithsonian exhibit, Slavery at Jefferson's Monticello, as it is a landmark exhibit. Also, it shows that the SCR and similar dissenting books published in the 11 years since the PBS report have not changed the consensus. This deletes 5700 bytes from the last version by Gwhillhickers. Editors can put other comments/details/arguments/cites in the main article on this topic.Parkwells (talk) 02:21, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

The section has been turned into an awkward, obfuscated mess. A section about a topic should start out defining what the topic is, not talking about PBS. Parkwells is clearly bound and determined to keep Callender's slander out of the article.TheDarkOneLives (talk) 04:40, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Without attempting to side with TDOL, the narration, although factually accurate, in the current Jefferson-Heming controversy section does not match the rest of the article. I believe there needs to be a brief historical background given, and cut to the chase; use the most current source out there, the 2012 Smithsonian Exhibit as source. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Parkwells what are you doing?? The section has been reduced in text, but it is now a joke. It starts off with mention of a TV program -- in the year 2000. Barely any facts and historical content. We need an intro describing the controversy, with mention of key players. i.e.Jefferson, Hemings, Randolph, Callender, Foster and a brief outline of the facts used to 'support' or 'challenge' the idea of paternity set in the framework of historical context. At the end, a brief commentary about historians. We can say 'most historians', with 'a' source, and then mention descending views with another source. Parkwells this section is not your personal sketch pad and forum. And please, no more quoting unless you can attach a recognized name to it. The section should be at least 90% FACTS and HISTORICAL CONTENT !! Please discuss major changes in the future. I am going to revert this mess shortly but will wait for comment, and from here we can all work on a very simple summary/draft. Fair? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:58, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I suggest we do nothing more to the text. lets discuss my proposal below. No more reverts, etc. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Smithsonian Exibit 2012

I believe the 2012 Smithsonian Slavery at Jefferson's Monticello; Paradox of Liberty is the best source currently for Thomas Jefferson and slavery, including the Jefferson-Hemings controversy. Parkwells is correct. Let's not get stuck in the 2000-2001 past. Wikipedia needs to have the most up to date sources on Jefferson. I have read through the online exhibit, and I believe the 2012 Smithsonian Exhibit is really fair to Jefferson, possibly even giving Jefferson a "light touch" at times. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:24, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

The Smithsonian Exhibit changes nothing regarding the consensus of most historians that right or wrong, was laid out 10 years ago. The fact that this exhibit is a current event holds no more or less weight than the 10yo information does, as nothing has changed. It's certainly a valid source regardless. Brad (talk) 23:57, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

That would mean that the 2012 Smithsonian exhibit has validated the 10 year old source information. 2012 adds weight to the Smithsonian source, in my opinion, and the Smithsonian exhibit covers much more then the Jefferson-Hemings controversy, possibly new material on Jefferson and slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:12, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Time to move on with the sources

Enough has already been discussed about sources for the Hemings section. Picking the sources to death is no longer helpful here. It's been weeks since the PBS and the TJF sites were considered good enough to use. No more picking and arguing. Remember that this latest blowout started with a change to the lead section. I'd suggest going back to the lead or just leaving everything the hell alone. It's amazing how things get sidetracked. Brad (talk) 21:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

At this point I would have to agree. Even if we got a ruling on one source, another would take its place. I also share your concern that None of these sources would survive the scrutiny of Featured Article requirements. So because Parkwells can not find a source where many of these claims are made by prominent historians, bonafied and unquestionable RS's, he has to resort to these web-page articles, written by unknown or less than expert authors, preventing the page from ever reaching FA status. I was recently taken to task for not using a Jefferson biographer. Where are those same descending voices now? The double standard, the pov pushing, the fuzzy language not to mention the hypocrisy used to push this topic is disappointing. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Brad agreed that PBS Frontline Jefferson's Blood and the TJF pages were RS, so take your mistaken ideas about RS elsewhere. As noted long ago on this Talk page, none of your complaints are the reasons why the article did not reach FA status. If you would look at the discussion above on that topic, you would see what their points were. I have cited three RS for quotes about consensus.Parkwells (talk) 01:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm behind in my responses because I've been on a "disgust break" the past few days. I still agree that the TJF, Frontline or whatever else sources would not stand up to FA scrutiny but this article has almost a zero chance of ever making FA status because of this Hemings crap and its agenda editors. Otherwise the sources are fine for the current condition the article is in.. which itself is crap. Brad (talk) 22:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Inaccuracies remain intact

The Thomas Jefferson Foundation does not accept the conclusion of the original DNA study as stated in the article, saying "This study by itself does not establish that Hemings's father was Thomas Jefferson, only that Hemings's father was a Jefferson" [monticello.org]. TJF's actual conclusion is very different than the one posted in Wikipedia, "a committee commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, after reviewing essentially the same material, reached different conclusions, namely that Sally Hemings was only a minor figure in Thomas Jefferson's life and that it is very unlikely he fathered any of her children." [monticello.org] The Wikipedia article at this time is inaccurate as it does not reflect the findings of TJF and leads readers to believe TJF agrees with conclusions that it does not. Revzack (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, but you are looking at the wrong material. Please see the direct quote by TJF with their summary opinion in the article. They look at the DNA and historic evidence.Parkwells (talk) 01:17, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

The Thomas Jefferson Foundation runs Monticello and the website http://www.monticello.org. It is a very distinct organisation from the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, a conservative group that was explicitly founded "To further the honor and integrity of Thomas Jefferson" and "To stand always in opposition to those who would seek to undermine the integrity of Thomas Jefferson". The TJF does report on the TJHS's Scholars Commission report, but indeed does not endorse it. I also notice that we apparently use Herb Barger's self-published account as a source for the (arguably) contentious claim that "In the late 20th century others have also used the idea of Jefferson's paternity to advance their own political and ideological agendas", which is very much unacceptable. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't see where the TJHS identifies themselves as conservative, and since there have always been various political and ideological/biased entities trying their best to denigrate Jefferson the position of the TJHS is defensive. We can still consider it a 'bias' but more accurately it is a defensive position in response to all the lies, half truths and distortions thrown at Jefferson for political, ideological and racial motivations. All one has to do is scrutinize org's like the present day TJF to see what sort of individuals are running the show over there. (i.e.Dianne Swann-Wright, Lucia (Cinder) Stanton, Julian Bond, Chairman of the NAACP) all heavily involved in racial and ideological pursuits. Historians like Barger are correct in asserting that the issue of Jefferson's alleged paternity has been and remains a means by which to advance their own ideologies. Such motivations are what started the controversy in 1802. Political, ideological and racial bias are the driving forces behind the controversy and remain so today. It is important that the uninformed reader be made aware of this perspective so they can better evaluate all the 'conclusions' made by these entities. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:45, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you need to urgently recalibrate your realitymeter. Jefferson is, arguably, the most idolized person in American history - nobody but Washington and Lincoln even comes close. "Defending Jefferson" is a worthy aim. Defending the sanitized, bowdlerized, squeaky clean image of him is propping up the falsification of history. There is plenty of the real Jefferson left to be proud of, even if we accept his failings and quirks. I have to say that I'm deeply concerned if you consider people like Stanton, Bond, and Swann-Wright to be "biased" because of their "racial and ideological pursuits". Since when is Herb Barger a historian? I certainly cannot find any publication by him in Google Scholar, nor a CV showing any formal education. As far as I can figure out, he is a hobbyist and a self-published internet activist. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:26, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Barger isn't an academic historian, however "hobbyist" isn't synonymous with being un-knowledgeable, nor is a degree a guarantee of competence. From where did Abraham Lincoln graduate high school or get his law degree?TheDarkOneLives (talk) 11:45, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Realities have a way of making themselves quite apparent so let's not lay claim to that for ourselves, shall we? Thanks. As for the reminder of Jefferson's place in history, yes, he has been both idolized -- and demonized, by his political enemies and others. As for the 'squeaky clean' rhetoric, I think most folks can live with the idea that if Jefferson had a child, or children, years after Martha was gone and he had admitted it, the story would have just come and gone as many other presidents, kings, queens, etc throughout history have had 'other partners'. Chances are he wouldn't have been reelected. Jefferson would have been 'given a number' and put on the shelf with all the others and more or less forgotten about. The inference that Jefferson's paternity is somehow wrong because Hemings was a slave is largely the product of conjecture and opinion as we have seen. Esp since Hemings and her children were all well provide for regardless of who the father(s) were. What is at issue is when an individual like Callander attacks a standing president for political reasons, with widespread publication in major newspapers, or when others along the line in history repeat the allegations for their own particular reasons, then we have issues. i.e. A Controversy. This is not to say that any author who goes along with the idea of Jefferson's paternity is motivated by agenda or ideology, but at the same time there are many entities who simply are -- and they are the ones who have been very often in the forefront and have managed to keep 'The Controversy' alive at various points in history, and largely for their own reasons. This idea is pivotal to the machinations and various forms we have seen this controversy take. It's important that readers new to this issue be made aware of this perspective. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree that this Barger source is in no way reliable. A self-published Angelfire page will not cut the mustard. Brad (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Barger is a noted Jefferson family historian and an expert on Jefferson and a geneologist. He and his wife Evelyn wrote 'The Jefferson Family of Virginia', 1987. Url2 He was the one who worked closely with Dr. Foster and Mrs. Bennett, the woman who approached Foster with the idea of looking into DNA evidence. Barger is the one who located the grave of William Hemings, the son of Madison Hemings when they were searching for DNA candidates. However, we can use the University of Virginia Magazine where Barger says the same thing. He even goes further and outlines the bias motives of some of the TJF staff and names Stanton and Bond in particular. Also, self published sources are ok if an expert is involved as I pointed out before when some editors didn't seem to mind that TJF web page articles are also written by TJF staff and self published, and with no expert's (or any) name. When I made issue with self published sources it was because there was no experts involved. Barger is an expert on the controversy and his and Foster's findings have been published by reliable third party sources everywhere. In any event, if you are not comfortable with Barger's personal web page we can use other sources. Apparently the complaint of bias and ideology/agenda pushing is common to this issue . -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Barger has not written in the University of Virginia Magazine, but only in the open online forum in reply to an article. This is again not reliably published. And you keep repeating that "Barger is a credentialed historian and an expert on Jefferson" without providing any valid evidence for this claim. Barger has been replying to every other Jefferson/Hemings discussion online and off, but that makes him dedicated, not competent. Again, as far as I can tell he has no formal training as an historian, nor published significant works in the scholarly literature - or even in the popular literature. Barger is not listed as a co-author of the Nature paper by Foster, either. And yes, Barger has called himself "Jefferson family historian" over and over and over again - that does not make him an expert. You are aware of the fact that you link to Barger's self-description in the Blurb of Hyland's book, not to an independent opinion, right? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:16, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Barger was not mentioned in the Nature article because they wouldn't allow other acknowledgements. Science magazine, 8 Jan 1999 : Foster says he didn't credit Barger because Nature doesn't permit acknowledgments in the correspondence section, where his report appeared. The Science magazine article also outlines Barger's involvement with Foster. Barger was chosen by Foster to locate family members and other descendants because of his in depth knowledge of Jefferson family members and others involved with the Jefferson family. Much of the material involved here is new, discovered, and is a specialized area of Jefferson's history, and at that time was not taught in your average university. Barger is more than an expert in this area of Jefferson history, he is a specialist which is specifically why he was approached by Foster and Bennett. Trying to block his perspective from the controversy on such baseless grounds is pov manipulation all over again. The Science magazine article also covers how the political influences played out and also highlights Barger's perspective in this area. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:18, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Before you try to make issue about Barger, founder of the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Foundation who has also published his writings about this issue, tell me why you were silent when I pointed to all the web articles with no expert or any writer to speak of. Again, Barger is the one who worked with Foster and was the one who provided them with historical research, etc. He was the historian that Foster and Bennett chose, approached and asked for research help. If he was good enough for Foster and others I think we can assume he is more than qualified to give us insights to this controversy. Your complaint is academic and without basis, considering all involved here. Again where was your concern for experts or historians when issue was made with other articles earlier? The fact that you previously referred to him as a 'hobbyist' tells us how little you know about him and the issue for that matter. Sort of like when you referred to treason and the DOI as a "common myth". -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I do think that the TJF is a good and reliable publisher of material on Jefferson. They have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Your interpretation that stuff published by the society is "self-published" was widely rejected. On the other hand, Barger is indeed the founder of the TJHF, which lacks a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and which you have previously accepted to not be a reliable source. A book review by Barger, published by Barger's society, is indeed self-published and not a reliable source. Let me add that the so-called book review is not a book review, but rather a mostly incoherent rant that only mentions the book in passing. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:53, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Even the TJF refers to Barger's work The Jefferson Family of Virginia in Appendix J of their sources. Also, thanks for your opinion about the "reputation" of the TJHS, whose members include former TJF committee member Dr. Ken Wallenborn. Again where was your concern for experts, actual writers, earlier? As for your concern about fact checking and accuracy I only have to point out how the TJF has held up 200+ year old 'oral history' as gospel and have used it in their "conclusions". -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Brad and Stephen Schulz, the links provided do not show themselves to be RS; there is a lot of RS out there on Jefferson but this is not it (for the many reasons stated above.) Yes the TJF analyzed the book "complied by" (not authored by) Mr. Barger. They reviewed tons of stuff to come to their conclusions, which only increases TJF's reliability, not Mr. Barger's. More to the point, that 20 some odd year old Barger book is not being cited in Wikipedia's article for anything, and is not being cited by you, here, for anything in it. Given the tons of works on everything about Jefferson, that have been published since then, there is no reason to cite such a minor work, here, from such a minor compiler. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Barger edit break

If the TJF can compile information and write an article, without a writer acknowledged, than so can Barger, a Jefferson historian and genealogist, with a name btw, who was approached by Foster and Bennett for help in research and finding present day DNA candidates. Yours is little different than the academic complaint Schulz made. Where the controversy is concerned Barger emerges as one of the best experts on the issue. You can criticize his web page domain perhaps, but he is referred to elsewhere, and it's sort of curious how you can so easily write off the fact that he worked with Foster, or that the TJF consulted his earlier work and listed it in their sources. To the contrary, Barger increased TJF's credibility as he is in opposition to their views, yet they refer to and cite him anyway. Sorry. You simply can't impeach his knowledge and credibility on such flimsy grounds as he was right in the middle of the issue along with Foster and Bennett as it unfolded. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

-- The important role Barger played with Foster is covered by a PBS /Frontline article, which is well sourced: 'A Primer on Jefferson DNA'. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

-- Here is an article covering how Peter Onuf invited Barger to a discussion about his book where he was then refused admittance to the discussion upon arrival. It also outlines how the advocates of Jefferson's paternity have refused to test William Hemings' DNA against Eston's DNA. Wonder what they were afraid of this time. This whole issue reeks of political/partisan manipulation. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:09, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

No, it does not. Will you please read the "sources" you propose? The only mentioning of Barger in that context is his research long after the Foster paper had been published. And it's not particularly important, either. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:43, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, yes it does. Will you please read the source you oppose? The sources mentions his 18 month search for the William Hemings grave site and mentions also how he provided irrefutable evidence, which more than defines his role and involvement in the controversy as it unfolded. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:33, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Barger's role is outlined rather well in this article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

As a genealogist, Barger helped track down Jefferson descendants for DNA testing; he was not intimately involved with anything else. It was Fawn Brodie McKay's research that had revealed the Eston Hemings Jefferson descendants and others on that side. He is simply referred to as a compiler of Jefferson genealogy, not as some expert.Parkwells (talk) 13:18, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Barger's work also appears to have COI/POV issues arising in family (his wife, it is claimed, is somehow related to the subjects of the DNA testing) and heritage groups. He may be, it appears, retired military but it's difficult to find his training in any field related to this. Given the amount of sources available, there seems little reason to try to rely on the opinions of present day family associated persons, unmediated by independent filters in scholarship. In this sense, the pedia should treat present day Jefferson family, Hemings family, and Woodson family opinions the same way scholarship does, if scholarship has examined them. But none of that should be in this short subsection of this article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. Barger was approached by Foster and Bennett 'because' he was intimately familiar with Jefferson history which in turn helped him to located grave sites and DNA candidates. ASW, why haven't you made the same demands for other sources, demanding 'experts', 'training', etc? Barger was chosen as a compiler of Jefferson history because -- why? Because he was not an expert in Jefferson history?? Enough of this academic BS and double standard. Barger is more than an adequate RS for mention on certain points in the controversy. If we can uses some ghostwriter with no name, or some curator whose qualifications are also unknown then we certainly can use Barger as a RS.-- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:33, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

No. Researchers went to family members to find out their claims, and their documents. They thus became the study of research by independent researchers. (And no it's not adequate for the many reasons many editors have stated above). Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:48, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

This is not at all clear. The only valid criticism made about Barger came from Brad regarding Barger's personal website. All other complaints are empty claims that revolve around a double standard. Please be more specific with your criticism. Again, if ghostwriters and 'curators' with unknown qualifications can be used as sources so can Barger. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:06, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

At the time all you supplied for a reference was that webpage. Since then you haven't supplied anything else that qualifies Barger as a reliable source. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about what constitutes a reliable source. In one link you supplied, Barger was used in a book by Hyland; the Hyland book could be used as a source. Your arguing over sources is way past the norm and disruptive. Brad (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Hyland's book cover's Barger's involvement rather well also. Sources. We were flooded with a barrage of web-page articles, many without even an expert/author named, yet Barger the noted family historian approached by Foster, is attacked as a 'hobbyist', not a historian, etc. The sources still need to be checked. Look what happens to the section when no one says anything. That is far more disruptive than what occurs on talk pages. As I said several days ago, I am done trying to disqualify the sources in question and am just pushing for brief commentary no matter which source is used, with the bulk of the text devoted to historical facts and content. Again, this is the only topic in the biography that has received so much (one sided) commentary, so much so that it takes up the bulk of the text in the section. This is "Farking" RIDICULOUS! -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:44, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Has Barger himself published any major work that has appeared in books or peer reviewed publications? Does he have any credentials as an historian? If not, then he's not a RS. Just because he put up his own webpage and made some comment to a magazine article makes him neither an expert or a RS. Additionally, he's not doing himself any favors by trolling around the www posting things in angry CAPS to make his point. The TJF had a panel of historians review the evidence and make a decision. Frontline is and has been a reputable investigative news magazine for several decades. It's beyond anyone's control here what the TJF decided to do with the report they were given. While I agree that the TJF pulled a politically correct shuck and jive, your continual warring over sources is disruptive. Brad (talk) 16:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Brad, as I have twice said I've stopped trying to disqualify these questionable sources days ago. When I offered Barger as a source it wasn't me who initiated the 'warring', and I haven't taken TJF to task for some time, however I may do so again if I feel there is a need. Esp if they put out blatantly false claims e.g.'Hemings descendants', as one of these sources has. As for a RS and the idea that it must be from an 'expert', does this include all the sources? i.e.A Jefferson historian? No one has been very clear with that, at all. I think from here on end, any complaint aimed at a source must be based in policy, not the 'opinion' of a couple of editors (not you) with a history of waving policy when it suits them. I am in agreement that the Angelfire domain is less than adequate, however as for Barger the 'individual' he is referenced as a historian by a number of sources, including TJF, Hyland1, Hyland2 and PBS Frontline (used as a source in the section). The fact that Barger is a Jefferson family historian and a genealogist and was sought out by Foster and Bennett and worked with them helps to establish him as an expert on the various family members and other individuals involved with the controversy. Will look for other sources where he is acknowledged and referred to. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:38, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is another third party source that has published Barger's account The Jefferson-Hemings myth:an American travesty, by Eyler Robert Coates Sr, .p.25. See also: Amazon This book is also listed under further reading on the Sally Hemings page. Coates (deceased) was a graduate of Louisiana State University and he was Section Head (Supervisor), at the Library of Congress from 1974-78. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I no longer even understand what you're trying to establish here. Barger cannot be used as a source for this article but that does not prevent using the sources that he was consulted for, Hyland etc. Barger has moved over to jeffersondnastudy.com which contains an entire section devoted to discrediting Joseph Ellis and reads like a tabloid hit-piece. This is all I've left to say on the matter of Barger. Brad (talk) 21:17, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Am trying to establish Barger as a source, either directly or indirectly via a third party. Barger is a valuable source for items regarding Jefferson family descendants and others close to the Jeffersons, as were the Hemings, and who, again, was chosen by and worked with Foster and Bennett because of his in depth knowledge in this area. His wife being a Jefferson/related descendant he apparently had a natural interest in family history. Apparently what history he has sought out and compiled is not the stuff you're going to have spoon fed to you in college. He also saw the political and other interests play their role as the DNA evidence unfolded. So he attacks Ellis. Many of these historians at one time or another do the same. I can only image how many times Barger has been the subject of a 'hit piece'. This is an issue? Don't quite understand this aversion to someone like Barger. Does he require a phd? So far the only criticisms put forth have been academic and ad'hom. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:27, 13 April 2012 (UTC)