Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 02:22, 17 May 2012

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

Shortcut

WP:RD/L

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

May 9

West African surname

Hi all - I can't help but notice, when listening to world news or sport, just how common the West African surname Cisse seems to be. I see for the dab page here that it's Mandinko in origin, but I was wondering if anyone here had any idea as to its meaning... is it perhaps a "trade surname", similar to Smith, Cooper, or Hunter in English, or perhaps a toponym-related name like the English surname Hill? Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 02:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oral tradition describes it as an old royal clan name, dating back to the dawn of the Ghana Empire. I don't think the etymology is clear at all, though there are explanations in oral tradition. One site I found states "that the name “Cisse” is an honorific patronymic name attributed to the founder of the dynasty Wagadou for bringing the horse in West Africa , and indeed, the very name “sy” means in sarakhole tongue (language of the Soninke), “white horse”." [1]. The mentioned founder of the kingdom, "Djabe Makan (Diaba) Cissé", is spelled Majan Dyabe Cisse in en.wikipedia's articles (e.g. the ones on Ghana Empire or History of the Soninke people. Then again, his father's name was already "Cissé" too, in oral tradition, so ...). ---Sluzzelin talk 04:55, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(update) Similarly, the French Wikipedia article on Soninke people (fr:Soninkés) has: "Cissé (and its variants Cise, Sise or Siise) occupies a special place as it was the patronym of the first six Soninke clans descending from the six sons of Dingka. "Ci" means "horse", "cisé" would mean "rider"/"horseman." ---Sluzzelin talk 09:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I suppose if there was an English language equivalent, "Knight" would be about as close as you could get then, both in terms of the horserider connotation and the status. Grutness...wha? 23:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Marshall (name) as well. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also mention the names Chevalier and Rider as having 'knightly' connotations, and Stewart/Stuart as a royal clan name with its roots in a position at court. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

なる (Japanese)

Hi,

a) In a particular context, うれしくてならなかったよ is translated as "That made me so glad".

b) As I understand it, 学校に行かなくてはならない conveys the idea "must go to school".

Both involve the use of the negative form of the verb なる. I realise that both usages may be idiomatic to some extent, but I would like to understand, in each case, the literal meaning of なる, and how the overall meaning derives from that literal meaning. Along the way, I would also like to understand what connection, if any, exists between these two meanings of なる. 86.160.82.205 (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning ot the first sentence is #3 and #3 at the bottom. Please see the difference between two sentences. The first one uses "(うれしく)て", but the second one uses"(いかなく)ては". Oda Mari (talk) 16:16, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mari, those dictionary entries tell me what these patterns mean, but what I don't understand, and what I want to know, is why they mean what they do. I do not understand what the verb なる literally means in these cases, or whether there is any connection between the two meanings. Can you (or anyone) explain that? 81.159.105.59 (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the second one can be related to なる in the sense of becoming—it means "nothing [good] comes of not going to school". I suppose the first one means that you couldn't control your happiness, i.e., that it wouldn't become anything else. That's a bit of a stretch, admittedly. -- BenRG (talk) 07:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As for b, it's a double negative. See the (行か)なくて part. 学校に行かなくて can be translated as "not go to school". 行かなくてもいい is (you) don't have to go to school. You can go is 行ってもいい, you know. 行かない is not to go and 行かなくなった is he /she stopped going. And ならない denies the first part. See #1. It's not a double nebative example, a simple "do not enter" sentence with ならない. As for a, I cannot explain well. This ならない is used to express unrestrained emotion. It's used mostly with a combination of a て/te form adverb like 悲しくて, くやしくて, or 腹が立って and ならない. When it is used with a te form verb, as far as I know, it should be xx(し)たくて/want to xx like 行きたくて. Not with 行かなくて. But I personally use たまらない [2] [3] or しかたがない [4] [5] more often than ならない. I think BenRG is correct. Oda Mari (talk) 10:33, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. "I suppose the first one means that you couldn't control your happiness, i.e., that it wouldn't become anything else." -- the difficulty I have with this explanation is that I see nothing in the Japanese corresponding to "anything else". If anything, going down this route seems to produce the meaning "wouldn't become happiness", which appears to be essentially the opposite of what is really meant. Also, does anyone have any view about who or what -- if anything -- is the actual grammatical subject of ならない in (b)? Is it grammatically possible for it to be 学校に行かなくて, or is it some other unstated thing? 86.181.201.75 (talk) 02:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

学校に行かなくて is the topic of the second sentence (は is the topic marker). In the first sentence ～くて is being used in the sense of "I am/was so ~ that...", which makes sense in combination with たまらない ("I'm so happy I can't stand it") or しかたがない ("I'm so happy I can't help it"). So both sentences come close to making sense if ならない is a shortened form of 何にもならない. One can be hopelessly happy, and as for not going to school, it won't get you anywhere. -- BenRG (talk) 07:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It might be better to remember なくてはならない as a set phrase because it is also an adjective.[6] I think the usage in (b) is not unlike a "cannot/do not ...without..." sentence in en. This can be also applied to なければならない and なくてはいけない. The subject in (b) would be I. But it could be "you", "they", "he/she", "children", etc and I think the subject is omitted in (b). As for (a), think like this. ならない itself is a negative foam and can be translated not only "must not" and "should not", but also "cannot help (feeling)" or "cannot stop ...ing". Or think it as a modified and shortened form of Xずにはいられない. See also [7]. Ja is different from en. The definition and its usage of a word/phrase cannot be explained or put into one place in en grammar. Oda Mari (talk) 08:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the further suggestions. I think you have identified the crux of the difficulty in reconciling these two uses (at least in English) when you say that ならない "can be translated not only 'must not' and 'should not', but also 'cannot help (feeling)' or 'cannot stop ...ing'". In English, these have virtually opposite senses. In most basic terms, the first two mean that something does not happen, while the second two mean that something does happen. I'm trying to wrap my head around Ben's concept but I'm not quite there yet. Perhaps these uses are so deeply idiomatic that there is no really satisfactory explanation. 86.148.152.229 (talk) 11:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May 10

How do you label an amount of nothing, such as 0 bee(s). Would I be correct in treating nothing like a plural?(English language)

Lets say having nothing of something but you want to state this is so. If you have 0 somethings, would you say 0 something or 0 somethings (or something else, like "no somethings")? Editor0000001 ^talk 11:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In general, yes. English "plural" is really non-singular: anything other than one should take it: Zero people came, no people came, zero degrees centigrade, zero point one degrees centigrade. However, prescriptive grammar sometimes says that "plural" means two or more, and that affects people's speech. Also, negative numbers can be a bit weird, since the grammar didn't really evolve with them. (They tend to be the mirror image, so −1 is singular like +1.) — kwami (talk) 11:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe fractions between 0 and 1 are also treated as singular: half a banana, a half gallon, etc. StuRat (talk) 02:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's only because it's a unit fraction: one half is. If it were two thirds, it would be plural again. — kwami (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In what context are you envisaging using a plural verb with "two thirds"? I would say "Two thirds of a banana is enough", "Two thirds of a gallon is about 3 litres". "Two thirds of the people are married", sure, but that's because of "people", not "two thirds". 86.148.152.229 (talk) 11:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) It would depend on what kind of "something" you're talking about. If the item was a mass noun, you wouldn't usually use a plural; if it's a count noun (like "bees"), then you would. There's a bit of overlap in cases where things that are normally mass nouns get counted. For example, honey is usually not counted, so you'd say "I have no honey", but if you were in a food warehouse counting out cases of product you could say that there were "no honeys" or "zero honeys" in a given location. Using a zero in the sentence usually indicates that you're using a count noun. Matt Deres (talk) 11:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Yes, We Have No Bananas"...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the high school where I work the kids from one end of the town are more likely to say "We ain't got no bananas". I doubt if this helps. 20:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

They didn't need no education. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Korean translation

There's a rumour that female runner Shin Geum-Dan was actually a man. I suspect one of the following debunks this, but don't trust Google translate, and have no idea how reliable either source is:

ehistory.korea.kr, in particular this embedded MP4 (6.4MB)
h21.hani.co.kr

I would be grateful if a Korean-speaker could reply at Talk:Shin Geum-Dan#Gender question. Thanks jnestorius^(talk) 17:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ş alt code

What's the alt code for ş? I googled it, but the alt codes I got, Alt+0351 and Alt+0352, give me _ and `. What is the correct alt code (in Windows 7, English)? --108.206.4.199 (talk) 23:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Cedilla article might lead somewhere useful. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Turns out this was discussed here in February.[8] This link came up, oddly enough, in a google search. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unicode is your friend. Put "ş" in - exactly those characters, "&", "0", "3", "5" "1" ";" and it should show up as ş irrespective of what keyboard or OS you're using to type it in. (I'm using a Mac and the Alt key does different things to what it does under Windows). A capital Ş is Ş. Alternatively there's a handy set of characters just down there ↓ when you're editing a page, just below "If you do not want…". Select "Latin" from the "Insert" dropdown and there's a whole bunch of characters with diacritical marks. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tonywalton, you're possibly missing the fact that the IP managed to insert the letter into their question! Code page 852 seems to suggest that the answer might be 0173: I can't vouch for it though. --ColinFine (talk) 21:48, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not hard to do, considering it can be copied from the cedilla article: ş ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't miss it – in fact I wondered how they'd done it without an "alt code" (horrible Windows-centric term though that is). I assumed, as evidently has BB Bugs, that they'd copied it from somewhere like here or elsewhere. Using Wikimedia's "Insert" dropdown appears to be the handiest, obviating the need to trawl the Web (or Unicode, at least) for single characters like Ș, Ŵ, ə, č, ↓ or even ∐, whatever OS/hardware/keyboard you happen to be using. Of course if you're doing a lot of work in a character set outside plain vanilla ASCII you'd be as well to select a keyboard appropriate to the symbols you intend to use. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:25, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The OP asked for an alt code and you told him how to insert the character in an HTML page. What if he's writing some other kind of document, like in a text editor or word processor or something? Angr (talk) 23:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Like you, I get _ and ` (Win 7). There is some stuff about this at Alt code. As I understand it, it's saying that for reasons of backwards compatibility, Windows may not always convert Alt codes according to Unicode standard, but may revert to some earlier character map. It explains how to circumvent this (prefix the code with "+" on the numeric keypad, type the code in hex), but you have to add the registry key too, like it says (edit the registry at your own risk). Remember you have to type it in hex, so 351 is 15F. I have just tried this and it works fine in Notepad and Word, but not in this edit window (IE 9), or, apparently, in IE generally, where apparently something is intercepting the keypress sequence and doing something different when it detects Alt+F. Great design, if true! 86.181.201.75 (talk) 03:25, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May 11

Pronunciation of Sans Pareil

How do English-speaking one pronounce the name of the Sans Pareil? sænz Pareil? sæns Pareil? or in the French manner so parei? Of couse, it might be supposed that the variant sænz Pareil is the most probable but I would like to check it. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 15:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During my former incarnation as Editor of a (rather obscure and odd) Locomotives and Railways periodical publication (Club Loco Philatelica aka Locomotive Philatelica), I only ever encountered it as the first of your examples. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 17:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I understood you pronounce the name Sans Pareil as Sans Pareil but never do in the Franch manner. I would like ask you about one thing yet. Which sound in the end of word "Sans" is in the most common use? z or s? Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 18:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"z", as I implied in my first answer. This is strictly Original Research rather than cited, but in my professional dealings on the subject with railway writers and enthusiasts, I never heard the name of the locomotive pronounced otherwise by an English speaker unless they were deliberately using the conventional French pronunciation as a joke. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.211 (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Title added to aid future searching - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My SOED gives two variants for "sans" /sanz, sɑ̃ (z)/ (/a/ is /æ/ there). And in the supplement to the same article it gives /parɛ:j/ for "sans pareil", though I think anglicized /pɑːˈreɪ, pæˈreɪ/ are also acceptable. So two or three possible pronunciations can exist: English-like /ˈsænz pɑːˈreɪ, pæˈreɪ/ and French-like /sɑ̃ parɛj/.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 01:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Title adjusted to aid future searching. In cases like this there can be many variations, one person using a close approximation to the French and another who doesn't know the word is from French at all and gives a letter-by-letter rendering. The last syllable could be similar to any of ray, rye, rail, rile, or even perhaps real. - Sussexonian (talk) 07:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sans Pareil would have already been widely known in Britain as the name of a famous warship; see HMS Sans Pareil (1794). The Royal Navy is noted for its idiosyncratic pronunciation of non-native ship's names. Because of the pronunciation of HMS Bellerophon in the same era, she was known as the "Billy Rough'un" or "Billy Ruffian"; "Boney went a-cruisin' / Way-aye-yah! / Aboard the Billy Ruffian / Johnny Franswor!" Alansplodge (talk) 09:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reminded of nonpareils. It's been decades since I had occasion to use any, but when I was a kid, the packets were always labelled "nonpareils" - except nobody, but nobody, ever called them that. It was always "hundreds and thousands". If we did try to say the "proper name", it was usually like non-pa-RELZ. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 09:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

sans-pareilly /sænz pəˈreɪli/, I think. nonpareils: /nɒn pəˈrɛlz/ for me too. — kwami (talk) 09:35, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was interesting in the pronunciation of the word combination by English-native speaker who doesn't know the word is from French at all. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 10:17, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Thanks to everyone who pitched in and helped. I think I'v got a complete answer. Well, now I think the right pronunciation of the word combination and the name "Sans Pareil" by English-native speaker is sænz Pareil with sound "z" at the end of the Sans and with sound "l" at the end of the Pareil. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 10:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. However, on another matter you mention, I think very few English-native speakers (at least in Britain) would not know that such words originate in French, even if they had never studied the French language in school (which, to generalize, was usual in the 20th century for most pupils). France has always been Britain's closest neighbor; we were "taken over" by the French-speaking Normans who created many French place-names, whose pronunciations we have anglicized but which are readily recognizable by their spellings; and in more recent centuries British speakers fully educated in French (i.e. most of the upper classes) have introduced many French terms into English which non-French speakers are well aware of. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.211 (talk) 11:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May 12

Pat in the middle

Like so many times before, I used to phrase "pat in the middle of" and then started wondering if it really is a valid phrase, or something I just made up. Google didn't turn up anything. Can anyone help? Have you heard this being used elsewhere? Sample sentence: "When you don't sweat for a week pat in the middle of summer, you begin to feel like something's amiss." Thanks in advance. 117.226.250.244 (talk) 07:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's related to "be pat", "pat expression", etc. — kwami (talk) 08:22, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's familiar, but there was nothing in the OED. But I was able to find a few things:

Wauwa Pease says of the strategic position of the Pirates in the dining room: “They have taken the table near the upper doorway so they can make a speedy exit in case their lair is raided.” Of course, the Wauwas stand pat in the middle of the dining room, having nothing to fear.

—"At the Wauwatosa Table" (1922 Sept 22), City Club News, Milwaukee, vol viii no. 2 p. 7

Candidates in gubernatorial campaigns must stand pat in the middle, trying to push their rivals off the center line, charging the opponent with either left or right extremism.

—Newsweek (1962)

In Ogoni[land], Shell locations lie pat in the middle of villages, in front and back gardens – and that should lay a particular responsibility on Shell to be absolutely cautious in its operations.

—Ken Saro-Wiwa (1995), A Month and a Day, p. 112

I think I'll add those to Wiktionary. — kwami (talk) 08:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a new expression to me - it seems to be US English. The equivalent UK English would be 'slap bang in the middle of'. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's used in the US as well. (though also 'slap dab'?) Sounds highly colloquial, though, and this doesn't. And 'slap' and 'pat' are of course semantically related. — kwami (talk) 09:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Smack dab in the middle" (another kind of slap, curiously) or "Spang in the middle" are more common around my area of the US, though definitely informal usage. -- Elphion (talk) 17:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can see lots of potential for confusion with "slap dash". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:42, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Smack Dab in the Middle is a great Jesse Stone song. --Trovatore (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The term "stand pat" comes from poker.[9] Why "pat" is part of that is kind of unclear.[10] In any case, to "stand pat" means to keep the cards you've got rather than discarding and drawing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_drifters/up_on_the_roof.html.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isambard Kingdom Brunel

How do you pronounce his first and his family name? --KnightMove (talk) 08:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've always heard it as IZ-uhm-~~bard~~bahd broo-NEL. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Search Youtube for Isambard Kingdom Brunel. (I can't seem to get the link past the spam filter) There isn't much variation in pronunciation. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Added to article. — kwami (talk) 08:57, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added the pronunciation back in 2006 (either from an old Daniel Jones or BBC), odd that it fell out of the article.--Cam (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing ever just "falls out" of our articles. They're either cruelly and callously ripped out, causing immense pain; or they're surgically excised with a good anaesthetic explanation and lots of pethidine. :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC) [reply]

I have occasionally heard it pronounced EYE-zuhm-bard, but I'd agree that the pronunciation you hear most often is the one Jack suggested. Grutness...wha? 01:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If a source is needed, Webster's New Biographical Dictionary gives (only) Jack's pronunciation of "Isambard". Deor (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. But the old and the new version are not identic yet:

[ˈɪzəmbɑ(ɹ)d ˈkɪŋdəm brʊˈnɛl]

/ˈɪzəmb[invalid input: 'ar']d br[invalid input: 'oo']ˈnɛl/

Can we reach consensus about the r- and the u-sound? --KnightMove (talk) 05:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think these differences fall within the scope of normal variation between speakers. 86.181.205.76 (talk) 11:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Standard" UK pronunciation would not have an "r" in "bard" -- it's more like "bah-d", and as Jak is of Oz, where "bard" is also generally non-rhotically as "bah-d", I would not mark the sound as "ar" in the IPA. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My "bard" was not meant to indicate a rhotic regime. I've changed it to bahd to be clear (as in, the Bahd of Avon). -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 17:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the "u", I read Jack's key as indicating the "oo" in "food" and not the "oo" in "too", simply because it's "brunel" and not "bru-nel", so the original IPA is not inconsistent with Jack's explanation. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's both, because my "oo"s in "food" and "too" are identical. Now, my "oo"s in "foot" and "book" are different (but the same as each other, if you get my meaning), but they weren't what I was thinking of. The first syllable of Brunel is the same as the word "brew". I really ought to get around to becoming an IPA-ophone. -- ♬ Jack of Ooze ♬ ^{[your turn]} 17:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the feeling that we're within the normal variations of pronunciation here, and probably over-thinking this too much, but for what it's worth I would go more towards the "foot" and "book" pronunciation. I live quite close to Brunel University, and locally that is pronounced 'bruhNELL' with an unstressed first syllable. I guess that's something like the local pronunciation of Marylebone as 'maa-bn'. So, to sum up: If I'm in conversation with the Queen, it's "brooNELL", but dahn the rub-a-dub wivv me old china it's "br-NELL" or "bruhNELL".

Apologies that I don't speak IPA. I hope you can make some sense of it anyway. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I'm back among my books I can report that my source was BBC Pronouncing Dictionary of British Names, 2nd ed. (1983) under "Brunel" (p. 37).--Cam (talk) 01:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pleasantly surprised

What is a word that would mean pleasantly surprised? Not just surprised, but something that much pleases a person. Example would be where a man proposes to a lady. While she may be surprised, she is also flabbergasted (pleasantly surprised).--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delighted? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 13:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While they're not all entirely appropriate for the exact situation described, how about "thrilled", "touched", "charmed", "enchanted", "taken"? Tevildo (talk) 14:35, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am delighted in your answers. Thanks gentlemen.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or "overjoyed", perhaps. --Viennese Waltz 07:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Giddy would be loosely possible. Breathless, too, maybe. In either case you'd probably need to provide context to get the full idea across. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Userpage Translation

The inactive user YellowMonkey has a picture on his userpage that says, "Đừng liên hệ với khỉ phản động ! Khỉ vàng là nhà chống cách mạng ! Ra lệnh của đản cộng sản và công an Wikipedia." What does this mean? Google Translate says it's "Do not contact the reactionary monkey! Golden Monkey is the anti-revolutionary! Ordered the police led the production and Wikipedia." Inter change able 18:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vietdict.co is better than google. Dot contact the reactionary monkey! Yellow monkey is a counter-revolutionary! By order of the Communist Party and the Wikipedia police. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May 13

What is the correct reading for "鹿目?"

How is this supposed to be read? To my knowledge, "鹿目" can be read as "Kaname", but Google Translate insists that it is read as "Kanome". "鹿" can be read as "shika" and "目" can be read as me, but which is the correct reading? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 11:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It depends. 鹿目の滝, a water fall in Kumamoto, is Kaname no Taki. 鹿目まどか, an anime character, is Kaname Madoka. But 鹿目善輔, an Imperial Japanese navy officer, was Zensuke Kanome. 鹿目由紀, a playwright, is Yuki Kanome. 鹿目付, a historical post of deer keeper in Nara was Shikametsuke. Oda Mari (talk) 16:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hand meaning skill

Is there a period in time (century) when "hand" or "hands" had more of a meaning of "skill" than today? When did this usage begin? Example: This was made by my hand meaning, "This was made by my skill." Another example: These purses were made by my hands meaning "These purses were made by my skills."--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 12:17, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see either of those as meaning "skill(s)", specifically. 86.181.205.76 (talk) 13:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't really mean skill, it just means you made it yourself. Although there's a nuance there, suggesting skillful work, otherwise why bring it up? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The information at wikt:hand includes this definition.

Power of performance; means of execution; ability; skill; dexterity.

Then it includes a quotation of this statement by Joseph Addison in The Spectator on October 2, 1712.

My friend Will Honeycomb has told me for above this half year, that he had a great mind to try his hand at a Spectator, and that he would fain have one of his writing in my works.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:19, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The OED has as its meaning 11 for hand: "Capacity of doing something with the hand, and hence of doing generally; skill, ability, knack", with quotations from 1398 to 1881. However, the use seems obsolete to me, except in a few set phrases such as try one's hand and a dab hand. --ColinFine (talk) 22:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can't give dictionary references, but "hand-" as a prefix can infer quality even today. Words like "handmade" and "handcrafted" carry a whiff of the master artisan, whereas "homemade" sounds like someone on their third carpentry or knitting project. --NellieBly (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From my reading of (well-researched) novels (such as many by Ellis Peters) set in Mediaeval England, the term "he is a man of his hands" (which might be used in reference to oneself, e.g. "I am a man of my hands") meant in that milieu that the man referred to was trained in the armed combat skills required by a squire, knight or other fighting man, such as the use of mace, sword, dagger, etc. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 11:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question for ColinFine: Can you give me the quotation of what the OED shows for 1398? Thanks bunches.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I may substitute for Colin, it says:

"1398 TREVISA Barth. De P. R. v. xxviii.(1493) 137 We sayen thyse haue a good hond, that is to vnderstonde, a good crafte of wrytynge other of payntynge."

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.211 (talk) 00:28, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I must hand it to all you excellent editors for giving me a hand at this question. Thank you.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 16:03, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hakuna matata

Hi. How does one say Hakuna matata in the Pirahã language? Thanks. ~AH1 ^(discuss!) 21:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How does one say "Inutile est" in the Lower Elbonian dialect of Vedic Sanskrit? -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're wondering what native expression in Pirahã most closely captures the flavor of "hakuna matata", you're asking a very esoteric question that is not likely to be answered here. If you email your question to a Pirahã specialist, you might receive a helpful reply. Unfortunately, you'll have no way of knowing if the translation you've been given is accurate, or if the linguist is just humoring you with a random sequence of letters. LANTZY ^TALK 12:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By far the leading Pirahã expert in the English-speaking world is Daniel Everett (though not all his conclusions are undisputed by other linguists), so AstroTurf001 could have cut out the middleman and wasted Everett's time, instead of semi-trolling here... AnonMoos (talk) 12:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"ever" in Spanish

Let say I want to say. It is the hardest thing "ever"!. I meant like It is the hardest thing from the beginning of time to this moment! How do i say it in spanish? The word "ever"! Thanks!Pendragon5 (talk) 22:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Es la cosa más difícil de todos los tiempos. Lesgles (talk) 02:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or simply Es lo dificilísimo. LANTZY ^TALK 07:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May 14

Buttercup sandwiches

What does the phrase "buttercup sandwiches" mean? I'm reading a biography about Syd Barrett, A Very Irregular Head: The Life of Syd Barrett, and this phrase is used at one point. If you'd like it in context, here goes:

"I don't think he was at all political. He was much more buttercup sandwiches and pixies. More cosmic. More mystic."

It then goes on to say:

"Donovan was buttercup sandwiches and went on being buttercup sandwiches long after everyone else had stopped."

I think I get it from context but I'd like someone to explain it if you can so that I can put more precise meaning to the phrase. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 06:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a proverbial foodstuff consumed by flower children. It comes from the 1969 song To B Without a Hitch by the folk singer Bridget St John. In this case, it's just a way of saying that Syd Barrett was somehow starry-eyed and hippy-dippy. LANTZY ^TALK 08:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although any hippies reading this shouldn't try it at home, because "Ranunculaceae contain protoanemonin, which is toxic to humans and animals.". Apparently "Ingesting fresh Ranunculaceae can lead to nausea, vomiting, dizziness, spasms, or paralysis." Yum! Alansplodge (talk) 14:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Thank you both! Dismas|^(talk) 08:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of an Afrikaans standard expression

The expression "Dit is nie die dood van Katryn nie", in English "It is not the death of Catherine", is used to express the idea that some event is not as disasterous as it might at first seem. It is usually used to placate or calm down someone who is overreacting to an event or prefixed to reporting an event so as to preclude excessive alarm in the audence. I'm not sure if the expression exists in Dutch or any of the other European languages that influenced Afrikaans during it's formative period - mid 17th to early 20th century. I presume "Catherine" would have been someone politically or socially important and her death probably caused a major upheaval of some sort. My prime suspects are several European queens of the period who were named Catherine or a variant of the name. Is it possible to identify the specific Catherine whose death gave rise to this idiom? Roger (talk) 13:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like a minced oath for "dood van Christus" or "kruisdood" or "kruisiging", which Dutch speakers frequently use in the sense of "big deal" or "pain in the ass". Among Afrikaners the expression might have been bowdlerized so as not to offend Calvinist sensibilities. LANTZY ^TALK 18:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's a blog about it here, where Katryn is described as a traditional Afrikaans name, not any particular person. Fwiw, it's not mentioned in David Crystal's vast collection of international proverbs, As They Say in Zanzibar. Not that the book contains etymologies anyway, but I just mention this as an indicator of the apparent obscurity of the expression. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the replies. The blogger is basically asking the same question I am - not providing any answer to the question. The theory that it is euphemism for the "death of Christ" is certainly plausible, however, such euphemisms usually rhyme with the original word they are obscuring. "Katryn" is nowhere near rhyming with "Christus". I'm not yet convinced that Katryn/Catherine was not a real person whose death was a highly significant event. Roger (talk) 08:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think such euphemism rhyme in general, e.g. 'what the heck' for 'hell', 'fudge' for 'fuck' etc. They usually start out the same as the original so that it is possible to correct oneself halfway through the word. Btw I am not aware of the expression with something like Katryn existing in Dutch. - Lindert (talk) 10:45, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neither am I. It seems theoretically possible that there is an underlying expression *Kerst sijn doot ("Christ his death") or something similar. Iblardi (talk) 12:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because Afrikaans is closely related to Dutch, it might be a reference to nl:Katrijn, a doll who is the wife of the doll nl:Jan Klaassen (pop). In English they are known as Punch & Judy. I am native Dutch, and the first thing I, and presumably most Dutch people, think of when hearing the name Katrijn/Katryn is this doll. 93.95.251.162 (talk) 14:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC) Martin.[reply]

Ever ever a verb?

H. L. Mencken, in his American Language, says that:

"the compound negative is of great antiquity and was once quite respectable. The student of Anglo-Saxon encounters it constantly. In that language the negative of the verb was formed by prefixing a particle, _ne_. Thus, _singan_ (=_to sing_) became _ne singan_ (=_not to sing_). In case the verb began with a vowel the _ne_ dropped its _e_ and was combined with the verb, as in _naefre_ (never), from _ne-aefre_ (=_not ever_)."

(Underscores represent italics). Is he talking nonsense, or was aefre a verb in Anglo-Saxon? Henry ^Flower 14:58, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which reminds me... (many) decades ago, we asked our high-school French teacher if, to convey the meaning of without, one were obliged to use the word sans, or whether we could get away with "n'avec pas". She assured us that our notion, while creative, was a non-starter. So I guess that with, anyway, is not a verb. In French anyway. According to our teacher anyway.—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 15:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bing and Frank might have evered. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how aefre could have been a verb. I think that this is an unusually poorly written bit of Mencken and that he just means that never was formed by the same process that was used to form negatives of verbs, not that aefre was a verb. Marco polo (talk) 16:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure Marco Polo is right. If Mencken had said "just like" rather than "as in" it would have been clearer, but I don't think it's particularly bad writing. --ColinFine (talk) 17:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not horrific, but not up to Mencken's usual standard. Marco polo (talk) 17:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the idea, though it seems a strain given how he continues: he goes on to talk further about verbs and then goes on to negation of other parts of speech:

"In case the verb began with an _h_ or a _w_ followed by a vowel, the _h_ or _w_ of the verb and the _e_ of _ne_ were both dropped, as in _naefth_ (=_has not_), from _ne-haefth_ (=_not has_), and _nolde_ (=_would not_), from _ne-wolde_. Finally, in case the vowel following a _w_ was an _i_, it changed to _y_, as in _nyste_ (=_knew not_), from _ne-wiste_. But inasmuch as Anglo-Saxon was a fully inflected language the inflections for the negative did not stop with the verbs; the indefinite article, the indefinite pronoun and even some of the nouns were also inflected, and survivors of those forms appear to this day in such words as _none_ and _nothing_. "

Henry ^Flower 23:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May 16

Japanese emotional words missing

Template:Formerly

On the website

http://biulimiafighting.info/dying-to-be-thin-anorexia-in-japan-tbij/

It says "‘In Japanese there are no words for “I’m suffering” or “I’m sad”. I can’t share my feelings with anyone. Needing help is seen as failure, something to be ashamed of.’"

But on Google Translate, I get

http://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cja%7CI%20am%20suffering.%20I%20am%20sad. 220.239.37.244 (talk) 01:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't comment on the social aspects of this, but the claim that the Japanese language itself has no way to express those concepts is surely total nonsense... 86.179.0.156 (talk) 02:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am revising the heading of this section from "Can someone explain this to me" to "Japanese emotional words missing", in harmony with WP:TPOC, point 13 (Section headings). Please see Microcontent: Headlines and Subject Lines (Alertbox).

—Wavelength (talk) 02:46, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it's nonsense. There's an awful lot of it out there. This is precisely why Wikipedia asks for references to reliable sources.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ronald Reagan used to claim that there was no word for "freedom" in the Russian language. There are some quasi-Whorfian differences between languages, but they're generally subtler than lacking any words for basic human concepts and experiences... AnonMoos (talk) 08:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly it's not true that George W Bush once said that the French have no word for entrepreneur. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But it is true that there's no synonym for "synonym". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 09:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How about "alias"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See wikt:synonym#Synonyms.—Wavelength (talk) 23:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I Googled "In Japanese there are no words for “I’m suffering” or “I’m sad”" and this was the first hit. By the way, Google Translate does accurately translate your two sentences. -- BenRG (talk) 21:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese word for "crisis" V85 (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do think it's possible for a language to lack a single word for a basic concept. In English, for example, we lack a single word for "male cousin". StuRat (talk) 23:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Foxes

The word fox seems to have a myriad different forms in the various Indoeuropean languages.

Vulpes in Latin, volpe in Italian
Fox in English, vos in Dutch, Fuchs in German
Zorro in Spanish
Guineu in Catalan
Raev in Danish, räv in Swedish
Llwynog in Welsh
Alepou in Greek
Louarn in Breton, lowarn in Cornish
Renard in French
Sionnach in Gaelic
Lisica in Croatian, lis in Polish, lisicha in Russian
Àrnar in Picard
Raposa in Portuguese, rabosa in Aragonese

My question is: why are there so many different etymological roots for an animal which was common in Europe and in the proposed Indoeuropean urheimat? Is there a particular reason why the Indoeuropean root for "fox" was not preserved in a majority of European IE languages? Leptictidium (mt) 08:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if the Indoeuropean root is "ulp", which can also mean "wolf", maybe that's why there is a tendency to seek terms that mean "fox" more specifically. Of your list above, the Latin and Greek both seem to be from "ulp". The Welsh is surely the same etymon as the Cornish and Breton. "Renard" in French is a nickname, found in English as Reynard, from the Roman de Renart. The Picard is probably a reflex of that. Here we find a suggestion that the Occitan guèine, and thus the Catalan, are from a Germanic personal name. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that unusual - the English "horse", Latin "caballus" and German "Pferd" seem unrelated. Similarly, the English "dog", Latin "canis", and Russian "sobáka" all refer to the same animal. The Indo-Europeans had taboos about speaking the names of some animals such as wolves and bears[11][12], though this doesn't seem to have applied to foxes (or indeed horses and dogs). My guess would be a combination of borrowing from non Indo-European languages (as with the Spanish[13]), the use of multiple names for different sexes/ages/breeds/related species with different ones becoming generalised (e.g. the Russian word for dog is related to the ancient Greek for puppy), and a tendency to give nicknames to common animals (as with Renard). --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add that the ancient French name for a fox was a "goupil", which is derived straight from the Latin. --Xuxl (talk) 09:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Minor correction: the Russian for fox without regard to gender is the male version, lisá (which happens to be grammatically feminine). The word for a vixen is lisitsa (also feminine). There is no lisicha. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 09:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But there is lisichka :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); May 16, 2012; 18:48 (UTC)

Pravilno. Foxes eat hedgehogs, so watch out. :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC) [reply]

The Online Etymological Dictionary has some interesting information about the etymology of "fox" and some of its equivalents in other languages. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 16#Meaning "jumps".

—Wavelength (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Renard in french was the name of the anthromorphic fox hero of "Le roman de Renart" which became so famous in France that the old name "goupil" (from latin vulpes) was gradually replaced by renard.Dhatier (talk) 02:21, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Citation style at UK universities

I notice in the library webpages of some UK universities, including Cambridge, that some American style guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style are recommended for citations. But these style guides contain comprehensive style advice for entire research papers, not just the citations. And some of the advice, such as date formats ("16 May 2012" vs. "May 16, 2012") is at odds with UK usage. So how is this resolved? Is UK usage followed in the body of the paper and the American style guide used for the citations? Or are the rules in the American style guide modified to agree with the usage in the body of the paper? Jc3s5h (talk) 12:45, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When I was at university, it seemed like there was no system at all. So long as a single system was used coherently throughout the essay, it didn't matter (much) exactly what style was used. Style sheets only applied to the bibliography and citations of essays, other things, such as margins, front page, running heads, and the alike were completely ignored. (We just used the defaults in the word processor, rather than fidling around with it to match the style sheet.) The thing that was most strict was the information that we were to provide on the cover page of the essay. While the specifics such as font, font size and spacing were not relevant, there were requirements, such as student ID number, which none of the style sheets I came across, included.

As for dates, those style sheets which I came across, despite being American, all seemed to favour the UK way of writing dates (DD-MM-YY) rather than the American (MM-DD-YY). As in your example, as long as the months are written out (or in abbreviated form in letters) it doesn't really matter much whether you're using American or UK style, since the specific date will be clear; it's only once you start writing both days and months using only numbers that there can be some ambiguity. V85 (talk) 15:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The current CMOS doesn't seem to require either system: "In the month-day-year style of dates, commas must be used to set off the year. In the day-month-year system—useful in material that requires many full dates (and standard in British English)—no commas are needed" (6.45). Lesgles (talk) 16:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've taught at two universities and the guidance at each was exactly the same: follow the guidance given by the Study Skills tutor. Every university has its own style guide which you are required to follow. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:49, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for grammatical help

I am working on an article and want to know which wording is correct. Should it be:

"The diagnosis of many conditions often also requires a skin biopsy."

OR

"The diagnosis of a many conditions often also requires a skin biopsy."

Thanks in advance for your help! ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 14:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely the first, and you might be able to drop "The" from the start of the sentence, although more context would be necessary. --LarryMac | Talk 14:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that only the first option is possible. The second might come from confusion with "The diagnosis of many a condition...", which is grammatically OK but sounds slightly archaic. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with LarryMac and AndrewWTaylor, and suggest the sentence might be shortened if context allows:

"~~The d~~Diagnosis of many conditions often ~~also~~ requires a skin biopsy."

Jc3s5h (talk) 15:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the best way to phrase a sentence depends on context, but the grammar aspect in this sentence is very clear: The a in the second sentence is grammatically incorrect. The a is the indefinite singular article, whereas the word conditions is plural. Either write a condition or many conditions. V85 (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another option is the following.

The diagnoses of many conditions often also require skin biopsies.

However, I prefer the following option because it is less ambiguous about the number of biopsies required for each diagnosis.

It often happens that the diagnosis of a condition requires a skin biopsy.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are two slightly different meanings. Wavelength's last option is just a general statement with no subtle implications. My version could be read to imply that many conditions sometimes require a biopsy to form a diagnosis, but some other conditions can be diagnosed without a biopsy. So the version chosen should reflect the actual state of affairs. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have a little trouble with often in these sentences. Wouldn't "Many skin conditions require a biopsy for diagnosis/to be diagnosed" be more clear? By adding often it seems to me to imply that many conditions require a biopsy a lot of the time, but not all the time. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some jerk on the Internet wrote "by adding often it seems to me to imply that many conditions require a biopsy a lot of the time, but not all the time." I'm no expert on conditions, but I would expect this to be true. Doesn't it seem likely that early on a condition could easily be confused with other conditions, but when it reaches an advanced stage it's obvious to a skin doctor what the condition is? Jc3s5h (talk) 19:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bronze two-pounders

Hello. I am a french speaking contributor. In the french translation of Artillery of Japan, the translation of the sentence "[these cannons] were bronze two-pounders, about 9 feet long, ..." is nonsense, but I don't understand its meaning in english. No need for you to translate, just to explain. Thank you for your help. Dhatier (talk) 02:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 268: / Line 268: @@
 :See [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 16#Meaning "jumps"]].
 :—[[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 20:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
-:Renard in french was the name of the anthromorphic fox hero of "[[Reynard|Le roman de Renart]]" which became so famous in France that the old name "goupil" (from latin vulpes) was gradually replaced by renard.[[User:Dhatier|Dhatier]] ([[User talk:Dhatier|talk]]) 02:21, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
+::Renard in french was the name of the anthromorphic fox hero of "[[Reynard|Le roman de Renart]]" which became so famous in France that the old name "goupil" (from latin vulpes) was gradually replaced by renard.[[User:Dhatier|Dhatier]] ([[User talk:Dhatier|talk]]) 02:21, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 ==Citation style at UK universities==