Talk:Delčevo

Fair use rationale for Image:Delcevo od kejot.jpg

Image:Delcevo od kejot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 08:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

• Delčevo → Delchevo – 17:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• Kočani → Kochani
• Pehčevo → Pehchevo
• Probištip → Probishtip
• Štip → Shtip
• Staro Nagoričane → Staro Nagorichane
• Krivogaštani → Krivogashtani
• Kruševo → Krushevo
• Rostuša → Rostusha
• Vrapčište → Vrapchishte
• Želino → Zhelino
• Aračinovo → Arachinovo
• Čair → Chair
• Čučer-Sandevo → Chucher-Sandevo
• Gjorče Petrov → Gjorche Petrov
• Karpoš → Karposh
• Sopište → Sopishte
• Studeničani → Studenichani
• Šuto Orizari → Shuto Orizari
• Konče → Konche
• Radoviš → Radovish
• Centar Župa → Centar Zhupa
• Belčišta → Belchishta
• Kičevo → Kichevo
• Vevčani → Vevchani
• Vraneštica → Vraneshtica
• Čaška → Chashka

– Diacritic signs are not used by the Government in Macedonia. They use diagraphs. The passport/identity card/driving license naming uses: sh for š, ch for č, dzh for dž, zh for ž, kj for ḱ, gj for ĝ, lj while the State Statistical Office use the same plus ts for c (the usage of ts for c requires further documentation). Macedonicus (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

If these are indeed the official names then I support the move.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Whether this is official or not, I think we should choose whichever version is more commonly used. If the government has indeed stopped using diacritics, which I hope is not the case since diacritics make words more visually pleasing at least to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should change the article names. I'd say a solid majority of road signs in the country still spell place-names with the diacritics. --Local hero ^talk 22:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

... therefore, I oppose since I don't think this transition has occurred. --Local hero ^talk 04:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose moves, for now. The traditional academic transliteration has had official status for Macedonian for decades (see Romanization of Macedonian) and is well established in English usage. I'm not seeing any clear evidence that this has changed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose moves for now, since things need to go slowly and with consensus in the Macedonia area. Obviously things are in flux in Skopje as Fut.Perf points out re. Romanization of Macedonian. But what's more of an issue is the way here on en.wp this move proposal comes after mass moves by edit warring, and a lack of discussion, lack of consensus on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Republic of Macedonia. I see that there's been this attempt to move AL3X TH3 GR8 (talk · contribs) aka Macedonicus (talk · contribs) since 12 August 2011 on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) but consensus isn't apparent.

As far as the actual proposal, rightly or wrongly English-language sources are still using the old Yugoslav romanization of Macedonian:

"To enter Bulgaria from Berovo, head 25km north to Delčevo (120MKD, three daily buses). Crossing from Delčevo to the yeah-baby university town of Blagoevgrad requires a taxi (€25)." Marika McAdam Lonely Planet Western Balkans 2009 Page 325

I'd like to see some more evidence, less edit-warring, and more consensus at WikiProject Macedonia and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) before a RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support as this is the English language Wikipedia & therefore we should avoid using diacritics. The English alphabet has no diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 19:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: you know, there are English words with diacritics. HandsomeFella (talk) 22:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: I find your perceived need to "protect" the English language strange and rather illogical. If you so care about it, howcome you don't even bother to write the word "English" capitalized, which is the rule? HandsomeFella (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: ok, you've corrected it now. You know, when people have responded to your comments, you should not alter or redact them. It will make people's responses hard to understand without looking through the page history. You should strikethrough the replaced words/sentences. That's actually a wp rule for talkpages. HandsomeFella (talk) 22:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: If you truly believed this, you would nominate Chloë Grace Moretz and Chloë Sevigny to be renamed. We're still waiting. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

If/when someone else nominates them, I'll participate in the RMs. GoodDay (talk) 03:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

If/when you nominate them, be sure to include Zoë Wanamaker. HandsomeFella (talk) 08:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose for now, I'd like to see more citations about this new transliteration scheme. Surely it's been discussed in Macedonian media, or perhaps a law was passed? Can you provide such citations, in English or in Macedonian? Is there a plan to redo road signs on major highways, is there any continuing controversy or debate within the country? Whatever the Macedonian government and people decide, the world will surely eventually follow, although it may take a bit of wait-and-see (as was the case, for instance, with Indian city names like Kolkata), and it may be perfectly sensible to use a diacritic-less transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet (after all, we already do this for Russian). On the other hand, I would worry that perhaps this new transliteration scheme might not be a "done deal"; maybe it is just a proposal, and one faction pushing for this change is simply trying to use Wikipedia as a platform to promote this change? (I am thinking, for instance, of the periodic attempts to rename the Czech Republic article to Czechia). Can you provide citations to reassure us? I oppose for now, but we could perhaps revisit the issue later. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: sensible approach. HandsomeFella (talk) 12:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support & Comment: I would like to explain some things. The road signs that use Yugoslav transcription are the old road signs - the new ones use diagraphs. Second of all, those English travel websites are copying information from here and they see "Delčevo" so it's likely for them to write "Delčevo" instead of "Delchevo". People are using Wikipedia more than we all think so that is why we need to provide accurate information. Indeed, the English alphabet does not use diacritics and the transliteration issue is appearing at the English Wikipedia only. Look how the French transliterate the Macedonian names without asking for a law for transliteration (Deltchevo). I understand that the Macedonian government haven't come up with official law for transliteration, but in case like this, it's better to respect the official documents issued by the government which use diagraphs for the Macedonian names both in passports, road signs and english version of the websites. In my ID card there is "Скопjе - Чаир" or "Skopje - Chair" (not Čair). For the lovers of the visual appearance of the diacritics - that's not a good excuse for leaving them in usage. Another thing that you should all consider is, currently the Macedonian cyrillic alphabet is the only non-English alphabet romanized with diacritics, every other cyrillic alphabet is romanized with diagraphs (Serbian is exception because Serbia is using two official scripts - Cyrillic and Latin which is not the case with Macedonia). Macedonicus (talk) 11:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Macedonicus, first re. strikethrough above: you cannot support your own nomination, please remove. Otherwise, interesting information, please upload some new road-signs to wiki commons. And quite happily waiting for presentation of actual evidence on WT:CYR. No one opposes a change to a Bulgarian-like transliteration system if you can present evidence, so present evidence. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. For English-language GBooks post 2000, the traditional system is more common across the board, typically by a factor of four or five. The latest travel book, published in 2010, uses the traditional system. That's as up-to-date as it gets. What system the government uses for ID cards and driver's licenses has nothing to do with anything. Kauffner (talk) 07:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Don't you think that the travel books look for information here on Wikipedia? So when the reader goes to the website of the Municipality of Kochani he is confused because he seen "Kočani" at Wikipedia/TravelGuide and Kochani at the genuine web site? That's exactly why I suggested this, Wikipedia has huge influence over other site (even Google Maps used to copy information from here) and what government uses for ID cards and naming places is exactly what it counts. I'm 100% sure that if Wikipedia had the names with diagraphs, the travel books would copy that information. Once again, that traditional system is not part of Macedonia anymore. That system was in force when Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia and preset at the old ID cards and passports. According to you, Wikipedia shouldn't listen to the government for transliteration? If that's the case, let's change the naming to the Bulgarian, Russian, Greek and other diagraph-transliteration countries to the scientific one. Macedonicus (talk) 11:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

These newer road signs use the traditional transliteration: [1], [2], [3]. --Local hero ^talk 20:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)