Talk:Annuit cœptis

Latin Issues

a. Coepi is usually considered a defective verb in Latin; it lacks a present system. Most dictionaries will list the verb under coepi, coepisse, and perhaps that is what should be done here. Present forms such as "coepio" are rarely seen and are not classical. b. Pronunciation in classical Latin (as opposed to Anglicized Latin): 'an-noo-it 'koyp-tees. -T. Gnaevus Faber @ la wiki —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.246.15 (talk) 08:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The Aeneid

I'm fairly certain these two phrases are taken directly from Virgil's Aeneid. Shouldn't that be mentioned? ~Neil

Redirect

Current version of the article is little more than a dictionary definition. I have redirected to List of Latin phrases#A. If/when someone has enough more to say to turn this into a full stand-alone article, please revert this redirect to the prior version. Rossami 21:49, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

The wording of this article exudes a bias using phrases such as "as some Right-Wingers want us to think". It is also in desperate need of wikification.glocks out 20:24, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. The problematic paragraph had been copied directly from its source, so I simply removed it and improved what was left. — Elembis 08:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Very good. glocks out 23:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Pronounciation

How is this phrase pronounced? If someone can post a phonetic representation, I could attempt an IPA transliteration. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 16:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

Why is it, that every time I translate this phrase it comes up as "to obliterate to begin" or "Out of Chaos, Order"? Mika'el (talk) 22:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Annuit coeptis = 13 letters

Symbolically, the phrase Annuit coeptis has 13 letters (as does E pluribus unum). This example of gematria (isopsephy) then represents the 13 colonies becoming the United States. (The back of the US 2010 penny features E pluribus unum and a shield with 13 vertical stripes.) The back of the US dollar includes these 13 letters among 13 symbolic references to the number 13. - p. 121, The Secret Symbols of the Dollar Bill by David Ovason (Harper Collins, 2004)

The ancient practice of Hebrew gematria/Greek isopsephy/Arabic Hisab al-Jummal (and modern Simple[6,74] English[7,74] Gematria[8,74]) appears to primarily concentrate on the gematric sums of words/names, i.e. Ruler=74 Sargon=74 (S19+a1+r18g7+o15+n14). But this is actually 'Step 2' of gematria(74). 'Step 1' of gematria(8) is simply counting the number of letters in a word/name/phrase. Because of Roman Numerals not coinciding with their place in the Latin Alphabet, i.e. I does not = 1, Latin gematria never gave much importance to Step 2 of gematric sum. But the learned Romans and other learned practioners of Latin did recognize Step 1 of counting the Latin letters and giving significance to it. This practice can be traced back to Plato's (Pythagoreans') use of "God is ever a geometer", which in Greek ἀεὶ ὁ Θεὸς ὁ μέγας γεωμετρεῖ equals 3,1,4,1,5,9 or 3.14159 π pi. - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 75.74.156.102 (talk) 13:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The Significance of Thirteen Letters: This Is not in Dispute Among Experts

The rejection by Clindberg of the fact that the motto was chosen for having 13 letters runs counter to recent scholarship, official government explanations, and common sense. The seal contains the following:

• 13 stars in the crest
• 13 stripes in the shield
• 13 olive leaves
• 13 olives
• 13 arrows
• 13 feathers of the arrows
• 13 levels of stone in the Pyramid
• 13 letters in the motto E Pluribus Unum

Clindberg would have us to believe that the fact that Annuit Coeptis also has thirteen letters was purely by coincidence and that there is no evidence that it was chosen to fit the theme. However, the official government historians of the Great Seal. Patterson and Dougall, The Eagle and the Shield, published by the Department of State, 1976, makes it clear that the motto "Annuit Coeptis" was in fact chosen BECAUSE of the number of letters. There is consensus that Thomson drew the expression from Virgil, who wrote, "Jupiter omnipotens, audacibus annue cœptis." Patterson and Dougall explained that Thomson changed the expression to the third person in order to arrive at the thirteen letters (see Patterson & Dougall, cited by Hieronimus; Guillard Hunt, a previous historian of the State Dept. is also cited therein, The Great Seal of the United States, also published by the U.S. State Dept. http://books.google.com/books?id=NnVIt8rpkrcC&pg=PA111#v=onepage&q&f=false Clindberg suggests that the diphthong oe as printed on the dollar should be only counted as one letter. But no such single letter exists in Latin. Oe is a ligature, like the ampersand "&" (cursive "et") at best. It is found in no Latin alphabet as a singular letter in any age. The implication that Barton exchanged "Deo Favente" for "Annuit Coeptis" in order to excise "God" from the motto runs contrary to historical consensus of experts; it is likely a preferred alternative interpretation posed by those with a religious or anti-religious agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilltoppers (talk • contribs) 20:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I own of a copy of the Patterson and Dougall book; which page is that assertion on? I don't recall any conclusion of theirs supporting the statement, but I may have missed it. Rather, they attribute the spelling to the particular edition of Eclogue IV that Thomson owned, as that appears to affect the spelling both of this motto and Novus Ordo Seclorum, both derived from Virgil as you say, both of which Thomson came up with (not Barton). This is on pages 89-90. The authors suspect that if Thomson had owned a different edition, the mottoes would have been spelled a bit differently (possibly without the œ ligature in the case of this motto, but as "oe", or perhaps spelled "adnuit"). As for that link, I think that's reading a lot more into the Patterson text than what is there. Here is the statement from the book: Thomson changed the imperative annue to annuit, the third person singular form of the same verb in either the present tense of the perfect tense. At no point do the authors speculate as to why -- that appears to be a pure invention of the author of the book you link, and so I'm not sure I would consider that a reliable source. Very misleading. Patterson/Dougall then discuss the situation of the missing noun, and do note that Hunt suggested the subject was the eye itself, and note that in later publications it has been construed to mean God, without anything further nor offering their own speculation. I also own a copy of Hunt's brochure; he actually did two versions, one of which had a bunch of significant errors, the second better but not perfect. I don't remember the 13-letter discussion there either, but I'll have to go back. As for the implication that the mottoes were changed to excise "God", I'd have to agree that isn't there either. I thought about removing that other passage from the article too, but it is cited. It's not supported at all in the Patterson and Dougall book. I don't think there is any evidence either it was changed for that reason; rather, Thomson's own description links this motto and the Eye of Providence (a generally religious symbol) together. This all took place well before the Constitution was created anyways; that is really the first point that there was a conscious attempt to separate church and state, I'm pretty sure. If I had to guess, Thomson probably changed the two mottos simply to be more scholarly (he was a Latin teacher), as the two of them are both from Virgil quotes. As for the overall theme of "13", yes it's there, but not to that extent. The various contributors gave their reasonings for many things; I don't recall any evidence that E Pluribus Unum was chosen because it had 13 letters; rather that appears to be coincidental, as does Annuit Cœptis. The 13 stripes, 13 stars in the crest, and 13 arrows are absolutely references to the 13 colonies, and documented as such. They even intentionally violated the rules of heraldry to get the mention of 13 stripes in the blazon. The 13 olive leaves and 13 olives however were not a feature until the 1885 rendition of the seal, a full century later, and were not in the original symbolism discussions whatsoever, and any argument which tries to use that as evidence as to Barton's and Thomson's intent is pretty immediately suspect. (The first version of the seal had no olives at all, and 15 leaves.) While blazons during the design process did specify 13 levels to the pyramid, that is not in the final version, and is simply an artistic choice of whoever makes a particular version, though admittedly that aspect is pretty conventional by now. I have not seen any real evidence that the mottos were there because they had 13 letters (Novus Ordo Seclorum sure doesn't), and there is a certain amount of documentation and discussion available from the principals, without any such mention as far as I'm aware. It is not supported at all in the Patterson and Dougall book, from what I can find, which is about as authoritative source as you can get -- it's several hundred pages, and you don't get the feel they left any stone unturned. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:07, 11 June 2012 (UTC)