Talk:José Eduardo dos Santos

Sao Tome

There have been several edits in the past that claim that JEdS was born in Sao Tome. Every source of information that I have says that he is of Mbundu origin born in Luanda. I'm curious if there's any documentation that suggests he was born elsewhere.

---

Well the fact is that Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos is from a Sao Tome e Principe Family , Jose Eduardo dos Santos was born in Sao Tome e Principe and then they immigrated to Angola. You must realize that in those days people could travel freely between portuguese colonies. Today Mister JES has an army of bureucrats in Angola running the countries adminitration and reporting dirrectly to him, they are from Sao Tome e Principe and Cabo Verde. Going back he is and was Born in Sao Tome e Principe this is a well known "secret" there is a joke in Luanda that he found a young angolan boy and robed his passport.

If there were some sort of documented evidence that JES was born in Sao Tome or that there are many people who believe that he is not born there then that information could be included in something like a "controversy" section of the page. The academic world believes that he is an Mbundu born in Luanda. So it would not be right to change the article because you know a "well known secret". There are people who still believe that the world is flat but when you look up Earth it describes it as being round but gives attention to the fact that there are people who truly believe that it is flat. So, if the information is going to be on the page, we need to know who believes it and what their grounds are for believing it and some sort of documentation, a website or book or something. I am not trying to be difficult but to be fair. --Nathan Holland 00:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

---

To say that Mr. dos Santos was born in Sao Tomé e Princípe has got to be the biggest piece of crap I have ever read. Nathan Holland seems to be a person with a vivid and useless imagination. Mascal4 14:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Nathan Holland, PHD in Angolan MPLA Propaganda

Nathan Holland, PHD in Angolan MPLA Bullshit

You seem to know shit about Angola, and you seem the "know" something about angola when in fact you know jack shit about Angola, where have you got the idea that just because you whent to Angola once apon a time, know you know something about Angola, I can tell you you know jack ass nothing what so ever about Angola so please keep you part time job at Wolf Camera, and leave the MPLA propaganda out of wikipedia, you are playing with the lives of people you are playing whit a nation you know nothing about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.7.252.130 (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

I am sorry if I have upset you 195.7.252.130. I completely agree with you, there is no place for MPLA propaganda in wikipedia. . It is hard to have an article about the President of the MPLA party and have no MPLA bias. It is not a place for UNITA propaganda either. That is where wikipedia needs your help. If the article is biased towards one side or the other you can constructively point it out on the talk pages before making controversial edits. I also have no doubt that you know a great deal more about Angola than I do. I don't want to sound like an Angola know it all. In fact, people like you can teach us alot. In my search to find information about Sao Tome I have learned quite a bit actually. I hope we can keep up a positive conversation.

I have never actually added anything to the JEDS page. I have only reverted edits on it. There seem to be several things that you have added in your edits that have been reverted by me or others. Here are a few of my thoughts on them.

• JEDS was born in Sao Tome: I have found some documentation that says that JEDS might be from Sao Tome so I will include that as a footnote.
• Changing Jonas Savimbi to Dr. Jonas Savimbi: this seems to be a fairly common way to refer to him so I see no problem with that.
• "unelected" when referring to the president: It is hardly conventional to refer to a president as an "elected" president, it is just assumed. Likewise, to say unelected president every time he is referred to is just silly. later in the article it talks about elections and how neither candidate had the required 50% of the votes. It is my understanding the Savimbi was not willing to wait for a runoff. So by default the current candidate in power stayed in power and the country went back to war.
• calling JEDS a dictator: No comment

I am going to add the footnote about Sao Tome and Dr. Jonas Savimbi as well as a couple of other things that you added in various revisions. Others may decide to revert them. As far as I can remember this will be the first time I have added anything to this page. I am not wanting to make enemies here so after these edits I am going to retire from this page and I wont edit it or revert your edits anymore. Again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

--Nathan Holland 07:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

MPLA Angola Elections Fraud

The elections where a farce with the independent international observers personally witnessing the large scale of fraud committed by the regime apparatus of Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos dictator of Angola. The independent International observers witnessed and took pictures and video recordings of large amounts of Dr. Jonas Malleiro Savimbi casted votes placed in the floor of local airport hangers which where never accounted for. Never the less how can it possible the unelected brutal and criminal regime of the MPLA gain any form of majority if the MPLA is hatred by all and singular. (Source: Enrico Gervasoni independent international observer to the elections) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.7.252.130 (talk) 01:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I asked a few political parties in Angola why they allowed to fake results to go ahead. They replied that the MPLA was ready to send troops to kill any and all civilians who disagree. The same tactic the MPLA applied in Zimbabwe when it sent 1500 troops to Zimbabwe, and now to Ivory Coast where it sent 300 troops.

Your sincerely, et... Rui Gabirro —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.222.115.238 (talk) 15:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Angola Elections Fraud - No it is just a MIRACLE

No not realy after 37 years straight continuosly in power they have 80% of the Votes. It is indeed a MIRACLE. How can they do it, it is simply a MIRACLE!

It just takes a look at the news forums of Angolan news sites to see the state of dispeze that the population feels towards the Highly Currupt and incompetent Communist Regime of the unelecteed MPLA. For example this forum among many others: http://club-k.net/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabirro (talk • contribs) 00:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos Birth Place

The place of birth is fictional, Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos is son of mother and father from Sao Tome e Principe an independent island state. Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos speaks no native language of Angola nor of neighbouring countries. Further more there is no documentation nor has Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos ever produced any proof of his birth also Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos has no native name that could indicate to be a member of a certain native nation.

Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos has been asked publicly many times to inform where about he comes from. Also it is very unlikely that Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos passed is childhood in Angola as we would had to speak a native language like everyone else in Luanda and Angola.

So I hope that Wikipedia will not allow its self to permit that some of its collaborators start issuing birth certificates to African Dictators.

Yours sincerely, etc... Rui Gabirro —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.222.115.238 (talk) 15:43, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

As mentioned before, you need to find sources for your claims, which are undermined by vandalism such as this. Even your wording above is speculative - "very unlikely". Find reliable sources and the changes can go in - repeatedly edit warring, posting on my talk page or on this talk page isn't helpful. Greenman (talk) 16:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Place of Birth

It is clear that the Place of Birth of Comrade Jose Eduardo dos Santos is Sao Tome e Principe birth Place of both his Parents. No records exist of the Birth Place of the Dictator of the MPLA Regime, but one thing is for sure, he was not born in Angola soil! Had he been he would be prone to have learned to comunicate in at least Kimbundo, but untill now the Kimbundo People are awaiting for him to say that he is Kimbundo, how can he be if he is from Sao Tome e Principe.

Happy New year, not so happy for the people that live under the MPLA Regime.

Sincerely and Truly yours, etc..., etc...

Rui Gabirro — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabirro (talk • contribs) 00:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Gabirro, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and requires reliable sources, not just "it is clear" :) Greenman (talk) 08:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

User:Bet2008

User Bet2008 is vandalizing the page can some one step in and put the brakes on this individual.

Has he is going on bragging that there is no references. Which they have been given, then he goes on and claims they are not enough.

Never the less it seems ok to state the Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos, which by the way has no Birth Certificate, it is of to him that Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos was born in Luanda, this is totally false. Also there is no records of Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos attending any primary school in Luanda.

So lets not jump and issue Birth Certificates to people just like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabirro (talk • contribs) 19:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

MPLA Regime Vote Rigging

MPLA Vote Rigging on the elections of September 29 and September 30, 1992

Vote-rigging was widespread in the recent Angolan election, where the ruling MPLA party was expected to win by a landslide, Enrico Gervasoni an EU observer said. Unaccounted votes of Dr. Savimbi where found on the floor of Aircraft Hangers and clear actions of vote rigging were noticeable throughout the election process.

2008 MPLA Vote Rigging

LUANDA, Angola, Sept. 8 (UPI) -- Vote-rigging was widespread in the recent Angolan election, where the ruling MPLA party was expected to win by a landslide, an EU observer said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabirro (talk • contribs) 09:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Greenman

Are you on the Pay Roll of the Dictator Jose Eduardo dos Santos?

If not why are you placing the Sao Tome Born Dictator with a clear violation of Wikipedias rules on verifiable content. No one known in "angola" where this sun of both Parents of Sao tome Island was born what they know is that he was not born in "angola" but apparantly you seem to have seen the unexistant birth certificate of the Dictator.

Also it is very suspicious and shows what kind of a individual you are not by not having the balls of placing your real name.

The world is a sad and remains more ignorant and misinformed ny individuals such as you.

Sincerely and yours truly, etc..., etc....

Rui Gabirro — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabirro (talk • contribs) 23:00, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Pedrosal67, 7 April 2011

There was no assassination attempt. It is also unheard of for dos Santos to go to the beach with his family. He also travels with a sizeable motorcade. This section is ridiculous and should be removed. Below is the section:

Assassination attempt

José Eduardo dos Santos escaped an assassination attempt on 24 October 2010 when a vehicle tried to intercept his car as he was returning from the beach with his family. His escort opened fire killing two passengers in the vehicle, and weapons were found on board.

Pedrosal67 (talk) 22:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

 Not done It is sourced, please gain a consensus for removal. Woody (talk) 19:25, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

An exercise in logic: a President survives an assassination attempt. One dubious media page reports it and makes it a pay-to-read article. No international press reports it. No national press reports it. And you inform it is "sourced". Please then consider the sole source: africaintelligence.com which is inaccessible to all those who do not pay for the story. I think in this case it would be worthwhile examining the source to establish its reliability. It is not a contentious issue, it is not politically laden. It is simply a question of continuing to publish something which is indisputably wrong.

Pedrosal67 (talk) 14:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The wording of the source is "believed to have escaped", and it's the only mention I can find of this assassination attempt. I agree if this is the only source that can be found, the claim cannot remain, and at the very least the wording needs to change to reflect the original source. Greenman (talk) 11:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

In principle I do not share Pedrosal67's objections to the source, West African News, but I agree that an incident of this importance would inevitably have been reported by a whole array of sources. I have thus transferred this doubtful information to a footnote. Aflis (talk) 17:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Pedrosal67, 7 April 2011

On allegations that dos Santos and his family have amassed a considerable personal fortune: First, this is awfully written. Second, there are no sources. His daughter has been named the most powerful woman in Portugal in the press. The gist of the article though is very clearly loaded to imply theft. I think it could not only be written in a better manner, but also that it should have some fact reference or at least "allegedly" brought in. Below is the text: José Eduardo dos Santos and his family have amassed a significant personal fortune. The actual value is unknown, but in recent years his daughter Isabel dos Santos, who manages the family fortune, has e.g. made multi-million dollar investments in Portugal, such as the purchase of the Vale do Lobo Resort in Algarve.

Pedrosal67 (talk) 23:04, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I concur--this is probably true, if we look at Isabel dos Santos, she seems to have invested in many businesses, but there's no clear indication that they have a "family fortune". Since this is a borderline contentious issue, I think that WP:BLP implies and the information has to be removed rather than just tagged as needing a citation, so it's out. Anyone who can source the claims is welcome to re-add it. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am very much surprised: the issue may be contentious, but the facts are not contested, neither in Angola nor in Portugal. In both countries the press again and again publishes details. Right this moment I don't have the time, but I shall introduce a few sources later today. Aflis (talk) 09:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC) PS: On afterthought, I have come to the conclusion the introduction of sources on this issue would be redundant, as a series of relevant references can be found in the article on Isabel dos Santos. Some of these references explicitly mention what in Angola and Portugal is public knowledge, i.e. that the fortune she manages is family fortune.

external links

The last external link, titled "International Criminal Court against José Eduardo dos Santos" suggests that the ICC is pressing charges against dos Santos. However the link is not to the official homepage of the ICC but to an opposition website from the secessionist province of Cabinda. I would either delete the link or rename it properly so as not to give a false impression. Also the second link should be provided with a better title than "José Eduardo dos Santos The Truth". I would suggest "Accusations by the Federation of Free States of Africa" or delete it, as the "Federation of Free States of Africa" does not seem very prominent (e.g. there is no wikipedia entry on them). Thanks. 141.23.45.30 (talk) 10:21, 13 September 2011 (UTC)Christian

 Done — Bility (talk) 16:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The criminal case: International Criminal Court against José Eduardo dos Santos was sent to the Hague and a letter concerning the matter was received. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabirro (talk • contribs) 23:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from LikeLakers2, 29 September 2011

Please remove {{pp-semi-blp|small=yes}} from line 1, and replace it with {{pp-dispute}}, please. Thanks. LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 21:36, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Some Wikipedia "Contributors" giving the Dictator Jose Eduardo dos Santos an Engineer Degree in Petroleum

Some Wikipedia "Contributors" giving the Dictator Jose Eduardo dos Santos an Engineer Degree in Petroleum

This section is taken out from the propaganda web page of the MPLA Peoples Party (Communist Party). Looking at the dates there is no chance that Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos could have gone to Russia for a Oil Engineer Degree. Also the MPLA official web page does not mentions any such degree as well. Taking into consideration that this would be considered a major achievement it seems odd to say the least that the MPLA Comrades Totalitarian Party have "forgotten" to mention this intellectual and academic achievement of their murderous and deep ignorant leader.

But in wikipedia from (night to day) "voila" Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos (a son of a Sao Tome brick layer) could not have gone to Russia or Timbuktu for a degree, as it was economical impossible to him to afford such studies.

People in Angola who are still alive knew personally this communist and murderous pig, as having only two shirts and only a couple of suits, how could this criminal afford to go to Russia for his Engineer degree, and if he had been there and made his degree (3 to 4 years minimum) then there is no time in the description of his activities and exiled years in Congo Brazzaville.

From the MPLA Web Site: "Após a eclosão da luta contra a ocupação colonial, em 4 de Fevereiro de 1961, José Eduardo dos Santos, então com 19 anos, abandonou em Novembro desse mesmo ano o país e passou a coordenar no exterior a actividade da Juventude do MPLA(organismo de que é um dos fundadores). Integrou em 1962 o EPLA (Exército Popular de Libertação de Angola), participando na preparação das condições para a abertura da 2ª Região Político-Militar. Em 1963 foi o primeiro representante do MPLA em Brazzaville/ Congo. Nesse mesmo país, depois de terminados os seus estudos superiores, frequentou durante um ano um curso Militar de Telecomunicações, que o habilitou a exercer, de 1970 a 1974, sucessivamente as funções de Operador do Centro Principal de Comunicações da Frente Norte e Responsável-adjunto dos Serviços de Telecomunicações na 2ª Região Político-Militar do MPLA (Cabinda). Em 1974, José Eduardo dos Santos é designado membro da Comissão Provisória de Reajustamento da Frente Norte, responsável das Finanças da 2ª Região, e desempenha novamente as funções de Representante do MPLA em Brazzaville, até Junho de 1975."

http://web.archive.org/web/20100828013436/http://www.mpla-angola.org/opresidente.php

So lets hope that common sense sinks in, and that we can see what is obvious, and lets not allow the good nature on which the Wikipedia project was founded and based to be a place where totalitarian communist regimes use this space and wikipedia inadvertently is perceived as a tool to validate their Regimes, we therefore as freemen and humans, we must not allow this space to be used with the aim to prize this (or other) criminal murderous Communist Dictator.

May the light of wisdom illuminate our minds,

Rui Gabirro --Gabirro (talk) 09:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

100% Anti Communist

gabirro@gmail.com

We are now offering degrees on Wikipedia, lets give him now an MBA as well

The following is on the so called Greek web site of the MPLA Regime embassy in Greece.

Oddly enough it is not in Greek but conveniently in English. Lets see what it says:

"He was awarded a scholarship in 1963 to study in the Soviet Union where he received a degree in petroleum engineering. Upon graduation in 1969, he stayed in the Soviet Union to continue his studies in Communications."

Oddly enough I went to the so called webpage and placed the link on the internet Archive site and "voilà" the page is a recent addition to that site in fact so recent that the internet Archive site had no record of it so the first record it now as is from today and here is the link for perpetuity. http://liveweb.archive.org/http://www.angolanembassy.gr/English/BIOGRAPHY.htm

DATES DON'T ADD UP

So they say that he went to Russia in 1963-1969. But hold on for a minute haven't they said in the Comrades MPLA Party that he went to Brazzaville.

Then they say that he staid in Russia to finish is studies in communication from 1969 to 1970? Hold on how can he finish is studies in something so when did he started?

"Now lets see what the MPLA Party web site says: Em 1963 foi o primeiro representante do MPLA em Brazzaville/ Congo. Nesse mesmo país, depois de terminados os seus estudos superiores, frequentou durante um ano um curso Militar de Telecomunicações, que o habilitou a exercer, de 1970 a 1974"

It says that he went to Brazzaville, Congo then in that same country he finished is superior studies (please note that this superior studies imply and refer to high school) then he went to make a telecommunication course, which allowed him to work as a telecommunication operator from 1970 to 1974. We are now very confused so we never went to make a communication's course if he started in 1970.

Rui Gabirro--94.6.84.207 (talk) 09:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

100% Anti Communist

gabirro@gmail.com

Edit request on 28 November 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Dos Santos' origins have been made pretty contentious. Previously this article had him as being from Sao Tome e Principe. Now his parents were "immigrants from São Tomé and Príncipe" and a source is sited. The source reference only cites his parents' names. Again, the article adds continuity.

Pedrosal67 (talk) 19:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

This is in fact a controversial point. Thus, if User:Pedrosal67 is able to produce a reliable source which allows us to establish JES' origin beyond doubt, I am entirely in favour of granting his request. -- Aflis (talk) 21:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

José Eduardo dos Santos unknown to residents of Luanda, no memory of him exists!!!

I am posting this part here has it is systematically removed from the main article page. It seems that the communist collaborators and ignorance will prevail over what is the TRUTH and what is obvious.--Gabirro (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The Unknown President

The population of Angola don't know who Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos is. In this respect Angolan intellectuals, Angolan parliamentarians such as Dr Makuta Nkondo and International Human Rights Activist have denounced this issue. In this regard the Angolan Raper "Brigadeiro 10 Pacotes" issued a video music stating that in Luanda and in Angola no one knows who Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos, and in the neighbourhoods where he supposedly grew up no body know him either

The Angolan music artists known as "Tribo Sul" issued a rap music track stating that Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos is not Angolan, which is a open secret in Angola. We therefore call for common sense and request that the misleading information portraying Mr. Jose Eduardo dos Santos as Born in Luanda etc... as total fabrication and of bad taste, and misleading. --Gabirro (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Halloween massacre

I agree that this is an important fact. However, its place is not in this article. It does not make sense to put the whole contemporary history of Angola in an article about one person, even if it is a key figure. It belongs either in the history section of the "Angola" article, or in the "History of Angola" article (or in both). The same holds, by the way, true for the "Jonas Savimbi" article, where much is general history, or then UNITA history. If I find the time and "paciência", I shall do some reorganizing. -- Aflis (talk) 17:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Well he is leader of the forces who committed a crime comparable to Srebrenica, so i think it should be mentioned as it is probably the most significant event of his rule and his forces did the crime. Also it should definitely be mentioned regarding the 1992 elections as the massacre was done partially as a consequence of the election results. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.218.145 (talk) 20:08, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Three things: (a) The massacre was important, but the numbers given in the text are totally out of proportion. Even serious UNITA sources would not go that far. (b) While in Srebenica we had the personal responsibility of a commander, in Angola we had a "regime decision" by the MPLA, a decidedly more complex "decision making process". (c) In any case, this is part of the contemporary history of the country, and belongs in the article where that history is told. -- Aflis (talk) 20:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

There should be a mention here even if they he had no responsibility. His forces did the massacre. Also the numbers are not out of proportion. Most sorces say 15,000 UNITA dead. Why can't it be mentioned on this page contemporary history pages as well. The way it has been written on this page doesn't assert his responsibility in the incident, it just mentions that as result of the elections he won, the incident occurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.215.191 (talk) 23:56, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such its logic is (and has to be) to avoid overlapping of articles, in other words, the repetition of the same information in more than one article. The fact that some contributors don't respect this rule contributes to the flaws of Wikipedia, diminishing its quality. - As to numbers: yes, I know what some sources say, but then we are, all of us, under the obligation to assess critically the reliability of the sources we use. - Finally: is there a reason why you remain anonymous and don't sign your contributions?-- Aflis (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with mentioning the massacre. It is probably the most significant event recently in Angola and during his presidency. What is wrong with repeating this tiny bit of info on Angola's page or this page. There is more information than just that overlapping on this and Angola's page. 88.104.215.191 (talk)