Talk:Adelphopoiesis

Re: Saints Sergius and Bacchus

This article could be improved with the inclusion of an image. There is a c. 7th Century image which, it has been suggested by Boswell et. al., shows the Adelphopoiesis of Saints Sergius and Bacchus. In other words, it may show marriage or something analogous to marriage - though this view is not uncontested.

Unfortunately, as a Novice Wikipedian, I have no no idea how to get an image into the article (my eyes really hurt after 8 solid hours of trying) and this image is found no where in Wikipedia Commons. Any guidance anyone?

When I learn how to upload this image, which already exists on the Wikipedia entry for the aforementioned saints, I will do so, assuming that the author(s) of this article on Adelphopoiesis feel it's appropriate. Otherwise I won't.

Hail True Body 16:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Historical Information

Is there any historical accounts of this practice? There should surely be some writings about it.

There seems to be very little amounting to the history -- not even a date range. All it is about is some bloke going on pedantically about the translation of the term. 86.134.152.135 22:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems the article spends more time refuting Boswell than it does supporting any scholarly research into what it actually was. --Eddylyons (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Hostile Tone

This now has a hostile against the hypothesis that it's analogues to same sex marriage. Changes like "historian" to "gay activist" is undermining language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.237.170 (talk) 21:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The "thesis" section is highly critical of Boswell's work, and doesn't even resemble a neutral tone. This section is really an extension of the "Criticism" section, and a proper "thesis" section needs to be written. I might be able to get to it next week (as this is something I actually know something about for once), but in the mean time, I'm going to stick a NPOV tag for the whole page, as it appears to have all been written with a strong anti-gay bias. --~WarrenSensei 13:20, 13 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarrenSensei (talk • contribs)

To be sure, many scholars and reviewers are hostile to Boswell's thesis -- because of the bad scholarship he uses to support it. However, to claim that the criticisms are "written with a strong anti-gay bias" is utterly anachronistic. A "gay" identity did not exist during the periods under consideration in Boswell's book. As Boswell himself notes, "neither St. Paul nor his readers had any concept of 'homosexuality' as a sexual identity" ('Same Sex Unions', p. 220, n.4). The outrage and hostility, as far as I can see, are directed at Boswell's mistranslations and tendentious arguments -- and it is not exactly surprising to see careful scholars and experts respond in this fashion. Furthermore, to claim that people have a problem with Boswell's (apparently willful) errors because they are "anti-gay" is simply an argumentum ad hominem. Even if such people are "anti-gay", their criticisms of Boswell's book may nonetheless be quite correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.231.110 (talk) 21:42, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The preceding remark illustrates precisely the sort of hostile and arrogant attitude towards Boswell that characterises this article, presumably from a heterosexual man with insufficient understanding of human nature. In case you hadn't realised it, homosexuality is an affective and erotic disposition existing across cultures (and across species). Homosexuality as such never can be an anachronism, although certainly gay identity changes with time and has been variously suppressed. For us who are gay, homosexuality is nothing less than ontological. Of course rites of adelphopoiesis are implicated in homosexuality. It is a question of anthropology and, I would say, of ontology. These unions might indeed have involved genital expression of some kind (not necessarily sodomy by the way); that cannot be excluded, unless on some flimsy and very dualistic notion that they were purely "spiritual" (what a platitude). The "outrage and hostility" about Boswell's conclusions really is a disinclination to believe that homosexuality is normal and natural--in this age and every age. And that I find frankly pathetic.

I just wanna say

I just wanna say that Adelphopoiesis is not similair to gay marriage. I see it as a parallel to the sworn-brotherhood, or anda in Mongol culture.

Well don't, this isn't the place to debate that. Especially if youare n't going ot sign your posts.Kairos 08:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The article shouldn't say that there is homosexual romance involved in Adelphopoiesis unless they can prove that. Christians believe that homosexual sex is an abomination.--69.234.200.106 (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Although Kairos is right, shouldn't the article be changed to avoid being biased toward the view Adelphopoiesis is gay marriage?--69.234.208.72 (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this might have been practiced by the Russian Orthodox Church centuries ago, but to say that it was a form of homosexual marriage seems ludicrous and I'm sure is quite offensive to believers. 24.4.205.124 (talk)

If you read the article carefully you'll see that it doesn't say that it was a form of homosexual marriage. It does however discuss several different interpretations of the rite, proposed by various scholars.--rossb (talk) 18:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, fine. The point is that this article is mainly devoted to one very specific interpretation, namely adelphopoiesis as a sexual union according to John Boswell, rather than adelphopoiesis as such. To me this seems like a very extreme and controversial view that should be no more than a footnote in the main article. Perhaps, a separate article "Adelphopoiesis as a sexual union" should be written. 24.4.205.124 (talk) 05:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The article goes into too much detail explaining only one interpretation. There should be more details concerning the criticisms and alternative interpretations. They should be more accessible to the casual reader. --76.115.63.120 (talk) 03:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

John Henry Newman and Ambrose St. John

Some gay activists, such as Peter Thatchell, have argued that John Henry Newman was gay because of his friendly relationship with Ambrose St. John. However, given Newman's resolute advocacy of Catholic clerical celibacy, it would certainly be more prudent to characterize this as a latter-day form of adelphopoiesis, just a spiritual relationship between two very Christian men. One could even argue that Newman was homophobic, since he held the pro-chastity epistles of St. Paul and other scriptures to be inerrant, and since he was quite likely a sacerdotal virgin, which in itself indicates a hostility to all forms of sex and related sins. ADM (talk) 02:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Disconnect general article on the term from Boswell's work

This article should be reorganized so that there is a general section at the top about the term and practice, followed by sections about the various scholarly opinions on the topic. At currently written, this article is really an article about one scholar's work on the subject. That is not a neutral discussion of the headword.

TraceySwans (talk) 14:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

done TMLutas (talk) 19:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree, this article should be first and foremost about the practice itself - it's obvious the practice existed - with historical documentation and analysis which may include a controversy section to briefly describe the modern day disputes concerning the practice, leaving the bulk of Boswell's et al work on the practice documented on their respective wiki pages accessed by links in this article. 184.17.119.170 (talk) 05:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)