Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 30

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Game log readability

So I was browsing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Boston_Red_Sox_season and I noticed the show text next to each season of the game log is terribly hard to read (I literally spent a solid minute trying to figure out how to see the details). It isn't just that one either, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_Yankees_season is unreadable too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.85.199.242 (talk) 13:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

There was a discussion on the ice hockey project talk page about changing the header to have a uniform, more legible background colour, with a thick colour line beneath that would differentiate between teams. I think this is a good approach to balance legibility with team individuality. isaacl (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I wish there were a free, legit way to access The Sporting News' 100+ yrs of digital archives to help with article expansion.

I haven't looked for a way for about a year now, so if you have a source that legitimately provides these archives for free (or significantly cheaper!) would be most appreciated. This is less for me and more for everyone that contributes to WikiProject Baseball. I wish there were a way for us all to have free access, as references, while plentiful on google news search, don't even come close to the depth of coverage I found in one particular newspaper that used to be free online.

A few years ago, PaperOfRecord.com, the site that held over 100 years of newspapers of The Sporting News, stopped being a free service and started charging a fee. They want $13 per month or $71 per year. Since I have a fascination with 1950s and 60s baseball and also hated it when AFDs were presented on the grounds that the player had no significant coverage or that an assertion of notability from a player/manager in like the 1920s was 'fake' because they couldn't find a source when TSN archives proved otherwise, I had to get access to the archives. It was an incredibly vital source for my goal of expanding articles of baseball players from the 1950s and 1960s from being more than just small footnotes in history that simply recited how many years they played and what their triple crown stats were.

Because of my dedication to expanding articles of my interest, I joined SABR, the Society for American Baseball Research. One of their benefits is that PaperOfRecord gives every SABR member free access to The Sporting News archives. Since I'm still under 30 years old, membership is $45 per year. That saves almost 40% over just buying it straight from the website, and SABR includes a ton of other stuff to make it worth it for those serious about baseball research. Ages 30-64, unfortunately, raise the price to $65, making it just a $6 difference but still giving you all the benefits and resources at SABR's disposal. I am in no way spamming people or begging them to go out and join SABR since I know there's no way in hell most people here will blow that much cash just to have access to some old newspapers and expand articles on Wikipedia. I am only offering them a solution for that small chance that they desperately want access to the TSN archives as much as I did late last year. I have my reasons for needing this. I'm writing these articles of about 180 specific players for personal reasons mentioned on my userpage.

I still intend to remain with SABR even if there is a legitimate, free way to access The Sporting News online archives. I wish I could write articles at a faster rate than, like, one per year, but real life has been taxing lately, and it can be compounded with the fact that I always know literally nothing about the player before I write his article. I just want others to have more free resources so they can more easily expand articles on baseball players. Let's at least please try to get some Stubs up to C-Class articles, like this article I expanded of Milt Bolling a while back that I'm sure looks like a mess since I am absolutely terrible when it comes to prose, but it looks a hell of a lot better than it did before expansion.

For baseball article writers, especially of players of 50+ years ago, I have a few free sources listed that cover 1885-1920 (Baseball Magazine and Sporting Life (magazine) and 1942-2009 (Baseball Digest) at User:Vodello#Digitally Archived Magazines and Newspapers to expand baseball player articles that can help. If you have any more free reliable sources from old baseball/sports magazines and newspapers, please let me know. I only just recently found out about the LA84 Foundation's efforts to archive Baseball Magazine and Sporting Life. While they haven't been as useful to me as TSN was, I did find a writeup or two of players in the first decade of the 1900s that would've otherwise been pretty much impossible to find. Boston Beaneaters, Boston Doves, Brooklyn Superbas, or Brooklyn Bridegrooms fans might find this to be a great resource after all! Who knows?? Losing The Sporting News as a free resource for editors was a huge blow. I also wish there was free access to the New York Times archives. I think I have to purchase a newspaper subscription or some crap like that. I'm already in this for $45, so I'd rather just take my chances with whatever pops up for free on Google News, Google Books, and the TSN archives.

Anyway, I hope the resource list I have on my page helps at least one person that has a baseball article to expand or create. We's gots to gets more articles fixed up around heres. If my math doesn't suck too much today, only 6.1% of baseball articles excluding lists are rated C-Class or higher. Breaks my heart. I know it's easier to delete than it is to create (certainly leads to a lot more barnstars for some), but let's see if we can get that number up to 10% by year's end. No player deserves to be a stub for all eternity. Ah well, at least SABR has some cool stuff. Gonna suck when I turn 30 in 2014 though. Agent Vodello^{OK, Let's Party, Darling!} 17:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:HighBeam is a huge help, free to Wikipedians that been in the project for over one year an 1000 edits. Mostly covers post 1986 so it's good for players who played after those years. I been trying to get free access to Paper of Record in Wikipedia, but they seemed uninterested, but considering the success of the HighBeam project we could give them or SABR a shot. Secret ^account 14:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

2012 Major League Baseball season‎#Milestones

I could use a little help with this cruft section and some stubborn editors. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Stubborn? I have doing these edits for over three years and have never had any complaints in the previous years adding things until this year... I just want to know why the interest to limit "milestones", even though they are legit... --posty (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiData

For those that haven't heard, the WikiData project aims to create a knowledge base for various data. I think it'd be useful to have WikiProject Baseball consider using it in the future. Potential uses could be to contain records of each game played, which can then be transcluded automatically into the relevant season articles for each team; or batting, pitching, and fielding data for players, which can then be transcluded into player article infoboxes (or elsewhere). This could also be used to replicate or mirror Baseball Reference and Retrosheet data. This will be a long-term project, as WikiData is still in development. Thoughts? Mindmatrix 16:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

article suggestion

Might be worth having a List of Major League Baseball hitters with six hits in one game article (the name mirrors List of Major League Baseball hitters with four home runs in one game). The list is only about 5 times longer [1] so is pretty impressive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by O18 (talk • contribs) 20:33, April 20, 2012‎

Since there is an MLB.com page for it, it might be worthy of its own article. We'd need to find more sources to back it up, though. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

In the article, List of Major League Baseball hit records, there is a section listing players with 7 hits in one game.Orsoni (talk) 04:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

There's no clear reason why it uses 7. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

7 is the magic number for hits in a game. It's only happened twice in a nine-inning game - once by Wilbert Robinson, 120 years ago; and once by Rennie Stennett, of all people, in a 1975 game I remember all too well... possibly the most humiliating defeat ever suffered by the Cubs.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:42, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

But I don't see how that makes seven the number. 700 home runs has only happened three times, yet we still care about the 500 home run club. The MLB.com source giving weight to six hits in a game is more convincing to me than the fact that seven has happened twice. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Only create an article if multiple sources have discussed the grouping per WP:LISTN.—Bagumba (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Featured list reviewers needed

Hi, all. I have two pages nominated at WP:FLC right now relating to baseball, and they are languishing while waiting for reviewers. Can somebody please check out List of New York Yankees owners and executives and/or List of Major League Baseball player–managers and make any comments? Thanks. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion

Talk:Heinie Meine#Requested move could use some input. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 07:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Outline Page

I can't find any references to it within the project (maybe I'm not looking in the right spot), but there is a draft of an Outline of Baseball here. I'd like to see this page on the main Wikipedia section, but right now it has "Draft" status. Can fixing it be added to the "Tasks" on the front page of the Project? Listmeister (talk) 20:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've never understood the fascination with these outlines. Frankly, it is simply a far less useful and much harder to maintain article version of Category:Baseball. Resolute 18:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Visiting Category:Baseball may be a good way for some readers or editors to begin "work". For many of us and some kinds of work, a better point of entry must be the

entire (baseball) Category hierarchy.

Do we have a tool that displays the hierarchy below any given category? ...

Here it is: Category tree Baseball (JavaScript required)

--P64 (talk) 23:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Standardize Won/Loss Colors

Please see Template_talk:Table_cell_templates#Standardize_Won.2FLoss_Colors. --ben_b (talk) 19:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Recent changes?

Is there a way to track recent changes for only baseball articles? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Baseball#External_links—Bagumba (talk) 21:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 22:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up!

That works for other WikiProjects too, and gets copied to my user space. --P64 (talk) 22:03, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Copied to your user space, what does that mean? Sorry, I'm still new to all of this. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 22:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, That was a rare edit conflict for me, nothing but two people saying Thanks! User:Bagumba should feel good.

Visit User:P64 and you'll see that I have copied that URL near the top of my wikipedia homepage, along with a few others that are useful for my own quick reference. My user space is poorly organized with material such as this scattered across the tops of too many subpages (which may also be poorly organized in other ways :-(

Therefore visit the three extraordinary compilations that I recommend.

AutomaticStrikeout, you are not new this month :-) but WP:USER may yet be useful. --P64 (talk) 23:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, I get easily confused by some of this technical stuff, but I think I get the general idea of how to check recent edits for specific categories. Thanks for the help! AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 23:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Robert Pender article

Not sure if he merits an article. Thought I'd get your input. He played for 20 seasons in the minor leagues, from 1886 to 1907 and managed at that level for nine years. He led the Baton Rouge Red Sticks to a league championship in 1903 and the Norfolk Tars to a league championship in 1907. Following his playing career, he umpired throughout the minors. Here are some articles that might constitute solid coverage: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. There are more too, if you look up "Captain Pender" and "Dad Pender," two monikers he went by. This article says he was the best third baseman in the Interstate League ever. He has some coverage in this book [8]. What say you? Alex (talk) 22:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

While most of the coverage was from a single source of the Youngstown Vindicator newspaper, making me wary of the requirement for multiple sources of significant coverage in WP:GNG, his frequent mention in the book makes him notable enough for me. And this is only based on the sources you listed here with no further searches. Thanks for posting this.—Bagumba (talk) 23:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess I agree with Bagumba. I certainly appreciate that in the case of an individual who may or may not be notable, you brought it here for discussion before creating it. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

numerical milestone categories

I have nominated Category:300 saves club and Category:500 home run club for deletion here. Note that I am not at all proposing the deletion of the lists 300 saves club and 500 home run club. Those are much better vehicles for providing the numerical accomplishments, as they provide context and numerical precision. Your feedback is welcome.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

(500 home run club is a regular article, not a List.)

One big difference between the articles home run#See also and Save (baseball)#See also is that the former includes a list of links to homerun-related lists (See also, linked here). Whatever FROBBY-related lists do exist ist probably should be linked to the main article FROBBY at See also; same for -related articles such as "500 home run club". Cross-references would be overkill but one back-reference would be appropriate: eg, one link back to Home run#See also (or a subsection of See also) in See also for each homerun-related list. --P64 (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no "see also" to 300 save club, but there is a navbox {{300 save club}} in Save (baseball).—Bagumba (talk) 05:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

"300 save club" does include section 300 save club#See also, which links two saves-related lists. My suggestion is that the every saves-related page (all saves lists and some other pages) should See also [[Save (baseball)#See also |Save-related articles]], which section of the main article should maintain links to all saves-related lists.

Save (baseball)#See also currently links only one saves-related list article, one of the two that "300 save club" Sees also.

In contrast, Home run#See also currently links 13 homerun-related lists and articles (no categories, i think). But no longer in contrast to saves, 500 home run club#See also links only three particular homerun-related pages and does not link back to "Home run#See also". --P64 (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

We should all be embarrassed

In April 2012, Portal:Baseball was viewed 1,663 times. In the same time period, Portal:Justin Bieber was viewed 4,417 times. I've noticed that a lot of our high profile pages (3,000 hit club, Hank Aaron, Bryce Harper, Cliff Lee, etc.) don't link to the portal. I linked a bunch of them to the portal, but could use your help in adding {{Portal|Baseball}} to more of our pages. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:32, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

So far this is working. The Baseball portal has almost as many views through half of May as it got for all of April. Suck it, Bieber! Still have to do more to catch his portal, though. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:56, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Advice about this article?

Hi,

I've been working on this article, John Adams (drummer), for about the past month and I'd like a little of your feedback. It's about one of the handful of dedicated, notable fans of baseball, and I think it's a little off the beaten path from what you normally deal with at this Wikiproject. But sure you have some advice on how to make it better and how to proceed. Already I think I'm getting close to taking it GAN (it's a very small article, but it's a small topic). So think of this as an informal peer review. Alright. Thanks -- Bobnorwal (talk) 06:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Splitting

Is there any possibilty, the other articles on relocated MLB teams will be split, the way the Expos/Nationals are? GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I sure hope not. Spanneraol (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Because this was a discussion that needed to be re-opened, yet again? Resolute 02:36, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Well we can take care of all that drama right now by having a "one franchise, one article" policy on this, just like all the other franchise articles.--JOJ ^Hutton 03:22, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that we both know it will never happen for all of the reasons presented in over a dozen discussions that show it will never happen. But that will never stop GoodDay from trying to stir up drama, especially when he sees the same drama from the last discussion is starting to die down. Resolute 15:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Never, say never. All the MLB team articles would be sync, if it weren't for unreasonable Canadian pride from some editors. GoodDay (talk) 23:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The previous discussions have been summarized at Talk:Montreal Expos/FAQ (including a list of various MLB franchises that have separate articles for their incarnations in different cities). If you have some new arguments to raise, new light to shed upon the previous points, or suggestions that help make a given compromise more attractive by addressing its shortcomings, please do bring them forward. In the interest of saving time, however, I think it would be good to avoid rehashing the same discussion points (which you agreed with as well). isaacl (talk) 07:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I was just checking in (on April 28) to make sure there was no hope of bringing the MLB team articles in to sync. GoodDay (talk) 07:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

GoodDay, many editors have spoken on this issue on both sides on many occasions, and have expressed a whole range of thoughts and arguments. You do yourself no favours by making comments that suggest that you think you are being more reasonable than all of the other contributors over the years that have expressed an opinion that differs from yours. Making a comment like "if it weren't for unreasonable Canadian pride from some editors" is unnecessary, uncivil and contrary to WP:AGF. Knock it off.--Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't perfect, we all know that, but it's not fair to admonish other editors when they point out obvious flaws in some of Wikipedia's consensus procedures.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

My comment was absolutely fair. I would similarly expect to be admonished if I said something silly like "if it weren't for the irrational WikiProject Baseball editors". And I think you should remember that a consensus with which you disagree ≠ obvious flaw in the consensus procedure. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Article question

I was wondering if this new article is notable. I wanted to bring it here first. Penale52 (talk) 19:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, an article summarizing a very specific type of player transaction for a baseball season seems completely unnecessary - this should be merged into the transactions sections of the MLB teams' season articles. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 19:22, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Does any article include a classified or annotated list of player status types? or list of player transaction types? (Category: Baseball labor relations contains two article, designated for assignment and player to be named later.)

The answers may be yes for current types, no for historical types; may differ for status and transactions. --P64 (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I nominated the list for deletion, Wikipedia isn't a newspaper to record player transactions, especially something so common as being designated for assignment. Secret ^account 01:43, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible list

I am considering making a list of the ejections for the current MLB season, and I wanted to know if this is going to be considered notable. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 15:16, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I see no need to have such a list for the current season. Would the list of ejections for the 1940 season interest you? IF not then why do we need one for this season? No use for this at all. Spanneraol (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I see no encyclopedic rationale for documenting ejections. Just because Wikipedia can be a source of information doesn't mean it should. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 22:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

If you wanted to make an all-time list of most ejections, then I could see that passing notability (I'm surprised that's never been created). Documenting each one this season, however, certainly fails list criteria. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 22:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:LISTN should be used as a guide for list notability.—Bagumba (talk) 22:19, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Unbreakable?

There's a Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable (2nd nomination) going on right now, for anyone who feels like weighing in. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Spring Training logs again

That conversation fizzled and got archived. I want to be clear, now that the WP:RECENTISM of spring training has faded, we can delete these from articles? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

For those like me who need a refresher, here's the previous discussion. My previous comment was "the main argument to keep is because the information is correct and some editors have the energy to support it. However, I haven't seen a reason why the information is notable." No compelling arguments to keep followed.—Bagumba (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, delete these please. Spanneraol (talk) 18:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

On it. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:28, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I've deleted it from the 2012 season articles that had it (CWS, BOS, LAA) and the 2011 CWS season page as well. There may be more in 2011 and beyond, but I don't have time to keep looking and this is a start. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Regular season logs

On a side note from the Spring Training log discussion, I would even favor removing the regular season logs per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. The information is all available (and probably more accurate) via a single link to any number of external sites, and the WP article is not providing any added value of consolidating information from multiple references. IMO it just seems to be a lot of duplicate effort unless this was automated through some bot.—Bagumba (talk) 18:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not as set against these... as the regular season games are notable... However, I wouldn't miss them if they were gone... My main issue is that probably 80% of our season articles are just game logs... I wish the editors that are spending their time updating these things and various other stat tables would spend some time writing prose about the season... much better use of their time. Spanneraol (talk) 18:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Spanneraol. They're not as bad as the spring training logs, since these games actually mean something, but they detract from encyclopedic prose, and all they manage to accomplish is duplicating tables from stat websites. I don't get the point. Just like I don't get why stat pages have ridiculous "watch lists" (seriously, people update someone with 1,700 hits on the 2,000 hits page... 300 hits takes an All-Star caliber season and a half to achieve). – Muboshgu (talk) 18:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that the biggest loss is time better spent to explain what actually happened in the season when it is not obvious by just looking at logs from 162 games. I dont mind editors gaining interest in WP by starting with those types of edits, but there is otherwise little value to be gained from duplicating what is already available on an external site. Does anyone have any past experience on responses from people that were nudged?—Bagumba (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Not everyone can, or wants to write prose. People need to keep this in mind. It takes many different people doing many different kinds of things to make the wiki run. Gnomes who update stats are just as important as those who write prose. It isn't a loss of time if the editor wouldn't write prose anyways. If anything you are gaining edits from editors who wouldn't write prose to begin with. -DJSasso (talk) 19:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

True, no loss if they were never going to write pose anyways. But I wonder if that is more the case or if the editor would be willing to write pose but thinks stats are more "helpful". I guess its best to approach them one-by-one to see they are aware and interested in other (perhaps more important) tasks.—Bagumba (talk)

Yeah we couldn't know unless we asked each one individually, but I am guessing the sort of person who keeps sets of numbers up to date is a completely different type of person than would write prose. One being a logical brain type and the other being a creative brain type. I know I personally have a much harder time with prose than with fixing the ity bity gnomish stuff I take care of. If someone were to tell me my type of editing was a waste of time and that I shouldn't do it and should write prose instead I would just leave wikipedia. -DJSasso (talk) 20:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't remove them from the regular season, just because other editors choose to help the wiki in ways different than yours doesn't mean either of you aren't helping. Clearly someone looking at an article for a season of a sports team expects to see the results of the games. -DJSasso (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

That same logic would be used by Spring Training log proponents. If this was a presentation of stats in a different view or consolidated from multiple sites, someone could easier buy that it was "helping" even if they didn't like the content.—Bagumba (talk) 20:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

It's helping even if it is from a single site in that the reader doesn't have to leave Wikipedia. Even if I could find the stats elsewhere I would be greatly inconvenienced by having to go to another website to see them when I as a reader would expect them to be on the page I am currently reading. If the information is important to the article we should have it even if they information is found elsewhere. In fact the entirety of Wikipedia should be able to be found on other sites, that is sort of the point of what wikipedia does. It gathers notable information from other sources and puts it in a single place. Removing stats from a season article is effectively removing the most important information in a season article. Personally I wouldn't remove the pre-season either, but it wasn't worth getting into a debate about since it was the pre-season. However removing the regular season stats would in my opinion just be ridiculous. -DJSasso (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps my opinion is clouded by wanting to improve prose by converting time spent on stats. I will point out that the same argument to have stats without having to leave WP is inconsistent with the consensus to not have year-by-year player stats in bios. In the same vain, I actually prefer it in the player articles, but didn't think it was worth the effort of editors in the grand scheme of things and also per NOTSTATS.—Bagumba (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Game logs should only remain on page that get updated. They're not just on baseball season pages, but the NBA and NHL as well. –BuickCenturyDriver 21:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll neither argue for nor against them for WP:MLB's purposes, but speaking from my experience with the Calgary Flames season articles I write, I hate doing the game logs. I find them tedious. However, I also believe they are an important, almost central, component of the articles. Sports are defined by statistics, and it seems silly to leave the most basic and important stats out of an article and claim that our work is complete. In my case, several editors have come along and maintained the game logs and player stats, while I write the prose. I end up getting the GA credit, but the articles are a good example of Wikipedia collaboration, and it gives other editors who may not feel comfortable writing prose an avenue to positively add to the project. YMMV. Resolute 22:50, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I personally would be pleased to write more prose for the seasons I'm interested in writing about - currently only 2012 Washington Nationals season, but I'm open to expanding my interests - but I'm not certain of what should and should not be included in that prose. If someone could point me at a few examples of good-prose season articles, I can access the necessary sources for the prose. In the meantime, I'll just be a good little stats gnome :). - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:36, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Well the 2009 Philadelphia Phillies season is, I believe, our only season article that is a "Good Article" so I'd look at that one. Spanneraol (talk) 18:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, that is pretty. I like. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Template:Chicago White Sox roster

Would someone else mind intervening here? It's a small dispute, whether to list Adam Dunn as an infielder or DH. I think we've had an issue with this user (Carthage44 (talk · contribs)) before. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Bracket help

The 2012 SEC Baseball Tournament has been expanded to 10 teams from 8, so the current {{SECBracket}} won't work. I can't find a 10 team double elimination bracket template and I can't figure out how to edit the code to add another round. It will need to follow this format. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. ~ Richmond96 t • c 01:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about 10-team, but if I recall correctly, the Little League World Series uses a double-elimination system. Hope that helps. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 19:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Some one has actually created {{SECBracket2012}}, which works perfectly. I just didn't know how to get the code right. ~ Richmond96 t • c 22:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Player Statistics advice

I've been maintaining the player statistics for the 2012 Washington Nationals season. There is soon likely to be a pitcher who only has relief appearances - Chien-Ming Wang - who will be transitioned to a starting role. I'd like advice on how to represent his starting stats vs. his relief stats and his combined stats. My best current idea is to have his total stats included in the relief section, but only his stats as a starter in the starting section. But that seems unwieldy. Ideas? - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Issues like that are why I tend to just put all pitchers together in a "pitchers" category on my pages... easier to deal with and you don't have to make choices like that. Spanneraol (talk) 18:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...maybe do that and add a Games Started column...though that might be too many columns. I'll think about it and play a little in my sandbox. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Wild Card standings?

This seems like a waste of space to me... Template:2012 NL Wild Card standings Way too early to be tracking and we never included it on previous seasons. Spanneraol (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

On the one hand, I agree with you that it's too early, and tracking it is probably too much. But on the other hand, it does seem useful to have once the season is over. I'd suggest keeping it, but keeping it off of pages during the active season. Unless...does it call to the various division standings templates? If it does, such that it doesn't need to be manually updated except by updating the divisions, keep it around. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 14:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I would think its even less useful once the season is over. Just ads more clutter to the pages. Spanneraol (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

About the only way this would have long term significance is if it was a graph showing the standings throughout the year. Otherwise, it's just news.—Bagumba (talk) 22:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Succession boxes

User user:Dirtlawyer1 is deleting succession boxes that seem to have a navigational box that covers the same subject. You may or may not have already noticed this, but I thought the project would like to know. I do not have a dog in the fight, and don't have opinion on the matter.Neonblak ^talk - 20:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Clarify please? The user is only deleting succession boxes when there's a navbox that's got a built-in succession mechanism too, if I understood correctly. Are they only doing this in baseball pages, or other places as well? - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 20:21, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

While some may debate whether most succession boxes are even needed, I hope we all can agree duplicates for the same subject are redundant and not needed.—Bagumba (talk) 20:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Greetings. I just saw this discussion pop up on my watchlist. To clarify, I am only deleting succession boxes for which there is already a chronological navbox on the exact same subject (e.g. New York Yankees managers). There is no reason to have unnecessary succession box clutter when there is already a navbox. I am not deleting succession boxes for which no navbox exists (e.g. minor league managers, random awards, etc.). This has already been done throughout WP:NFL, WP:CFB and for all other college sports. Several core WP:HOCKEY editors continue to strongly prefer succession boxes over navboxes, and I leave their project's articles to their preferences. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

As long as you're confining yourself to succession boxes made redundant by other navboxes, I have no problem. Among other things, Wikipedia is not subject to the rules of the Department of Redundancy Department. :) - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 21:29, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Category:Joliet Jackhammers players

Category:Joliet Jackhammers players, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merging. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Bill Miller (umpire)

There has been some difference of opinion about the content relating to the Brett Lawrie incident. I would appreciate anyone interested in discussing it on the talk page. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 15:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

There are also some IP addresses that revert attempts to refine the text of the article. Any assistance or advice is welcome. isaacl (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, the last five IP addresses to edit this article have begun with 98.142. I could be wrong, but that seems fishy. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 03:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Hack Wilson's GA review

Does anybody want to help out by picking up the review at Talk:Hack Wilson/GA1? It's not far from passing, but the nominator, Orsoni (talk · contribs), hasn't edited on Wikipedia in a week and I don't know when (or if) he's planning on returning. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll see if I can tomorrow; hopefully a free block of time will pop up for me. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help in promoting this article to GA status while I was away on vacation. Much appreciated!Orsoni (talk) 21:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Top prospects

If I was to create an article listing Baseball America's top 100 prospects, would it be nominated for deletion? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Probably. The list is unique and original to BA, so is protected by copyright. Having an alphabetical list of top baseball prospects, and their ranking by the major baseball scouting organisations might be acceptable. (For example, yearly lists could include any player who was listed in the top 100 of any reputable ranking system.) It could also contain prose about which players are regarded as 'elite'. Article titles might be List of baseball prospects from 2012 or something similar. Mindmatrix 17:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 17:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If enough independent articles exist that could be used to recreate the list outside of the BA reference, it would be considered notable under WP:LISTN. For example, if one could find articles that "player X was #1 BA prospect", another that "player Y was #2 prospect", etc, it would not be a copyvio. In general, if a list is only available from the publisher, its a copyvio—not to mention not notable if nobody even writes about it.—Bagumba (talk) 17:54, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Kirby Puckett Discrepancy

This may be minute, but Kirby Puckett was drafted #3 overall in 1982, which is noted on his page. However, there is no mention of him on the 1982 MLB Draft page. I don't know how to fix this but I figured someone on here might. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.27.51.147 (talk) 05:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

There was a January draft, whereas 1982 MLB Draft only has the June draft results.—Bagumba (talk) 05:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Even List articles need at least short prefaces that explain what they are about. Articles on particular draft renditions such as 1982 Major League Baseball Draft, 1983, etc, desperately need to say what is the MLB draft, when was this one conducted, and (this incident suggests) what other drafts MLB conducted this year.

Rule 5 draft results needs something similar that explains how the list is incomplete. The template {{dynamic list}} is an overstatement for a list that is currently complete but needs periodic update; if that list article does cover all of the Rule 5 drafts to date, or lacks only completion of the latest rendition (2011/2012), then use {{update}} or {{update after}}.

move to Talk: Rule 5 draft results, although my forthcoming comments will make some suggestions that have general application. --P64 (talk) 15:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. --P64 (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

1997 AL East & Central

OK, this is a head scratcher. I randomly opened my The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Baseball Desk Reference ISBN 0-7894-8392-0 to the 1997 season (p. 160) and it said Detroit & Milwaukee flipped divisions that year, with Det. in the Central & Mil. in the East. But that didn't sound right to me, so I checked a few more sources and they all had Det. moving to the East in 1998 and Mil. moving to the NL in 1998; there was no flip of divisions in 1997. But then I checked one last source, Total Baseball (6th ed., 1998) p. 2380 and it has the 1997 flip of Det. & Mil. in the East & Central. WP & B-R.com do not have this 1997 flip. So what gives? Did Mil. play 1997 in the AL East or AL Central? One last thing, their records were almost identical: 78-83/Mil. 79-83/Det. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.216.98 (talk) 14:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't recall Milwaukee ever playing in the east... but in any event, the official source is MLB so check MLB.com [9] and you get the Brewers in the Central and the Tigers in the East. Spanneraol (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Did Total Baseball then err? Does anyone have a more recent TB that has a correction? I would be interested in knowing if TB corrected this. I guess a simple look at newspaper standings from 1997 would also answer this, but I don't have easy access to that right now. --64.85.216.98 (talk) 14:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

According to a Cincinnati Post article, "BASEBALL COOLS ON BIG REALIGNMENT RADICAL PLAN LOSES SUPPORT" dated August 23, 1997, the Tigers were in the AL East in 1997. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 16:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

According to American League West #Former members, the Brewers were an AL West founding member, but moved to the AL East in 1972, to the AL Central in 1994, and to the NL Central in 1998. Eagle4000 (talk) 17:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Although Detroit & Milwaukee did not flip divisions in 1997 (with Det. in the Central & Mil. in the East), Detroit did move from the AL East to the AL Central in 1998 (American League East #Former Members), at the same time that Milwaukee moved from the AL Central to the NL Central. Also, American League West #The Division Members says that -- in 1972 -- Milwaukee switched divisions with Washington/Texas, by moving to the AL East (from the AL West), while the newly named Texas Rangers franchise moved to the AL West from the AL East (where it had resided as the Washington Senators). Eagle4000 (talk) 18:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Place of birth in lead?

Is there a specific policy for having the place of birth in the lead for baseball players? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Yup. It doesn't belong there. See MOS:BIO for what's supposed to be listed in the first sentence and other parts of the lead section of a biographical article on Wikipedia.

I always include the birthplace in an "early years" section, along with the subject's family background, early education, etc., together with high school sports history if the subject is an athlete. If the subject is a MLB player and only briefly played college baseball, it may be appropriate to stick the short college history in the "early years" section, too. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Use of "winner" and "award" in infobox

Previous consensus for listing All-Star appearance was to use "All-Star" instead of "All-Star selection" for brevity. Should we do the same for "winner" where many infoboxes currently list "Silver Slugger Award winner" or "Gold Glove Award winner" (e.g. Alex Rodriguez). What about even removing "Award" and shortening to "Silver Slugger" and "Gold Glove"?—Bagumba (talk) 04:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Whereas players across many sports are often described as an "All-Star" as a contraction of "All-Star player", I don't believe MLB players are often referred to as a "Gold Glove". The grammar works a bit better in the case of "Silver Slugger", but my feeling is that it is still not common to refer to an MLB player by this abbreviated phrase. isaacl (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

In space-limited player infoboxes, let's delete/omit the use of words like "selection," "winner," "recipient," "honoree," etc. The name of the award followed by a parenthetical with the season (or seasons) that the award was received are self-explanatory. The additional words add nothing to the reader's understanding, and often cause an otherwise unnecessary and unattractive line-wrap. I have heard the unconvincing argument, as advanced by Isaac above, that it is somehow not proper to refer to a player as "a Gold Glove." To my way of thinking, "Gold Glove (2011)" does not refer to the player; it refers to the award and the year the player received it. Editors are free to use the words "winner," "recipient," "honoree," etc., in body text when describing a player's honors, and I would encourage them to do so to the extent necessary to create smoothly flowing prose. In the infobox, such words are surplusage and may be omitted.

In reviewing several hundred MLB player bios over the last several years, the only occasion where I believe the use of an additional word is necessary following infobox honors and awards is when we list World Series championships won by the player. Why this difference, you ask? Because when we list "World Series (2011)" in a player's infobox, it is unclear whether the player was on the winning team or was merely a participant. In this one instance, I advocate adding the word "champion" for clarity, as in "World Series champion (2011)." It is not necessary to add "winner" or "champion" to "National League pennant (1898)," however, because only the league champion claims the pennant; there is no ambiguity. In most MLB bios I've reviewed, league pennants are already presented in this fashion.

FYI, WP:NFL and WP:CFB have already decided to omit such unnecessary words from infobox honors by project consensus. WP:NFL, however, likewise makes an exception for such as "Super Bowl champion (XXXII)." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a reasonable argument; therefore I agree with omitting the word award. isaacl (talk) 15:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Omit the word "award" in the infobox, but keep it in the prose areas. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 15:28, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm kind of on the fence about this topic, but I definitely think that the word "award" should be retained in infoboxes for awards that are named after people (e.g. "AL CY Young Award", "Roberto Clemente Award"). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 16:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the need for brevity, as it's only one more word. Also, we need to remember that as an online encylopedia, these articles should be directed towards the neophyte reader who may know absolutely nothing about the sport, such as readers from countries where baseball isn't a major sport. To them, the words "Gold Glove" may be meaningless, whereas the word award would help clarify the entry. I think some editors lose sight of this and tend to direct articles towards sports fans who are already knowledgeable about the sport.Orsoni (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

(outdent) (edit conflict) (edit summary says "indecisive" and I can't disagree much with Orsoni)

It's reasonable to select an "infobox use names" for awards where some include the word "Award" and others do not, more likely IMO depending on length rather than what the award is named after. If this infobox or column were narrow, "Clemente Award" or "Clemente" might be reasonable.

The troubling point here is that this infobox cell covers more than awards, and group honors such as all-star, and even group achievements such as champions. The cell display name is "Awards and career highlights". Is there a fixed list of permitted highlights --at least for players who do have some permitted award, etc? (Free form seems entirely acceptable to me if a player's greatest achievement was "Triple and double in one game".) The listings in this cell ought to convey --for almost all readers, without reading another article-- which do refer to awards of some kind and which are other highlights. Abbreviations without 'Award', 'Crown', 'Medal', 'Trophy', etc may impair that --depending on what other listings occur.

{{Infobox writer}} has cell names on the left, which uses horizontal space, including one for Notable awards only, which saves horizontal space because Award goes without saying, in a general sense that may cover 'Medal', 'Prize' or whatever. ... even so, I find that it's common to abbreviate by dropping the fullname, as in Clemente Award rather than Roberto Clemente. ... Indeed, there is a tendency to display Awards: Pulitzer Prize rather than Awards: Pulitzer in History, although the 'Prize' is more famous than any baseball award. ... Awards: National Book Award rather than Awards: National Book, Fiction. ... Pulitzer and National Book in some award categories would be too long for one line, even without 'Prize' and 'Award'. I doubt that is why we spell out those redundancies and give less info where we do have room to abbreviate completely (underlined). I don't know of any relevant policy or guideline. --P64 (talk) 18:45, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought this discussion might be more productive if we had some concrete examples to discuss, approve, disapprove, improve, etc. The following list was taken from the list of World Series MVP articles:

• 2x World Series champion (1978, 1979)

not 2x World Series (1978, 1979)

• 2x National League pennant (1898, 1901)

not 2x National League pennant winner (1898, 1901)

• 14x All-Star (1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002,

2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010)

not 14x All-Star selection (1995, 1998, 1999,

2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007,

2008, 2009, 2010)

• 4x NL home run champion (1957, 1963, 1966, 1967)

not 4x NL Home Run Champion (1957, 1963, 1966, 1967)

• 2x NL batting title (1965, 1966)

not 2x NL batting champion (1965, 1966)

• World Series Most Valuable Player (1964)

or 4x World Series MVP (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

not 4x World Series MVP Award (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

• NL Most Valuable Player (1975)

or 4x NL MVP (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

• ALCS Most Valuable Player (1996)

or 4x ALCS MVP (1957, 1958, 1961, 1964)

• NL Comeback Player of the Year (1986)

not NL Comeback Player of the Year Award (1986)

• AL Rookie of the Year (1996)

not AL Rookie of the Year Award (1996)

• AL Manager of the Year (1989)

• 4x Gold Glove Award (1978, 1979, 1980, 1981)

not 4x Gold Glove (1978, 1979, 1980, 1981)

• Hickok Belt (1955)

not Hickok Belt winner (1955)

• Hutch Award (1966)

not Hutch Award recipient (1966)

• 3× NL Rolaids Relief Man of the Year (1977, 1978, 1980)

not 3× NL Relief Man of the Year (1977, 1978, 1980)

• 3x Silver Slugger Award (1992, 1996, 1998)

not 3x Silver Slugger (1992, 1996, 1998)

• Babe Ruth Award (2008)

not Babe Ruth (2008)

• Branch Rickey Award (2007)

not Branch Rickey winner (2007)

• 2x NL Cy Young Award (1978, 1981)

not 2x NL Cy Young (1978, 1981)

• Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (2009)

not Lou Gehrig Award (2009)

• Roberto Clemente Award (2010)

not Roberto Clemente (2010)

• MLB career home run record (715)

• MLB postseason RBI record (21 in 2011)

• AL career stolen bases record (337)

• 2× NL complete games leader (2003, 2004)

not 2× NL leader in complete games (2003, 2004)

• New York Yankees No. 5 retired

not New York Yankees #5 retired

• Texas Rangers Hall of Fame

I think the list above is fairly representative of the most common MLB championships, honors and awards. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:50, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The conversation started with the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards; you seem to be suggesting to keep the word "award" for these prizes, in spite of your previous response. Is this correct? isaacl (talk) 02:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Isaac, I thought I was pretty clear in my original comment above, but apparently I was not. My original comments were really limited to the use of the additional words "winner," "recipient," "honoree," "selection," and the like, which some editors are compelled to add to infobox honors. (The most egregious example is adding "selection" to "All-Star" and "winner" to various other awards.) While I do not think tagging "Award" on the end of MLB, AL, NL, ALCS and NLCS MVP honors serves any useful purpose, other awards have commonly used names such as the Cy Young Award and the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award. Where an award is commonly known by an actual name that includes the word "Award" or "Trophy," we should use it. This is especially true where an award is named for a player, and omitting the word "Award" only serves to confuse readers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

As you responded to my discussion of the term "Gold Glove" and gave "Gold Glove (2011)" as a specific example, perhaps you can understand my confusion on the matter. isaacl (talk) 04:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Mea culpa, Isaac. In editing MLB bios, I have encountered so many infobox renderings of "Gold Glove winner (2011)" that I thought that the actual name of the award was "Gold Glove." It is not; the actual name is "Gold Glove Award." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey, guys, can we finish this discussion and come to a conclusion? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

There was an argument to keep "Award" to distinguish cases where the award was named after a person, e.g. "Roberto Clemente Award" vs "Roberto Clemente". So I thought, "fine, just leave award on everything for simplicity", but I see "World Series Most Valuable Player", "NL Most Valuable Player", "AL Rookie of the Year" where "Award" isnt used. What is the general rule here? Is there are going to be exceptions, I'd prefer to not have them for Gold Glove or Silver Slugger, as baseball-reference.com lists them. Either have the rule as

1. Do not specify "Award" except in cases where the award is named after a person

2. Always use "Award".

I !vote #1.—Bagumba (talk) 23:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I would vote to use award as mentioned above, for the benefit of readers who have no previous knowledge of the sport. Encyclopedia articles should not strive for brevity, but for thoroughness.Orsoni (talk) 00:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

To be clear (since there's multiple examples above), you would also want "World Series Most Valuable Player Award" and not "World Series Most Valuable Player Award"?—Bagumba (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

2012 NCAA Division I baseball season

The article 2012 NCAA Division I baseball season is seriously broken. The main part looks OK; but skip down to reference 56 and it becomes a sea of Node-count limit exceeded. This tells me that there are transclusion issues: either there are too many templates, or those templates are too complicated. The problem is not necessarily with one of the references. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:27, 7 June 2012 (UTC)