Jump to content

Talk:Satguru: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
Satguru always a Sannyasan?: many examples of householder Satgurus exist
Sharnak (talk | contribs)
Line 48: Line 48:


The [[Surat Shabd Yoga]], [[Sant Mat]], [[Contemporary Sant Mat movements]], [[Radha Soami]], [[Radha Soami Satsang Beas]], and related lineages are well known for householder and even family lineages, such as [[Shiv Dayal Singh]], [[Baba Sawan Singh]], [[Kirpal Singh]], [[Sant Thakar Singh]] and many others. [[User:207.69.139.138|207.69.139.138]] 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The [[Surat Shabd Yoga]], [[Sant Mat]], [[Contemporary Sant Mat movements]], [[Radha Soami]], [[Radha Soami Satsang Beas]], and related lineages are well known for householder and even family lineages, such as [[Shiv Dayal Singh]], [[Baba Sawan Singh]], [[Kirpal Singh]], [[Sant Thakar Singh]] and many others. [[User:207.69.139.138|207.69.139.138]] 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for looking at those links. Yes, you're right what you say. I suppose I need a source -- but will not come down to a definition most likely (as you say yourself) since most definitions are short. However, some reasoning is necessary even in looking at qualified sources in determining if a satguru is a sanyassin. Here's my thinking on this. Wikipedia defines a [Sanyasa|sanyassin] as the last stage of the path as prescribed by Hinduism. But according to Meher Baba in "[God Speaks]" a satguru is no longer on the path at all, but is rather a perfected master. He can do anything he wants (is spontaneous) and is unpredictable and unfathomable as he is no longer in search of anything. He is a perfect teacher and no longer a seeker or aspirant. The following exerpt speaks about both sanyasins and sadgurus so it is a good source for showing they are not one and the same thing.

''"Throughout all ages, sadhus and seekers, sages and saints, munis and monks, tapasavis and ''sanyasis'', Sufis and talibs, have struggled during their lifetimes, undergoing untold hardships in their ifforts to extricate themselves from the maze of actions and to realize the eternal Existence by overcoming life... Emancipation from the grip of life and freedom from the labyrinths of actions are made possible for all and attained by a few, when a Perfect Master, Sadguru or Qutub is approached and his grave and guidance are invoked."'' [[User:Cott12|Jon]] 12:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:31, 26 April 2006

Propose to merge this into Guru. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t@ 17:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Satguru" and "Guru" really don't have the same meaning in those traditions that make a distinction, e.g., Sikhism & Surat Shabd Yoga, even if some other traditions use them interchangably, e.g., Hinduism. How would you preserve this distinction by merging the two articles? I don't support a merge at this time. RDF talk 17:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

By creating a new section on the Guru article, named Satguru and explaining the specifics of this term. What do you think? ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t@ 18:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well you could merge the Hindu sections about Satguru with Guru, but the Sikh version is not the same. Satguru is a name for god, like Waheguru and is not a learned teacher. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If the redirect goes directly to the section, like shown below, I can live with it. RDF talk 18:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  1. REDIRECT Guru#Satguru
I don't think that Redirects can include anchors... So we can leave it like this for now. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t@ 23:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you're right, but it was worth a try. I also think the "See also" works for now. RDF talk 23:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that Sikhs refer to their gurus as satgurus. Can you confirm this? ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t@ 23:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they do, not all, they use various names. Jossi.The darkness/light thing bothers me as what you do is making it too easy. I am not a scholar, but did some research for you, maybe that helps. Since , gu is never darkness in Sanskrit, Guna is "darkness" on the level of consciousness (greed, anger, passion) and ru has amongst other meanings "cutting" , "breaks" , "kill". Since this is not a proof it does make more sense(especially in the translation of the upnanshad). the breaker of guna. The etymology of ru as light must IMO derived from somewhere else, i don't know. Since the basic word gru or guru is meaning the heavy/important man, the other meaning was probaly added out of religious poetry or to give it a deeper meaning constructing such etymologies and is close to, whoever thougt that, what Prabhupada once gave as etymology to Guru. Thomas h 14:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


That may be the case, but in folllowing Wikipedia policy, we can only write based on sources we find. Check my last edit to Guru. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t@ 21:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits
  1. removed Sikhism template as this article refers to Hiduism, Sikhism and Surat Shabd
  2. removed material that is discussed in the Guru, Contemporary Sant Mat movement and others

≈ jossi fresco ≈ t@ 00:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Satguru always a Sannyasan?

Hanuman Das, I appreciate your respect for Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, but this information that a satguru is never a householder is not true. You need other sources or it ought to be removed. You have sannyasin and satguru confused. I can give numerous citings and examples where this is not so. Gautama Buddha was married for gosh sake.

I do not need other sources. It is cited as something that Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said. Wikipedia is not a judge of truth; it simply reports verifiable facts, and that is what my cited addition is. It is you who needs to cite a reference that a Satguru can be a householder if you wish to dispute it. I do not need multiple sources to include it. I'd recommend adding one good academic source that says a Satguru can be a householder and leave it at that. WP:NPOV means that you can't exclude multiple viewpoints simply because you don't agree with them or because there are conflicting opinions. That there are conflicting opinions is also a fact and an interesting one at that. —Hanuman Das 21:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Now that I think about it I can't think of a single source that has any mention of this in its definition. But there are so many examples from history (or legend). For instance, Milarepa's satguru Marpa was a householder. Nisargadatta Maharaj was a householder. Also Gautama Buddha. But you are right that Wikipedia is open to disparate views. Jon 21:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would certainly like to see a good reference that confirms you opinion as I suspect you are correct, but it is also possible that the term satguru is misused in popular usage; which also would be an interesting fact to include in the article, if true. Unfortunately, I don't have time to hit the library myself at this time, but I have no doubt that you or someone will find some more infomation on this apparent conflict... —Hanuman Das 21:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hanuman, Thank you for being so kind. The more I thought about it the more I realized you were right that I had no source that says anything contrary to what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami says. I only had these examples in mind that I already mentioned. I know that Avatars like Rama are sometimes married. This matter is not usually part of the description of a satguru or sadguru, but rather their state is described. It is hard to say for it is hard to say who was for sure a real satguru. We can only rely on lineage or the word of other satgurus. And often they are silent on who else is a satguru. Certainly Sai Baba of Shirdi was, but he was not married. He did smoke however. Perhaps someone else can do the research. Jon 23:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note, however, that the statement "The definition of Satguru elsewhere does not however include that stricture" is a negative claim, which is 'true' as far as it goes if you check the definitions elsewhere. As far as others having the 'opinion' that Satgurus can be householders, this can be found in several not-so-authoritative sources. I have here a few I found:

  • "Some Masters in the past were householders and had children." [1]
  • Sadguru Yogiraj Sri Sri Mangeshda (See bottom sentence) [2]
  • Tiruvannamalai, Kanchipuram (page 10) [3]
  • "Sadguru must also be married" (Under "Qualities of a Sadguru") [4]
Interesting examples. I note that the first and third do not seem to be speaking specifically of satguru, but rather "Master" in the first and indeterminate in the second. And the first is clearly a Sikh example and I'm sure we can agree that Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami was not trying to speak to Sikh practices. The last example suggests that the rule varies from lineage to lineage, which is what I would suspect. For example, Kriya Yoga lineages seem to allow householder satgurus, while perhaps most other lineages do not.
With respect to the negative claim, I don't think it sufficient to merit inclusion. Kind of like that "Have you stopped beating your wife" question, the answer is not conclusive and the opposite may be true. It's true that some things may be so taken for granted that no one ever mentions them in writing, but I doubt that this is one of them. I'll add Hindu to the Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami sentence as we work to get a clearer understanding of the matter.... —Hanuman Das 02:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Surat Shabd Yoga, Sant Mat, Contemporary Sant Mat movements, Radha Soami, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and related lineages are well known for householder and even family lineages, such as Shiv Dayal Singh, Baba Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh, Sant Thakar Singh and many others. 207.69.139.138 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for looking at those links. Yes, you're right what you say. I suppose I need a source -- but will not come down to a definition most likely (as you say yourself) since most definitions are short. However, some reasoning is necessary even in looking at qualified sources in determining if a satguru is a sanyassin. Here's my thinking on this. Wikipedia defines a [Sanyasa|sanyassin] as the last stage of the path as prescribed by Hinduism. But according to Meher Baba in "[God Speaks]" a satguru is no longer on the path at all, but is rather a perfected master. He can do anything he wants (is spontaneous) and is unpredictable and unfathomable as he is no longer in search of anything. He is a perfect teacher and no longer a seeker or aspirant. The following exerpt speaks about both sanyasins and sadgurus so it is a good source for showing they are not one and the same thing.

"Throughout all ages, sadhus and seekers, sages and saints, munis and monks, tapasavis and sanyasis, Sufis and talibs, have struggled during their lifetimes, undergoing untold hardships in their ifforts to extricate themselves from the maze of actions and to realize the eternal Existence by overcoming life... Emancipation from the grip of life and freedom from the labyrinths of actions are made possible for all and attained by a few, when a Perfect Master, Sadguru or Qutub is approached and his grave and guidance are invoked." Jon 12:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]