Talk:2012 Aurora theater shooting

Comments

Here is also 2012 Denver shootings article. --Stryn (talk) 09:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I created an article at this title because I didn't notice that it had already been created elsewhere. Since the other article was created first, I've deleted mine and moved the pre-existing article (2012 Denver shootings) here (2012 Aurora movie theater shooting), which I think is a better title, although probably not the perfect title. Hopefully I haven't made it too confusing, but I was trying to avoid a situation where we have two or three different articles about the same subject. --Bongwarrior (talk) 09:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.3.63 (talk) 16:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Title

I believe the appropriate title is "2012 Aurora shooting" (singular), corresponding to something like "2011 Tucson shooting", which was also a single event, not like "Toulouse and Montauban shootings", which was a series of three shootings. DillonLarson (talk) 10:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with this, by the way - my semi-protection of this page was to stop IP nonsense but I think the title should be singular, it would be constructive if people stopped edit warring over it and discussed, though. - filelakeshoe 10:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Please compare 2012 Tulsa shootings. Meph^talk 10:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

As an aside, please don't move articles by copying and pasting content. Meph^talk 10:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There is another article at 2012 Aurora shooting. one needs redirecting. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion Aurora shooting or Denver shooting is more accurate than shootings. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be 2012 Aurora shooting, and redirected this page to that one. Can we please have some agreement on this? Robofish (talk) 10:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Any change of title should be accomplished with a move, not with a redirect to a mostly copy/pasted version of the original. --Bongwarrior (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Since there's no concensus over 'shooting' and 'shootings' among similar articles, I'd suggest deferring to whatever title was originally given when first created: [2]. Meph^talk 10:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The singular should be more appropriate.--Coekon (talk) 10:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

2012 Aurora shootings is the older article by five minutes, so let's keep it at that for now. I still think the singular title is more logical though. Robofish (talk) 10:32, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed this is main article but at wrong title. it should be shooting, but i do think it worth considering if this should be Aurora or Denver. The international media is heavily referring to this as Denver. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

But domestic media is referring as Aurora, such as CNN. In my personal opinion, the domestic media shall prevail.--Coekon (talk) 10:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If there's no convention let's leave it here for now - I merged over the extra section + stub cats you added from the other article, when more media usage comes out we can move it if necessary over one of the other redirects. - filelakeshoe 10:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that the plurality is accurate nomenclature. While there is a convention on WP:PLURAL for adopting the singular, it's also the case that 'shooting' denotes an instance of a shooting, rather than multiple shootings, and hence the singular fails to signify properly: [3]. Meph^talk 10:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted that while the media may be using 'Denver', that's actually inaccurate - Aurora, Colorado is a separate municipality, although it is part of the broader Denver metropolitan area. Robofish (talk) 10:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The 2012 Aurora shootings article (which began as 2012 Denver shootings) was created 42 minutes before 2012 Aurora shooting, not five. --Bongwarrior (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Can I just say that I'm glad it was moved back to shootings so quickly. Massacre is an emotive word and not appropriate here. Douglasi (talk) 10:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Massacre would be appropriate if that was what people were calling it (Srebrenica massacre) but otherwise, yes, I agree. - filelakeshoe 10:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

What people? The ones on wikipedia? Just 'cause CNN has it as a headline doesn't mean that it's not a sensational word. In fact, I'd argue that the fact that a major news outlet called is such means it's designed solely to attract clicks and views. It should stay shooting and be part of the canonical Spree Shooting entry.--Possum4all (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Different media organisations saying shooting.. . Daily Telegraph, BBC, CNN, Fox, Sky news, Guardian, CBS, ABC News, NBC news. The overwhelming majority of sources are saying shooting not "shootings", which implies more than one incident. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC) few more.. Reuters, AFP , MSN, AP BritishWatcher (talk) 11:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we just change it to shooting and create a redirect for shootings.. ?? Wouldn't it make since to adjust it sooner then later and then we can all just stop talking about the titleMantion (talk) 11:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to name the article "2012 Aurora Theater Shooting" or "2012 Aurora Theater Massacre?"

I argued for Virginia Tech's Tragedy, and still would, that the term "massacre" is biased / loaded and shouldn't be used for spree shootings of this nature. --Possum4all (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Depends on what reliable sources say. GiantSnowman 15:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Give me a break. It's a sensational word and shouldn't be part of a reference entry here. Just as it shouldn't be part of the Virginia Tech title. --Possum4all (talk) 15:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments

"Gunman" is sexist language. Say "armed individual" or "person with a gun." If the person is unknown, don't say "man in custody." That, too, is sexist. Say "unknown person in custody." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.165.229.61 (talk) 11:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure you wouldn't care if it said gunwoman or woman holding a gun. Keep your feministic views off Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.212.144 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a legitimate complaint.Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)^[1] 11:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

 DoneBrightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)^[1] 11:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

YAAFM. All reports describe a Male. Gunman is accurate.Mantion (talk) 11:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

A gunman cannot be called a gunman?, talk about Political correctness. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, you're correct. My edits can be reverted then. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)^[1] 11:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well i changed to armed man, can be changed to gunman if people want. But certainly needs to say male rather than individual. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• We follow the reliable sources here. They say "gunman", so we do too. --John (talk) 11:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

They just mentioned that 12 was confirmed dead not 14. http://www.9news.com/video/9newsonline.aspx 5:48

Youngest victim

The youngest victim reported was a 6-year-old being treated at Children's Hospital Colorado...

Many credible reports describe a baby being shot and killed at point blank range.Mantion (talk) 11:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Just reported by 9NEWS the youngest victim is 3 months old at Universal Medical Center 5:16. Information is on http://www.9news.com/news/article/278707/71/1-in-custody-14-dead-in-Aurora-theater-shooting "University Hospital confirmed to 9NEWS the youngest patient they have in their care is 3 months old. That baby's condition is unknown at this time."

Y Done --w^{L<speak·check>} 11:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:FORUM but, What kind of idiot brings a 3 month old to a midnight showing of an R rated movie with craploads of violence and lound noises that will just make them cry and annoy everyone else? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Completely inappropriate comment, I suggest you retract it. GiantSnowman 14:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

We can redact such comments from talk pages, but im inclined to leave it here. Its also possible, of course, that reliable sources, or the public, will express such sentiments, so watching for that and discussing adding it to the article is appropriate (though unlikely)Mercurywoodrose (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Referencing Source

It'd be good to include facts from particular sources in sentences with their sources. For instance, the sentence that gives his age as 24 had a footnote to a news report that just says he's in his 20s. But 2 sentences later, an unrelated sentence has a citation to a news article that describes him as 24. It'd be good to keep the information near the correct citation, because I shortly (before undoing it) edited the 24 reference back to '20s' since the associated footnote said '20s'.Douglaswyatt (talk) 11:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to do this yourself. Happy editing, hajatvrc with WikiLove @ 11:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I did. I was just hoping I wouldn't have to keep doing so. Douglaswyatt (talk) 12:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Tennessee license plates?

Unconfirmed reports of a Tennessee license plate for the gunman, does anyone know anything more about this? --Old Al (Talk) 11:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Very likely true not very relevant at this time.Mantion (talk) 11:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. This was listed at WP:RM/TR; I took a look here, saw a pretty clear consensus and so carried out the move. The history that was previously located at 2012 Aurora shooting is now at Talk:2012 Aurora shooting/old. Jenks24 (talk) 13:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

---

2012 Aurora shootings → 2012 Aurora shooting – I think the article title does need changing, at the very least it needs to be moved to shooting, which is more accurate than shootings (which implies more than one incident) as reflected by the overwhelming majority of news organisations using the term "shooting" -Daily Telegraph, BBC,CNN,Fox,Sky news,Guardian,CBS, ABC News, NBC news,Reuters,AFP,MSN,AP. I am not sure if there would be consensus at this stage to change the name to something like 2012 Aurora movie theater shooting, although i think it would be more helpful if it did have a title like that.. but at the very least we need to get a correct title like "2012 Aurora shooting". BritishWatcher (talk) 11:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Agreed.  Sandstein  11:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• AgreedMantion (talk) 11:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Actually I think the title is inaccurate. Most reliable sources are calling it the "Denver Batman massacre" or variations. There is no reason why not name it as such, as it is the overwhelming common name. Yes I might not be as active, but I still have that WP:COMMONNAME edge. Don't let this !Vote get on the way of taking that "s" out tho... I am just saying focusing on that is missing the point. --Cerejota (talk) 11:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I would support use of Denver as that is what the international press is using, but not "Denver Batman massacre". I agree that a wider debate on what is the best name is needed, i just want to see a speedy fix to this current title which is certainly inaccurate with "shootings", and not the term used by the sources. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Denver Batman massacre"?? It looks like the Batman conducted the massacre. In addition, American press uses Aurora. I think the local press is more accurate. --Coekon (talk)

• Support proposed move. No appetite for a tabloidy title like the Batman one. --John (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• "Denver Batman massacre" added as redirect. --Kslotte (talk) 12:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support proposed. Definitely do not support anything like "Denver Batman massacre" not only since incident occurred in Aurora (overseas sources may simply be generalising the location since Denver is more widely known) but also since "massacre" has a strong POV connotation, IMO. — Huntster (t @ c) 12:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support proposed move. DillonLarson (talk) 12:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support proposed, as above --Coekon (talk) 12:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support move to 'shooting'. Oppose anything that would put 'Batman' or 'massacre' in the title, we're not a tabloid. Robofish (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If there are no objections to a speedy change to 2012 Aurora shooting should i list it as a technical move or is there an admin about that will be able to make this move if there is consensus? obviously its not something that should wait the standard 7 days. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC) I have requested a technical move here [4] to ask someone to move the article to 2012 Aurora shooting as there appears to be consensus now that is a more accurate title than shootings, and we should not wait for 7 days to correct it. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC) Thanks its been changed now. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reactions

Just heard on 9news.com live feed that the Obama family as well as presidential candidate Mitt Romney have both commented thus far on this event. Idk how to do it but maybe we should add a Reactions section? Maybe not if that's only applicable to international events. 98.28.68.210 (talk)

 Done --w^{L<speak·check>} 11:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Seriously? John Stamos? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.20.66.9 (talk) 16:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Total killed

Okay, sources are repeatedly jumping between 12-14-15 killed. Perhaps a better wording, until the facts get straightened out, would be to reflect this range. — Huntster (t @ c) 12:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Almost all the sources ive seen say 14, i think we should stick with what the most sources say unless there is far more conflicting sources. I saw one fox article url or headline say 15, yet the article it self and fox news at the time were saying 14. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm BBC has just changed theirs to at leaast 12. [5] so maybe we should change to the range and say conflicting reports. BBC had been saying 14 for hours. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Now Fox on TV and the CNN article are both stating the figure has been revised down to 12. Guess it's still a wait-and-see thing. I'm wondering what set off the "14" figure. — Huntster (t @ c) 12:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. BBC declares it is 12 now --Coekon (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Media outlets likely reported 14 based on an initial scene assessment. Adhere to current reports, in which case the appropriate figure is 12. Meph^talk 12:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC).

The local news station (9news.com out of Colorado I think) just stated there were 12 confirmed deaths so I'd have to support the first guy suggesting that multiple counts be mentioned for now. 12:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.28.68.210 (talk)

I don't want to start some sort of pro-life debate, but does wiki recognize a pregnant women as 1 death or 2?Mantion (talk) 12:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia has no position about this (WP:NPOV). We report casualties as they are reported by reliable sources, i.e., the media and authorities.  Sandstein  12:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Aside from Wikipedia policy, it may be appropriate to mention special attributes of the victims that help describe the incident's impact. So it may be appropriate to mention that a pregnant woman was among the victims, if that has been confirmed, or a child or infant, as has been mentioned in some stories. One would not count a pregnant woman however as two victims for numerous reasons, including that one may not necessarily know if she was carrying one or more fetuses (or children, which the media may choose to describe her as carrying).[[User:Ssc] (talk) 14:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Fox News reporting a young girl, six yrs old iirc, succumbed to injuries, so waiting on written source saying count has ticked up. :( — Huntster (t @ c) 14:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of the name of the suspect

Please refrain from including the name of the suspect. This is a standard protocol of media ethics that we should uphold. Making the name famous in the immediate aftermath incentivizes similar attacks. Twyn3161 (talk) 12:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Krford (talk) 12:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Or a newspaper. - filelakeshoe 12:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Be sensible. Twyn3161 (talk) 12:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

On the news I saw the name has been released. I don't know if it's appropriate to put name here UsefulWikipedia (talk) 12:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored (WP:CENSOR). We are also not part of the media and I doubt that any code of professional ethics prohibits reporting the name of an alleged mass murderer. The name (if accompanied by a citation to reliable source, see WP:BLP) is highly relevant information and must be included.  Sandstein  12:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There's no source given so i've removed it... but you know why. Twyn3161 (talk) 12:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Twyn3161 cut it out. Consensus is against you and I see no source cited from you saying that not releasing the name of a suspect is standard media protocol. I'm only familiar with not releasing the names of juveniles or victims. Here's your source with a name: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/aurora-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-identified-james-holmes/story?id=16818889#.UAlTqyIvyRY Chrisbrl88 (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I removed it for no source. There's a source now. This is absurdly irresponsible, but have at it. Twyn3161 (talk) 12:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:BLP1E allows for the inclusion of the suspect's name, and common freaking sense says this is important information. Stop this pointy stuff. It might be irresponsible in your view, but it isn't in the view of the community. --Cerejota (talk) 12:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22301897/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/should-media-make-mass-killers-famous/ There's a reason that the good newspapers - such as NYTIMES have not published the name but the poor ones have. Which would you rather be reflective of?Twyn3161 (talk) 12:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Please, read and understand WP:SOAPBOX. If you have a problem with policy, go and discuss it at WP:BLP/WP:BIO and at WP:CENSOR. This is not the place. Thank you.--Cerejota (talk) 13:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Twyn3161 - the media always reports the name of suspects in crimes, often mistakenly - so your talk of "code of ethics" is, alas, not true. GiantSnowman 13:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I thinkthe name is allowable under two restrictions : 1) only in the isolated suspect section for now, not in the overall article. 2) making sure always to identify as alleged/suspected etc and never factual. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The only real restriction here is WP:BLPCRIME. If the suspect's name is readily available in reliable sources, it can be included in the article.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"He looked like an assassin ready to go to war" -9news Colorado. Twyn3161, there is no controversy in terms of who is the alleged gunman.

Map

Could people please explain why they believe a map showing the location of "Aurora, Colorado" is irrelevant? [6] [7] I thought this was the whole point of the map parameter of this infobox. - filelakeshoe 12:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The map used previously showed no reference points. It just looked like a random sketch. Add some town or street names. Krford (talk) 12:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I restored the map originally because there was no explanation for its removal, and the edit summary was misleading...thought it may have been a mistake. I see no problem with it, as it illustrates location, and the caption clearly states the town is the red mark. — Huntster (t @ c) 13:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Removed again, I'm nearly at 3RR on this article, and don't have access to an image editing software right now so fine. I don't know what part of "location of Aurora (red) in the state of Colorado" was so hard to understand, but whatever. - filelakeshoe 13:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I've readded the map. There is absolutely no reason that it should be unwelcome, as the caption explains its significance to the article. As to the mention of "street names", this is a map of the entire state, not just the county of the shooting, that's why there's no street names. -- Zanimum (talk) 13:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Krford, stop removing the map. Several others have expressed that the map does indeed add something to the article, so find consensus against it before removing again. — Huntster (t @ c) 13:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, just saw your edit. To clarify my position, I don't think the map is terribly helpful for those without knowledge of US geography, but for those with knowledge, it helps to identify this location within the context of the state. The main reason I support its inclusion is because we completely lack any other imagery. Once we get an image of the theatre, or even the mall, I would certainly consider revisiting the subject of the map. But currently, I don't see any reason it shouldn't be there. -- Zanimum (talk) 13:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe people will find this map more suitable: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2012AuroraShootingLocation.png Chrisbrl88 (talk) 13:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort, but I feel like it doesn't give any kind of frame of reference, at least, not like the current image does (which at least makes it clear where in the state of Colorado that Aurora is). Other thoughts? — Huntster (t @ c) 13:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If someone with access to image editing software could emulate something like what there is at 2011 Tucson shooting I suppose that would be an improvement. - filelakeshoe 13:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Check it now. Chrisbrl88 (talk) 13:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That's good, but are google maps not copyrighted? - filelakeshoe 13:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

https://developers.google.com/maps/terms Section 8.3 Chrisbrl88 (talk) 13:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That's a good point that was raised. Google Maps only give a license for personal, non-transferable use. The content remains copyrighted and is non-free. Sorry, but it cannot be used in this situation, when a free alternative exists. — Huntster (t @ c) 13:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok edited using an image licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 licence (CC BY-SA). Check now. Chrisbrl88 (talk) 14:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Where'd my map go?! that thing took me like 20 minutes! Chrisbrl88 (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know when it was removed, but please be mindful that this is Wikipedia, and if others don't like the map, they are free to remove it. Time invested is no guarantee of it being kept. — Huntster (t @ c) 14:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The current map is pretty worthless for those that don't know the county shapes of colorado by heart. I think a bigger scale map showing perhaps the whole state, and a few major cities or something would be significantly more informative. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Smoke Grenade vs. Tear Gas Canister

NBC, CNN, and witness interviews report a tear gas canister - not a smoke grenade. http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/colorado-theater-scene/ Chrisbrl88 (talk) 12:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Some reports of 2 canistersMantion (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I've only seen tear gas reports (BBC radio) being reported by officials & survivors. GiantSnowman 13:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I've been following the story closely this morning and the so-called "smoke grenade" or "tear gas" has been described in the reports -- often by witnesses who are simply using metaphors to explain what they saw, heard, or in many cases simply what they've heard by hearsay -- in so many ways, it's unclear if it was truly a "smoke grenade" or "tear gas" or what. It's been described in various media reports as a "flash-bang", as tear gas, or some sort of smoke grenade. It may be much better to describe it as what witnesses have generally described as possibly some sort of small explosive device with a smoke or gas aerosol. All sources I've read or heard have used very similar terms, and no reports contradict that sort of phrasing. I'd like for someone here who can describe this in more temperate, accurate language to change the reference to "smoke grenade" or "tear gas" in the opening paragraph to reflect this. (edit at 10:15 central, I tried changing "tear gas" in the opening paragraph to "a canister that released some kind of gas or smoke" to reflect language from "Aurora 'Dark Knight' Shooting Suspect Identified: James Holmes" from abc.go.com, By PIERRE THOMAS (@PierreTABC) , RICHARD ESPOSITO, MATTHEW MOSK (@mattmosk) , JACK DATE and JASON RYAN @JasonRyanABC)-- and Ill try to properly footnote this. July 20, 2012 -- Ok I tried to change the sentence and reference this URL: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/aurora-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-identified-james-holmes/story?id=16818889 and add this sentence: "The gunman then deployed a canister that released some kind of gas or smoke before opening fire, killing 12 and injuring at least 50 - among them a six year old." -- but I can't due to an "edit conflict" -- so someone who knows better what to do, please make this or a similar change. User:Ssc (talk) 12:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If we are using "tear gas" then, in the Warner Brothers' reaction, "...where gangster characters tear through a theater screen..." the verb "tear" should be changed to "rip." (Also 1st edit! Hi Wiki Community.) Phreshbreth (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

License plates

I heard that two cars had license places from Tennessee. Just update, Sorry if has been posted. UsefulWikipedia (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes they had proof that the plates were from there.UsefulWikipedia (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"thought to be the worst mass shooting in the US since Virginia Tech"

What does "worst" mean? Most people killed? If that's the case then surely this is easily verifiable and "thought to" is inappropriate. The source isn't very clear on it. - filelakeshoe 12:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that is fluff and the sources are unclear. I would avoid at this point that kind of thing until the sources stabilize. I mean this happened like 5 hours ago. --Cerejota (talk) 13:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Fluff or not, this seems like a fairly clear claim and seems to be referenced. --John (talk) 13:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

except 13 died in Fort hood shooting, compared to 12 in this as currently reported. So ive removed for now, maybe later once all the figures are completely confirmed it might be worth putting something like that. But not at this stage as figures continue to change. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not clear - "thought to be" without agent is passive voice abuse, and it's not clear what is meant by "worst", is this most people killed, most people injured, killed + injured, or some guy's opinion? - filelakeshoe 13:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Why the reference to Virginia Tech? Is it necessary? --Possum4all (talk) 15:35, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Relevance of Mitt Romney?

In all reality, why is Mitt Romney's opinion on the matter relevant? We could put the opinion of the Governor of Colorado, Hillary Clinton, the Pope, LeBron James, or any 'important' person. 192.91.173.42 (talk) 13:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If a reliable source has provided another person's reponse, feel free to include that as well. GiantSnowman 13:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

In the interests of balance Romney should be quoted too and the media saw it notable enough to state his response. There should of course be other reaction too. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

This sort of section is standard. As to LeBron James, no, but if the Colorado Rockies cancelled a game or held a ceremony, that would likely be relevant. Basically, the info is there for those interested, but can be skipped by those who aren't. If you aren't interested, skip reading it. -- Zanimum (talk) 13:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with 192. Obama is the elected representative of the country where this happened, Perlmutter represents the district, Warner Brothers represents their film. All relevant. Romney has nothing to do with the story. This isn't an election debate. There's no need for "balance". InedibleHulk (talk) 15:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Notability of victims

Krford has repeatedly removed references to Jessica Redfield, a sportswriter that was tweeting from the theatre until the film started. It's relevant curiousity of our digital age, and for that reason, it seems relevant. Previously, she escapes Toronto Eaton Centre#2012 shooting, another shooting in a public area. Opinions? -- Zanimum (talk) 13:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If a reliable source mentions one of the victims may be a person of (some) note, or that they were at least present, then so should we. Escaping another shooting is interesting but only trivia. GiantSnowman 13:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I really don't think she is notable enough to be on this article. United States Man (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Her tweets have been the subject of news coverage in Canada, the United States, and Britain. -- Zanimum (talk) 13:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

US Man - I have reverted you - we do not decide if she is notable enough, reliable sources do. GiantSnowman 13:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Does she have a wiki page? United States Man (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There's a subtle difference between 'notable enough for a standalone article' and 'notable enough to be mentioned'. GiantSnowman 14:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:09, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so what's the concensus? It seems the concensus is that there doesn't have to be a Wikipedia article on someone to justify mentioning their actions in a notable situation, but is it agreed that her tweeting is relevant enough for the article, given the media coverage of it? There's hundreds of articles now about her, apparently she's also the first confirmed victim. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Her real name is Jessica Ghawi. Jessica Redfield was her pen name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.7.156 (talk) 17:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Once again, do you have a source? (probably not) United States Man (talk) 17:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, USMan? Try Googling. There's 1750 references in Google News to her, currently. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well then a source needs to be put on here. A google search is NOT a reliable source. United States Man (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Terrorist attack

Is this terrorist attack? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.176.154.204 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"FBI [... said no terrorism link had been established". GiantSnowman 13:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Why not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.176.154.204 (talk) 13:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No idea, I'm sure more details will be forthcoming with time. GiantSnowman 14:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Describing things as a terroist attack is a gray area. The FBI is using it to mean that it is not associated with a known terror group, or being done for political motivation (as far as is known). However that means that "terrorism" is restricted to motive and not method, which is somewhat ambiguous/confusing. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

By definition, it most likely fits the description of "domestic terrorism". But it's unlikely that a major terrorist group such as Al Qaeda was involved. Though right now, it's all speculation. We need to let the police and FBI do their research. WTF? (talk) 14:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree, it certainly appears to match the definition of a terrorist attack, but that isn't for us to decide. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Number Killed

Sources are now reporting the count at 14. Should this be reflected upon the article? Piandcompany (talk) 13:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

See above section...reports are between 12 and 15, with 12 being the currently reported figure by most places. — Huntster (t @ c) 13:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Batman Massacre

The killings are also being called "The Batman Massacre" should this be added to the article? --Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 14:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If it's mentioned in a reliable source... GiantSnowman 14:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That's the stupidest name i've heard. United States Man (talk) 14:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose any reference to batman being put in the first sentence as an alternative description, but if there are a lot of sources using similar such terms it might be worth including in an media reaction section. But nnot in the intro. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That's not for us to decide, really. Should the media settle on a name like "Dark Knight massacre", we would most definitely include it prominently in the lead. The only reason not to do so is because it's too early to tell. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• I believe the name "Dark Knight massacre" is far more widely used in the news media. Following my request, it has been created as a redirect to help people looking for more information after reading one of the many online sources referring to the shooting as "Dark Knight massacre". But even though many news articles call it that, I don't believe it warrants mention in the article, for now. There is no "official" name for the shooting, so the current generic title is perfectly fine. Only if and when after a couple of weeks the media appear to settle on one or more names for the shooting, we can then discuss including them in the article lead. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Fox News, BBC and CNN, specifically, are calling it the "Batman Massacre." --Petercorless (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

And ABC too. -- Luke (Talk) 15:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, then create a redirect from Batman massacre. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No, not a redirect. If you want this in the article or as a redirect then list the actual sources. You can't source live TV. United States Man (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

As you can see, the redirects have already been created. They are highly useful for the many people coming to Wikipedia from those news sources which refer to the incident as 'Batman massacre' or 'Dark Knight massacre'. These two names appear to be the most commonly used, and they should probably be included in the intro. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well that comment eas a little late. That redirect was created more than 2 hours ago. United States Man (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You're looking for sources calling the incident 'Batman massacre' or 'Dark Knight massacre'? There's plenty for both variants. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 17:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

World Reaction

"In France, the shooting is major news. It's the top story on leading newspaper Le Monde's website and also top national broadcaster TF1's site and also on cable news network iTele and BFM TV's sites. It was also the leading story on public TV network France 3's 12 p.m. news program." http://entertainment.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12855087-dark-knight-rises-paris-premiere-scrapped-following-us-shootings?lite Jonathan.richmond (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a media coverage/reaction section for the article. which could include where some of the other descriptions for this shooting get mentioned if they are reliably sources. It is dominating the news here in the UK too, so international media reaction would have plenty of notable stuff to include. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If you think it should be in the article then I agree 100%. United States Man (talk) 14:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:BEBOLD and go for it. GiantSnowman 14:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Let's not start the usual nonsense like "the King of Foobar expressed condolences". Almost every nation does it, it's inevitable, and it's not exceptional or notable. Krford (talk) 14:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. Everybody and their mother expresses their condolences simply because that's expected protocol in our times of instant global news. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 14:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

@Krford - I don't think we were going to include every last nation that expressed condolences, just the more notable ones (such as France). United States Man (talk) 14:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You're not getting Krford's point. What makes anyone (including e.g. President Obama) expressing their condolences notable for this particular incident when they routinely express their condolences for every single incident like this? --213.196.216.194 (talk) 14:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

obama/romney I would say should be included, as their reactions (or lack thereof) could be inherently notable . (See how reactions to say 9/11, katrina, other shootings have been spun for political purposes etc). For other things (mayor of NY, random leaders of other states/countries) I would agree they should be held to a minimum unless they are in some way more notable. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should see if we can get consensus on a moratorium on updating the reactions section for an hour or two. There are so many reactions coming out right now (especially with Obama speaking) that it could cause a lot of problems with edit conflicts. Anyone in favor? Chrisbrl88 (talk) 14:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

With the exception of maintaining what's currently there, I agree. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 15:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have something like "The leaders of various countries, including (country),<ref> (country),<ref> and (country),<ref> expressed their condolences Friday." Thoughts? - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 15:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Until Romney leads a country (or relevant state, district or town), his opinion is irrelevant, aside from the unrelated upcoming election. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I kind of have to agree here. It seems like Romney was added to balance out the statement from Obama. Election year or not, Wikipedia is not required to provide equal time to candidates, and his inclusion seems out of place. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

video

video of the incident/aftermath is being shown by several major news sites, should we include a link? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No, that is not needed because it has nothing to do with the shootings. Its probably just video of the police running around and victims still trying to figure out what happened. And, please use capital letters when you start sentences or people might think you are lacking common sense. United States Man (talk) 14:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There are many different videos of the aftermath anyway which dont seem to add to much (although an acknowledgement of the existance of these clips, if there isn't one already would be a good idea). FM [ talk to me | show contributions ]  15:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Mayor of New York comments notable ?

The mayor of new york has commented, with more than mere expressions of sympathy for the incident.[8] would that be worth including in the reaction section and possibly using it to link to an article on the US gun debate? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds mostly like a political response to me, and not all that notable. The NYC police commissioner's comments regarding NYC police watching over screenings for copycat crimes might be more notable, though. WTF? (talk) 14:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Lack of / need for emergency warning

I strongly believe there is a need for a section relating to something like this. It is interesting (and disturbing) that the moviegoers thought the violence was part of the movie premiere's action or something. It makes one wonder how warning could have been issued to the people in the theater (whether it was or not). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris.rider81 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

What do reliable sources have to say on the matter? GiantSnowman 14:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's policy on this. Chrisbrl88 (talk) 15:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm excited to see discussion from some people on this! Chrisbrl88, I'm actually aware of that policy, but I think that if this article is to have any value, it should do what so many other mature Wikipedia articles do and move beyond what I like to call "emotional voyeurism," which is where I believe this article currently resides. What I mean is that, for example, having a comment about what the NYC mayor said about the shooting... that just doesn't seem valuable (I might even take it as possible political propaganda). But I see an emergency exit door being propped open without any kind of emergency response/mitigation effect as at least worthy of mention! I don't want to step on toes or argue here (which is why I'm engaging the community via the talk page), but if some appropriate sources can be found to at least mention this, would everyone agree that it's worth inclusion into the article? chris.rider81 (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Find reliable sources that talk about it, including talking about its relevance, and it can be added. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 16:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Good sourcing on the propping-open thing there. You'd need sources on the relevance of any alarm system (working or not working or not there) to add anything on that, but this was a good start. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 16:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Added "Eagan" as suspect's middle name

There have already been a number of spurious web articles about Denver-area "James Holmes" targeting entirely innocent people with the same first and last names. I saw one irresponsible blogger tried to point to an entirely innocent person's Facebook page. He was rightly lambasted by feedback and pulled down the link. But, to head off such craziness, I am adding "Eagan" as the published middle name of the suspect to ensure other people do not make dreadful confusion about entirely innocent individuals. ([9]) --Petercorless (talk) 15:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed BritishWatcher (talk) 15:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

And Brian Ross of ABC News apparently also misidentified a wrong "Jim Holmes" of Aurora, CO.[10] Hold on to your hats, folks. Without any direct proof one way or the other, people have already tried to blame Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party. We might need to create a section about misidentification and witch-hunting if this goes on. --Petercorless (talk)

Resemblance to Bane?

Is it important to note that the gas mask resembles the main antagonist of the film? SwimFellow (talk) 15:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we need to keep speculation out of Wikipedia. --Petercorless (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Source it and include it, or don't source it and don't. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 15:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to find some reliable sources on the resemblance. -- Luke (Talk) 16:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I heard Matt Lauer say something about it, but it's a stretch. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 16:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is a comment by one of the moviegoers. "Holmes was caught by police in the parking lot of the movie theater shortly after the shooting still dressed in his riot gear, an outfit eerily similar to a villain in "The Dark Knight Rises." I am not sure that's enough to say it's ok yet. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 17:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Rampage by Uwe Boll

I don't want to indicate anything, and admittedly this can be a mere coincidence, but Holmes' outfit, as it is described by the media, reminds me of the one worn by Bill Williamson in Uwe Boll's Rampage, especially because gas masks and helmets, other than bulletproof vests, are rarely parts of a rampage killers equipment. Also, this is the second such incident that is more or less connected to a Batman movie, even though in the other case, the Dendermonde nursery attack, this connection has proven to be unfounded. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC))

I see what you mean, but until reliable sources confirm any inspiration / even mention the conncection, neither should we. GiantSnowman 16:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Should Only Positive Responses Be Posted?

If a politician uses events like these to advance his political opinions, should that also be noted? A minor Republican politician in Texas is saying this incident is the result of attacks on Judeo-Christian belief systems. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html?1342794304. He's a minor character, but in 2007, Gingrich said the same thing about the Virginia Tech shooting, and he was a somewhat more major player. TychaBrahe (talk) 16:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Should not be included unless notable in some way, just like the positive ones. If this launches a larger gun control debate, or society debate that is widely covered and itself notable, then some of these types of things would be included. Not yet though. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

And if that politician becomes more prominent in years to come, the news story about his comments will likely still be available (unless the Huffington Post goes out of business). I agree that there's no need to add the comments of some random person who has no connection to the event itself. --ΨΦorg (talk) 16:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

John Stamos

Mr. Stamos is much more notable than and as equally irrelevant as Mitt Romney. I see no reason why his reaction should be excluded, if Romney's is allowed. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Point noted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 16:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Personal attack noted. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 16:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Poor grasp of what constitutes a personal attack noted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 16:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You accused him of indulging in pointy behavior, deliberately and dishonestly dismissing the validity of his argument. At the very least, you're being highly uncivil here and not contributing to a constructive discussion. Cut it out. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Petty bickering noted. GiantSnowman 16:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Incorrect. Hulk was engaging in WP:POINTy behavior in adding the Stamos thing, as Hulk tried to remove Romney, then started adding Stamos with comments about him being more important than Romney. Admittedly, that someone is being WP:POINTy doesn't mean they don't have a point. I disagree with Hulk on this one, but that doesn't mean I dismiss their argument, it means I counter it. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm 100% not personally offended and 100% guilty of being pointy. It's cool. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Actually, reccomend you add the reaction from someone who was in the movie in question. Also, the presumptive nominee of the major opposition party is relevant to any event of national significance. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 16:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Mitt Romney is running for President of the USA. John Stamos is running for Mr Twitter USA. WWGB (talk) 16:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

But what does the election have to do with a shooting? Everyone else quoted has some relation to this event. Romney has a relation to Obama, who speaks as the current President of the United States, not a candidate. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Gun control is an incredibly political topic. GiantSnowman 16:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If anyone can find the official reaction of the NRA, that'd be nice. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 16:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Theater versus theatre

I disagree with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Spelling#English spelling comparison chart that theater is the US way of referring to the building. Both are used in my experience. In this specific case, I feel that we should change theater to theatre throughout because it took place in Century Theatres. Wouldn't a building operated by Century Theatres be a Theatre not a Theater? I feel that in a case where the regional spelling is not strict we should go with the way it is described by the company that owns it. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

A fair point well made. GiantSnowman 16:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) The actual name of the building is called a "theater" in American English. In my opinion, I think we should leave it as "theater" if it is describing the actual building. -- Luke (Talk) 16:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm about as 'merican as you can get, but I probably refer to the building as a theatre 9 times out of 10. At the same time, I did some searches and sources like Fox news were referring to it as a theater and theater 9. Perhaps the most appropriate change would be "Century 16 Movie Theater"→"Century 16 Movie Theatre"? Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The actual name of the company name is "Century Theatres", however we should use language consistent with the location. I'm not too sure how much MOS:TIES goes into this, but I would think most people in the USA use "theater", according to Movie theater#Spelling and alternative terms. -- Luke (Talk) 17:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Congratulate me, I scan both versions as correct. No idea how that happened; "colour" and "labour" still look wrong to me. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment regarding Romney (and Stamos).

Is Mitt Romney's reaction relevant to this story, or is he merely included for political reasons pertaining to an unrelated upcoming election? Also, is John Stamos' reaction relevant? He is arguably far more famous. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Firstly, "far more famous" is POV. Secondly, if enough reliable sources are reporting the reaction of X, then we should also report the reaction of X, whether that be politicians, actors or the man on the street. GiantSnowman 16:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
  • True. So far the only source we have for Stamos reaction was a Twitter link. Find a more reliable source. Also, political reasons pertaining to the upcoming election are relevant to this story, per what seems to me to be WP:COMMONSENSE. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 16:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Gotta love the American media circus. Unless there is a meta source that discusses the notability of politicians' and celebrities' comments in the context of this particular incident, none of them should be included. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 16:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It is newsworthy the shooting has put off U.S. Presidential election campaign activities. It may even be newsworthy to quote each of the major party candidates. But other celebrities are generally not relevant if they are merely expressing opinions. --Petercorless (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed with Peter's above comment. Note that if this happened in Canada or the UK, the Leader of the Opposition would be quoted. For all intents and purposes, within a Republican system, Romney fills the same role. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Unless a major candidate stated that they had a change in policy opinion as a result of this, I would not find their reactions encyclopedic, even if they are newsworthy. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I highly disagree. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Exactly right, Ryan. The difference between newsworthy and encyclopedic completely eludes many editors though. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 17:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• I feel that the reactions included in this version are appropriate. I don't feel that more (Mitt Romney or John Stamos) should be included. I do feel when the president of a country comments on something it is notable enough for inclusion. Ed Purlmutter's reaction is relevant because he represents the district. Janet Napolitano's reaction is relevant because it is similar to a terrorist attack and an aspect of homeland security. I would reformat the Warner Bros reaction and the NYCPD reaction into a new section. While these are reactions, they are relevant as actions taken as a result of the attack, not as statements. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wikipedia should use reliable sources to verify statements, but not model its presentation after them. US news is obsessed with the election and every mention of Obama is therefore juxtaposed with one of Romney. Obama is the current President of the United States and speaks in that capacity here, not as a candidate. This is an encyclopedia article about a mass murder, not a pissing contest about who condemns it more. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• If president obamas is there, Romneys should be for balance, also the media have covered what romney says. I put on skynews here in the UK a few hours ago and they had it at a romney campaign event waiting for him to speak on the matter. His comments are notable. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Nope. They may be newsworthy, but we are not news and not everything that is deemed newsworthy has a place here on Wikipedia. --213.196.216.194 (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Sources are gold, so find them or you cannot list either one. United States Man (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

  There ARE sources for Romney. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:09, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Comment: I just re-added it again. I'll happily abide by consensus if it goes against, but it should stay as is until this discussion is complete, IMO. This per WP:BRD, since the Bold is the removal and the Revert is the re-addition (as the initial addition was uncontested for a while). - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:09, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Condense all reactions. I find the detailed inclusion of politicians' condolatory boilerplate statements in general to be unnecessary, because they are invariably made after high-profile events like this in more or less the same manner. At most, I'd say something like: "President Obama and other U.S. political leaders made statements deploring the shooting and extending their condolences." Anything more is really not interesting unless it is somehow unusual or particularly reported.  Sandstein  17:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone located any sources for Stamos other than Twitter. United States Man (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The one I originally added it with was some celebrity news site. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That might be okay if we could find more, but I don't think it can stand on just that. United States Man (talk) 17:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the media is requesting comments from Romney can be encyclopedic, and the responses from Romney relative the media requests as well. But the fact that Romney has made statements regarding the shootings, is not relevant to the primary event here, but only to the election event. _→AzaToth 17:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Having gone away for a little bit, I have a compromise suggestion: let's have subsections in the Reaction section. Subsection 1: reactions by related gov't officials, including Obama (- the part about his campaign stops), Perlmutter, Napolitano, and to be expanded by adding reactions from the Colorado Governor and Senators if any, etc. Subsection 2: reactions by other political figures, including Obama's campaign-stop info, Romney, NYC police commissioner, foreign heads of state, etc. Subsection 3: related entertainment reactions, like Warner Bros., various theaters showing it, etc. Thoughts? - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Note I added a commented-out note at the top of the Reactions section pointing people at this RFC. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• I like Sandstein's version. Obama and other political figures. Is Napolitano a political figure or would her reaction be listed separately? Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
  • A little of both. There's a part of her statement that involves committing the FBI and other such things to helping the investigation, which is an official reaction on the part of DHS to get involved. But her "condolences" stuff would be included in the "political figures," in this version. I could work with that. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No to both. Romney is a private citizen who is temporarily more newsworthy than usual (primarily in one country), who has no connection to the area or to the movie, and I don't see his reaction as being any more appropriate than that of the chairman of General Electric, or Rerun from What's Happening!! (or John Stamos, for that matter). And adding John Stamos's reaction is an obviously bad idea, unless it is paired with Bob Saget's. --Bongwarrior (talk) 18:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• I agree with Sandstein in spirit, but I would go further than that. I would tend to leave out the political reactions entirely since they do not illuminate the subject at all. The reaction from Warner Brothers should be included and the rest of this section should be culled or at least dramatically condensed. causa sui (talk) 18:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Guns and Ammunition used by Shooter

NBC News reported on the weapons and ammunition used by James Holmes, the shooter.

"Officials told NBC News that the gunman had four weapons: two handguns, made by Glock, a Remington 870 single-barrel shotgun and a Smith and Wesson AR-15 assault-style rifle. The weapons can accommodate large ammunition clips, but authorities haven't said what kind of magazines were used."

NBC News Justice and National Security Correspondent Pete Williams said that Holmes brought three weapons into the theater, leaving one of the Glock handguns in his car. Additionally, Williams added, "Witnesses say he used the shotgun first, then picked up the rifle and resumed with that."

Can anyone find other sources of this information? --Mattge3 (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

During the press conference televised by CNN it was just said that he used the shotgun, the AR-15 and at least one of his two .40-caliber Glock pistols. (Lord Gøn (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC))

Mitt Romney speech

It's time now to include Mitt Romney's speech.

Please see the discussion above. United States Man (talk) 17:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Even I think that's a ridiculous suggestion, anon. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Denver Batman massacre deletion talk, fyi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2012_July_20#Denver_Batman_massacre Herp Derp (talk) 17:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Possible Explosive Device Booby Trap

Device in the suspect's apartment described as numerous(1-2 liter?) soda bottles wired together.

Source? -- Zanimum (talk) 17:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

We cannot include things without a source. United States Man (talk) 17:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Was mentioned on the 9news live broadcast, not aware of an article source.

one source here: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21118947/police-search-apartment-suspected-gunman-deadly-aurora-shooting

also http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/07/colorado-shooting-suspect-neighbor-he-seemed-like-a-normal-kid.html last two paragraphs. _→AzaToth 17:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Shooter Image

Images have been released to the media, courtesy of the U of CO, where Holmes was previously a student. Anybody working on getting one up here? --DimentalLabs (talk) 17:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

May not be in line with policy to use an image from the university. However, since he's in police custody and presumably hard to photograph, the rule might not apply. --NYKevin 17:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The image was released to the general press, so I'm not thinking it will be an issue. However, I don't have much experience in the matter of image uploads so I will defer my opinion to someone better acquainted with the policy. --DimentalLabs (talk) 17:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to the image, and its release? I'd like to investigate its copyright status. But the short version is that unless the release is very specific about releasing copyright, it is presumptively non-free. --NYKevin 17:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

[11]. Huffingtonpost --Stryn (talk) 17:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Images taken by news sources or found on suspect's facebook etc are copyright and not acceptable for use in wikipedia. If a mugshot is taken, that would be free of copyright but has the problem with WP:MUG. How to display pics of suspects/victims has been extensively debased on the Trayvon Martin page, and it was determined that the policy supports a single non-free image of a dead person, as there is no way to obtain a new image of them. For a suspect, a mughshot may be acceptable if it is not obviously a mugshot or otherwise prejudicial due to WP:MUG In the absense of that, no pic is allowed. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It's looking like the AP got it first, most other news agencies are crediting University of Colorado through the Associated Press. There's an image of him in this story here, that's about the best I can do. --DimentalLabs (talk) 17:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I think we should just put the non-free one up and say that it's hard to photograph a person in custody. That won't apply once the shooter goes to trial or something, but it'll last for at least a few weeks. --NYKevin 17:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There are many things that is is hard to take a photo of. If that was the standard, then the entire copyright policy would be much less useful. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think we should avoid putting a picture of him up at all until formal charges are filed at the very least. Per the spirit of WP:BLPCRIME. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

A picture of the place, on the other hand, would be nice. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 18:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

2012 Aurora shooting → 2012 Aurora, Colorado shooting – The city should be followed by the state name per WP:USPLACE. Thechased (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose That guideline is about articles about settlements, not events. The title is long enough already. --NYKevin 17:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The page has already been moved so i'm closing the discussion. United States Man (talk) 17:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It should be reopened, since the move was REVERTED. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Could someone please do something about this page? I was in the middle of replying and its ended up on a new talk page lol Talk:2012_Aurora,_Colorado_shooting BritishWatcher (talk) 17:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

 Fixed: The page has been redirected here. --NYKevin 17:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support - There is more than on Aurora in the U.S. so the state should be added to distinguish from other Auroras. United States Man (talk) 17:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Anyone should feel free to reopen the discussion, but please don't move the article until there's a consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 17:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Editing and move rights are tied together, it seems. If you lock an article down, so that it can't be moved by anyone but a sysops, you're also blocking the page from edits by anyone but a sysops. We'll have to rely on trusting others in this situation. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's quite possible to move protect a page. But there's no need unless everyone is going to fight over it. --NYKevin 17:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• support there are many aurora's, many of which are more famous/well known than this one. While they have not neccisarily had shootings in them it is unlikely that this event will become known as the "aurora shootings" like "columbine shootings" are. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - if the article title is to be changed it should be to something that references the incident, like 2012 Aurora movie theater shooting, rather than simply adding the state. No other Aurora has had a shooting incident like this one worthy of an article BritishWatcher (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Oppose the move. "Aurora" is sufficient until the press can figure out a WP:COMMONNAME. The Colorado thing is in the lede. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Further comment: Find me another notable shooting in 2012 in another town named Aurora, and I will change my vote. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3)

I've fully protected the page per WP:WRONGVERSION now. _→AzaToth 17:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose existing title is sufficient, nothing is gained by lengthening it. Ronnotel (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support. More than one Aurora in the U.S. Shark96z (talk · contribs) 18:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support - Years from now more specificity will be helpful to readers. ArishiaNishi (talk) 18:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Numerical disparity in the lead

Resolved

The lead was recently changed [12] to say that there were 13 deaths. This disagrees with the infobox and the victims section at the moment, but cites a source. Should we update the other numbers to match? --NYKevin 17:32, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source then go for it. United States Man (talk) 17:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg Reaction

Is it worth including New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg's reaction? It was more of a call for action than the other more sympathetic reactions.

During his weekly appearance on WROS, Bloomberg said, "You know, soothing words are nice, but maybe it’s time that the two people who want to be President of the United States stand up and tell us what they are going to do about it, because this is obviously a problem across the country. And everybody always says, ‘Isn’t it tragic,’ and you know, we look for was the guy, as you said, maybe trying to recreate Batman. I mean, there are so many murders with guns every day, it’s just got to stop. And instead of the two people – President Obama and Governor Romney – talking in broad things about they want to make the world a better place, okay, tell us how. And this is a real problem. No matter where you stand on the Second Amendment, no matter where you stand on guns, we have a right to hear from both of them concretely, not just in generalities – specifically what are they going to do about guns? I can tell you what we do here in New York. The State Legislature passed the toughest gun laws – some states may say no. That’s okay, what do you want to do? And maybe every Governor should stand up. But in the end, it is really the leadership at a national level, which is whoever is going to be President of the United States starting next January 1st – what are they going to do about guns?" --Mattge3 (talk) 17:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree a sentence from the NY mayor should be included, it could then link to the article on Gun politics in the United States BritishWatcher (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No, we can't have every politician's reaction on here. Plus, he really has nothing to do with it. He is in NYC and this happened in Colorado. United States Man (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Not a Medical Student

While the San Francisco Chronicle initially reported that the suspect is a medical student, he is in fact a Neuroscience PhD candidate at the Graduate School of the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus. Since he is not associated with the School of Medicine located at the same campus, he is not a "medical student". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.236.69.177 (talk) 17:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I copy pasted this from Talk:2012 Aurora, Colorado shooting since someone posted it there without realising that the move-revert had occurred. - Jorgath (talk) ^(contribs) 17:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

9GAG

I've seen a few references to 9gag. What is the relationship between the suspect and 9gag? Also I just heard from the police cheif Oats that there has been social media pranks. Evidently someone called a tv station pretending to be the police cheif. Should any of that be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.10.97.189 (talk) 18:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is the 9gag connection. I would say it is not appropriate for the article as a WP:HOAX unless it gains significant coverage or is determined to not be a hoax. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/9gag-users-posts-egging-on-shooter-hoax_n_1689765.html?utm_hp_ref=technology&ir=Technology Gaijin42 (talk) 18:09, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Louie Gohmert

Louie Gohmert's comments on the shooting are not really about the shooting at all; he is using the shooting merely as an excuse for a disjointed rant about religious persecution. The article shouldn't be used to provide a soapbox for Gohmert's irrelevant commentary. 71.110.102.77 (talk) 18:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)